Ayanokoji is not an Extraordinary Genius

[MarkGoldbridge]

So lets look over the reasons why he got upgraded to E. G.

1. He is said to have an immeasurable amount of knowledge.

• This is just a basic metaphor so it has no use. It refers to Koji's extreme knowledge but that can already be achieved by real life genius people.

2. He mastered college-level stuff as a child.

• This doesn't suggest anything E. G. too. Him doing great stuff when he was young doesn't mean anything.

3. He is way superior to Takuya Yagami who could memorize details of around 156 students in one go. Implying that he has a lot of experience with memorizing stuff, also proving my point that he has immense knowledge.

• While it is true that he is above Takuya, that doesn't mean he is above him in all aspects. There are so many intelligence categories (you may look here), him just being smarter than Takuya overall doesn't suggest he can memorize stuff better.

4. His knowledge far exceeds the amount of knowledge which can be gained by a person in lifetime. It is important to note that this dude was literally trained by scientists who were experts in their fields, his knowledge is like the combination of all the fields, he even exceeds knowledge of an expert scientist even when the scientist knows everything in their respective field, and all of it, he remembers. Also, he was just 16 years old when he had that much knowledge, more like 15 because he left white room around that age.

• The first sentence is just a statement by him that isn't something proved (as seen in the scan in the original thread). It also says here that he was trained by scientists from many fields, but how many and what fields? In the scan it just talks about usual arts and science stuff, which a genius can have broad knowledge on. Again, it talks about him doing this at a young age but this doesn't make the feat more impressive, maybe a little bit.

4. He remembers a day as a newborn, basically remembering the time when he was staring at the ceiling, and even remembering the time when he was playing with his own fingertips.

• Photographic memory is possible in real life and you don't even have to be a genius for it.

5. Outsmarted a dedicated machine and played a better move than even the machine, chess machines can no longer be defeated by even GMs, arguments like it would be easy to do can easily be countered too, from 1990's, it became impossible to defeat high-level computers. We are living in 2020's and it is already around 30 years and machines have gotten a lot better. Also, if this is not enough, know that the verse itself is set in the future and has too modern technologies with many innovations. A chess machine can process millions of positions of chess per second. This other source states that a high-level chess computer like Alpha:Zero can play 20 million times with itself (i.e, 20 million positions in a second, or more if we see a game perspective because it literally played 20 million games with itself). And he outsmarted a machine like it.

• This stuff has already been debunked in the SCD (Smart Characters Debate, basically scaling people based off intelligence) community. Here is a really, and by that I mean really in-depth debunk of this feat: Document link (I should warn you that it is over 197000+ characters). You can see the debunks of some arguments at the bottom of the document, but to really get why this feat isn't E. G. level you'd have to read the whole thing, or maybe 1/2 of it. What the document proves: his elo is around 2300.

6. He can literally guess which card is it by just seeing them get shuffled and because of that, he is also said to have a perfect memory.

• See the 4th section.

7. He can visualize the future till some extent. He considers each and every possibility and determines outcomes for the each one.

• He doesn't visualize the future itself, like its said he just considers each outcome and makes plans according to it. Making a strategy that covers everything doesn't get you to E. G., people like The Professor (Money Heist) and Joe Goldberg (YOU) can achieve this too and it's nothing superhuman.

Proposal: Just "Genius" works for him.
Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[Worthless]

You wouldn't like to hear the response they'll give you based on how terrible your counter arguments are.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Chess feat wasn't even debunked to begin with lol

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Based on what I bothered to read, your points look well thought out to me, but keep in mind that, if a character qualifies as an unrealistic genius in multiple scientific fields separately from each other, as in the character qualifies for the "Genius" rank multiple times per different complicated specialty they have (which primarily concerns science), then the character can qualify for the "Extraordinary Genius" rank in terms of their overall intelligence anyway. This is based on the first sentence of the rank's description on the Intelligence page: "Individuals whose knowledge spreads over multiple fields of science and who vastly surpass the real world's upper human limits." I'm not familiar with Classroom of the Elite, but Ayanokōji looks like the type of character who could easily accomplish greatness in various skills and scientific fields in a way that no real human could. If my observation of him is true, which I'm sure other people would argue is the case, then Ayanokōji qualifies for the "Extraordinary Genius" rank. I agree with you about changing the basis of justifying Ayanokōji's intelligence rank though.

 

[RoggerReggor]

So lets look over the reasons why he got upgraded to E. G.

1. He is said to have an immeasurable amount of knowledge.

• This is just a basic metaphor so it has no use. It refers to Koji's extreme knowledge but that can already be achieved by real life genius people.

No, this is just wrong. His knowledge cannot be achieved by real-life people. And the reason for that? It has literally been stated.

2. He mastered college-level stuff as a child.

• This doesn't suggest anything E. G. too. Him doing great stuff when he was young doesn't mean anything.

It actually does mean something. Unarguably, or let's say arguably, the smartest person on the planet, William James Sidis was able to reach the university level at 8 years of age, and by the time Ayanokouji was 9 years old, he had already surpassed the knowledge of all his instructors. All the instructors are said to be professionals in their fields of expertise, professionalism in general terms is at least a master's degree, or a PHd degree, both of which are above the primary level of university by a mile.

In terms, William James Sidis would qualify as an "At least Genius", for being an upper-world genius, while Ayanokouji easily classifies well above him.

3. He is way superior to Takuya Yagami who could memorize details of around 156 students in one go. Implying that he has a lot of experience with memorizing stuff, also proving my point that he has immense knowledge.

• While it is true that he is above Takuya, that doesn't mean he is above him in all aspects. There are so many intelligence categories (you may look here), him just being smarter than Takuya overall doesn't suggest he can memorize stuff better.

He actually can memorize stuff much better, there's literally even a better feat for that which was described in the previous thread, where he was able to memorize the information of 10 sets of 5 cards, which means 50 cards in total, in a very less time than Takuya, while Takuya had about an hour or so for memorization.

4. His knowledge far exceeds the amount of knowledge which can be gained by a person in lifetime. It is important to note that this dude was literally trained by scientists who were experts in their fields, his knowledge is like the combination of all the fields, he even exceeds knowledge of an expert scientist even when the scientist knows everything in their respective field, and all of it, he remembers. Also, he was just 16 years old when he had that much knowledge, more like 15 because he left white room around that age.

• The first sentence is just a statement by him that isn't something proved (as seen in the scan in the original thread). It also says here that he was trained by scientists from many fields, but how many and what fields?

He goes above all the subjects which are taught in school, it was stated by himself in Y2V1 after beating Suzune in the exam that there was not even a single question in the school which he couldn't answer till that point. The first questions which he couldn't answer were about real-life philosophies and we know that White Room never taught anything about IRL stuff. This means that he possesses knowledge in various subjects such as sciences, arithmetic, commerce, humanities and his monologues have even revealed traces of psychology.

Either way, it doesn't matter. VSBW doesn't use Stop's scaling (basically a system of intelligence scaling which only uses on-screen feats and not narratives), so a statement saying that his knowledge far exceeds the amount of knowledge that can be learnt in a lifetime doesn't require anything such as context behind it.

• In the scan it just talks about usual arts and science stuff, which a genius can have broad knowledge on. Again, it talks about him doing this at a young age but this doesn't make the feat more impressive, maybe a little bit.

For a correction, many university students can learn the same, but the only difference is that they don't have a statement of having more knowledge than what a person could have.

4. He remembers a day as a newborn, basically remembering the time when he was staring at the ceiling, and even remembering the time when he was playing with his own fingertips.

• Photographic memory is possible in real life and you don't even have to be a genius for it.

It isn't.

5. Outsmarted a dedicated machine and played a better move than even the machine, chess machines can no longer be defeated by even GMs, arguments like it would be easy to do can easily be countered too, from 1990's, it became impossible to defeat high-level computers. We are living in 2020's and it is already around 30 years and machines have gotten a lot better. Also, if this is not enough, know that the verse itself is set in the future and has too modern technologies with many innovations. A chess machine can process millions of positions of chess per second. This other source states that a high-level chess computer like Alpha:Zero can play 20 million times with itself (i.e, 20 million positions in a second, or more if we see a game perspective because it literally played 20 million games with itself). And he outsmarted a machine like it.

• This stuff has already been debunked in the SCD (Smart Characters Debate, basically scaling people based off intelligence) community. Here is a really, and by that I mean really in-depth debunk of this feat: Document link (I should warn you that it is over 197000+ characters). You can see the debunks of some arguments at the bottom of the document, but to really get why this feat isn't E. G. level you'd have to read the whole thing, or maybe 1/2 of it. What the document proves: his elo is around 2300.

Again, the document has not disproved the "depth" analysis and the "predictions" part. The only thing which a lot of people don't agree with is the calculations part, and that itself is not that big of a problem, people don't agree that he has to analyze the moves on the same speed as the machine, but only the positions beyond that speed, which is still not possible for a human, either way, both the things before are still not possible.

6. He can literally guess which card is it by just seeing them get shuffled and because of that, he is also said to have a perfect memory.

• See the 4th section.

(answered)

7. He can visualize the future till some extent. He considers each and every possibility and determines outcomes for the each one.

• He doesn't visualize the future itself, like its said he just considers each outcome and makes plans according to it. Making a strategy that covers everything doesn't get you to E. G., people like The Professor (Money Heist) and Joe Goldberg (YOU) can achieve this too and it's nothing superhuman.

Again, two wrongs don't make one right wrong as well, or the other way around (or I am unsure because while I have watched Money Heist, I know nothing about Goldberg).

Ayanokouji has supporting feats behind this statement:

• Read the novel from Y1V4 to Y1V7, there, he orchestrated an entire event of beating Ryuuen and it was a no-diff stomp for about half a year. He basically planned each and every outcome and till the last point of his victory, it was literally going all according to his plan.
• He let Takuya Yagami (Y2V3 to Y2V7) break multiple of school rules which damaged several 1st and 2nd Years, and even 3rd Years like Nagumo, just because he could visualize a future where Takuya would be expelled by luring him in. He did an entire psychological analysis behind him and predicted his actions as well.

There are 10s of examples where Ayanokouji perfectly visualizes the future, such as him predicting the entire Suzune-Kushida agreement outcome, then prediction of Honami's downfall, then prediction of the unknown student, then predicting the entire plan of Housen and Ichika and thinking about it in like an instant, predicting the actions of Arisu's group with Nanase and Tsukishiro in the 2nd Year and successfully securing the region 12, predicting the actions of the teachers in response to Tsukishiro, and many others.

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

following

 

[RoggerReggor]

Another thing is that while I understand the off-site dislike for the chess feats from the Event Selection Exam (Y1V11), the important thing is that it still doesn't make it insufficient for the criteria of "outperforming supercomputers".

Doing calculations is just one of a thousand ways you can outperform a machine. A dedicated chess machine, or commonly called as a chess engine, surpasses the abilities of various supercomputers, not due to their sheer calculation power, but operating at a higher depth. A higher depth in chess is said to be analysis of positions in chess in a more "multi-tasked" way of keeping all the pieces in mind which supply a positional advantage, with more linear and complex combination of moves, which is supported by the calculation speed only to manage at lesser time.

VSBW defines supercomputers as "an umbrella term for the ability to perform extremely advanced thought processes such as calculations and multitasking". While the "calculations" part (basically where it has been said "20 million positions") might be heavily arguable, we still cannot disagree that he was able to analyze the position much better than a couple of dedicated chess machines and a team of professional personnel personally hired by the school, which still doesn't disprove the fact that he had a better accuracy than a chess machine and was operating at a better depth than it, which classifies as "extremely advanced thought process", also, analyzing positions better than the machine is more of a

 

[wwereymy235]

Question. Does what SCD use to scale characters allowed here? Like FSIQ?

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Question. Does what SCD use to scale characters allowed here? Like FSIQ?

I don't think SCD is allowed here

 

[XxZetsuxX]

We just take the feats without fans analyzing them to my knowledge

 

[wwereymy235]

I don't think SCD is allowed here

Alright then. I would assume the PMH doc would still be valid as it clearly is superior to what OP said about Ayanokoji having only photographic memory.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

We need CRTS for docs and stuff first i believe

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Alright then. I would assume the PMH doc would still be valid as it clearly is superior to what OP said about Ayanokoji having only photographic memory.

Yeah, PMH is OP asf

Having to rewatch his entire life in the WR instantly while having to turn around towards Arisu makes Koji a E.G easily

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Also, We can argue Koji has sub+ perception speed with that up to hypersonic lel

 

[Rikimarox2]

******* 96 pages just to debunk a single feat, Jesus christ.

Anyways, our scaling is not really like SCD, I don't think we go that in depth to check every category (Fsiq, Eq, Sq, etc...), we just check wtf the dude did like, oh he can outsmart a supercomputer, easy E.G.

That said, Koji's feats, from what I have seen, still fit the E.G category even if you go the SCD route.

Disagree.

Baku solos tho ong, don't @ me.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Baku solos tho ong, don't @ me.

Y u no comment on a Baku vs Yokoya thread

 

[Rikimarox2]

Y u no comment on a Baku vs Yokoya thread

I don't have the energy for a normal debate, let alone a SCD where I have to pull every feat in the world, especially considering Baku's shenanigans isn't simple stuff that I can fit into one sentence.

I'm here mostly to lurk, maybe add an input or two for a CRT or a joke thread, and that's it.

Maybe after I finish this semester, I'd be able to (I'm becoming an academic victim tho ngl)

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I don't have the energy for a normal debate, let alone a SCD where I have to pull every feat in the world, especially considering Baku's shenanigans isn't simple stuff that I can fit into one sentence.

I'm here mostly to lurk, maybe add an input or two for a CRT or a joke thread, and that's it.

Maybe after I finish this semester, I'd be able to (I'm becoming an academic victim tho ngl)

Ah, No worries then XD

 

[Cimafranca133]

Question. Does what SCD use to scale characters allowed here? Like FSIQ?

As someone who is a part of SCD and VSBW, I very certain that this cite only uses FSIQ, Combat IQ and Knowledge for scaling Intelligence.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Mainly FSIQ

But they also use other stuff although they don't value as much as FSIQ

 

[Cimafranca133]

Mainly FSIQ

But they also use other stuff although they don't value as much as FSIQ

I'm pretty sure Combat IQ is more used than FSIQ here

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I'm pretty sure Combat IQ is more used than FSIQ here

They separate between IQ and BIQ though

But yeah

 

[Memonto_Mori]

I agree with this downgrade, something I have been supporting for a long time, if SCD concepts such as FSIQ FSEQ applied here, it would be doubtful that ayanokoji would even be a genius, because narrative and off screen feats are unacceptable in SCD.


I propose the introduction of SCD on the wiki

 

[Rikimarox2]

I agree with this downgrade, something I have been supporting for a long time, if SCD concepts such as FSIQ FSEQ applied here, it would be doubtful that ayanokoji would even be a genius, because narrative and off screen feats are unacceptable in SCD.

Unlikely, since we kinda wanna accept the majority of feats, even illogical ones (You'd see feats such as soulhaxxing a rock, even though its illogical, we still consider it.). We're not implementing SCD, as that would downgrade a majority of characters, especially since a lot of them are narrative and statements only. We want everything to be accepted, otherwise high-iq and technology shenanigans could net pretty bad intelligence rating, simply due to not being able to prove how it is done.

I propose the introduction of SCD on the wiki

I do agree though, ngl. Would be way more fun to debate characters in other ways instead of the normal "Who is stronger" type.

 

[Memonto_Mori]

Another thing is that while I understand the off-site dislike for the chess feats from the Event Selection Exam (Y1V11), the important thing is that it still doesn't make it insufficient for the criteria of "outperforming supercomputers".

Doing calculations is just one of a thousand ways you can outperform a machine. A dedicated chess machine, or commonly called as a chess engine, surpasses the abilities of various supercomputers, not due to their sheer calculation power, but operating at a higher depth. A higher depth in chess is said to be analysis of positions in chess in a more "multi-tasked" way of keeping all the pieces in mind which supply a positional advantage, with more linear and complex combination of moves, which is supported by the calculation speed only to manage at lesser time.

VSBW defines supercomputers as "an umbrella term for the ability to perform extremely advanced thought processes such as calculations and multitasking". While the "calculations" part (basically where it has been said "20 million positions") might be heavily arguable, we still cannot disagree that he was able to analyze the position much better than a couple of dedicated chess machines and a team of professional personnel personally hired by the school, which still doesn't disprove the fact that he had a better accuracy than a chess machine and was operating at a better depth than it, which classifies as "extremely advanced thought process", also, analyzing positions better than the machine is more of a

"Prove it's a supercomputer." You say it's a supercomputer in the terms of the White Room and the State, but it doesn't say supercomputer anywhere. It's only the part that says Adjusted by the State in full. How do you know that what is adjusted by the state is a supercomputer. Also, if you've watched a little bit of Hikaru and Magnus, you don't need to think faster than a Machine to defeat it. You can just think of a better move. he can't beat the machine anyway. as a possible argument. "Thinking better than him means he has to calculate all those moves" you can make a stupid stupid argument that he came to that conclusion but that is easily refuted because how do you know that the Machine can be fast and smart enough to calculate those moves? maybe a 1000 Elo machine was sent?

 

[Memonto_Mori]

Unlikely, since we kinda wanna accept the majority of feats, even illogical ones (You'd see feats such as soulhaxxing a rock, even though its illogical, we still consider it.). We're not implementing SCD, as that would downgrade a majority of characters, especially since a lot of them are narrative and statements only. We want everything to be accepted, otherwise high-iq and technology shenanigans could net pretty bad intelligence rating, simply due to not being able to prove how it is done.

you can't give any character a specific IQ, things like 280-300 are flawed and invalid, that's why we use the SCD, the SCD is much more detailed than normal IQ tests and someone who is not intelligent in the SCD concept is not really intelligent.

 

[Rikimarox2]

you can't give any character a specific IQ, things like 280-300 are flawed and invalid, that's why we use the SCD, the SCD is much more detailed than normal IQ tests and someone who is not intelligent in the SCD concept is not really intelligent.

I understand where you're coming from (and I agree with using that stuff), but the problem is that the wiki doesn't go of off logical feats or stop scaling only, but they want narrative scaling as well since the majority of characters in the wiki use that kind of scaling. Not every verse goes in-depth into the intelligence of their character, but only glazing them narrative-wise and giving them a few statements, and that's it. They're not intelligent SCD-wise, but I don't think the Wiki will go SCD route since it will be unfair for a large portion of the wiki characters.

Though, I'm just stating what I think the Wiki wants If you can make a CRT proposing SCD, just ping me and I'm wholeheartedly supporting it (Baku and Akiyama will be eating good)

 

[Memonto_Mori]

I understand where you're coming from (and I agree with using that stuff), but the problem is that the wiki doesn't go of off logical feats or stop scaling only, but they want narrative scaling as well since the majority of characters in the wiki use that kind of scaling. Not every verse goes in-depth into the intelligence of their character, but only glazing them narrative-wise and giving them a few statements, and that's it. They're not intelligent SCD-wise, but I don't think the Wiki will go SCD route since it will be unfair for a large portion of the wiki characters.

I agree, but with the logic of the wiki, the scales are wrong, at least certain scales are wrong, for example, ayanokoji saying that he knows all martial arts is not a proof that he knows.

 

[RoggerReggor]

"Prove it's a supercomputer." You say it's a supercomputer in the terms of the White Room and the State, but it doesn't say supercomputer anywhere. It's only the part that says Adjusted by the State in full. How do you know that what is adjusted by the state is a supercomputer. Also, if you've watched a little bit of Hikaru and Magnus, you don't need to think faster than a Machine to defeat it. You can just think of a better move. he can't beat the machine anyway. as a possible argument. "Thinking better than him means he has to calculate all those moves" you can make a stupid stupid argument that he came to that conclusion but that is easily refuted because how do you know that the Machine can be fast and smart enough to calculate those moves? maybe a 1000 Elo machine was sent?

This is the wrong part about most of the chess feat downgrades.

First of all, a chess engine is better than a supercomputer, I mean, far better. Garry Kasparov could beat a supercomputer in 1990s, but now, it's impossible for even Magnus Carlsen, who title-wise and through feats, stands above the likes of Garry. Chess machines, or better known as chess engines, are computer programs dedicated to playing chess. Supercomputer or anything, or any high-end processor, wouldn't be able to match the likes of a chess engine if it has a way higher depth search than the before.

Don't completely ignore the depth part. In reality, machines can process trillions of moves with millions to billions of positions ranging from strings to the branched moves. It's completely different. Yes, I was doubtful about the part of processing as well, but you cannot "just think" of a better move out of nowhere. At higher depths, the move complexity increases heavily. Depths in 100s are considered as depths with almost 100% accuracies, but they takes almost forever. Branching patterns originating from them requires way higher processing speeds which do not relate with just "you can think of a better move".

Secondly, it is idiotic to think that they would bring a literal 1000 ELO machine to a literal professional chess event. Like, this argument itself is very bad, specially when creating a 1000 ELO chess engine itself would be considered idiotic, even C++ written codes assigned to chess bots have higher ratings than 1000 (and you can run them with a 2 GB ram lol), like way higher. 1000 ELO is so less that a beginner with 400 ELO with a year or so of training can reach that level with dedication. Why would a government-organized school bring 1000 ELO machines when they have brought chess professionals with them as well? Why would they bring a machine in the first place if they are simply dependent on personnel?

Tsukishiro and his personnel took 30 seconds or so to think of a move which wouldn't be considered a careless mistake, if the machines were 1000 ELO, why would professionals take that big of a time to think of a move more complex than that?

 

[RoggerReggor]

you can't give any character a specific IQ, things like 280-300 are flawed and invalid, that's why we use the SCD, the SCD is much more detailed than normal IQ tests and someone who is not intelligent in the SCD concept is not really intelligent.

I agree, but with the logic of the wiki, the scales are wrong, at least certain scales are wrong, for example, ayanokoji saying that he knows all martial arts is not a proof that he knows.

I agree with this, according to VSBW standards, Ayanokouji would be a mid to high-level EG, but according to SCD standards, he would be at least a Genius. But again, giving Genius or EG ratings upon SCD standards is not the best thing I as an SCD scaler would do, I would simply classify them as high tiers, mid tiers, low tiers or rather realistic, sub-realistic and completely unrealistic characters. Tbh, I never considered omniscient as a means of being able to outsmart others, it's a bad concept, omniscience is basically just knowledge, a person can be knowing everything with IQ in the 10s and be unable to apply it to anything, even though that case seems unlikely, the degree of omniscience matters as well.

 

[RoggerReggor]

ayanokoji saying that he knows all martial arts is not a proof that he knows.

LMAO, he never said that, it is just made by the people who wank his martial arts skills.

Either way, in Proven Ability, if he said that he knew all the martial arts of the world, it would be considered valid, the only scaling which wouldn't accept it would be Stop's scaling, which is literally just made to cope with the unrealistic feats, if that system was to be taken into consideration while scaling in the wiki, Dazai would be a Yumeko victim.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Also, I am planning to create a thread for at least Perfect Memory feats which are backed by real-world researches and are considerably much better feats for Ayanokouji's processing speed, even the trillion scales of chess aren't a bother for it.