Arceus vs Chara

[DontTalk]

So in other words you thought i meant Arceus can manipulate ALL concepts just because he has conceptual manipulation?

No, what I think is that you imply that because he has conceptual manipulation, he can change and destroy already existing concepts. Something which he to my knowledge doesn't have showings for, but just for creating them and beings that represent them.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

They are the concepts of space-time. There's no difference between what they manipulate and what they are. I'm not completely certain what you mean by the alteration of their nature. The nature of their existence is the flowing and expansion of time and space. Technically, even their most casual hax abilities are contrary to their nature.

It was noted that if Giratinaina ceased to exist, so would its world of antimatter which is the closest instance to what you're referring to I can think of right now. This is the only instance such a thing is noted.

The Lake Trio have also shown the ability to destroy and manipulate the concepts they embody (such as Uxie removing an individual's entire sense of self, Mespirit an individual's feelings and Azelf stripping someone of their will to do anything as well as combining these concepts to make spirit and distributing them throughout the multiverse) so saying Arceus is the only one with Conceptual Manipulation can be deemed untrue.

(I had no idea people are still using that).

 

[Pokémon_Trainer_Jacob]

Arceus destroys without a second thought. This guy has dealt with much worse threats casually.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

So that means Chara can't kill Arceus do to Attack Reflection and Negation, while he can't kill Chara due to it having Mid-Godly Regen. Leaning more to Inconclusive here.

Chara survived the destruction of everything (the game) and Arceus created everything (the Pokemon Multiverse).

Long story short, they both can exist in true nothingness and have no way of killing each other.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Arceus could just erase his form from existence or just OHK him with Perish Song.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Arceus could just erase his form from existence or just OHK him with Perish Song.

Chara has already returned from being erased from existence, and Perish Song would also KO Arceus going by game mechanics, though assuming it would work on either of them is faulty at best.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Arceus could just erase his form from existence or just OHK him with Perish Song.

Chara has already returned from being erased from existence, and Perish Song would also KO Arceus going by game mechanics, though assuming it would work on either of them is faulty at best.

We have OHK via Perish Song listed on his powers and abilities though and Arceus could always just use the move and then go to a different universe where it wont effect him but only Chara.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

We have OHK via Perish Song listed on his powers and abilities though and Arceus could always just use the move and then go to a different universe where it wont effect him but only Chara.

How do you kill a concept? You can't.

You can erase a concept.

Except Chara has already returned from being erased.

And like Arceus, is trans-universal.

 

[LordAizenSama]

How do you kill a concept? You can't.

Shiki says hello

And I see the abuse of Perish song has begun. Keikaku Doori

 

[The_Everlasting]

How do you kill a concept? You can't.

Shiki says hello

As does Dante Alighieri.

 

[Aparajita]

Through his high level conceptual maniuplation (creating Time, Space, Victory, etc) can't Arceus just make "Determination" no longer a concept?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Shiki says hello

"You can erase a concept."

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Actually now that I think about it, cant Arceus just manipulate Chara's will into either not fighting or just out right giving up?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

How do you kill a concept? You can't.
You can erase a concept.

Except Chara has already returned from being erased.

And like Arceus, is trans-universal.

I didnt say any of this Azath.

 

[LordAizenSama]

"You can erase a concept."

>Kill Concepts

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

We have OHK via Perish Song listed on his powers and abilities though

Abilities only go so far. Space-Time Manipulation, for example, may seem impressive in most cases but unless they have the feats to support it, using it in a vsbattle setting against another tier 2 entity is as elegant and effective as hitting a boulder with the handle of your hammer.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Actually now that I think about it, cant Arceus just manipulate Chara's will into either not fighting or just out right giving up?

If Chara existed on a lower scale than they do, then probably.

But they don't.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

>Kill Concepts

>"kill"

>quotation marks

Shiki is not literally pulling out a gun and shooting a concept in the head.

Though that would be ******* metal.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Hmm well him creating more and more Dialga, Palkia and Giratina's to aid him here against Chara is still an option though.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Shiki is not literally pulling out a gun and shooting a concept in the head.

Though that would be ******* metal.

You're half right, she uses a sword instead of a gun.

She literally does kill concepts.

EDIT:Sorry to everyone for detailing this thread though 0.0

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

You're half right, she uses a sword instead of a gun.

She literally does kill concepts.

EDIT:Sorry to everyone for detailing this thread though 0.0

How dare you give her sword credit for her cool anime eyes ability?

-Azathoth said as he derailed the thread-

But yeah, staying on the vote for inconclusive.

 

[Blahblah9755]

Hmm well him creating more and more Dialga, Palkia and Giratina's to aid him here against Chara is still an option though.

The creation and lake trio are a part of him, so no matter how many he summoned or created their power wouldn't add up to his.

Also Determination's time rewinding likely works on a second temporal dimension, since Flowey is able to do it after destroying the multiverse and its time.

That being said possession and slashes from a knife would be negated by the plates (ghost and normal type respectively), and Chara's taking the Player's soul required the Player's consent, so they have no feats of forcibly soul manipulating someone on this level. So neither of them can kill one another, it's inconclusive imo.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

The creation and lake trio are a part of him, so no matter how many he summoned or created their power wouldn't add up to his.

Also Determination's time rewinding likely works on a second temporal dimension, since Flowey is able to do it after destroying the multiverse and its time.

Right but do not forget the Creation Trio each are also Likely 2-B, same thing as Chara so it would be Arceus, a solid 2-B and possibly higher than that and a huge team of Dialga, Palkia and Giratina's at once which would all be equal to Chara in power as Likely 2-B. It's not them adding to Arceus's power its them giving him a numbers of advantage while being equally as strong as Chara. Reason i didnt mention the lake trio is they would get stomped instantly and pointless to add in.

 

[Talonmask]

Chara is "likely 2-B" that destroyed countless timelines, they are definitely superior to the Creation Trio, to the point that Flowey being much stronger than Chara led to them getting a rating of 2-A, so saying Chara is inferior because of a likely rating is negligible.

 

[Blahblah9755]

Chara has all the determination of the player, who can perform a true reset, and should be comparable to neutral a Frisk, who can just barely harm Flowey, who's one of the only finite 2A beings on the wiki, in other words, he should be far higher on the 2B scale than most characters, same as Arceus.

And the creation trio still can't do anything about determination and mid-godly Regenerationn. At best they can deal with his type 8 immortality by destroying his concept, but even that's doubtful, since his concept supposedly exists even beyond the scope of the main Undertale multiverse.

 

[Aparajita]

Through his high level conceptual maniuplation (creating Time, Space, Victory, etc) can't Arceus just make "Determination" no longer a concept?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I think someone above mentioned that Determination is way above Willpower, which was what Arceus created.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

To be fair, Frisk at Max Determination survived fighting Asriel in his two forms, both of them literally being INFINITELY (hence the 2-A rating) above Frisk, but Frisk refused to be erased.

Not saying Max Determination Frisk = Post Genocide Chara, but if Frisk can survive fighting something literally infinitely above them in power, then Chara should survive against Arceus since their the same Tier.

Inconclusive for the fact Arceus can definitely hurt Chara, but Chara can survive whatever is thrown at them.

 

[Penguinkingpin]

Inconclusive due to reasons stated above, Arceus could hurt and kill Chara, but Chara, due to mid godly Regenerationn, would come back.

 

[Typhlosion130]

Humanity loses. Chara is genocidal and Arceus is kind of a dick.
As I said before, leaning towards stalemate/inconclusive. Conceptual beings are nothing new to Arceus, but Chara is extremely resilient once they've reached their absolute and taken the Player's SOUL, being unaffected by even True Resets and remaining in control. I also don't think Arceus could just unmake Chara in order to win, since it was the Player's DETERMINATION which brought them back from nonexistence, and now they're in full control of that. On the other hand, I don't think Chara is going to be able to seriously wound Arceus, and even if they could, Arceus has multiple ways to recover from it. Heck, even Palkia and Dialga showed the ability to bring back things that had been erased entirely, so Arceus logically should be able to do so, as well.

In conclusion, Llama God and MURDER_CHILD.exe probably just sit in a void for a while with Chara blasting Linkin Park.

Yea that sounds about right. in conclusive is my vote.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I agree with Marvel. Inconclusive has my vote

 

[Typhlosion130]

To be fair, Frisk at Max Determination survived fighting Asriel in his two forms, both of them literally being INFINITELY (hence the 2-A rating) above Frisk, but Frisk refused to be erased.
Not saying Max Determination Frisk = Post Genocide Chara, but if Frisk can survive fighting something literally infinitely above them in power, then Chara should survive against Arceus since their the same Tier.

Inconclusive for the fact Arceus can definitely hurt Chara, but Chara can survive whatever is thrown at them.

I need to get that changed. Frisk didn't refuse to be erased. His power over the time line was simply just above that of asriel thus asriel couldn't truly erase it.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

It's true that Asriel didn't have complete control of the timeline but I wouldn't say it was inferior. First, "But it refused" appears after you die in the fight and your soul repairs itself. This is clearly in reference to the soul, not the timeline. Asriel also, did literally erase the timeline.

 

[Blahblah9755]

To add to Mighty's point, control of the timeline generally goes hand in hand with the amount of determination in Undertale, and the being with the most determination can control the timeline through the power of save and load, but in the Asriel fight, neither Frisk nor Asriel could save and load, implying that both had equal determination, and control over the (currently nonexistent) timeline.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Chara is "likely 2-B" that destroyed countless timelines, they are definitely superior to the Creation Trio, to the point that Flowey being much stronger than Chara led to them getting a rating of 2-A, so saying Chara is inferior because of a likely rating is negligible.

If thats the case then why isnt Chara listed to be a 2-A or at least a solid 2-B then? He definitely wouldnt be doubted in either ratings if those feats we're legit, otherwise the Likely 2-B rating from his profile would be changed, or should be changed as of now.

Also, the "countless" timelines thing is not definitely above the creation trio because the amount of timelines and universes in Pokemon are unknown, possibly being infinite or greatly finite in number.

 

[Talonmask]

A likely rating doesn't automatically mean someone is weaker, stop using that as an argument. Omega Flowey is a finite 2-A for being stronger than Chara because Chara is likely on the higher end of the tier 2-B.

Yes, but we currently know that there's only a finite amount until stated otherwise.

 

[DavideKirby]

Chara solos the Pokéverse!

 

[BruceTheBatman]

No.

 

[DavideKirby]

No.

Arceus isn't so strong!It was never show that he can destroy multiuniverse,he hardly destroyed a city and a meteor and was near to be killed by the silver water!I think it shoul be 5-C , Meteor level,and it wasn't a PIS,that scene was official!

 

[WeeklyBattles]

xD that downplay