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Im sorry guys......I shouldve been more clear in my comments.
This is all my fault that the arguments started coming up.
This is all my fault that the arguments started coming up.
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Arceus vs Dragonoid (redux)
- Thread starter The_real_cal_howard
- Start date
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What do you mean Cal can vote? I wanted him to suffer for his impatience. 
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Hello darkness my old friend...
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I support cal regarding the "negate everything". "It can negate any technique that exists in Bakugan." Techniques from my point of view are activated abilities. Which means that he could negate pokemon attacks like judgement or hyper beam. However he can't negate something which is an innate the character defining trait, like acausality, the ability to reality warp, etc. That really sounds like NLF.
As a side note: "You realize that the Gap between 2-C and 2-B is in the thousands right? It would be an NLF to think his power copy would work on a 2-B". The gap between 2-C and 2-B is rather multiple infinities as every single universe more adds another infinity of power, but I support your claim.
As a side note: "You realize that the Gap between 2-C and 2-B is in the thousands right? It would be an NLF to think his power copy would work on a 2-B". The gap between 2-C and 2-B is rather multiple infinities as every single universe more adds another infinity of power, but I support your claim.
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The ability to reality warp is not an innate ability, its just a normal offensive hax Arceus has so it can be nullifed. I can agree to stuff like Acasuality not getting nullified since its a natural innate part of Arceus's being, basically its just something naturally a part of him. It doesnt need to be activated, its just "there". But it depends on whether or not we consider stuff like that "abilities". And I still dont see why its an NLF. It would hold more water if Drago were fighting 2-B's or 2-A's but in this fight both are literally in the same tier. If anything Drago is an even stronger 2-C than Arceus is so there is no reason why it wouldnt work on him.
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The problem I have is the following. To negate something you need to see it activating/predict its activation/realise it is currently happening. The thing is you don't see something like reality warping activating (unless you make a stupid pose or tell your opponent), it just happens. What you see is the result of the warping you performed. In the bakugan series they activate abilities so that their opponents can see them, thats why they can be countered.
Also regarding defensive abilities: Dragos body is everything that makes up Drago, but Arceus body is but a tiny facet of the whole being. This is similar to the Millenniummon thing. Arceus cannot die unless all of OS is erased (OS is everywhere in the entire multiverse and along all timelines). But Drago does neither know that the OS exists nor where it is and what it really does.
Regarding Antimatter and dragos resurrection: Arceus could change the concept of antimatter in the following way. For every particle in existence there is an antiparticle in the same place. The result would be a permanent annihilation of all matter that exists. The moment Drago would resurrect he would get annihilated again.
Also regarding defensive abilities: Dragos body is everything that makes up Drago, but Arceus body is but a tiny facet of the whole being. This is similar to the Millenniummon thing. Arceus cannot die unless all of OS is erased (OS is everywhere in the entire multiverse and along all timelines). But Drago does neither know that the OS exists nor where it is and what it really does.
Regarding Antimatter and dragos resurrection: Arceus could change the concept of antimatter in the following way. For every particle in existence there is an antiparticle in the same place. The result would be a permanent annihilation of all matter that exists. The moment Drago would resurrect he would get annihilated again.
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That's not entirely true. There have been cases where Bakugan have nullified or blocked other Bakugan's abilities without them even seeing them activate. Same for copying and stealing abilities. Just because they usually see them activate first doesnt mean they need to see them activate in order to negate them at all. And considering Drago himself is a user of reality warping and has nullified or countered similar types of powers before he wouldnt be oblivous to what it does. Furthermore if he can replicate Arceus's abiltiies he'd gain Arceus's powers such as Pre-cog, so there is no reason why Drago wouldnt see it coming.
Actually thats wrong. This has yet to be added but Drago is basically the same thing like Millenniummon. Drago can't die unless the Perfect Core dies as if Drago's body dies he'll just be returned to the perfect core and revive and the Perfect Core lies in a higher dimension than that of Vestroia so Arceus has no way in figuring out where the core lies. Not to mention he has ressurection as well. And as far as Drago not knowing what it is, he has stuff like Telepathy to figure it out so he would just read Arceus's mind to find that information out if it works like that.
But Arceus's abilities would likely just get nullified, blocked or stolen so he would have no chance in doing anything like that. In addition, since Drago can copy Arceus's powers to even greater extents using Evil Copy, Drago could just change back or manipulate the concept of Antimatter so that it works in his favor, not Arceus's.
Basically, unless its stuff like Immortality or Regen which are natural defensive haxes, Arceus's offensive hax is getting no selled here by Drago. And even thats debatable as now i've uncovered another Bakugan ability where it can prevent the opponent from using any of their defensive abiltiies.....
Also question: Could Arceus's incomplete form come back from being sent in-between Time and Space? If not, then Drago could also do that just as Code Eve did in the series.
Actually thats wrong. This has yet to be added but Drago is basically the same thing like Millenniummon. Drago can't die unless the Perfect Core dies as if Drago's body dies he'll just be returned to the perfect core and revive and the Perfect Core lies in a higher dimension than that of Vestroia so Arceus has no way in figuring out where the core lies. Not to mention he has ressurection as well. And as far as Drago not knowing what it is, he has stuff like Telepathy to figure it out so he would just read Arceus's mind to find that information out if it works like that.
But Arceus's abilities would likely just get nullified, blocked or stolen so he would have no chance in doing anything like that. In addition, since Drago can copy Arceus's powers to even greater extents using Evil Copy, Drago could just change back or manipulate the concept of Antimatter so that it works in his favor, not Arceus's.
Basically, unless its stuff like Immortality or Regen which are natural defensive haxes, Arceus's offensive hax is getting no selled here by Drago. And even thats debatable as now i've uncovered another Bakugan ability where it can prevent the opponent from using any of their defensive abiltiies.....
Also question: Could Arceus's incomplete form come back from being sent in-between Time and Space? If not, then Drago could also do that just as Code Eve did in the series.
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- Thread starter
- #48
Damn, Kukui. Back at it again with the NLFs.
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Stealing precog, stealing concept manipulation. It's kind of getting out of hand with stealing and negating everything. Also should he be able to take them (which I still don't believe is possible) he would have no idea how to use them. Just because you suddenly have an ability it does not mean that you understand it or that you can use it.
I don't know how the in-between time and space thing works, so I can only answer with an I guess he should be. The OS can however create a new body to fight should the other one be unable to return.
I don't know how the in-between time and space thing works, so I can only answer with an I guess he should be. The OS can however create a new body to fight should the other one be unable to return.
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- Thread starter
- #50
tfw you're actually seeing the same arguments for Yukari here.
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Wrong. Contestir copied Drago and Coredems abilties and knew how to use them perfectly when transforming into them. In fact, since they use it even better than the users do, that supports it even more. And if stealing/copying abilities didnt mean they knew how to use them, then Atomic Brave for example wouldnt have the abilities apply to the user and benefit them if they didnt know how to use them to be beneficial.
Doesnt the OS only create a new body for Arceus when the old one is destroyed?
Doesnt the OS only create a new body for Arceus when the old one is destroyed?
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- Thread starter
- #52
Was this Contestir's first time meeting them? Besides, Drago's abilities are straightforward until he gets the abilities of all Bakugan iirc.
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Basically. Its kind of a yes and no.
While Contestir did meet Drago before showing Evil Copy, it was his first time facing Lumino Drago, not Helix Drago since, well, both have different abilities from each other due to one being a higher evolution. And the first time Contestir fought Lumino Drago, despite it being the first encounter, he could still accurately copy Drago's abilities down to the tiniest spec and detail.
But you have a point on the straightfoward part.
While Contestir did meet Drago before showing Evil Copy, it was his first time facing Lumino Drago, not Helix Drago since, well, both have different abilities from each other due to one being a higher evolution. And the first time Contestir fought Lumino Drago, despite it being the first encounter, he could still accurately copy Drago's abilities down to the tiniest spec and detail.
But you have a point on the straightfoward part.
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To be honest, I think this fight should be on hold once again.
Strangely I got the urge to rewatch Bakugan and im finally hitting S4. So of course, more Drago revisions are coming up. As lovely as this battle is (xD), it would be unfair to Drago since this would technically be somewhat outdated.
Of course on the other hand, I find it kind of annoying to keep opening and closing Drago's profile at such a rate so I plan to relook through S4 to try and find anything to add for Drago one last time for a while so we don't have to keep constantly revising it.
Is that okay with you Cal?
Strangely I got the urge to rewatch Bakugan and im finally hitting S4. So of course, more Drago revisions are coming up. As lovely as this battle is (xD), it would be unfair to Drago since this would technically be somewhat outdated.
Of course on the other hand, I find it kind of annoying to keep opening and closing Drago's profile at such a rate so I plan to relook through S4 to try and find anything to add for Drago one last time for a while so we don't have to keep constantly revising it.
Is that okay with you Cal?
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- Thread starter
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I don't care.
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I will vouch for Kukui and say that Drago is geting Low-Godly Regen.
However, Cal is correct that you are pushing it. Yes Drago can pretty much survive a hit from any one or more attacks from Arceus. But he can only negate so much.
What he cannot Negate:
Reality Warping- Not an ability card, never was, doesn't count.
Conceptual Manipulation- See above
Acausality- See above.
Need I go on? Though he can nullify nullification...He actually did that on screen to Naga.
However, Cal is correct that you are pushing it. Yes Drago can pretty much survive a hit from any one or more attacks from Arceus. But he can only negate so much.
What he cannot Negate:
Reality Warping- Not an ability card, never was, doesn't count.
Conceptual Manipulation- See above
Acausality- See above.
Need I go on? Though he can nullify nullification...He actually did that on screen to Naga.
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Acausality I agree with but why not Conceptual Manipulation of Reality Warping? They are both offensive hax that should be able to be nullified, at least by ppl in Drago's tier. And actually there are some feats of nullifying reality warping if it counts:
-Drago used Deagon Hummer to nullify dimensional creation, as in just using it literally made a dimension vanish, which should be reality warping in a way i think.
-In Mechtanium Surge theres a Ventus bakugan that can throw attacks of distorted space at the opponent.
-Technically speaking, Naga was warping the frabric of Vestroia to metge it together with the human world and this continued even after Naga was defeated. Drago was able to easily counter it with his own reality warping by recreating vestroia and seperating the 2 universes.
-The original Dragonoid and Dharaknoid literallt split the frabric of the universe into 2 universes due to being too strong and for obvious reasons this would apply to Drago.
Also, its no ones fault (likely mine if anything) but i think there is a misunderstanding here. There should be a difference between Nullifying attacks and Blocking/Sealing them, as in preventing abilities from activating.
-Drago used Deagon Hummer to nullify dimensional creation, as in just using it literally made a dimension vanish, which should be reality warping in a way i think.
-In Mechtanium Surge theres a Ventus bakugan that can throw attacks of distorted space at the opponent.
-Technically speaking, Naga was warping the frabric of Vestroia to metge it together with the human world and this continued even after Naga was defeated. Drago was able to easily counter it with his own reality warping by recreating vestroia and seperating the 2 universes.
-The original Dragonoid and Dharaknoid literallt split the frabric of the universe into 2 universes due to being too strong and for obvious reasons this would apply to Drago.
Also, its no ones fault (likely mine if anything) but i think there is a misunderstanding here. There should be a difference between Nullifying attacks and Blocking/Sealing them, as in preventing abilities from activating.
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I make a Drago vs Arceus thread and it barely gets any replies. Cal makes one and 50+ replies.
Am I doing something wrong?
Anyway, I'm not gonna vote yet, given Kukui said that there will be Drago revisions on the way. But out of curiosity, how much above baseline 2-C are each of them? Given that Drago has so many 2-C forms - each more powerful than the next - I was under the impression he'd one-shot, or at least be stronger than Arceus.
Am I doing something wrong?
Anyway, I'm not gonna vote yet, given Kukui said that there will be Drago revisions on the way. But out of curiosity, how much above baseline 2-C are each of them? Given that Drago has so many 2-C forms - each more powerful than the next - I was under the impression he'd one-shot, or at least be stronger than Arceus.
