Another Wizard101 CRT

[Ben_CleverName]

For now, though, I will take AKM off the "agree" list until or unless they have no more questions or concerns.

 

[AKM sama]

The Chaos Heart scales to Low 1-C on account of being the main source of power for Grandfather Spider

Citation needed for this but I don't see how that will effect its durability.

 

[Ben_CleverName]

There are several statements supporting his heart being his main source of power.

The durability scales because it's literally his actual heart drawn out of him. No reason to assume its durability would decrease at all just because it's separated from him, especially since Spider remarks it being more powerful than he remembered it was, implying that it didn't lose any of its own power and might have actually become stronger.

 

[AKM sama]

That reasoning sounds very iffy? My actual heart if drawn out of me won't have the same durability as me. Also, why did Grandmother Raven wanted to destroy it in the first place when it was detached from his body?

If the durability of the heart is actually what you claim to be then this revision looks fine. But I am not so sure that is the case given the arguments so far.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out AKM sama.

 

[Ben_CleverName]

That reasoning sounds very iffy? My actual heart if drawn out of me won't have the same durability as me. Also, why did Grandmother Raven wanted to destroy it in the first place when it was detached from his body?

If the durability of the heart is actually what you claim to be then this revision looks fine. But I am not so sure that is the case given the arguments so far.

She wanted to destroy his heart to prevent him from regaining his full strength. The elaborate reason is that she drew her love for Spider out of herself in the form of Mellori and that left her with nothing but hatred for him, which made her want to destroy him at any cost (even if it meant sacrificing the rest of existence).

She couldn't outright kill him at the start because he was hiding from her in the Shadow Realm.

I really don't see what's iffy about this. Like I've already explained (and shown), his heart is literally the primary source of power for him. It takes him from getting fodderized by Raven to stalemating Raven. And however weakened his heart may be durability-wise, even if we assume that it is in fact weaker, there's no reason for us to think that it's weaker to the point of dropping from Low 1-C. It's literally a part of him whether it's separated from the rest of him or not. In fact, Raven literally uses the heart because without Spider's presence, the Spiral was seen as flawed, but the Chaos Heart could fix it.

Note: "Broken" in this context is referring to metaphorical heartbreak due to Raven betraying him.

 

[AKM sama]

She wanted to destroy his heart to prevent him from regaining his full strength.

Okay, that seems fine then. Just a final nitpick to make it certain, you're implying that with his heart he is stronger? Because why else would she want to prevent him from regaining his full strength? Wouldn't that mean that the heart alone is actually weaker than him + heart?

 

[Ben_CleverName]

Okay, that seems fine then. Just a final nitpick to make it certain, you're implying that with his heart he is stronger? Because why else would she want to prevent him from regaining his full strength?

Yeah, that's what I'm arguing here.

Wouldn't that mean that the heart alone is actually weaker than him + heart?

Generally speaking, yes, but the extent I think depends on interpretation. He's not totally powerless without the heart, although he is obviously a lot weaker without it. He later goes on to say that the heart is more powerful than he remembered, which either implies that the heart grew stronger overtime or he simply didn't remember how powerful it actually was. I do believe that either way, the heart should remain the same tier-wise.

 

[AKM sama]

So wait a second.

You're scaling the heart to the character, saying that since the character is a specific tier and the heart is its power source, the heart should also be that tier. And you're also saying that the character+heart is actually stronger than the heart alone. If the former is a specific tier, that doesn't mean the latter is too, because the latter is weaker than the former.

It takes him from getting fodderized by Raven to stalemating Raven.

As for its AP, it seems like you mentioned the difference in power the heart brings with itself, but this does not seem quantifiable.

And however weakened his heart may be durability-wise, even if we assume that it is in fact weaker, there's no reason for us to think that it's weaker to the point of dropping from Low 1-C.

And for the durability, there is no reason for us to assume its durability should be in the same tier when it is in fact weaker.

 

[Ben_CleverName]

You're scaling the heart to the character, saying that since the character is a specific tier and the heart is its power source, the heart should also be that tier.

It's his main power source, but not his only power source. By that, I mean that he is still capable of utilizing all the other various schools of magic, just to a much weaker extent.

And you're also saying that the character+heart is actually stronger than the heart alone. If the former is a specific tier, that doesn't mean the latter is too, because the latter is weaker than the former.

I see no reason to assume that the difference would be anything less than Low 1-C here due to my aforementioned reasons. Yeah, the heart is weaker by itself than it is with him but there's no reason to assume the difference is large enough to drop from Low 1-C to something else. It's like saying that combining two 4D objects would make them 5D in this instance. It's literally a part of his body which is itself 5D. It makes no sense for a Low 1-C being to have body parts that aren't up to scale with the rest of him, especially when those body parts are literally part of what keeps him from getting stomped by other Low 1-C beings.

 

[SuperAPM]

Have to agree with Ben, if there isn't any evidence to suggest that the heart would drop down an entire tier once separated from its body then it shouldn't really be assumed to be the case by default.

Obviously I understand the issue if this causing wonky scaling as a result, but from what Ben has told me offsite this doesn't even seem to be the case regardless.

 

[AKM sama]

I see no reason to assume that the difference would be anything less than Low 1-C

You're gonna have to provide evidence for that. We are not just gonna assume that to be the case. Your aforementioned reasons don't prove anything of the sort.

Yeah, the heart is weaker by itself than it is with him but there's no reason to assume the difference is large enough to drop from Low 1-C to something else.

Similarly, there is no reason to assume the heart is automatically Low 1-C if it is unquantifiably weaker.

It's literally a part of his body which is itself 5D. It makes no sense for a Low 1-C being to have body parts that aren't up to scale with the rest of him, especially when those body parts are literally part of what keeps him from getting stomped by other Low 1-C beings.

If the heart is weaker, then again, it makes no sense to simply assume it is going to be the same tier as the character. The body part that keeps him from getting stomped by other Low 1-C beings could just provide an unquantifiable boost to his already existing power.

if there isn't any evidence to suggest that the heart would drop down an entire tier once separated from its body then it shouldn't really be assumed to be the case by default.

You seem to have it backwards. The positive claim needs evidence, not the negative. "Right until proven wrong" mentality doesn't work here. It's the opposite.

And even if I agree that the heart is, in fact, Low 1-C based on pure assumptions, that's just the AP part. I see no reason to believe the durability is also Low 1-C when it is inherently less than the character's. Surviving several blows from a weakened Low 1-C also doesn't work because the character in question was weakened.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out AKM.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

Just going to say quickly

For AP, I am sure it's already on the profile

The Heart on it's own was stated powerful enough to unravel the fabric of existence
Raven stated when the Chaos Heart is completely free from it's bindings, everything will be destroyed
Mellori stated the same thing.

Durability

1) While he was being put to sleep by the lullaby, he was still combating it, as stated in the game itself, even then, the storm paradox chain was powering him back up, so the chain and the lullaby cancel each other out. Eventually the way we "beat" the titan is by destroying the paradox chain, which allows the Lullaby to take full affect. So, his assaults on the chaos heart was his normal power, as the lullby and chain cancel each other

2) The Heart survived conflict from the Aeythr Titan who is > weakened Bartleby, who rewove existence and reset reality.

So it has Low 1-C durability easily. It wouldn't make sense for the heart to survive multiple attacks from the titan, and then the Aeythr Titan, who was stronger than Raven and Spider at the time, who are comparable to weakened Bartleby, who can perform Low 1-C feats.

 

[AKM sama]

1) Proof that the lullaby was being entirely cancelled by the chain? Because you're saying they'll have equal amount of effect and that's an assumption until proven.

2) This bit is not on the profile. Can you provide evidence and for clarity also link the same on the profile so that any confusion can be avoided in the future?

 

[Ben_CleverName]

You're gonna have to provide evidence for that. We are not just gonna assume that to be the case. Your aforementioned reasons don't prove anything of the sort.

I'll say it again: It makes no sense for an actual part of someone's body to not scale to the rest of them, especially when it's the primary reason for them being as powerful as they are.

Similarly, there is no reason to assume the heart is automatically Low 1-C if it is unquantifiably weaker.

Yes, there is, and I already explained what the reason was.

If the heart is weaker, then again, it makes no sense to simply assume it is going to be the same tier as the character. The body part that keeps him from getting stomped by other Low 1-C beings could just provide an unquantifiable boost to his already existing power.

It makes perfect sense considering it's literally a part of said character and it wasn't damaged in any way upon separation.

You seem to have it backwards. The positive claim needs evidence, not the negative. "Right until proven wrong" mentality doesn't work here. It's the opposite.

The notion that a literal physical aspect of a character doesn't scale to the same tier as said character simply because it's separated from them is completely arbitrary and there's no reason to assume that's how it works. Especially with the context I've already provided. You're moving the goalpost.

 

[Antvasima]

Ben does seem to make a good point.

 

[AmeliaSCooper]

Correct me if I'm misremembering @Ben_CleverName or @Zenkaibattery1 but wasn't the Titan already attacking the heart before the player gets through all the groves and starts up the lullaby with Mellori and Bat, and likely for at least a few minutes before the player even gets to the husk (they traveled to the husk in an escape pod after all, and Sparck did have to find out where Husk was to begin with)? Wouldn't that, even that little bit of time, of the titan being boosted by the storm chain and attacking the heart be more of a feat for the hearts durability than the heart withstanding the titans attacks while its being slowly lulled into a slumber by the singing of the trees?

 

[Ben_CleverName]

Correct me if I'm misremembering @Ben_CleverName or @Zenkaibattery1 but wasn't the Titan already attacking the heart before the player gets through all the groves and starts up the lullaby with Mellori and Bat, and likely for at least a few minutes before the player even gets to the husk (they traveled to the husk in an escape pod after all, and Sparck did have to find out where Husk was to begin with)? Wouldn't that, even that little bit of time, of the titan being boosted by the storm chain and attacking the heart be more of a feat for the hearts durability than the heart withstanding the titans attacks while its being slowly lulled into a slumber by the singing of the trees?

Yes, the Titan amps himself with the Paradox Chain and attacks the heart even before the Lullaby is being sung. I actually forgot about that myself before looking back at the quest dialogue.

 

[AKM sama]

If that is the case, then it is fine. You should have started with that.

 

[Ben_CleverName]

Hey now, I can't help that I forgot about it!

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

Oh yeah, true.

 

[Antvasima]

It seems like this has been accepted then.

 

[Ben_CleverName]

I can carry out the edits tomorrow if nobody else wants to/is able to. I have to get to sleep for tonight though.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[Ben_CleverName]

After a really long day... I can carry on the updates now. The Player, Mellori, the Bat, Grandfather Spider and The Storm Titan's profiles should be unlocked for the update. The reason the Storm Titan should be updated is to get rid of the circular scaling between them and the Chaos Heart.

 

[AKM sama]

I have unlocked those profiles. Notify me when you're done.

 

[Ben_CleverName]

I've made the updates.

 

[Antvasima]

I have locked the pages again.

Is there anything left to do here, or should we close this thread?

 

[Ben_CleverName]

I think we're good now.