Asta Fate Manipulation

[Lewa]

Asta can control the War from afar, make people stronger than ever before, and even keep those who must die alive. Moreover, he does this unconsciously and on his own thought.

 

[Lynieryz]

That's not what's being said, Asta is something that Lucius is not able to predict and that influenced who he interacted with in relation to Lucius' predictions because "something unpredictable" obviously will bring unexpected results to your prediction, the most you can get with this is acausality for Asta.

 

[Catzlaflame]

A thread has already been made on this. Their argument of resistance to precog is much more attuned to the context tbh. disagree.

 

[Lewa]

That's not what's being said, Asta is something that Lucius is not able to predict and that influenced who he interacted with in relation to Lucius' predictions because "something unpredictable" obviously will bring unexpected results to your prediction, the most you can get with this is acausality for Asta.

Maybe, but I don't see causality as appropriate for these achievements. The causation explanation is very different. At least I can say that he created a new future that Asta Lucius could not see. Lucius had seen all the futures before and said that they only won in one, but in this case, everything completely backfired for lucius, so this was not the battle they won in that one, I can say according to lucius' reactions.

 

[Lewa]

A thread has already been made on this. Their argument of resistance to precog is much more attuned to the context tbh. disagree.

Frankly, it's not something I really care about, I'm just considering possible options.

 

[Lynieryz]

Maybe, but I don't see causality as appropriate for these achievements. The causation explanation is very different. At least I can say that he created a new future that Asta Lucius could not see. Lucius had seen all the futures before and said that they only won in one, but in this case, everything completely backfired for lucius, so this was not the battle they won in that one, I can say according to lucius' reactions.

I didn't really understand what your objective was here, Lucius saw futures without Asta, that's the difference.

 

[ImmortalDread]

A thread has already been made on this. Their argument of resistance to precog is much more attuned to the context tbh. disagree.

I disagree for the same reasons.

 

[Enigmatic_Rurouni]

I will say that there’s a chance of maybe Acausal(type 4) or resistance to precognition for Asta at this point of the story, especially in the latest chapter when they added that Asta’s future is unable to be read

 

[Lewa]

I didn't really understand what your objective was here, Lucius saw futures without Asta, that's the difference.

Lucius sees all the futures and says that in only 1 of them they win. In this battle, he says, Asta influenced this battle and therefore he could not see the future.The most logical option is; He created a future that Asta Lucius could not see and made Team Yuno win in that future. ( I tried to say that. )

 

[Lewa]

I will say that there’s a chance of maybe Acausal(type 4) or resistance to precognition for Asta at this point of the story, especially in the latest chapter when they added that Asta’s future is unable to be read

I don't think it's Acausality Type 4. I can only show predictive resistance. There is no success of resistance Related to the Manipulation of Fate.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

I don't think it's Acausality Type 4. I can only show predictive resistance. There is no success of resistance Related to the Manipulation of Fate.

It would actually be more of a type 2 acausality , Asta has no mana, mana is the fundamental aspect that exists in the world and in people

Lucius/Julius precogonion works when they read mana flow

And he is affected by Vanessa's manipulation of fate because in Black clover fate is not bound by time but by the laws/logic of the world

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

It's only Resistance to Precognition. No fate manipulation or Acausality. Type 2 needs feats not existing in past also which asta has zero feats.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

It's only Resistance to Precognition. No fate manipulation or Acausality. Type 2 needs feats not existing in past also which asta has zero feats.

Asta doesn't exist in the mana stream which implies he doesn't exist in the time stream, and Asta's existence was totally unknown to Dante and Lucifero who were under the command of Lucius who has the ability to see space-time structures in full

https://vsbattles.com/threads/black-clover-cosmology-and-resistance.154200/

Lucius also calls Asta a "defect of this world "

 

[Lewa]

It would actually be more of a type 2 acausality , Asta has no mana, mana is the fundamental aspect that exists in the world and in people

Lucius/Julius precogonion works when they read mana flow

And he is affected by Vanessa's manipulation of fate because in Black clover fate is not bound by time but by the laws/logic of the world

If by mana you mean magic, then magic = stamina, which is somewhat contradictory. If Asta's magic is completely absent, does she have infinite Stamina or no Stamina completely? ( I just said the contradiction, of course, if you don't mean magic by mana, it changes. )

 

[Lewa]

Aslında daha çok tip 2 nedensellik olurdu, Asta'nın manası yoktur, mana dünyada ve insanlarda var olan temel unsurdur.

Lucius/Julius precogonion, mana akışını okuduklarında çalışır

Ve Vanessa'nın kaderi manipüle etmesinden etkilenir çünkü Kara Yonca'da kader zamana değil, dünyanın kanunlarına/mantığına bağlıdır.

Acausality Type 2 is currently uncertain.

 

[Georredannea15]

First of all, you wrote the OP to Turkish, I recommend you to fix it.

Other than that... Mehh, i seriously don't see anything for Acausality or fate hax here.

Just seems a resistance to precognition at best.

 

[Lewa]

First of all, you wrote the OP to Turkish, I recommend you to fix it.

Other than that... Mehh, i seriously don't see anything for Acausality or fate hax here.

Just seems a resistance to precognition at best.

I Fixed ıt.

Bringing people back from the dead with his thoughts is an example of destiny manipulation.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

If by mana you mean magic, then magic = stamina, which is somewhat contradictory. If Asta's magic is completely absent, does she have infinite Stamina or no Stamina completely? ( I just said the contradiction, of course, if you don't mean magic by mana, it changes. )

no, mana is different from magic, and magic is different from magic power, Tabata made it clear in the SBS of volume 4, mana is the fundamental aspect that is the source of magic power and magic, magic power would be something like stamina which comes from refinement and mana control, magic is the end product when combining magic power there is a "matrix" with the information of a spell

https://imgur.io/a/j8Q3vM0

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

First of all, you wrote the OP to Turkish, I recommend you to fix it.

Other than that... Mehh, i seriously don't see anything for Acausality or fate hax here.

Just seems a resistance to precognition at best.

would classify as acausality type 2, Asta's resistance to precognition comes from Lucius not being able to see him with his precognition, Lucius' precogonion is able to observe probable space-time continuums including his past, and also Asta was stated to have no future in the last chapter putting both these facts together Asta has no past and no future and also resists precognition, which is basically the description of type 2 acausality

 

[Georredannea15]

would classify as acausality type 2, Asta's resistance to precogonion comes from Lucius not being able to see him with his precogonion, Lucius' precogonion is able to observe probable space-time continuums including his past, and also Asta is stated to have no future in the future. last chapter putting both these facts together Asta has no past and no future and also resists precogonion, which is basically the description of type 2 acausality

(These statements obviously sound like a hyperbole) But if we really take it... Fate hax doesn't really work here, acausality Type 2 yes, maybe it can.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

(These statements obviously sound like a hyperbole) But if we really take it... Fate hax doesn't really work here, acausality Type 2 yes, maybe it can.

in a solo context the scans may seem hyperbolic, but if you read my other posts I think it will clarify them

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Asta doesn't exist in the mana stream which implies he doesn't exist in the time stream, and Asta's existence was totally unknown to Dante and Lucifero who were under the command of Lucius who has the ability to see space-time structures in full

https://vsbattles.com/threads/black-clover-cosmology-and-resistance.154200/

Lucius also calls Asta a "defect of this world "

That's not how Acausality type 2 works. Asta lacks Mana doesn't mean he lacks past. Need proof otherwise it's just Resistance to Precognition

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

That's not how Acausality type 2 works. Asta lacks Mana doesn't mean he lacks past. Need proof otherwise it's just Resistance to Precognition

Lucius' Precognition works on the basis of him reading the mana flow, Asta doesn't exist within that flow

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Lucius' Precognition works on the basis of him reading the mana flow, Asta doesn't exist within that flow

What precognition has anything to do with past? Also it's Lucius weakness for not being able to see Future of someone who lacks mana. Not that it makes astas past non existent.

Let me give you one more example by your lack Toji in JJk lacks cursed energy doesn't mean he lacks future and past
Same goes for Naruto and bleach if they lack some universal energy doesn't automatically means they lack their future and past

It needs more evidence than just saying Asta not appearing in Lucius future means lacks past also.

Also Lucius can only See 10K + futures. There may be futures where Asta does exists Lucius just can't see.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Lucius' Precognition works on the basis of him reading the mana flow, Asta doesn't exist within that flow

For one thing thats what Julius does not Lucious. Julius combines Mana zone and time acceleration to accelerates the mana around him and then read the flow of said mana accelerated to the future to sense the very near future while Lucious actually has precognition that allows him to see not only the far future but also possible futures which isn't the same as what Julius does.

Also the mana itself isn't the future Julius is just accelerating it and then reading the results so not having mana won't give you acausality at all

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

What precognition has anything to do with past? Also it's Lucius weakness for not being able to see Future of someone who lacks mana. Not that it makes astas past non existent.

Let me give you one more example by your lack Toji in JJk lacks cursed energy doesn't mean he lacks future and past
Same goes for Naruto and bleach if they lack some universal energy doesn't automatically means they lack their future and past

It needs more evidence than just saying Asta not appearing in Lucius future means lacks past also.

Also Lucius can only See 10K + futures. There may be futures where Asta does exists Lucius just can't see.

Lucius' precogonion allows him to see other spatiotemporal structures including his past into what that world might become,and it wouldn't be a weakness of Lucius Asta's ability if it isn't present within the fundamental part of the world that is mana

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Lucius' precogonion allows him to see other spatiotemporal structures including his past into what that world might become,and it wouldn't be a weakness of Lucius Asta's ability if it isn't present within the fundamental part of the world that is mana

For one thing thats what Julius does not Lucious. Julius combines Mana zone and time acceleration to accelerates the mana around him and then read the flow of said mana accelerated to the future to sense the very near future while Lucious actually has precognition that allows him to see not only the far future but also possible futures which isn't the same as what Julius does.

Also the mana itself isn't the future Julius is just accelerating it and then reading the results so not having mana won't give you acausality at all

^^

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

For one thing thats what Julius does not Lucious. Julius combines Mana zone and time acceleration to accelerates the mana around him and then read the flow of said mana accelerated to the future to sense the very near future while Lucious actually has precognition that allows him to see not only the far future but also possible futures which isn't the same as what Julius does.

Also the mana itself isn't the future Julius is just accelerating it and then reading the results so not having mana won't give you acausality at all

It's a valid point, I think it will explain how Lucius' precognition works the only thing I've done is assume that Julius's and Lucius's precognition should work the same way,Asta is not yet present within Lucius' precognition which allows him to see possible spatiotemporal structures including the past.

 

[Xinsignia1]

What precognition has anything to do with past? Also it's Lucius weakness for not being able to see Future of someone who lacks mana. Not that it makes astas past non existent.

Let me give you one more example by your lack Toji in JJk lacks cursed energy doesn't mean he lacks future and past
Same goes for Naruto and bleach if they lack some universal energy doesn't automatically means they lack their future and past

It needs more evidence than just saying Asta not appearing in Lucius future means lacks past also.

Also Lucius can only See 10K + futures. There may be futures where Asta does exists Lucius just can't see.

As a heads up, I don't think its ever been implied Lucius can't see Asta due to him being manaless because mana is already confirmed to be invisible for one, it can only be sensed. Lucius however, is actually seeing his visions with his eyes. Several things that don't have mana, appear in said visions and he could see them just fine.

I think people are conflating Julius's manazone ability with Lucius precognition which seem to be fundamentally different. One is literally just sensing the changes in accelerated mana, while the other one is visually absorbing the information.

Asta's resistance to precognition doesn't seem to be related to anti-magic or him being manaless. It seems to be something that's more innate to him.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

As a heads up, I don't think its ever been implied Lucius can't see Asta due to him being manaless because mana is already confirmed to be invisible for one, it can only be sensed. Lucius however, is actually seeing his visions with his eyes. Several things that don't have mana, appear in said visions and he could see them just fine.

I think people are conflating Julius's manazone ability with Lucius precognition which is fundamentally different.

Asta's resistance to precognition doesn't seem to be related to anti-magic or him being manaless. It seems to be something that's more innate to him.

Well I think I didn't properly tried to explain but if it's weakness or not or whatever what I was trying to say is Acausality type 2 needs statements and proof for not existing in past and future. Not just being not appearing in future on someone's precognition doesn't enough as a proof for that.

Currently scans only has proof for Resistance to Precognition

 

[Lewa]

Well I think I didn't properly tried to explain but if it's weakness or not or whatever what I was trying to say is Acausality type 2 needs statements and proof for not existing in past and future. Not just being not appearing in future on someone's precognition doesn't enough as a proof for that.

Currently scans only has proof for Resistance to Precognition

I totally agree with you bro I was told that he has no future, ok I have nothing against that. What about the Past? There is no expression, so I say insufficient.

 

[Xinsignia1]

Well I think I didn't properly tried to explain but if it's weakness or not or whatever what I was trying to say is Acausality type 2 needs statements and proof for not existing in past and future. Not just being not appearing in future on someone's precognition doesn't enough as a proof for that.

Currently scans only has proof for Resistance to Precognition

Yeah I'm not addressing acausality (there might be a chance better evidence could arrive in the future, based on how things may pan out, or perhaps even fate manip) but i'm just trying to ensure that folks don't assume it's a unique limitation to Lucius, rather than it being a unique quality that's innate to Asta, because assuming the former would suggest only mana based precog doesn't work on Asta which doesn't seem to be the case, It's seems precog in general whether it be mana based, or non-mana based since there are plenty of things that lack mana in BC that can still be sensed.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I totally agree with you bro I was told that he has no future, ok I have nothing against that. What about the Past? There is no expression, so I say insufficient.

Yes character needs evidence for not existing in both past and future. Just not existing in any past or future is not enough. So current evidence is insufficient.

Currently Asta can definitely get Precognition Resistance.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Yeah I'm not making a case for acausality (there's a chance better evidence can arrive in the future)

Yeah it's better to wait for future chapters. There is a Possibility Asta getting Fate Manipulation or Acasuality type 4 in future. But Current proof only gets him Resistance to Precognition.

but i'm just trying to ensure that folks don't assume it's a unique limitation to Lucius, rather than it being a unique quality that's innate to Asta, because assuming the former would suggest only mana based precog doesn't work on Asta which doesn't seem to be the case, It's seems precog in general whether it be mana based, or non-mana based since there are plenty of things that lack mana in BC that can still be sensed.

My bad. I get what your saying.

 

[Shmooply]

Yeah this seems more like Resistance to Precognition than anything else, disagree.
I'm not even sure why you're bringing up the fact he can bring back people from the dead. It would logically make more sense that if he had Fate Manipulation he would of had prevented them from dying in the first place, this just seems like him having Ressurection or Necromancy or whatever, I don't know the full context though.