Another Multi-Galaxy Level Base Goku Thread

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

My argument is that since Piccolo has repeatedly stated to have a lower level of potential growth that Goku, and Goku has been superior to him for 11 DAMN ARCS (Piccolo Jr. Saga, Saiyan Saga, Frieza Saga, Android Saga, Cell Saga, Buu Saga, Battle of Gods, Resurrection F, Universe 6 Saga, Goku Black Saga, Universe Survival Saga, and in time equivalents that's for 20+ years)

The only thing I'll answer is this.

This is 100% irrelevant. Show Goku actually being stronger in base than this Piccolo.

 

[ShockingShoes]

The only thing I'll answer is this.

This is 100% irrelevant. Show Goku actually being stronger in base than this Piccolo.

Alright, I'll find a bit more evidence, but I don't get how exactly it's 100% irrelevant. Is a consistency in the story that's been happening for a long time and hasn't changed for a long time and showed no signs of changing in the more arc irrelevant? If so, then I'll use this consistently in future arguments.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

It's irrelevant because Piccolo quite simply has a showing that puts him above Goku's base, being relative if inferior to Ultimate Gohan.

 

[Urshani]

It's irrelevant because Piccolo quite simply has a showing that puts him above Goku's base, being relative if inferior to Ultimate Gohan.

this is db, of course goku would have gotten stronger with training

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

this is db, of course goku would have gotten stronger with training

Of course, but without explicit evidence, it is what it is.

 

[Urshani]

explicit evidence

the explicit evidence is that it's dragon ball

 

[ShockingShoes]

The only thing I'll answer is this.

This is 100% irrelevant. Show Goku actually being stronger in base than this Piccolo.

Extra evidence for Piccolo

1. Moro, and heck, even Sangabo on his first power up (he powered up twice more against CSSB Goku) was IMMENSLY less powerful than him. So basically, let me show you a basic scaling chart:

Android 17, Android 18, Jaco, Piccolo, and Ultimate Gohan << Sangabo (Power-Up #1. He wasn't even effected by combined attacks and beams from Ultimate Gohan and Piccolo) < Sangabo (Power Up #2) << Sangabo (Power Up #3 with ki overflowing his body) < CSSB Goku (stomped Power Up #1, Goku is MUCH more powerful than his previous blue form, and his base should remain the same.

This means that even Goku's CSSB transformations are on a completely different level than Piccolo, Gohan, Jaco, Android 17, and Android 18 combined, and likely in SSG is above Piccolo as well, as CSSB isn't <<< SSB, as I already stated Goku Black's Scaling is BS.

2. Nobody ever notes of Piccolo gaining a massive boost in power, not even Piccolo. The most notes that Piccolo states is that, "What's even the point of training when we can't even protect the Earth?"

3. 3/4 of the new 3-B Z-Fighters were in the previous arc 4-B. Android 17 grew from 4-B to 3-B, Android 18 grew from likely 4-B, Piccolo grew from 4-B, and they all have feats on this. If three different fighters can get 3-B in an arc, wouldn't it be more fitting if they were already 3-B before instead of them getting this sudden boost of power, or if even just Goku became 3-B in the Moro arc alongside the other Z-Fighters.

4. Multiple times where attacks meant for Ultra Instinct -Sign- or Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta, which logically should at least be a mention that they can take a punch from Moro, which Piccolo admitted he likely couldn't.

5. Goku's Chi itself in the Moro Saga has reached the God Level in base, which hasn't been mentioned for Piccolo, Gohan, or literally anybody else, and this is basically the same in the Granolah the Survivor Saga, therefore meaning that Goku should be superior to Piccolo, Gohan, and all of them now (though I don't know if he'd be above Ultimate Gohan, that is based on opinions)

6. Goku and Vegeta being the strongest in the universe in the Granolah the Survivor Saga, as Granolah wished to be the strongest, and at that point in time, making Granolah > MUI Goku at the time. This also means that a Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku would be stronger than a Legendary Super Saiyan/Super Saiyan Full Power Broly. This is a scaling thing that will not be brought up due to DBS: Broly just being a feat above on itself. Whis also states he does not know anyone stronger than both Goku and Vegeta.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

So uh... All of those are with transformations? Point number 2 and 3 don't matter, they all have vastly higher showings than before after training. That's that, pretty straightforward.

Point #5 is the only one worth discussing imo. Something I'll let others do (as I don't follow the Super manga that closely to comment on).

 

[ShockingShoes]

So uh... All of those are with transformations? Point number 2 and 3 don't matter, they all have vastly higher showings than before after training. That's that, pretty straightforward.

Point #5 is the only one worth discussing imo. Something I'll let others do (as I don't follow the Super manga that closely to comment on).

Goku did more training, he had double the amount of time, why is it that hard to believe that he didn't get the same, if not even more gains. It's something that's been constantly depicted in the manga, like, I don't get why you don't accept consistency as a valid feat.

Like, if X character is always stronger than Y character, even if Y character has insane boosts that jump him up multiple tiers and X is still stronger, and then now Y, due to him getting a power jump that is only visible on the VSBW and not on the actual manga is... just why?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Because quite simply, he doesn't have showings being above in base. It's quite simple. Only times Goku is shown stronger than any of them is through his various transformations.

 

[Urshani]

Because quite simply, he doesn't have showings being above in base. It's quite simple. Only times Goku is shown stronger than any of them is through his various transformations.

if he's shown equal he's still 3-B

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

if he's shown equal he's still 3-B

And that hasn't been shown as well. Or I'm stupid and missed it somewhere, lol.

 

[ShockingShoes]

And that hasn't been shown as well. Or I'm stupid and missed it somewhere, lol.

Well I mean that is the entire point of this thread lol

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Well I mean that is the entire point of this thread lol

Then I still disagree for Fluffy's reasons.

Edit: However, you should contact some mods or admins. Those are the only ones worth convincing. ovo

 

[ShockingShoes]

Then I still disagree for Fluffy's reasons.

Added, but he still hasn't responded with counterpoints to 7 of the feats listed on the OP in case you didn't know

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Added, but he still hasn't responded with counterpoints to 7 of the feats listed on the OP in case you didn't know

Bro wait, I have important things to do, I don't live here. If I take time to respond, it doesn't mean I concede and it's a pain reading 500 light years long school essay for each point that can be summarized and responded to in a sentence. I'll respond later.

 

[ShockingShoes]

Bro wait, I have important things to do, I don't live here. If I take time to respond, it doesn't mean I concede and it's a pain reading 500 light years long school essay for each point that can be summarized and responded to in a sentence. I'll respond later.

They were points that were added a day or two ago that were each a paragraph long. Not what I was referring to

 

[ShockingShoes]

Also I think i'm done with this thread for now. I wanna focus on adding Chou profiles to the VSBW. I'll come back to this thread in like 1-2 days, adios and it was pretty fun arguing with you FluffyCreatureZ

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Battle_Roar
It's literally a voice based attack, usable because Ramusshi has the loudest voice in the universe.
10,000x is the bare minimum multiplier for Super Saiyan Blue (Super Saiyan God i'm sure as an extreme lowball is 500x base form, and then SSB's multiplier is 10x. It's completely irrelevant to my arguement). Assuming 3-B means that assuming that my argument is correct lmao. The gap between the GoD's and Goku is unknown, yes, but what i'm saying is that to some degree (albeit MUCH MUCH weaker, though not by trillions and trillions of times) Goku is comparable due to the fact that Ramusshi's Battle Roar was both not intended to reach Goku, only the GoD's who were on the tournament arena. The argument isn't that Goku is = to the GoDs, nor is it that Goku is 10,000x weaker than the GoD's, it's that Goku is significantly weaker than them, which is still 3-B either way.

The main way that I personally also think Ramusshi's Battle Roar works (upon closer inspection of the profiles), it works by Ramusshi temporarily stopping the nerves in the body. Someone who was significantly weaker than the roar, like the Supreme Kai, who is High 4-C, would instantly faint due to the roar being that powerful in terms of raw strength/ki. For those who are within even a "fraction" of the roars output, they suffer paralysis, but not being knocked out. This scales Goku in his base form, not to the Gods of Destructions (ESPECIALLY the weakest ones who Goku has already surpassed by utilizing Ultra Instinct), but in the same ballpark as them, or in this case, the same tier that has the biggest quantifiable gap in the entirety of the VS Battles wiki, so the question is, is Base Goku realistically >>>billions of times weaker than the GoD's, or is he realistically only millions of times weaker than them?

SSG is not a 500x multiplier, dunno where you got that, it's at least.50x. SSB is 50x SSG not 10x. So SSB is at least 2500x base. Also 500 x 10 is 5000 not 10000x, do you even math bro?
SSG's multiplier is entirely unknown, it took goku from solar system level to multigalaxy level, if the gods are multi galaxy level and above base goku by a SSG level amp, then the roar attack would be able to be resisted by anyone who's 4-B scaling to base Goku, not that base Goku scales to the GoDs.
The second paragraph is headcanon.

I'd like to see scans for Caulifa being = to Hit, because that would be great to add as a "possibly" on the Chou profiles thread. Currently, on there, Caulifa is 4-B due to scaling to Cabba (who scales to U6 Saga SSJ Vegeta) and also needing to go Super Saiyan to get the upper hand on Final Form Frieza, which yet again, just like the Hit profile, is an example of them both being 4-B and 3-B at the same time for no good reason.

The scan that you posted of Frieza watching Kale transform LITERALLY shows Frieza looking away and being like, "Man your super saiyan ain't got no game" and then getting caught off guard by the attack.

Kale is literally mentioned as her 3-B reasoning on her profile that she didn't give Frieza a single chance to counterattack during that section where she ragdolls him. Frieza did not straight up get stomped by Kale. You later again do not show SSB Goku getting overpowered by Kale, you show him blocking her attacks and then him getting his guard broken, which means what exactly? That Kale is able to break Goku's guard when he's not expecting it, clearly emphasized by the "!!!"? Vegeta and Toppo almost getting knocked out is based on knockback, which doesn't scale to attack potency.

Plus, your arguement also kind of falls apart when you realize that the weaker Universe 11 fighters (who were taken out by Master ******' Roshi) gained the upper hand on Kale, damaged her, and then almost defeated her. The most likely explanation here is that what is above is known as a "Toriyama Handjob", where Krillin matches a Super Saiyan Blue Goku's Kamehameha and Gohan is brought up to Super Saiyan Blue level after a day of training in the anime.

And now, you're also ignoring Moro Saga Gohan (who has again, gotten much stronger than before, and has gotten stronger than the Tournament of Power, had promptly decided to get >>>CSSB Goku in the Tournament of Power before going back down to <<<CSSB Goku an arc later, which is where the Sangabo feat can help) and instead cherry picking. Gohan has only been stated to have regained his battle sense from Piccolo as well, one of the most intelligent Z-Fighters, and not have been significantly more powerful than before. Gohan in Chapter 54 Page 6 and 7 effortlessly defeated a Seven-Three clone of Piccolo so you can't use this to justify Piccolo being = to Gohan blah blah blah you get it.

I don't care about your scaling, caulifula would scale to golden frieza for not get blitzed and one shot and actually taking hits from him and damaging him. Base kale scales above caulifula and can make frieza flinch with her attacks. Also you are lying, frieza looks directly at kale while she's transforming, then he still looks in the same direction and starts speaking before getting blitzed and ragdolled, he got shitstomped.
Goku: what the?! Shes still getting stronger! How's that possible!? gets guard broken and gets saved by frieza
I don't need to say more.
Wtf? "Based on knockback" well that's still AP. Does it even matter? Kales raw strength overpowered both SSB vegeta and toppo.
Universe 11 beat kale with teamwork despite being much weaker.
Gohan was above TOP SSB Goku but below moro SSB Goku, what is your point?

My argument is that since Piccolo has repeatedly stated to have a lower level of potential growth that Goku, and Goku has been superior to him for 11 DAMN ARCS (Piccolo Jr. Saga, Saiyan Saga, Frieza Saga, Android Saga, Cell Saga, Buu Saga, Battle of Gods, Resurrection F, Universe 6 Saga, Goku Black Saga, Universe Survival Saga, and in time equivalents that's for 20+ years) And with your Vegeta argument, Goku underwent multiple zenkais to catch up to Vegeta, underwent training Vegeta never even though of doing, while also having pretty much the exact same potential as Goku, and Vegeta was most importantly superior to Goku for one arc.

And for one, I consider Piccolo going from Solar System Level to Multi-Galaxy Level bananas if someone he has been constantly weaker than him just gets surpassed for absolutely no reason at all here, even when Piccolo has gotten these massive power-ups that are meant to put him at the top of the pack and balance him (notably when he absorbed Nail and Kami), and he's still been outclassed or comparable to a Base/Super Saiyan Goku the entire time.

The argument that his power boost from Solar System Level Fodder to Gohan Level is also heavily flawed as well, as Piccolo was usually only assisting Gohan while Gohan was the one dealing heavy damage. The only actual feat the Piccolo had was being able to fight Seven-Three who had his own abilities, with difficulty.

Someone debunked this already. It doesn't matter if piccolo surpassed goku when he was weaker before, it literally doesn't mean anything, that's simply just the scaling of the show, it's not my problem if it doesn't make sense, if you want goku to scale above piccolo then show some actual scaling. Essentially your argument is "Well Goku SHOULD be above piccolo because that is what happened before."

Extra evidence for Piccolo

1. Moro, and heck, even Sangabo on his first power up (he powered up twice more against CSSB Goku) was IMMENSLY less powerful than him. So basically, let me show you a basic scaling chart:

Android 17, Android 18, Jaco, Piccolo, and Ultimate Gohan << Sangabo (Power-Up #1. He wasn't even effected by combined attacks and beams from Ultimate Gohan and Piccolo) < Sangabo (Power Up #2) << Sangabo (Power Up #3 with ki overflowing his body) < CSSB Goku (stomped Power Up #1, Goku is MUCH more powerful than his previous blue form, and his base should remain the same.

This means that even Goku's CSSB transformations are on a completely different level than Piccolo, Gohan, Jaco, Android 17, and Android 18 combined, and likely in SSG is above Piccolo as well, as CSSB isn't <<< SSB, as I already stated Goku Black's Scaling is BS.

2. Nobody ever notes of Piccolo gaining a massive boost in power, not even Piccolo. The most notes that Piccolo states is that, "What's even the point of training when we can't even protect the Earth?"

3. 3/4 of the new 3-B Z-Fighters were in the previous arc 4-B. Android 17 grew from 4-B to 3-B, Android 18 grew from likely 4-B, Piccolo grew from 4-B, and they all have feats on this. If three different fighters can get 3-B in an arc, wouldn't it be more fitting if they were already 3-B before instead of them getting this sudden boost of power, or if even just Goku became 3-B in the Moro arc alongside the other Z-Fighters.

4. Multiple times where attacks meant for Ultra Instinct -Sign- or Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta, which logically should at least be a mention that they can take a punch from Moro, which Piccolo admitted he likely couldn't.

5. Goku's Chi itself in the Moro Saga has reached the God Level in base, which hasn't been mentioned for Piccolo, Gohan, or literally anybody else, and this is basically the same in the Granolah the Survivor Saga, therefore meaning that Goku should be superior to Piccolo, Gohan, and all of them now (though I don't know if he'd be above Ultimate Gohan, that is based on opinions)

6. Goku and Vegeta being the strongest in the universe in the Granolah the Survivor Saga, as Granolah wished to be the strongest, and at that point in time, making Granolah > MUI Goku at the time. This also means that a Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku would be stronger than a Legendary Super Saiyan/Super Saiyan Full Power Broly. This is a scaling thing that will not be brought up due to DBS: Broly just being a feat above on itself. Whis also states he does not know anyone stronger than both Goku and Vegeta.

1.This is just a SSB Goku scaling chain, Base doesn't even begin to compare to SSB, this whole point is entirely irrelevant.
2. That doesn't need to happen, that's just the power creep of the show, it doesn't disprove piccolo's 3-B feats or prove base goku being above him.
3. "It would make sense if this was true but I can't prove it is true, but it should be true so it is."
4. Sorry I don't understand, structure your sentence properly.
5. Scans? You just said it did but scans? Also why does it need to be stated that the others are god level when we literally have scaling to prove it?
6. I don't understand how this is at all relevant to piccolo or base goku scaling.

Hit's scaling is absolutely broken on his profile, as while he's holding back he primarily scales to Base and Super Saiyan Goku, as with predictions Goku was able to match him in SSJ, with Beerus even saying that Goku completely beats Hit in power. But, Hit also scales to effortlessly defeating and being able to effortlessly damage a >10% Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta and is also able to take hits from a Super Saiyan God Goku. Both of these instances are major points in the story, and both of which support 3-B scaling.

No, hit scales to 10% blue vegeta who is an actual 3-B level dude, hit was holding back against goku in SSJ I think. I can't remember the fight but this is not true because that would make hit SSJ level and SSG level simultaneously.

This has happened so many times I don't even need to mention it anymore. This is likely PIS

Good, so you understand.

I'll extend this here now. Toppo stated that Goku wasn't even close to his level in Super Saiyan 3 during the Exhibition Match (Chapter 29), Dyspo is also the third strongest member of the Pride Troopers. Vegeta also one-shot Dyspo upon transforming into blue, but Dyspo survived the attack obviously, and Vegeta opt'ed to originally use Super Saiyan against the Pride Trooper Duo.

So dyspo is 4-B.

Goku has no 4-B feats after the VERY BEGINNING of Super. There are no 4-B feats and we have all of this evidence here, and I remember someone in this thread mentioned that these feats aren't enough to upgrade Goku to 3-B, but what feats are there that keeps Goku at 4-B besides Trunks in the Goku Black Arc?

What? You mean the lack of 3-B feats for Goku? What is this trying to prove? So you're saying that there is a lack of 4-B feats or I guess 3-B anti feats so Goku should scale to 3-B? Absence of evidence against something is not evidence for something, that is argument from ignorance.

Equal to Android 17 (2/5)

Pre-ToP, Goku fought against Android 17. He was forced to go into Super Saiyan 3 because of his "training" on his island and the fact that this SSJ3 Goku was out of practice. Android 17 is 4-B here because of that. He trained for about 3 months for Moro and got to be 3-B, and not only that, Android 18 also became 3-B. Android 17 also scales above Piccolo here as well due to him questioning what training Android 17 did, originally thinking he would need help to defeat Botamo before Android 17 one shot him, adding further support to the Piccolo < SSJ Goku arguement.

Vegeta has Uncontrollable Power (3/5)

Vegeta, upon finishing training on Yardratt, couldn't even handle his own power, this could point to Vegeta actually being stronger in his new base than his previous CSSB, and logically, Goku would scale.

Dragon Ball Super: Broly (4/5)

A movie where Broly in Base vs Super Saiyan happens and then Ikari broly (x10 Base) fights fairly evenly against Super Saiyan God. Either scaling doesn't scale to the manga, which isn't true, or you think that Broly's multiplier is thousands of times stronger than it is in the movie for some reason.

Granolah Defeating Goku (5/5)
Goku in the Granolah Saga survived a bloodlusted (i mean, there's LITERALLY no reason that Granolah wouldn't be) Clone Granolah's blast while in his base form. This happened again with Granolah while Goku was in God, though Goku easily remained concious from this attack.

I'll just reply to this all at once.
1. So android 17 is 3-B now, cool. Why does base Goku scale?
2. No. That doesn't mean that. Vegeta just used more power than he thought he'd use because he didn't know how strong he'd gotten, it's not that his body literally couldn't contain the power, that makes zero sense.
3. Wrathful is an unquantifiable amp, and the movies events are most likely not exactly canon to the manga as the events in the manga are different from the movies. I'd not use the broly movie to scale the manga.
4. This feat didn't happen, goku got hit in SSB and dropped out of it, unless you wanna argue that base goku > ssb goku.

 

[ShockingShoes]

SSG is not a 500x multiplier, dunno where you got that, it's at least.50x. SSB is 50x SSG not 10x. So SSB is at least 2500x base. Also 500 x 10 is 5000 not 10000x, do you even math bro?
SSG's multiplier is entirely unknown, it took goku from solar system level to multigalaxy level, if the gods are multi galaxy level and above base goku by a SSG level amp, then the roar attack would be able to be resisted by anyone who's 4-B scaling to base Goku, not that base Goku scales to the GoDs.

Yeah I think I took SSB's multiplier from a notepad so that's my bad.

SSG only took Goku from Solar System Level to Multi-Galaxy Level because VSBW scaling doesn't equal Dragon Ball Super scaling. There are two reasons why this could be:

1. That the scaling in Dragon Ball Super is massively different than VSBW scaling, as we don't see any characters that are 4-A or 3-C (due to lack of 4-A or 3-C feats)
2. That Toriyama went up to 3-B (or eventually destroying the universe) because he wanted the stakes to be higher than Dragon Ball GT

The multiplier for Super Saiyan God's relation to tiers is irrelevant because of both of those factors above.
As well as this, we already do the second part with the Dragon Ball Super anime. Anyone who scales to a God-Ki absorbed Goku is 3-A, even though it makes no sense for characters like Future Trunks to be 3-A outside of scaling.

The second paragraph is headcanon.

It also isn't. How I "personally think" is literally just all of the information we have in the chapters written in a different way so that it's easier to understand.

We know that characters who are much, much weaker than the roar will faint upon hearing it, and we know that those that can take the sound of the loudest voice in the universe will remain conscious, but the sheer attack potency of the roar will cause them to suffer paralysis.

It is a fact that this indeed did happen in the manga and had attention brought to it to emphasize how powerful the Gods of Destruction were. Obviously, Goku was able to remain conscious from this, though, as sound actually works in real life, as the sound waves carried on Ramusshi's roar got quieter.

Unless you disagree with basic real life science, then this is the option that is the most likely to be correct. Ramusshi's attack was also to be directed at the Gods of Destruction, not those in the audience, as the very purpose of him using the roar was because he was fighting them in a battle arena.

We also know that Goku is around (as in, Goku <<< GoD's) the Gods of Destructions level, as Ultra Instinct Omen was enough to force Jiren to use his Full Power, which is above Belmod's (a GoD's) own power. We know that this is also realistic because Ultra Instinct Omen's multiplier should be higher than Completed Super Saiyan Blue's, but lower than the fusion multiplier (as in Gogeta/Vegito + SSB).

Therefore, I believe it is much more realistic that Goku's Base has a much more comparable status to the Gods of Destruction's than we give it credit for, which we give it credit to be quintillions of times weaker, which I don't think is the case.

I don't care about your scaling, caulifula would scale to golden frieza for not get blitzed and one shot and actually taking hits from him and damaging him. Base kale scales above caulifula and can make frieza flinch with her attacks. Also you are lying, frieza looks directly at kale while she's transforming, then he still looks in the same direction and starts speaking before getting blitzed and ragdolled, he got shitstomped.
Goku: what the?! Shes still getting stronger! How's that possible!? gets guard broken and gets saved by frieza
I don't need to say more.
Wtf? "Based on knockback" well that's still AP. Does it even matter? Kales raw strength overpowered both SSB vegeta and toppo.
Universe 11 beat kale with teamwork despite being much weaker.
Gohan was above TOP SSB Goku but below moro SSB Goku, what is your point?

Your argument is incredibly stupid, and here is a scaling chart that will tell you everything you need to know.
I'll be incredibly low-balling everything here on this scaling chart.

Your Scaling:

Cabba (Base) < Vegeta (Base) < Caulifa (Base) < Frieza (Final Form) <(x50 Caulifa) Caulifa (Super Saiyan) ≈ Golden Frieza < Kale (Base) < Goku/Vegeta (CSSB) <<(>>50x Kale) Legendary Super Saiyan Kale (practically one shot CSSB Vegeta)<<<(at least 10x, much more likely to be 400x, possibly SSB multiplier level) Base Kefla << (>>50x) Legendary Super Saiyan Kefla = Ultimate Gohan <<< Suppressed Jiren (didn't even need to dodge Kefla's attack, wasn't even remotely worried by it) < Belmod <<< Ultra Instinct Omen Goku (forced Jiren to use his full power) ≈ Full Power Jiren < Perfected Ultra Instinct Goku (only by sheer willpower could Jiren fight Goku)

So you see, first of all, Caulifa was absolutely shit stomped by Final Form Frieza, forcing her to go Super Saiyan. I mean, I though Golden Frieza had a SSB level multiplier, being weaker than a base RoF Goku, but then being superior in power to his SSB form later, but, whatever.

Then we have Kale, who in Legendary Super Saiyan can one shot Goku and Vegeta. One shots are on average 2x in Dragon Ball, so we'll say that Kale is 1.2x stronger than CSSB Goku and Vegeta (again, maximum lowball)

Then we have, Kefla, who at lowest is 10x stronger than Legendary Super Saiyan Kale. We then have a >50x multiplier for her LSSJ form. This means that both Gohan and Kefla scale to at bare minimum (1.2 * 10) to being 12x stronger than CSSB Goku and Vegeta. We turn that into reasonable numbers and we get them being (400 * 1.5) about 600x stronger than CSSB Goku and Vegeta.

And then Ultra Instinct Omen Goku is much, much stronger than that, forcing Jiren into his full power state.

A statement from the dude who literally trained Gohan (Piccolo) said that he could only get Gohan to regain his battle sense (don't argue that Piccolo said he got stronger than ever during that fight, it's not reasonable to assume he magically got 12x stronger than CSSB Goku and Vegeta, who were already massively stronger than they were at the beginning of Super).

So I guess that Gohan all the way back in Resurrection F (he hasn't trained at all in Super until the Tournament of Power, at least to my knowledge) scales to Multi-Galaxy Level as well, which means First Form Frieza from Resurrection F upscales from Gohan's strength and that means everyone's progressively gotten weaker.

Yeah your scaling doesn't make sense for shit.

Legendary Super Saiyan Kale is ≈ Random Universe 11 Soldiers (all of which were able to damage Kale and almost knock her out of the ToP arena, which is a feat not even Golden Frieza could do)

My scaling however, is this:

Cabba (Base) < Caulifa (Base) < Frieza (Final Form) < Caulifa (Super Saiyan) < Kale (Base) < Kale (Legendary Super Saiyan) < Golden Frieza < Kefla (LSSJ) = Gohan < Goku (CSSB)

Most of Kales feats have to be P.I.S, and all can be either said as those two characters not actually fighting. Kale can get hit by the regular Universe 11 soldiers, which means that they're 3-B since they can deal damage to Kale no matter what you say. It also makes much more sense why Goku didn't say something like "Holy hell! Gohan's fighting Kefla, he's surpassed me by ten times!"

And once you consider that Goku again surpassed Gohan, who was actually training for 3 months in the Moro Saga, it makes no sense at all.Someone debunked this already. It doesn't matter if piccolo surpassed goku when he was weaker before, it literally doesn't mean anything, that's simply just the scaling of the show, it's not my problem if it doesn't make sense, if you want goku to scale above piccolo then show some actual scaling. Essentially your argument is "Well Goku SHOULD be above piccolo because that is what happened before."1.This is just a SSB Goku scaling chain, Base doesn't even begin to compare to SSB, this whole point is entirely irrelevant.2. That doesn't need to happen, that's just the power creep of the show, it doesn't disprove piccolo's 3-B feats or prove base goku being above him.3. "It would make sense if this was true but I can't prove it is true, but it should be true so it is."4. Sorry I don't understand, structure your sentence properly.5. Scans? You just said it did but scans? Also why does it need to be stated that the others are god level when we literally have scaling to prove it?6. I don't understand how this is at all relevant to piccolo or base goku scaling.

No, hit scales to 10% blue vegeta who is an actual 3-B level dude, hit was holding back against goku in SSJ I think. I can't remember the fight but this is not true because that would make hit SSJ level and SSG level simultaneously.

Hit was holding back on both Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta and Super Saiyan Goku. If he wasn't holding back, then he would've had the 1 minute time limit like he mentioned when he went 100%. We also know he hasn't yet used his full power since the gods said he was holding back "The entire time"

So dyspo is 4-B.

Goku "one-shot" (i'm using the term very loosely here, as I was before) Toppo when he went SSB too.

I'll just reply to this all at once.
1. So android 17 is 3-B now, cool. Why does base Goku scale?
2. No. That doesn't mean that. Vegeta just used more power than he thought he'd use because he didn't know how strong he'd gotten, it's not that his body literally couldn't contain the power, that makes zero sense.
3. Wrathful is an unquantifiable amp, and the movies events are most likely not exactly canon to the manga as the events in the manga are different from the movies. I'd not use the broly movie to scale the manga.
4. This feat didn't happen, goku got hit in SSB and dropped out of it, unless you wanna argue that base goku > ssb goku.

1. Base Goku doesn't scale. Android 17 was comparable to SSJ3 Goku before the Tournament of Power and during the Moro Arc he stomped Seven-Three. The Android's still serve no purpose to be above Super Saiyan 3 Goku.
2. here. I never said his body couldn't handle his own power, it's that he wasn't able to control the power of the blast, even being confused with what power he just used, he doesn't even think he accidentally went Blue or Super Saiyan.
3. Broly's wrathful state is literally just Great Ape but you retain the body of yourself..
4. The Granolah clone powered up to full power once his current power didn't get the job done on SSG and Base (Base had more damage done to it than Super Saiyan God, but they both took heavy damage). You can't just argue that because something doesn't work in your favor that it didn't happen.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

0/5.
Goku was using ultra instinct sign. This was confirmed in the same chapter, in fact they were able to follow Goku in SSB so how tf would that be done in base, moro literally tells him to start using the same technique he was using for the high speed movements.
Sorry this was bad, there is like such a better way to prove this using black arc scaling, just use SSJ Black > SSB vegeta, SSG Vegeta > Rose Black.
Edit: like literally bro, here are the scans.

Actually he didn't use it against saganbo. Its confirmed the entire fight, he didn't even use ui due to its time limit.

As for the thread, I'm neutral on this.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Actually he didn't use it against saganbo. Its confirmed the entire fight, he didn't even use ui due to its time limit.

As for the thread, I'm neutral on this.

Bruh, you should read the whole scan before speaking man like seriously. Moro said "Now I understand why you didn't employ this form during the entire fight against saganbo"
During the entire fight means that he did use it, but not for the whole fight. He used it initially but then switched to blue, that's what happened in the show.
I don't why you'd be neutral when the whole thread is straight up wrong.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

Bruh, you should read the whole scan before speaking man like seriously. Moro said "Now I understand why you didn't employ this form during the entire fight against saganbo"
During the entire fight means that he did use it, but not for the whole fight.

As far as i've seen, he didn't use it at all against Saganbo.

And I think if moro said that he didn't use the form, and he's taking into account the entire fight, then he didn't use the form at all against Saganbo.

I don't why you'd be neutral when the whole thread is straight up wrong.

Because I'm not really being persuaded by any side, ig thats the simplest way I can put it.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Yeah I think I took SSB's multiplier from a notepad so that's my bad.

SSG only took Goku from Solar System Level to Multi-Galaxy Level because VSBW scaling doesn't equal Dragon Ball Super scaling. There are two reasons why this could be:

1. That the scaling in Dragon Ball Super is massively different than VSBW scaling, as we don't see any characters that are 4-A or 3-C (due to lack of 4-A or 3-C feats)
2. That Toriyama went up to 3-B (or eventually destroying the universe) because he wanted the stakes to be higher than Dragon Ball GT

The multiplier for Super Saiyan God's relation to tiers is irrelevant because of both of those factors above.
As well as this, we already do the second part with the Dragon Ball Super anime. Anyone who scales to a God-Ki absorbed Goku is 3-A, even though it makes no sense for characters like Future Trunks to be 3-A outside of scaling.

What are you trying to say here? That SSG shouldn't take take Goku from 4-B to 3-B or what?

It also isn't. How I "personally think" is literally just all of the information we have in the chapters written in a different way so that it's easier to understand.

We know that characters who are much, much weaker than the roar will faint upon hearing it, and we know that those that can take the sound of the loudest voice in the universe will remain conscious, but the sheer attack potency of the roar will cause them to suffer paralysis.

It is a fact that this indeed did happen in the manga and had attention brought to it to emphasize how powerful the Gods of Destruction were. Obviously, Goku was able to remain conscious from this, though, as sound actually works in real life, as the sound waves carried on Ramusshi's roar got quieter.

Unless you disagree with basic real life science, then this is the option that is the most likely to be correct. Ramusshi's attack was also to be directed at the Gods of Destruction, not those in the audience, as the very purpose of him using the roar was because he was fighting them in a battle arena.

We also know that Goku is around (as in, Goku <<< GoD's) the Gods of Destructions level, as Ultra Instinct Omen was enough to force Jiren to use his Full Power, which is above Belmod's (a GoD's) own power. We know that this is also realistic because Ultra Instinct Omen's multiplier should be higher than Completed Super Saiyan Blue's, but lower than the fusion multiplier (as in Gogeta/Vegito + SSB).

Therefore, I believe it is much more realistic that Goku's Base has a much more comparable status to the Gods of Destruction's than we give it credit for, which we give it credit to be quintillions of times weaker, which I don't think is the case.

Yes, how you personally think something is without actual evidence is head canon.
And no, Goku being at the level of the gods in base, is complete and utter bullshit, I don't need to say anything further. He wcales to their level in sign, yeah, but sign is not base form.

Your argument is incredibly stupid, and here is a scaling chart that will tell you everything you need to know.
I'll be incredibly low-balling everything here on this scaling chart.

Your Scaling:

Cabba (Base) < Vegeta (Base) < Caulifa (Base) < Frieza (Final Form) <(x50 Caulifa) Caulifa (Super Saiyan) ≈ Golden Frieza < Kale (Base) < Goku/Vegeta (CSSB) <<(>>50x Kale) Legendary Super Saiyan Kale (practically one shot CSSB Vegeta)<<<(at least 10x, much more likely to be 400x, possibly SSB multiplier level) Base Kefla << (>>50x) Legendary Super Saiyan Kefla = Ultimate Gohan <<< Suppressed Jiren (didn't even need to dodge Kefla's attack, wasn't even remotely worried by it) < Belmod <<< Ultra Instinct Omen Goku (forced Jiren to use his full power) ≈ Full Power Jiren < Perfected Ultra Instinct Goku (only by sheer willpower could Jiren fight Goku)

So you see, first of all, Caulifa was absolutely shit stomped by Final Form Frieza, forcing her to go Super Saiyan. I mean, I though Golden Frieza had a SSB level multiplier, being weaker than a base RoF Goku, but then being superior in power to his SSB form later, but, whatever.

Then we have Kale, who in Legendary Super Saiyan can one shot Goku and Vegeta. One shots are on average 2x in Dragon Ball, so we'll say that Kale is 1.2x stronger than CSSB Goku and Vegeta (again, maximum lowball)

Then we have, Kefla, who at lowest is 10x stronger than Legendary Super Saiyan Kale. We then have a >50x multiplier for her LSSJ form. This means that both Gohan and Kefla scale to at bare minimum (1.2 * 10) to being 12x stronger than CSSB Goku and Vegeta. We turn that into reasonable numbers and we get them being (400 * 1.5) about 600x stronger than CSSB Goku and Vegeta.

And then Ultra Instinct Omen Goku is much, much stronger than that, forcing Jiren into his full power state.

A statement from the dude who literally trained Gohan (Piccolo) said that he could only get Gohan to regain his battle sense (don't argue that Piccolo said he got stronger than ever during that fight, it's not reasonable to assume he magically got 12x stronger than CSSB Goku and Vegeta, who were already massively stronger than they were at the beginning of Super).

So I guess that Gohan all the way back in Resurrection F (he hasn't trained at all in Super until the Tournament of Power, at least to my knowledge) scales to Multi-Galaxy Level as well, which means First Form Frieza from Resurrection F upscales from Gohan's strength and that means everyone's progressively gotten weaker.

Yeah your scaling doesn't make sense for shit.

Legendary Super Saiyan Kale is ≈ Random Universe 11 Soldiers (all of which were able to damage Kale and almost knock her out of the ToP arena, which is a feat not even Golden Frieza could do)

That scaling chain is wrong and half of it is irrelevant, it actually is this.
SSSJ Caulifula < kale << Golden frieza = SSB goku vegeta and toppo << SSJ Kale < SSJ Kefla = Gohan.
Caulifula was easily defeated by frieza but that doean't mean she doesn't scale.
Kale can't one shot SSB Goku vegeta or frieza, she's just way stronger than them. That 1.2 thing that you made up doesn't exist.
We don't even see base kefla, where tf did you get 10x from? stop making shit up.
Yeah man, I'm gonna argue that, gohan clearly got stronger, there is no debate here he did. It doesn't matter if he got stronger than Goku in 3 days, if you are gonna argue that it doesn't make sense so it isn't true then hold this argument from incredulity fallacy, actually your whole argument here is this fallacy.
My argument doesn't make sense for you because you arent trying to understand it.
Kale was far stronger than u11, they beat her with teamwork.

My scaling however, is this:

Cabba (Base) < Caulifa (Base) < Frieza (Final Form) < Caulifa (Super Saiyan) < Kale (Base) < Kale (Legendary Super Saiyan) < Golden Frieza < Kefla (LSSJ) = Gohan < Goku (CSSB)

Most of Kales feats have to be P.I.S, and all can be either said as those two characters not actually fighting. Kale can get hit by the regular Universe 11 soldiers, which means that they're 3-B since they can deal damage to Kale no matter what you say. It also makes much more sense why Goku didn't say something like "Holy hell! Gohan's fighting Kefla, he's surpassed me by ten times!"

And once you consider that Goku again surpassed Gohan, who was actually training for 3 months in the Moro Saga, it makes no sense at all.Someone debunked this already. It doesn't matter if piccolo surpassed goku when he was weaker before, it literally doesn't mean anything, that's simply just the scaling of the show, it's not my problem if it doesn't make sense, if you want goku to scale above piccolo then show some actual scaling. Essentially your argument is "Well Goku SHOULD be above piccolo because that is what happened before."1.This is just a SSB Goku scaling chain, Base doesn't even begin to compare to SSB, this whole point is entirely irrelevant.2. That doesn't need to happen, that's just the power creep of the show, it doesn't disprove piccolo's 3-B feats or prove base goku being above him.3. "It would make sense if this was true but I can't prove it is true, but it should be true so it is."4. Sorry I don't understand, structure your sentence properly.5. Scans? You just said it did but scans? Also why does it need to be stated that the others are god level when we literally have scaling to prove it?6. I don't understand how

Lmao frieza > kale.

I don't even know how you can believe this, your entire argument is from incredulity, you just can't believe kale slaps goku and vegeta.
You screwed up the formatting of your second paragraph.

Hit was holding back on both Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta and Super Saiyan Goku. If he wasn't holding back, then he would've had the 1 minute time limit like he mentioned when he went 100%. We also know he hasn't yet used his full power since the gods said he was holding back "The entire time"

Hit scales to 10% of vegeta's power while holding back. But he's a little inconsistent because base Goku made him bleed. This is clearly not consistent and shouldn't be used to scale base Goku anywhere near hit's level.

"one-shot" (i'm using the term very loosely here, as I was before) Toppo when he went SSB too.

When? And how is this relevant to dyspo?

1. Base Goku doesn't scale. Android 17 was comparable to SSJ3 Goku before the Tournament of Power and during the Moro Arc he stomped Seven-Three. The Android's still serve no purpose to be above Super Saiyan 3 Goku.
2. here. I never said his body couldn't handle his own power, it's that he wasn't able to control the power of the blast, even being confused with what power he just used, he doesn't even think he accidentally went Blue or Super Saiyan.
3. Broly's wrathful state is literally just Great Ape but you retain the body of yourself..
4. The Granolah clone powered up to full power once his current power didn't get the job done on SSG and Base (Base had more damage done to it than Super Saiyan God, but they both took heavy damage). You can't just argue that because something doesn't work in your favor that it didn't happen.

1. Nah it doesn't work like that, actually prove Goku still scales above 17 instead of "Goku SHOULD scale because I want him to".
2. I still don't understand what this proves, vegeta is just surprised because his base form grew astronomically stronger than before and he didn't know strong he'd gotten, this is not proof for 3-B.
3. Yeah I don't think it's that simple wrathful was more like a SSG level amp. And the events of the manga are different from the movies.
4. Nah man that feat actually didn't happen.

Granolah hit Goku in SSB, not base, Goku dropped out of the form after being hit.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

As far as i've seen, he didn't use it at all against Saganbo.

And I think if moro said that he didn't use the form, and he's taking into account the entire fight, then he didn't use the form at all against Saganbo.


Because I'm not really being persuaded by any side, ig thats the simplest way I can put it.

No what moro meant was that he knows why Goku didn't use sign for the whole fight against saganbo, not that he didn't use it at all. If you look at the scans I sent before in my first post in this thread, you will see that moro directly confirms that Goku was using sign when he fought saganbo.
Here.

If you aren't persuaded by me then either you didn't read the thread completely, or I am a lousy debater.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

or I am a lousy debater.

Well... ovo