Anti-Powerscaling Tour De Force Thread

[BloodyBloodwork365]

Simply put.

Fire denatures cells (chemicals even organic ones are sensitive to temperature)

And if there's no heat resistance then fire manip is a good way to deal damage even ignoring energy output because of its nature and how organic matter interacts with the temperature

It's treated as dura neg

I just think it's a bit weird, is all. If you want to further discuss this, I have a versus thread in on this forum partially dedicated to this exact topic, which is itself based on a more official versus thread. Incidentally, all three characters involved are from shows I like, but that's neither here nor there.
As for your own grievances...I don't yet know what to make of all this. I apologize for butting in earlier, since it seems this isn't the 'criticize VSBattles here!' thread I thought it was lol

 

[KirbyFan03]

I just think it's a bit weird, is all. If you want to further discuss this, I have a versus thread in on this forum partially dedicated to this exact topic, which is itself based on a more official versus thread. Incidentally, all three characters involved are from shows I like, but that's neither here nor there.
As for your own grievances...I don't yet know what to make of all this. I apologize for butting in earlier, since it seems this isn't the 'criticize VSBattles here!' thread I thought it was lol

I... don't have any grievances?

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

I... don't have any grievances?

Oh. F***. Sorry, confused you for OP.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

=Someone shared this to me on my Discord and I hopped on to comment because I thought it was funny. I don't even disagree 100% with the parts of this essay I read. I DO agree that scaling people based on "Consistent High Ends" is blatant favoritism and not actually an attempt to model consistency. I DO agree that "AP =/= DC" is a thought-terminating cliche and pretty much just fanfiction 90% of the time. I DO you can't just assume that because a character can manipulate the weather or create matter that this ability scales to physical strength. I even agree with the point that even if a character destroys a planet ON SCREEN that doesn't necessary translate to strength. A lot of fiction treats planets as basically giant bombs that can self-detonate if you do something completely immaterial to what is actually required to make a planet explode in real life, such as "disrupting the core" or "absorbing its lifeforce" or even "causing volcanos to erupt".

He totally loses me though because he writes in an incredibly pompous "I am objectively right and intellectually superior to you" voice that reminds me of pretentious rationalist losers like Eliezer Yudkowsky (who also wrote several hundred thousand words explaining how he was so intelligent, except in his case he positioned himself as being more correct than the entire history of human philosophy). I also don't actually believe the OP believes in the "Kinesian Model" he describes, that basically just reads as someone trying to frame themselves as being intellectually superior for being really into hard science fiction and rationalist fanfics, and then making fun of every fictional world that doesn't abide by 100% realistic physics.

I also disagree with the attempt to frame something that's just a stupid make-pretend fanfic as objective scientific analysis, to disregard all considerations of tone, themes and authorial intent into the trash. When I see a calculation determining that because a character's punch displaced a sky's worth of clouds they were generating 1 gigaton of energy, I don't actually believe that outside of the make-believe parameters of a battleboarding thread. I know there are a lot of immature powerscalers who put a lot of stock into their person over how strong their favorite goat is, and get irrationally angry if you disagree with their "objectively true scaling", but those people are losers that should be ignored.

Basically I think the author of this essay could get a lot more sympathy if he didn't wrote in the cadence of an asshole.

 

[KirbyFan03]

=Someone shared this to me on my Discord and I hopped on to comment because I thought it was funny. I don't even disagree 100% with the parts of this essay I read. I DO agree that scaling people based on "Consistent High Ends" is blatant favoritism and not actually an attempt to model consistency. I DO agree that "AP =/= DC" is a thought-terminating cliche and pretty much just fanfiction 90% of the time. I DO you can't just assume that because a character can manipulate the weather or create matter that this ability scales to physical strength. I even agree with the point that even if a character destroys a planet ON SCREEN that doesn't necessary translate to strength. A lot of fiction treats planets as basically giant bombs that can self-detonate if you do something completely immaterial to what is actually required to make a planet explode in real life, such as "disrupting the core" or "absorbing its lifeforce" or even "causing volcanos to erupt".

He totally loses me though because he writes in an incredibly pompous "I am objectively right and intellectually superior to you" voice that reminds me of pretentious rationalist losers like Eliezer Yudkowsky (who also wrote several hundred thousand words explaining how he was so intelligent, except in his case he positioned himself as being more correct than the entire history of human philosophy). I also don't actually believe the OP believes in the "Kinesian Model" he describes, that basically just reads as someone trying to frame themselves as being intellectually superior for being really into hard science fiction and rationalist fanfics, and then making fun of every fictional world that doesn't abide by 100% realistic physics.

I also disagree with the attempt to frame something that's just a stupid make-pretend fanfic as objective scientific analysis, to disregard all considerations of tone, themes and authorial intent into the trash. When I see a calculation determining that because a character's punch displaced a sky's worth of clouds they were generating 1 gigaton of energy, I don't actually believe that outside of the make-believe parameters of a battleboarding thread. I know there are a lot of immature powerscalers who put a lot of stock into their person over how strong their favorite goat is, and get irrationally angry if you disagree with their "objectively true scaling", but those people are losers that should be ignored.

Basically I think the author of this essay could get a lot more sympathy if he didn't wrote in the cadence of an asshole.

"Consisent High Ends" is also a bit oxymoronic imo XD

 

[ALEPHGOAT]

=Someone shared this to me on my Discord and I hopped on to comment because I thought it was funny. I don't even disagree 100% with the parts of this essay I read. I DO agree that scaling people based on "Consistent High Ends" is blatant favoritism and not actually an attempt to model consistency. I DO agree that "AP =/= DC" is a thought-terminating cliche and pretty much just fanfiction 90% of the time. I DO you can't just assume that because a character can manipulate the weather or create matter that this ability scales to physical strength. I even agree with the point that even if a character destroys a planet ON SCREEN that doesn't necessary translate to strength. A lot of fiction treats planets as basically giant bombs that can self-detonate if you do something completely immaterial to what is actually required to make a planet explode in real life, such as "disrupting the core" or "absorbing its lifeforce" or even "causing volcanos to erupt".

He totally loses me though because he writes in an incredibly pompous "I am objectively right and intellectually superior to you" voice that reminds me of pretentious rationalist losers like Eliezer Yudkowsky (who also wrote several hundred thousand words explaining how he was so intelligent, except in his case he positioned himself as being more correct than the entire history of human philosophy). I also don't actually believe the OP believes in the "Kinesian Model" he describes, that basically just reads as someone trying to frame themselves as being intellectually superior for being really into hard science fiction and rationalist fanfics, and then making fun of every fictional world that doesn't abide by 100% realistic physics.

I also disagree with the attempt to frame something that's just a stupid make-pretend fanfic as objective scientific analysis, to disregard all considerations of tone, themes and authorial intent into the trash. When I see a calculation determining that because a character's punch displaced a sky's worth of clouds they were generating 1 gigaton of energy, I don't actually believe that outside of the make-believe parameters of a battleboarding thread. I know there are a lot of immature powerscalers who put a lot of stock into their person over how strong their favorite goat is, and get irrationally angry if you disagree with their "objectively true scaling", but those people are losers that should be ignored.

Basically I think the author of this essay could get a lot more sympathy if he didn't wrote in the cadence of an asshole.

Yeah I absolutely 100% need to fix my tone. I was acting too immature and intellectually supremacist. Thankfully I've changed a lot.
About the Kinesian Model: I used to believe in it, and I use it as a way to basically debunk real high end (1-A, infinite, etc) scaling.

I only read "DC Debunk" part(Because other parts were hilariously joke) to see if I can gain something to nuke verse. But damn OP thinks DC 1-A is R > F lmaooo

I would highly recommend OP to touch grass

I'm sorry. All powerscalers need to touch grass. You are not excluded.
Anyway do you have any serious counter arguments against my DC debunk, or...Because I've also addressed Old 1-A DC, and that doesn't work either due to the higher parts of the cosmology being bound by time-space (Namely, change happens and physical beings can walk around in there).

 

[KirbyFan03]

Yeah I absolutely 100% need to fix my tone. I was acting too immature and intellectually supremacist. Thankfully I've changed a lot.

I'm sorry. All powerscalers need to touch grass. You are not excluded.
Anyway do you have any serious counter arguments against my DC debunk, or...Because I've also addressed Old 1-A DC, and that doesn't work either due to the higher parts of the cosmology being bound by time-space (Namely, change happens and physical beings can walk around in there).

I... can smell the pretentious XD

Try being more chill? Even if it hurts your feelings holding back I promise you it's better than sounding like an ass

 

[ALEPHGOAT]

I... can smell the pretentious XD

Yeah this document was made when I was really ******* angry at powerscalers.

Try being more chill? Even if it hurts your feelings holding back I promise you it's better than sounding like an ass

I think I can change the wording. I just need to go over and find the most toxic parts and rewrite them, and then go on to less toxic but still toxic parts, etc.

 

[Huesito88]

Yeah I absolutely 100% need to fix my tone. I was acting too immature and intellectually supremacist. Thankfully I've changed a lot.

Changed in the last 2 days?

 

[KirbyFan03]

Yeah this document was made when I was really ******* angry at powerscalers.

I think I can change the wording. I just need to go over and find the most toxic parts and rewrite them, and then go on to less toxic but still toxic parts, etc.

are you in the rappterverse? I'll be happy debating you there

 

[ALEPHGOAT]

Changed in the last 2 days?

By the time I posted this on VSBW I had ran out of discussion topics because my main source of fun in this hobby was debunking arguments. The only thing that's left is to refine the Tour De Force, but that's not discussing anything new.

are you in the rappterverse? I'll be happy debating you there

About what?

 

[KirbyFan03]

By the time I posted this on VSBW I had ran out of discussion topics because my main source of fun in this hobby was debunking arguments. The only thing that's left is to refine the Tour De Force, but that's not discussing anything new.

About what?

The DC stuff

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

By the time I posted this on VSBW I had ran out of discussion topics because my main source of fun in this hobby was debunking arguments. The only thing that's left is to refine the Tour De Force, but that's not discussing anything new.

About what?

I've read through a decent portion of the blog, and part of that caught my interest. I'll paste my comment there into here:

"Reading into this, I couldn't help but notice that the 'Kinesian logic' you use destroys not only powerscaling...but also practically the entirety of fiction.

I don't think descending into madness and erasing the concept of suspension of disbelief is a good way to say 'checkmate, powerscalers'.



And yes, it is fanfiction. By-definition it is fanfiction. These characters will never interact. But it's lazy to say that the hobby itself should die or be killed by logic because it is fanfiction. It's lazy to just say 'I have decided this character has this power with no proof!!!!', and most people do not approach the hobby with that mentality anyway. They want to go with what they see and what they can extrapolate, not whatever random powers they can give the character to make them win.



I could, for instance, say that Vincent Volaju from Cowboy Bebop is Tier 0 just because I say so, and declare that he has every hax in existence, again just because I say so. You would probably say that that's just as valid as what VSBattles or similar communities do, and I would say that it is unbelievably lazy and boring. It's the exact reason I'm currently pulling my hair out over the idea that all fire across all of fiction can somehow forcibly burn any character by its temperature, no matter how much energy, AKA heat, they should be able to resist, and I'm pulling my hair out over that even though it would let me get sneaky wins with Fire Manipulating characters that I really like."

 

[ALEPHGOAT]

I've read through a decent portion of the blog, and part of that caught my interest. I'll paste my comment there into here:

"Reading into this, I couldn't help but notice that the 'Kinesian logic' you use destroys not only powerscaling...but also practically the entirety of fiction.

I don't think descending into madness and erasing the concept of suspension of disbelief is a good way to say 'checkmate, powerscalers'

You haven't seen nothing yet. I debunked the concept of canon. That's how insane the Tour De Force gets.

.



And yes, it is fanfiction. By-definition it is fanfiction. These characters will never interact. But it's lazy to say that the hobby itself should die or be killed by logic because it is fanfiction. It's lazy to just say 'I have decided this character has this power with no proof!!!!', and most people do not approach the hobby with that mentality anyway. They want to go with what they see and what they can extrapolate, not whatever random powers they can give the character to make them win.

Actually wrote a huge section about what powerscaling is. tl;dr it's a game like chess where nothing is determined by opinion save by choosing the rules. and the rooting of the rules (I proved fictional causality isn't real)

I could, for instance, say that Vincent Volaju from Cowboy Bebop is Tier 0 just because I say so, and declare that he has every hax in existence, again just because I say so. You would probably say that that's just as valid as what VSBattles or similar communities do, and I would say that it is unbelievably lazy and boring. It's the exact reason I'm currently pulling my hair out over the idea that all fire across all of fiction can somehow forcibly burn any character by its temperature, no matter how much energy, AKA heat, they should be able to resist, and I'm pulling my hair out over that even though it would let me get sneaky wins with Fire Manipulating characters that I really like."

Well there's two answers.
Fake answer: Rules of powerscaling disallow it
Real answer: Rules of fanfiction allow it

 

[Qurbonboev]

I'm currently pulling my hair out over the idea that all fire across all of fiction can somehow forcibly burn any character by its temperature, no matter how much energy, AKA heat

Technically they would need some minimum energy to burn opponents (human wouldn't get burned by high temperatures at 200 km due to low density of atmosphere), though realistically most fire users gonna have enough of it.

Energy -> heat is true IRL, any amount of received kinetic energy would turn to received heat. But why would this apply consistently in fiction, where usually punch is not powerful cus of its kinetic energy, but due to it being enhanced by some powerful supernatural energy system (Ki, Chakra, cursed energy, nen)

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

You haven't seen nothing yet. I debunked the concept of canon. That's how insane the Tour De Force gets.

Actually wrote a huge section about what powerscaling is. tl;dr it's a game like chess where nothing is determined by opinion save by choosing the rules. and the rooting of the rules (I proved fictional causality isn't real)

Well there's two answers.
Fake answer: Rules of powerscaling disallow it
Real answer: Rules of fanfiction allow it

You can say what you want, but unless you're doing all this for fun, I'm going to have to assume you had a really bad experience with an extremely toxic part of the community, and subsequently have decided that all powerscalers are illiterate, drooling, mouthbreathing morons. This 'debunk' is so hilariously over-the-top that I really think the correct response is 'who the **** cares? This is a hobby. We might take what you say into account to try and make things make more sense, but we're not deleting our entire wiki and disbanding our entire community over what one guy says'.

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

Technically they would need some minimum energy to burn opponents (human wouldn't get burned by high temperatures at 200 km due to low density of atmosphere), though realistically most fire users gonna have enough of it.

Energy -> heat is true IRL, any amount of received kinetic energy would turn to received heat. But why would this apply consistently in fiction, where usually punch is not powerful cus of its kinetic energy, but due to it being enhanced by some powerful supernatural energy system (Ki, Chakra, cursed energy, nen)

I just think it leads to some dumb outcomes, like any random Fire Nation soldier burning 90% of Bleach to death in equalized speed and explicit heat resistances turned off. It seems to essentially say that all fire in fiction is as potent as Yamamoto's Zanka no Tachi, which is so obviously not the case that I shouldn't even need to say it.

 

[ALEPHGOAT]

You can say what you want, but unless you're doing all this for fun, I'm going to have to assume you had a really bad experience with an extremely toxic part of the community, and subsequently have decided that all powerscalers are illiterate, drooling, mouthbreathing morons.

You're right. I did have a really bad experience with toxic parts of the community. I don't extend that to non-toxic parts, though.

This 'debunk' is so hilariously over-the-top that I really think the correct response is 'who the **** cares? This is a hobby. We might take what you say into account to try and make things make more sense, but we're not deleting our entire wiki and disbanding our entire community over what one guy says'.

The powerscaling community is over the top in the first place tbh. Most writers if asked will just say something like what Stan Lee said. The Tour De Force affects you more, the more objective you think powerscaling is.

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

You're right. I did have a really bad experience with toxic parts of the community. I don't extend that to non-toxic parts, though.

The powerscaling community is over the top in the first place tbh. Most writers if asked will just say something like what Stan Lee said. The Tour De Force affects you more, the more objective you think powerscaling is.

The writer still has to justify in-universe why the character wins, if they want to keep credibility. Look at how people see the Punisher these days lol

 

[ALEPHGOAT]

The writer still has to justify in-universe why the character wins, if they want to keep credibility. Look at how people see the Punisher these days lol

That's a self imposed limitation not an actual law of fiction itself. I can write Teletubbies beating all fictional characters and nothing can stop me because there's no transfictional set of laws.
The sooner powerscalers realize this, the better they get.

 

[Huesito88]

That's a self imposed limitation not an actual law of fiction itself. I can write Teletubbies beating all fictional characters and nothing can stop me.

It wouldn't be added to the wiki

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

That's a self imposed limitation not an actual law of fiction itself. I can write Teletubbies beating all fictional characters and nothing can stop me because there's no transfictional set of laws.
The sooner powerscalers realize this, the better they get.

People still prefer when fights makes sense. Including me, who does not think a character with regular fire should be able to burn a character with dramatically higher durability than substances shown to not be burned by said fire.

 

[ALEPHGOAT]

People still prefer when fights makes sense. Including me, who does not think a character with regular fire should be able to burn a character with dramatically higher durability than substances shown to not be burned by said fire.

I don't know how to feel about the fire thing but I do agree that some things in powerscaling are stupid. Case in point: 1-A Marvel. Silver Surfer thread just gave me more material to use against 1-A Marvel. Kirbons.

 

[KirbyFan03]

People still prefer when fights makes sense. Including me, who does not think a character with regular fire should be able to burn a character with dramatically higher durability than substances shown to not be burned by said fire.

Durability doesn't matter it's the materials that matter

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

Durability doesn't matter it's the materials that matter

Which still leads to a random Fire Nation soldier oneshotting Byakuya Kuchiki in equal speed.

 

[KirbyFan03]

Which still leads to a random Fire Nation soldier oneshotting Byakuya Kuchiki in equal speed.

Exactly. It's weird but it makes sense

I did biology, accounting, pure maths and physics when I was in school (4 years ago)

So I do remember some stuff for biology like the denaturing of cells

Don't ask me anything accounting, physics, maths or afrikaans questions tho

I forgot almost EVERYTHING

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

Exactly. It's weird but it makes sense

I did biology, accounting, pure maths and physics when I was in school (4 years ago)

So I do remember some stuff for biology like the denaturing of cells

Don't ask me anything accounting, physics, maths or afrikaans questions tho

I forgot almost EVERYTHING

Does that not sound absurd at face value, though? Some random ACTUAL fodder from a relatively weak verse (At least last I checked Avatar wasn't that strong) being able to oneshot MUCH stronger characters?

 

[KirbyFan03]

Does that not sound absurd at face value, though? Some random ACTUAL fodder from a relatively weak verse (At least last I checked Avatar wasn't that strong) being able to oneshot MUCH stronger characters?

Definition of hax brother

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

Definition of hax brother

And how is Pyrokinesis hax? Do you know how common Fire Manipulation is? None of the other elements seem to have this.
I can gurantee you that if a sentient boulder was rolling towards me and I pointed a flamethrower at it and turned it on, the boulder would not care. Hell, even an Argentinosaurus, if we want to use organic tissue, would not care. It'd be in pain in the place hit, stomp me flat, and move on with its day. And Byakuya's cells and chemicals are a bit more durable than an Argentinosaurus' on account of him being able to flick his wrist and shatter a mountain with no damage to himself.
Why are we suddenly treating fire like it has literal infinite AP and/or has the same destructive ability as Disintegration? Unlike something like Disintegration, fire gets its power from an energy that can be quantified.

 

[KirbyFan03]

And how is Pyrokinesis hax? Do you know how common Fire Manipulation is? None of the other elements seem to have this.
I can gurantee you that if a sentient boulder was rolling towards me and I pointed a flamethrower at it and turned it on, the boulder would not care. Hell, even an Argentinosaurus, if we want to use organic tissue, would not care. It'd be in pain in the place hit, stomp me flat, and move on with its day.
Why are we suddenly treating fire like it has literal infinite AP and/or has the same destructive ability as Disintegration? Unlike something like Disintegration, fire gets its power from an energy that can be quantified.

As I said prior it's about materials and fire manip isn't an insta kill much like irl

It bypasses Durability for organic matter sure but it doesnt insta kill

And for the other elements, well, nature hates them

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

As I said prior it's about materials and fire manip isn't an insta kill much like irl

It bypasses Durability for organic matter sure but it doesnt insta kill

And for the other elements, well, nature hates them

I was in a debate where someone said the fire was as hot as lava and negated fire resistance (As in: Magical fire resistance, not the standard 'fire resistance' that every character in fiction above City Level should realistically have until proven otherwise).
Meaning the other character would ******* explode if even a tiny particle of that fire hit them, even though they were numerous tiers above their opponent, and strong enough to tank a supernova to the face and keep going.
Does that not sound absurd at is face?

 

[KirbyFan03]

I was in a debate where someone said the fire was as hot as lava and negated fire resistance (As in: Magical fire resistance, not the standard 'fire resistance' that every character in fiction above City Level should realistically have until proven otherwise).
Meaning the other character would ******* explode if even a tiny particle of that fire hit them, even though they were numerous tiers above their opponent, and strong enough to tank a supernova to the face and keep going.
Does that not sound absurd at is face?

Magical or otherwise

Fire is fire

 

[ALEPHGOAT]

Which still leads to a random Fire Nation soldier oneshotting Byakuya Kuchiki in equal speed.

Physical durability is seperate from thermal durability. Tungsten has the highest melting point of any metal and is brittle at room temperature.

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

Magical or otherwise

Fire is fire

Fire is such a ridiculously common ability that it genuinely devalues rarer hax like Disintegration by comparison if it can do the same thing. I doubt most writers who have their villains shrug off fire are saying they have a specific resistance to fire as opposed to just being so durable that the energy said fire has wasn't enough to damage them. Sephiroth comes to mind, since he's a weird case when it comes to fire in-general. Frieza's skin should make tungsten, the element, look like wet tissue paper by comparison. Are we really supposed to believe that it's normal skin in comparison to weaker verses' metals? when he can tank moon-planetbusting attacks and beyond without his skin breaking?
Look, I love Roy Mustang, I don't think he should be able to blast Goku's eyes out.

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

Physical durability is seperate from thermal durability. Tungsten has the highest melting point of any metal and is brittle at room temperature.

Tungsten > The entire normal Bleach cast (Barring Bazz-B) against Roy Mustang?

I feel like if you asked most writers if their god-tier characters could take a swim in lava, they would say yes.

 

[KirbyFan03]

Tungsten > The entire normal Bleach cast (Barring Bazz-B) against Roy Mustang?

I feel like if you asked most writers if their god-tier characters could take a swim in lava, they would say yes.

Don't blame us blame physics

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

Don't blame us blame physics

I still think it would be better to actually calculate the energy of the fire, otherwise there is legitimately zero point in trying to assign an AP to it.

 

[KirbyFan03]

I still think it would be better to actually calculate the energy of the fire, otherwise there is legitimately zero point in trying to assign an AP to it.

Energy of the fire determines one shot abilities

Nature of the fire is dura neg

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

Energy of the fire determines one shot abilities

Nature of the fire is dura neg

Aren't these contradictory statements?
I saw a 4-C character be put up against a 4-A character, and it was argued that the 4-C character's fire would oneshot the 4-A character. If it negates durability, then the energy doesn't matter, but as fire, the amount of energy it has should logically determine what it can burn.

 

[KirbyFan03]

Aren't these contradictory statements?
I saw a 4-C character be put up against a 4-A character, and it was argued that the 4-C character's fire would oneshot the 4-A character. If it negates durability, then the energy doesn't matter, but as fire, the amount of energy it has should logically determine what it can burn.

Fire can be AP to determine if it can take whatever down in either one blow or continous pressure

And dura neg, while not as good, works on organic matter like wonders