Avacyn vs Ashen one

[Wokistan]

Too bad there's no 6B Hunter

Humanity's protector turned purifier vs Basically all of humanity into one body, but not star level

Speed equalized due to sunlight spear

Win by any means

Starting distance of 400m (subject to change)

Low 6B Avacyn vs 6B Ashen one

State who wins and why.

Note about Avacyn being low 6B: I'm probably going to change that tomorrow to just straight up 6B, since Jace and other plainswalkers are rather high into low 6B, avacyn stomps two at once, and is noted to be capable of 1 shooting. She also fights sorin and is comparable physically, being killed due to sorin undoing the spell he cast to create her. He, at his lowest, is listed as just a 6B. So don't see their tiers and think it's immediately an AP stomp.

Avacy:3 (Dargoo Faust, Kinkiest Sins, Serpent of the Internet 97)

Ashen One:

Inconclusive:

 

[Wokistan]

Bump

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Ressurection is restricted, correct?

(EDIT: Actually, forget that, Avacyn can cancel out curses.)

I'm going to give this to Avacyn handily due to Power Null and a giant range advantage. All her holy weapons are going to royally screw him/her up as well.

 

[Wokistan]

Vote counted, though iirc the only thing shown with universal range was the cursemute. That still negs the resurrection though.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Even then, magic like the cursemute should null any dark magic the Ashen one uses, especially if they're at a close range and Avacyn sees them as an immediate threat. Once the Ashen one even gets in his or her range to actually attack, he/she becomes susceptible to all other kinds of power nulls (Strong enough to null both Tamiyo and Sorin)

 

[Wokistan]

Remember that Ashen one has the raw power advantage over all 3 of them, and isn't exactly bad in melee range.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Immortality and Invulnerability kind of have that covered.

 

[Wokistan]

I mean, Sorin quite clearly hurt her. Invulnerability is just in her tier, which is why I'd prefer to just keep her at highest possible low 6B rather than normal 6B, which would mean she should no sell normal 6Bs, which is clearly not the case. Idk how applicable type 4 immortality really is, but she does at the very least stop the reason why ashen one wins fights in canon.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Bump.

Also, she was clearly not able to properly combat Sorin for the majority of the fight, and Sorin has ways to negate invulnerability and immortality, especially since he was the source of her immortality.

 

[Wokistan]

I mean, once she got past the restriction of him being her creator she probably would have done better (doubt a win though) if he hadn't just undone the spell he did to create her premending, and invulnerability is a bit of a weird ability here due to the ability's definition in simplest terms being a textbook NLF. I think its usually just considered within the same tier, but I'm not entirely sure about that.

 

[KinkiestSins]

To be honest, Avacyn should be 6-B since she fought Tamiyo and Jace at the same time and still won.

It isn't on her profile, but shouldn't she have BFR as well? She can exile Ashen One with Descend Upon the Sinful.

Her power nullification is also pretty good, considering she nullified Tamiyo's and Sorin's spells, the latter btw is Sorin >>>>> Tamiyo and Jace.

It should only work on most spells, but Ashen One should still have that AP advantage (Considering the above still isnt true)

6 Teratons vs 8 is still an AP advantage and Ashen One probably has the hax advantage by far (assuming of course Avacyn doesn't nope his hax off the bat)

I will say Inconclusive, leaning to Ashen.

If we applied my above statement, Avacyn would win via BFR, Power Null and AP.

But since none of these are applicable, Inconclusive for now.

 

[Wokistan]

I have power null on the profile already, and I'm on the fence about the 6B thing personally. They should be comparable in AP as is either way, not like she can't hurt Ashen one. I can't really change things right now and put on BFR though, don't have access to a computer rn.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

It isn't on her profile, but shouldn't she have BFR as well? She can exile Ashen One with Descend Upon the Sinful.

Game Mechanics Ôëá Powers and Abilities. Unless the wiki has been treating implied abilities through card mechanics as proof of a power or feat, I would need a solid statement or a clear depiction in the art of her BFRing someone.

Also, even if the Ashen One has an AP advantage, with Avacyn's power null the only thing they can really attack with is a bow, which shoots with much less accuracy and firing rate than Avacyn's wide variety of offensive spells (I.E., Avacyn can just nuke them with fire attacks before they can draw back and fire their first arrow)

That's not even really counting Avacyn's Invulnerability, imo.

 

[Wokistan]

Card mechanics actually have been being used, albeit usually on a case by case basis. Nicol Bolas has a lot of abilities he has due to cards, that's where Jace's duplication comes from, etc.

 

[Wokistan]

One has to take into account context also. Jace having low 1C mindhax through the -12 on JTMS is clearly not at his level of power storywise, but something like him making duplicates makes sense given his powerset and what he's done with it before.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Jace having low 1C mindhax through the -12 on JTMS is clearly not at his level of power storywise, but something like him making duplicates makes sense given his powerset and what he's done with it before.

Is percicely why we shouldn't even go close to interpreting Game Mechanics as feats. Also, lol.

Jace's Duplication is solidly grounded in the lore and stories, and is fairly obvious in the art.

Which is why I'd want to see art of Avacyn BFRing someone or a mention of it in the story, not to mention adding it to her profile before it'd even be considered in a battle. Like, the art implies nothing more than she's killing a bunch of people. Just because it uses the same game mechanic as spells that imply existence erasure or BFR doesn't mean anything, especially since those cards portray very different things.

 

[KinkiestSins]

Like, the art implies nothing more than she's killing a bunch of people. Just because it uses the same game mechanic as spells that imply existence erasure or BFR doesn't mean anything, especially since those cards portray very different things.

For Avacyn, the card exiles a target, which is BFR.

We accept card mechanics on here generally speaking, not gonna make the effort for a crt tho.

I guess Avacyn fra though.

The more I think about, the ap really isnt that conclusive.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Exile is BFR?

It's also been used for existence erasure and time manip (Suspend) spells. Bounce spells are normally what magic considers as BFR. It's really inconsistant, which is why I don't think we should rely on it that much. But, if that's what sysops/experts have agreed on for the verse, oh well.

I don't think an AP difference matters much here because I doubt the Ashen one can land a hit from a distance without magic; especially with Avacyn flying around and bombing them with spells.

 

[Wokistan]

Yeah, the closest approximation to that would probably be ringed city angels which aren't supposed to be killed by direct combat, so that's fair. Avacyn doesn't have the stamina problem stuff like the dark souls dragons and flyers do. I'm kinda wondering if unequal speed would make it better, but I don't know how relativistic Ashen One's movement is.

 

[Wokistan]

Some exile is BFR, other exile is EE, a few are regen negation plotwise, it's not totally consistent but limiting such a prevalent game mechanic to one ability like that probably wouldn't be the best for creative to work with.

 

[Serpent_of_the_Internet_97]

If exile is supposed to indicate anything on Descend upon the Sinful the most likely option is disintegration given Avacyn's subtheme of fire, her "burn everything to the ground" attitude in that set and her use of light to burn targets.

Red cards with exile also usally show disintegration in the artwork so its not like this was the only time where exile indicated disintegration.

 

[Wokistan]

Since the card straight up called disintegrate exiles if it kills, as well as regen negation, that seems to make sense. Descend upon the sinful is in the right set to match up with purifier as well.

 

[KinkiestSins]

What Wokistan said makes sense

For example

Anguished Unmaking = EE

Oblivion Ring, Door to Nowhere = BFR

Disintergrate == EE + Regen Negation

• sigh* sucks this thread aint getting more attentions

Either one of these three mean doom for the ashen one, so go Avacyn.

 

[Serpent_of_the_Internet_97]

Voting Avacyn fra then

 

[Wokistan]

votes counted.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

What Wokistan said makes sense
For example

Anguished Unmaking = EE

Oblivion Ring, Door to Nowhere = BFR

Swords to Plowshares depicts some guy becoming a farmer. Just to clarify, it's almost identical mechanically to Path to Exile, which is clearly existance erasure or BFR.

Wizard's use of card mechanics is just too inconsistant even for some educated guesses. It's much more safe to base powers and abilities under solid evidence like art and story. Avacyn has disintegrated the undead before due to holy manip, but not from her fire manip, and it would be unfounded to assume that based on a card that's depicting her smiling and looking down at something.

What Wokistan said makes sense
Disintergrate == EE + Regen Negation

Disintegrate = Someone disintegrating someone with a spell. It doesn't negate regen, unless by negating you mean being too destructive for something with Low-High and below to come back from.

 

[Wokistan]

The spell disintegrate negates regen, which was what he was referring to.

 

[Serpent_of_the_Internet_97]

@Dragoo

Yes the art goes off the idea that Wizards put the word exile on the card for a story reason and not just put the word exile to justify the mana cost. The thing is, Avacyn has proven to use spells that suit the term, specifically disintagration via holy magic, forming the possible connection that Avacyn is swooping down to kill the crying group of people via a holy or light attack and not just with her spear (it would also be more efficent) in the art. If the art showed a wolf, human, demon, or any other creature/character that hasn't been proven to use an abiltiy that implies the term, then there would be no connection.

Its a vauge connection yes, but I wouldn't say its a total shot in the dark.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I mean, if the connection is that she can disintegrate things, sure, that's supported in the lore.

I'm hoping neither of you still think it's BFR or Existance erasure. Either way, being undead means the ashen One is boned against holy magic.

 

[Wokistan]

Just remembered, ashen one has power null that works on 4Cs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=aBtoz5Ifp-Y

You can get this super early in the game btw, literally the third area. This also disables Ashen One's own non vow of silence magic, so does it change anything here?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Just remembered, ashen one has power null that works on 4Cs.

In their 6-B Key?

(EDIT: Actually, either way, Avacyn's power null hits at a much greater range and covers an entire area, and she starts farther away than the Ashen One's power null goes)

 

[Wokistan]

You can get it in his 8B key, all you need is to go to the very beginning of the 3rd area, find yoel, kill yourself a few times, get yuria, and get the spell. Avacyn's power null came from canceling spells from Jace and Tamiyo, not sure where you're getting the AOE part from unless I forgot about a card or something.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Avacyn's power null came from canceling spells from Jace and Tamiyo, not sure where you're getting the AOE part from unless I forgot about a card or something.

The Cursemute?

 

[Wokistan]

That's not power null, that was specifically removing the various curses and stuff of innistrad. At best, no dark magic. Pretty sure her regular power null doesn't have the universal range that did, unless you're insinuating that cursemute could undo the undead curse and thus disable regen, which yeah probably.

 

[Wokistan]

That powernull also only prevented Aldrich's magic, so Avacyn would be fine to just hit Ashen One with her spear if that came into play. Not like it would completely neg all her stuff.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Just so I watched the video right, the Ashen one had to hit Aldrich before it power neged, right?

Nevermind, looked it up. Avacyn still outranges the Ashen one's power neg with most of her spells, to be fair, and her power neg can just be used on incoming spells.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Hmmm...

This match's interesting. I'll comment later.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Also wanted to note: Ashen One prevents magic casting in a relatively small area. Avacyn can still cast spells like fire and holy manip from a distance and counter the Ashen One's.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Bump

 

[Wokistan]

Bump