Ayanokouji Full Strength Contextualized

[Doggo]

I would rather verify those scans first because it was Huntsman who made that claim

I'm not really sure if his claim is true either.
I think it would benefit both sides by clearing things up

 

[Zefra3011]

Is this gonna change any profile btw?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Btw, it would help evaluations if summary posts could be made.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Btw, it would help evaluations if summary posts could be made.

Here

 

[Doggo]

Btw, it would help evaluations if summary posts could be made.

Ok:

-Ayanokoji is a unreliable narrator. This makes the usage of his narration dubious with how often he lies to himself. A good example would be him claiming to have went to USA only for it to later be revealed he never left the White room which is located in Japan
-Said statements themselves get contradicted by actual physical showings. For example Ayanokoji claimed that Manabu is capable of one-shotting him, but Nagumo, someone repeatedly considered to Manabu's equal by themselves and other characters got one shotted by Ayanokoji. Albert who Ayanokoji claims to be physicslly superior to him is weaker than Hosen, with Albert needing to ambush him with a group to beat. Said Hosen was unable to escape Ayanokoji's grip that was injured and Hosen grew to respect Koji's power.


Edit: More examples would include Ayanokoji stating Ichika is physically weaker than Ryuen's gang. But prior to this, we see a injured Ichika manhandling Suzune and Ibuki. The latter is one of Ryuen's strongest members and the former is confident in facing Sudo who is physically relative to Ryuen.

 

[Buzzflightyear]

Btw, it would help evaluations if summary posts could be made.

Easiest summary is that Ayanokouji and other White room students do not out scale the rest of the verse physically because they have dozens of statements where it states it, and to make sure there was no confusion or a "that was never said" situation, I listed multiple versions from online to the physical book version. Then I listed a scaling chain with every feat and statement relevant to my point that provides proof that the verse is not separated by AP/Durability, but by LS, skill level, intelligence and stamina/endurance.

This verse is mainly human level to begin with so a AP scaling chain was never even needed. Yes characters can be one shot but every character can be one shot in this verse, just like in real life. The only person with consistent statements that prove he won't be one shot by even the strongest punches inverse is Albert, due to Ayanokouji who is viewed as hardest punches hits him as hard as he can and does shallow damage, and had to use pressure points to cause him pain and beat him . This narrative was made from a headcanons narrative that has built from people who don't read the story but debate the characters in cross verse matches

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I would rather verify those scans first because it was Huntsman who made that claim

I'm not really sure if his claim is true either.
I think it would benefit both sides by clearing things up

Huntsman said he will respond about OTL vs Fan TL later when he gets home

 

[XxZetsuxX]

This verse is mainly human level to begin with so a AP scaling chain was never even needed.

I'm about to crash out

 

[Doggo]

Ok:

-Ayanokoji is a unreliable narrator. This makes the usage of his narration dubious with how often he lies to himself. A good example would be him claiming to have went to USA only for it to later be revealed he never left the White room which is located in Japan
-Said statements themselves get contradicted by actual physical showings. For example Ayanokoji claimed that Manabu is capable of one-shotting him, but Nagumo, someone repeatedly considered to Manabu's equal by themselves and other characters got one shotted by Ayanokoji. Albert who Ayanokoji claims to be physicslly superior to him is weaker than Hosen, with Albert needing to ambush him with a group to beat. Said Hosen was unable to escape Ayanokoji's grip that was injured and Hosen grew to respect Koji's power.


Edit: More examples would include Ayanokoji stating Ichika is physically weaker than Ryuen's gang. But prior to this, we see a injured Ichika manhandling Suzune and Ibuki. The latter is one of Ryuen's strongest members and the former is confident in facing Sudo who is physically relative to Ryuen.

Easiest summary is that Ayanokouji and other White room students do not out scale the rest of the verse physically because they have dozens of statements where it states it so there was no confusion or a "that was never said" situation, even to the point I listed multiple versions from online to the physical book version. Then I listed a scaling chain with every feat and statement relevant to my point that provides proof that the verse is not separated by AP/Durability, but by LS, skill level, intelligence and stamina/endurance.

This verse is mainly human level to begin with so a AP scaling chain was never even needed. Yes characters can be one shot but every character can be one shot in this verse, just like in real life. The only person with consistent statements that prove he won't be one shot by even the strongest punches inverse is Albert, due to Ayanokouji who is viewed as hardest punches hits him as hard as he can and does shallow damage, and had to use pressure points to cause him pain and beat him . This narrative was made from a headcanons narrative that has built from people who don't read the story but debate the characters in cross verse matches

The summaries

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Ok:

-Ayanokoji is a unreliable narrator. This makes the usage of his narration dubious with how often he lies to himself. A good example would be him claiming to have went to USA only for it to later be revealed he never left the White room which is located in Japan
-Said statements themselves get contradicted by actual physical showings. For example Ayanokoji claimed that Manabu is capable of one-shotting him, but Nagumo, someone repeatedly considered to Manabu's equal by themselves and other characters got one shotted by Ayanokoji. Albert who Ayanokoji claims to be physicslly superior to him is weaker than Hosen, with Albert needing to ambush him with a group to beat. Said Hosen was unable to escape Ayanokoji's grip that was injured and Hosen grew to respect Koji's power.


Edit: More examples would include Ayanokoji stating Ichika is physically weaker than Ryuen's gang. But prior to this, we see a injured Ichika manhandling Suzune and Ibuki. The latter is one of Ryuen's strongest members and the latter is confident in facing Sudo who is physically relative to Ryuen.

Is Ayanokoji the narrator of the entire series? Because if so, I would question literally everything he says and not just scaling related stuff. That being said...

This verse is mainly human level to begin with so a AP scaling chain was never even needed.

I will preface this by saying I haven't rechecked this verse for a while. But... If feats exists showing otherwise, then you are kinda cooked there.

 

[Doggo]

Is Ayanokoji the narrator of the entire series? Because if so, I would question literally everything he says and not just scaling related stuff. That being said...

The novel is mostly narrated by him. We sometimes see the POVs of other characters but they contradict everything he says

His Ichika statement for example falters because in Suzune's own POV, she and Ibuki were getting speed blizt by a weaken Ichika

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

The novel is mostly narrated by him. We see the POVs of other characters by they contradict everything he says

His Ichika statement for example falters because in Suzune's own POV, she and Ibuki were getting speed blizt by a weaken Ichika

So when he describes superhuman feats, how can we take him seriously if his POV is blatantly wrong seemingly for every scaling stuff?

 

[Doggo]

So when he describes superhuman feats, how can we take him seriously if his POV is blatantly wrong seemingly for every scaling stuff?

This is a really good argument, but I think this warrants a seperate thread. For now, we are disccusing if other characters should scale to Ayanokoji or that the verse is only human level as OP claims

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

This is a really good argument, but I think this warrants a seperate thread. For now, we are disccusing if other characters should scale to Ayanokoji or that verse is only human level as OP claims

I feel is extremely related to this thread, as by your summary, that is precisely the central point in contention. Can we take him seriously at all?

Edit: Because otherwise, then the conclusion would be the entire verse is inconsistent in its portrayal, and we kinda need to reexamine everything anyways.

 

[Doggo]

I feel is extremely related to this thread, as by your summary, that is precisely the central point in contention. Can we take him seriously at all?

I think feats narrated by people thats not him or are confirmed by other characters are valid

If there is one thing consistent about his dialouge, he nevers lies about what other people are saying. The only lies are from his thoughts or his own verbal words

 

[Doggo]

So feats like Koenji's jump or the bone-breaking feat are fine

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I think feats narrated by people thats not him or are confirmed by other characters are valid

This is why I asked if he was the narrator for everything

Which parts of OP involve narration given by other characters?

 

[Doggo]

This is why I asked if he was the narrator for everything

Which parts of OP involve narration given by other characters?

He is primary narrator. But we sometimes see the POVs of other chars

I think all of OP's scans are Ayanokoji's narration

 

[Buzzflightyear]

I feel is extremely related to this thread, as by your summary, that is precisely the central point in contention. Can we take him seriously at all?

Edit: Because otherwise, then the conclusion would be the entire verse is inconsistent in its portrayal, and we kinda need to reexamine everything anyways.

This was my point, they ignore statements that prove his limits and call it unreliable but will misinterpret statements that make him seem superhuman and the real kicker comes in is when you read the full context, the feat is almost never superhuman or in context with what was described in the scale. That's why I made this broad CRT to give a full picture
Here is the statement: Ayanokouji and Tsukishiro agree that there are Non white room people as talented as white room members. Tsukishiro even says there is talent the white room cant even produce

• Examples with scans:Sakayanaki's intellect, Sudo's athletic ability, Albert's durable body, Manabu Horikita academic , fighting + running and Koenji's prodigious talent, plus more are all non white room members and has shown superior or comparable skill to non white room members.

So when he describes superhuman feats, how can we take him seriously if his POV is blatantly wrong seemingly for every scaling stuff?

This is why I say the verse is human level because narratively no one stands out in AP, but we have direct statements that contradict him in a serious situation examples:

• Ayanokouji's analysis of Shiba punch made him think he had comparable AP to Shiba, then corrected himself and said Shiba hits harder. , (2nd version) , (3rd version book)
• Albert hit Ayanokouji and he said damage would accumulate after letting it happen to gauge his striking power, which means Albert has higher AP and Durability than Ayanokouji, but lost due to not having the experience.
• Albert said Housen has the same AP as Ayanokouji after catching his fist and remembering the fight with ayanokouji.
• Ayanokouji punched Albert in the abdomen with his full strength stating he couldn't hold back not knowing the full extent of his abilites, and said he only dealt "shallow" damage. (Did the same thing to Tsukishiro)

Is Ayanokoji the narrator of the entire series? Because if so, I would question literally everything he says and not just scaling related stuff. That being said...


I will preface this by saying I haven't rechecked this verse for a while. But... If feats exists showing otherwise, then you are kinda cooked there.

They don't. The verse isn't really a combat anime that's why Im confused why they want it to be like grappler Baki when it's mainly psychological and manipulation. Combat is secondary

 

[Zefra3011]

Rather than relying on statements, shouldn't we actually take a look at actual feats?

This CRT is about whether Ayanokouji is superior to anyone (ap, speed, and ls). And I feel we should look at what he does rather than... looking at characters' opinions. Does it matter if Ayanokouji says something but shows something else? Reliable or not, he can't be unreliable on what he DOES.

Like, for starters, we have him blitzing a lot of characters. Even if Ayanokouji is on drugs and says he can't do it... Well, he did.

 

[Doggo]

Rather than relying on statements, shouldn't we actually take a look at actual feats?

This CRT is about whether Ayanokouji is superior to anyone (ap, speed, and ls). And I feel we should look at what he does rather than... looking at characters' opinions. Does it matter if Ayanokouji says something but shows something else? Reliable or not, he can't be unreliable on what he DOES.

Like, for starters, we have him blitzing a lot of characters. Even if Ayanokouji is on drugs and says he can't do it... Well, he did.

This is precisely my point. The actual showings we see contradict what he says.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

This is why I asked if he was the narrator for everything

Which parts of OP involve narration given by other characters?

Btw, Doggo might've made a slight mistake there, not literally everything Koji says is deception for the viewer

Ayanokouji during Y1V1 to Y1V3 had a fake persona that of a normal student, he used plot deception so the viewer saw him as your average student

This falls off after Y1V3 where he now is more reliable as a narrator

---

As for the human level part

The level 5-6 of the white room is considered to be the limit for human development, the beta curriculum is stated to be dimensions above it - Ayanokouji did this

Ayanokouji also broke the bones of 6 fighters as a kid

Ichika who did the level 4 is considered to have inhuman strenght while on the verge of losing consciousness and in a shape she shouldn't be able to move normally

Ichika could also perform this feat which involves her blitzing a student so fast the sound of the hit came later

Takuya also blitzes casually Ichika easily and is better than her in everything

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Rather than relying on statements, shouldn't we actually take a look at actual feats?

This CRT is about whether Ayanokouji is superior to anyone (ap, speed, and ls). And I feel we should look at what he does rather than... looking at characters' opinions. Does it matter if Ayanokouji says something but shows something else? Reliable or not, he can't be unreliable on what he DOES.

Like, for starters, we have him blitzing a lot of characters. Even if Ayanokouji is on drugs and says he can't do it... Well, he did.

But that's a problem here, because Ayanokoji is seemingly unreliable we cannot take his word for it when he's describing his own actions. So the only valid feats would come from other characters narrating... Unless they too are shown to be unreliable.

That's the consequence when the protag and main narrator is straight contradicted.

 

[Doggo]

Btw, Doggo might've made a slight mistake there, not literally everything Koji says is deception for the viewer

Ayanokouji during Y1V1 to Y1V3 had a fake persona that of a normal student, he used plot deception so the viewer saw him as your average student

This falls off after Y1V3 where he now is more reliable as a narrator

---

As for the human level part

The level 5-6 of the white room is considered to be the limit for human development, the beta curriculum is stated to be dimensions above it - Ayanokouji did this

Ayanokouji also broke the bones of 6 fighters as a kid

Ichika who did the level 4 is considered to have inhuman strenght while on the verge of losing consciousness and in a shape she shouldn't be able to move normally

Ichika could also perform this feat which involves her blitzing a student so fast the sound of the hit came later

Takuya also blitzes casually Ichika easily and is better than her in everything

I should have better clarified

When I say Koji lies, its usually about himself and his own words

But he accurately narrates the actual events thst happened so stuff like him watching a character do a feat is ok

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

This falls off after Y1V3 where he now is more reliable as a narrator

So which parts from OP are after this point? @Buzzflightyear

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Huntsman also said for me to include this;

"People are nothing but tools” monologue was a major plot twist in the LN moving from a stereotypical LN protagonist trope into his true self."

 

[Buzzflightyear]

Rather than relying on statements, shouldn't we actually take a look at actual feats?

You can't dismiss statements that contextualize the feat now that it downgrades him after all those days of arguing other statements.

This CRT is about whether Ayanokouji is superior to anyone (ap, speed, and ls). And I feel we should look at what he does rather than... looking at characters' opinions. Does it matter if Ayanokouji says something but shows something else? Reliable or not, he can't be unreliable on what he DOES

Like, for starters, we have him blitzing a lot of characters. Even if Ayanokouji is on drugs and says he can't do it... Well, he did.

I already used this in my CRT as one of the things that is above the rest including his higher kinetic vision. Now that the mods are here you guys are basically agreeing with me now

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I should habe clarified

When I say Koji lies, its usually about himself and his own words

But he accurately narrates the actual events thst happened so stuff like him watching a character do a feat is ok

Nah, that doesn't sit well with me. Either he's reliable or unreliable.

Otherwise, the only conclusion for me is the entire verse is simply inconsistent for the sake of the plot.

 

[Zefra3011]

But that's a problem here, because Ayanokoji is seemingly unreliable we cannot take his word for it when he's describing his own actions. So the only valid feats would come from other characters narrating... Unless they too are shown to be unreliable.

That's the consequence when the protag and main narrator is straight contradicted.

That's fair, but first, two of the calcs I sent (here are the links, I should have sent them before, sorry) use manga and anime for visuals... So... They happened. Unless we want to extend the argument on those...

Second, I think they mean that "unreliable narrator" is for stuff like "X can one-shot me," but after, in the actual fight, Ayanokouji wins, rather than him being unreliable on everything. I won't push this much tho since I'm unfamiliar with the LN and am anime-only. EDIT: so it's the novel that has some inconsistent statements, rather than it being a complete mess.

 

[Doggo]

This falls off after Y1V3 where he now is more reliable as a narrator

I have to object. Many of his narration is still wrong later own. Stuff like his feelings with the Ayanokoji group shows this. Or the whole Albert and Hosen scaling or the Ryuen and Ichika bit

He still very much lies after V3

 

[Buzzflightyear]

But that's a problem here, because Ayanokoji is seemingly unreliable we cannot take his word for it when he's describing his own actions. So the only valid feats would come from other characters narrating... Unless they too are shown to be unreliable.

That's the consequence when the protag and main narrator is straight contradicted.

The funny thing is the other characters are also saying the same things as him to prove his limits by saying other characters are superior to him in specific categories,, which even a White room instructor themselves says shown here:

Here is the statement: Ayanokouji and Tsukishiro agree that there are Non white room people as talented as white room members. Tsukishiro even says there is talent the white room cant even produce

• Examples with scans:Sakayanaki's intellect, Sudo's athletic ability, Albert's durable body, Manabu Horikita academic , fighting + running and Koenji's prodigious talent, plus more are all non white room members and has shown superior or comparable skill to non white room members.

 

[Doggo]

Nah, that doesn't sit well with me. Either he's reliable or unreliable.

Otherwise, the only conclusion for me is the entire verse is simply inconsistent for the sake of the plot.

I hate to admit it but the verse is simply thst inconsistent.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Well, i will wait for Reggor, i think he might be better at explaining than me

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

That's fair, but first, two of the calcs I sent (here are the links, I should have sent them before, sorry) use manga and anime for visuals... So... They happened.

And these lineup with the narration of the novel, right? Because if not, they shouldn't be taken as canon.

That being said, if things do lineup, then Ayanokoji is reliable. So his statements should be taken into consideration, and only those directly contradicted (and I have to chalk those up that he was simply mistaken and got corrected) should be disregarded. Everything else is fair game.

 

[3Pencil]

I have to object. Many of his narration is still wrong later own. Stuff like his feelings with the Ayanokoji group shows this. Or the whole Albert and Hosen scaling or the Ryuen and Ichika bit

He still very much lies after V3

Also even till now ayanokoji is still not a reliable narrator from the fact that during his breakup with kei he admitted to having feelings for her even tho he never realized it and later in Y3V2 he denied he never loved her or held any special feelings towards her

9/10 he is wrong and contradicts himself

 

[XxZetsuxX]

And these lineup with the narration of the novel, right? Because if not, they shouldn't be taken as canon.

These feats happen in the novel and are 1:1 with the anime afaik

 

[Doggo]

And these lineup with the narration of the novel, right? Because if not, they shouldn't be taken as canon.

That being said, if things do lineup, then Ayanokoji is reliable. So his statements should be taken into consideration, and only those directly contradicted (and I have to chalk those up that he was simply mistaken and got corrected) should be disregarded. Everything else is fair game.

I think this is a decent band aid for the verse's scaling for now

Anyway, my unreliable narrator argument should not be used now. But my argument highlightning those inconsistencies stands

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Also even till now ayanokoji is still not a reliable narrator from the fact that during his breakup with kei he admitted to having feelings for her even tho he never realized it and later in Y3V2 he denied he never loved her or held any special feelings towards her

9/10 he is wrong and contradicts himself

That's character stuff, my guy. That is normal. He's basically in denial.

What we want is to analyze when he narrates fight stuff and look specifically for things that contradict him (and more interestingly for me, the things where he is not contradicted).

 

[Zefra3011]

And these lineup with the narration of the novel, right? Because if not, they shouldn't be taken as canon.

Yes, for "ayanokuji outspeeding Manabu," I even made a CRT for it. I explain why the anime should be used for the calc, as it follows the LN descriptions. I can send the scans for the other one, too, if you want. I would just need time to look into the LN.

That being said, if things do lineup, then Ayanokoji is reliable. So his statements should be taken into consideration, and only those directly contradicted (and I have to chalk those up that he was simply mistaken and got corrected) should be disregarded. Everything else is fair game.

Yeah, to me it just sounds like there are some inconsistent statements here and there, which is normal for a novel with like over 20 volumes.

-

At this point, I think:
1: We should slow down with the replies and back and forth.
2: Gather feats displaying Ayanokouji's superiority, and start from there. Cause like, even if we have "unreliable statements," we need feats to contradict them.
EDIT: 3: and maybe start sending scans for the arguments.

 

[Doggo]

New summary with updated arguments:

-Manabu one shotting Ayanokoji is not reliable because we later see Nagumo, who is equal to him gets one shotted by Ayanokoji
-Albert being above Ayanokoji is not reliable when that same Albert is weaker than Hosen. Albert needed a group ambush to best Hosen (note: Koji did not narrate this scene). Same Hosen cannot escape the grip of Ayanokoji's injured hand
-Ryuen scaling to Ayanokoji is not reliable when other characters treat Manabu and Nagumo to be their own league. This puts them above Ryuen, and i already mentioned Koji one shotting Nagumo
-Koji stating Ichika is physically weaker than Ryuen's gang is contradicted by Suzune's own monolouge which showed a weakened Ichika blitzing and mandhandling Suzune and Ibuki in a 2v1. Ibuki is one of Ryuen's strongest members and Suzune is confident in facing Sudo who is relative to Ryuen