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Another Multi-Galaxy Level Base Goku Thread

(Profiles not on the VSBW are here on this CRT, as the pages aren't added yet)

When does Goku become 3-B, who scales?

Goku becomes 3-B in the time that he does the most training he ever does (arguably), the Moro Saga. This saga has Goku train with Merus to achieve Ultra Instinct for multiple months while Vegeta trains on Planet Yardratt like Goku did all of those years ago. This means that the main point here is that Goku is 3-B, and that means the characters who scale are Vegeta due to scaling to around Goku's level. Nobody else really scales

Evidence​

The evidence will have a rating /5 out of how reliable the piece of evidence is.​

Rumshii's Roar (3/5)
Scales much further above the Supreme Kai, who was knocked out by Rumshii’s roar, which also leads Goku to being somewhat comparable (albeit much weaker than, as Goku stated the Gods of Destructions had absurd strength, which should mean their all stronger than Goku’s Completed SSB form) the Gods of Destruction, as Whis stated should also barely be standing from the roar.

Dyspo's Talk (4/5)
Dyspo quoted him as not half bad, meaning that he should be somewhat comparable to him. Took hits from a Toppo who said that the battle was no place for mercy (meaning he's at least somewhat serious), albeit he was only able to block and not fight back. This also makes sense with the fact that a Super Saiyan Blue Goku instantly knocked back Toppo.

I'll extend this here now. Toppo stated that Goku wasn't even close to his level in Super Saiyan 3 during the Exhibition Match (Chapter 29), Dyspo is also the third strongest member of the Pride Troopers. Vegeta also one-shot Dyspo upon transforming into blue, but Dyspo survived the attack obviously, and Vegeta opt'ed to originally use Super Saiyan against the Pride Trooper Duo.

Scaling to Gohan (1/5)

Goku may scale to a ToP Gohan, but Gohan is only likely 3-B.


Always Above Piccolo (3/5)
A little supporting thing for the Galactic Patrol scaling, as Goku since the Frieza Saga has always been above Piccolo. Piccolo was likely 3-B due to being able to fight Seven-Three alongside Gohan.

Scaling above Sangabo (5/5)
Sangabo is a character who when powered up, is enough to push back Android 17, Android 18, Gohan, and Piccolo at the same time, as well as effortlessly overpowering all of them. He is also able to effortlessly take a combined blast from Piccolo and Gohan, and this is only a few of the pieces of evidence that are here. There are more times that Gohan and Piccolo are effortlessly overpowered and having Sangabo not even taking damage from the Z-Fighters hits.

After this, he isn't even able to see Goku and gets knocked back far by him, while Goku is in base. Not even Gohan or Piccolo could see the attack that Goku made, similarly to Goku vs Jeice and Burter, so it should be scalable. Goku also combos Sangabo and more here. You may say, "But a CSSB Goku fought Sangabo too!" but that Sangabo was given more energy (and Goku still stomped him), so it's not important (if you're curious, Chapter 58, post-Page 28).

I don't think i'll need any more evidence to say that Goku is 3-B Post-Moro Arc.


New Evidence (added around November 2nd)​

Hit Scaling (3/5)
Hit's scaling is absolutely broken on his profile, as while he's holding back he primarily scales to Base and Super Saiyan Goku, as with predictions Goku was able to match him in SSJ, with Beerus even saying that Goku completely beats Hit in power. But, Hit also scales to effortlessly defeating and being able to effortlessly damage a >10% Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta and is also able to take hits from a Super Saiyan God Goku. Both of these instances are major points in the story, and both of which support 3-B scaling.

Either way, >10% Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta, who is still 3-B (and was able to be damaged by Hit, meaning that Hit's durability is comparable), took Hit's and coughed up blood from Super Saiyan Goku, who is currently 4-B.

This could be P.I.S. though

Several Instances of God Level Foes Hitting Goku and Vegeta (1/5)

This has happened so many times I don't even need to mention it anymore. This is likely PIS but is notable since it happened so many times.

Lack of 4-B Feats (2/5)

Goku has no 4-B feats after the VERY BEGINNING of Super. There are no 4-B feats and we have all of this evidence here, and I remember someone in this thread mentioned that these feats aren't enough to upgrade Goku to 3-B, but what feats are there that keeps Goku at 4-B besides Trunks in the Goku Black Arc?

Dyspo's section has been extended

Equal to Android 17
(2/5)

Pre-ToP, Goku fought against Android 17. He was forced to go into Super Saiyan 3 because of his "training" on his island and the fact that this SSJ3 Goku was out of practice. Android 17 is 4-B here because of that. He trained for about 3 months for Moro and got to be 3-B, and not only that, Android 18 also became 3-B. Android 17 also scales above Piccolo here as well due to him questioning what training Android 17 did, originally thinking he would need help to defeat Botamo before Android 17 one shot him, adding further support to the Piccolo < SSJ Goku arguement.

Vegeta has Uncontrollable Power (3/5)

Vegeta, upon finishing training on Yardratt, couldn't even handle his own power, this could point to Vegeta actually being stronger in his new base than his previous CSSB, and logically, Goku would scale.

Dragon Ball Super: Broly (4/5)

A movie where Broly in Base vs Super Saiyan happens and then Ikari broly (x10 Base) fights fairly evenly against Super Saiyan God. Either scaling doesn't scale to the manga, which isn't true, or you think that Broly's multiplier is thousands of times stronger than it is in the movie for some reason.

Granolah Defeating Goku (5/5)
Goku in the Granolah Saga survived a bloodlusted (i mean, there's LITERALLY no reason that Granolah wouldn't be) Clone Granolah's blast while in his base form. This happened again with Granolah while Goku was in God, though Goku easily remained concious from this attack.

Extra Evidence May Be Added in the Future

Why didn't you use Goku Black scaling?​

Specifically this:
SSJ Black > SSB vegeta, SSG Vegeta > Rose Black

The only bad thing about this that Goku Black has the worst scaling in any Dragon Ball Super arc.

Trunks. Trunks has SEVERAL different feats placing him in 4-B, and then those feats are on the Whole Bunch of New Chou Profiles thread, and him possibly being higher. The Goku Black scaling is a good point, and Goku & Vegeta training could also be used, but essentially, the Goku Black arc is completely wack.

It's a decent enough point however, but this won't be used as a main piece of evidence due to the Goku Black arc being WACK in terms of scaling, story, and all of that.

Does Goku have God Ki in Base then?​

Goku may not have God Ki in base however, as he didn’t have the aura of the God in Toppo’s fight until he reached SSG, and Goku didn't do any training during the Moro or Granolah the Survivor Arcs that would make him absorb God Ki into their base.

Is the boost in Power Realistic?​

Dragon Ball power scaling does not equal VSBW power scaling. If VSBW powerscaling was = to Dragon Ball power scaling, it'd be unrealistic to say that Goku would even be 3-B with God Ki. Goku would probably be about 4-C at the end of Z and 4-A/3-C in Super, so no, I don't think that this being a "realistic boost" should be considered.

Proposals:

  • Goku is possibly 3-B in Base while in the Tournament of Power
    • He is 3-B in Base while in the Moro Saga to Present

Agree: Spinorr, Vizer04, Meganova_Stella
Disagree: FluffyCreatureZ, LephyrTheRevanchist
Neutral:
 
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How do we know Goku was in base and not using ultra instinct?
He powered up later and revealed himself to be in base. He also fought an even further powered up Sangabo very casually in CSSB, and then casually fought a Sangabo who's body was imploding from the amount of energy in CSSB later, plus Goku hadn't been using any forms beforehand either.
 
He powered up later and revealed himself to be in base. He also fought an even further powered up Sangabo very casually in CSSB, and then casually fought a Sangabo who's body was imploding from the amount of energy in CSSB later.
He could've also been in UI omen, remember that he arrived Earth back from training with Merus and mastering his Ultra instinct.
 
He could've also been in UI omen, remember that he arrived Earth back from training with Merus and mastering his Ultra instinct.
Vegeta would've likely noted it. Goku didn't even use UI Omen against hit, so why would he here? We also saw him reveal himself later in base, Moro never noted he was using a god-like technique. This is about as likely as Goku using UI when he was dodging Jeice and Burters attacks on Namek.
 
Anyone who is 3-B should scale to Goku and Beerus shockwave they made that reached all the way to the realm of the kais

Just saying
 
Scales much further above the Supreme Kai, who was knocked out by Rumshii’s roar, which also leads Goku to being somewhat comparable (albeit much weaker than, as Goku stated the Gods of Destructions had absurd strength, which should mean their all stronger than Goku’s Completed SSB form) the Gods of Destruction, as Whis stated should also barely be standin
This only scales Goku above the supreme kai's who are like large star level, who he already stomps in base, and he is clearly not on the same level as the GoDs in base.
Dyspo quoted him as not half bad, meaning that he should be somewhat comparable to him. Took hits from a Toppo who said that the battle was no place for mercy (meaning he's at least somewhat serious), albeit he was only able to block and not fight back. This also makes sense with the fact that a Super Saiyan Blue Goku instantly knocked back Toppo.
Dyspo is fodder then, unless he scales to 3-B's, if he does which I'm not sure about then it doesn't mean much as saying Goku isn't bad doesn't mean you're comparable, Jiren said that many times to Goku and Vegeta while he was strong enough to one shot them both.
Goku doesn't scale, he was getting pummeled, and regardless, SSB Goku = SSB Vegeta = Toppo (who also one shot an earlier SSB Goku), this scaling would make no sense.

Goku may scale to a ToP Gohan, but Gohan is only likely
This is completely baseless, where are the scans my brother?

A little supporting thing for the Galactic Patrol scaling, as Goku since the Frieza Saga has always been above Piccolo. Piccolo was likely 3-B due to being able to fight Seven-Three alongside Gohan.
He is above piccolo with god transformations, do you have scans that he's above him in base? The piccolo who fought 73 was all the way in the prisoner saga, this is again scanless.

Sangabo is a character who when powered up, is enough to push back Android 17, Android 18, Gohan, and Piccolo at the same time, as well as effortlessly overpowering all of them. He is also able to effortlessly take a combined blast from Piccolo and Gohan, and this is only a few of the pieces of evidence that are here. There are more times that Gohan and Piccolo are effortlessly overpowered and having Sangabo not even taking damage from the Z-Fighters hits.

After this, he isn't even able to see Goku and gets knocked back far by him, while Goku is in base. Not even Gohan or Piccolo could see the attack that Goku made, similarly to Goku vs Jeice and Burter, so it should be scalable. Goku also combos Sangabo and more here. You may say, "But a CSSB Goku fought Sangabo too!" but that Sangabo was given more energy (and Goku still stomped him), so it's not important (if you're curious, Chapter 58, post-Page 28).

I don't think i'll need any more evidence to say that Goku is 3-B Post-Moro Arc.
0/5.
Goku was using ultra instinct sign. This was confirmed in the same chapter, in fact they were able to follow Goku in SSB so how tf would that be done in base, moro literally tells him to start using the same technique he was using for the high speed movements.
Sorry this was bad, there is like such a better way to prove this using black arc scaling, just use SSJ Black > SSB vegeta, SSG Vegeta > Rose Black.
Edit: like literally bro, here are the scans.
38.jpg

39.jpg
 
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This only scales Goku above the supreme kai's who are like large star level, who he already stomps in base, and he is clearly not on the same level as the GoDs in base.
I didn't say that Goku was = to GoD's in Base. He was able to resist Rumishii's roar, which wasn't targeted towards him. Unless Goku wasn't to some degree comparable to the GoD, you're going to tell me that Goku resisted Rumishii's roar?

Dyspo is fodder then, unless he scales to 3-B's, if he does which I'm not sure about then it doesn't mean much as saying Goku isn't bad doesn't mean you're comparable, Jiren said that many times to Goku and Vegeta while he was strong enough to one shot them both.
Goku doesn't scale, he was getting pummeled, and regardless, SSB Goku = SSB Vegeta = Toppo (who also one shot an earlier SSB Goku), this scaling would make no sense.
This one should only be used as supporting evidence, not a main point.
This is completely baseless, where are the scans my brother?
This is due to the fact that Gohan had been training for a full 3 days, and Goku had as of current been training for over 5 years. Simple scaling should dictate that Gohan < Goku.
He is above piccolo with god transformations, do you have scans that he's above him in base? The piccolo who fought 73 was all the way in the prisoner saga, this is again scanless.
Goku has consistently been shown to be above Piccolo since Dragon Ball Z, and Piccolo has never once slacked off on his training either. Again, a matter of simple scaling, and you're telling me, "Oh, Piccolo surpassed Goku because reasons.", the thing is, how or why would Piccolo be below Goku? There is no reason for it.
0/5.
Goku was using ultra instinct sign. This was confirmed in the same chapter, in fact they were able to follow Goku in SSB so how tf would that be done in base, moro literally tells him to start using the same technique he was using for the high speed movements.
Ah frick, that one I completely missed out on. I still have several more points for base Goku being 3-B, so I can still add more onto the OP. It's late rn though so the OP will be updated tomorrow with the new evidence that I have tomorrow, I just didn't think i'd have to use it.
 
I didn't say that Goku was = to GoD's in Base. He was able to resist Rumishii's roar, which wasn't targeted towards him. Unless Goku wasn't to some degree comparable to the GoD, you're going to tell me that Goku resisted Rumishii's roar?
Base Goku at that point is no where near the level of a god at all, in fact, only when he enters SSG, an actual 3-B transformation, is he stated to be on the same level as them by the hair ball GoD.

This one should only be used as supporting evidence, not a main point.
Supporting evidence to what main point?

This is due to the fact that Gohan had been training for a full 3 days, and Goku had as of current been training for over 5 years. Simple scaling should dictate that Gohan < Goku.
That is not at all how power scaling works, time spent training has no impact at all on the power growth, gohan trained for 3 days to get a god level amp, buu saga Goku trained for 7 years does that make him 3-B? No. In fact, Gohan should be stronger than TOP SSB Goku via scaling to kefla.


Goku has consistently been shown to be above Piccolo since Dragon Ball Z, and Piccolo has never once slacked off on his training either. Again, a matter of simple scaling, and you're telling me, "Oh, Piccolo surpassed Goku because reasons.", the thing is, how or why would Piccolo be below Goku? There is no reason for it.
I don't understand, what does that matter at all? You are trying to scale base Goku above moro arc piccolo, can you prove Goku is stronger than him in base and not just transformations?

Ah frick, that one I completely missed out on. I still have several more points for base Goku being 3-B, so I can still add more onto the OP. It's late rn though so the OP will be updated tomorrow with the new evidence that I have tomorrow, I just didn't think i'd have to use it
Literally none of the points you argue are enough to scale base Goku to that at all.
 
Base Goku at that point is no where near the level of a god at all, in fact, only when he enters SSG, an actual 3-B transformation, is he stated to be on the same level as them by the hair ball GoD.
That could still be negated by the fact that Goku doesn't have God Ki, and that they both have God Ki when Goku becomes a Super Saiyan God, as I also literally mentioned this argument here, meaning that you didn't fully read the OP.
Goku may not have God Ki in base however, as he didn’t have the aura of the God in Toppo’s fight until he reached SSG, and Goku didn't do any training during the Moro or Granolah the Survivor Arcs that would make him absorb God Ki into their base.
Supporting evidence to what main point?
Just supporting that Goku is 3-B. This was just added because, "eh, why not. more reasoning."
That is not at all how power scaling works, time spent training has no impact at all on the power growth, gohan trained for 3 days to get a god level amp, buu saga Goku trained for 7 years does that make him 3-B? No. In fact, Gohan should be stronger than TOP SSB Goku via scaling to kefla.
Gohan should not be superior to ToP SSB Goku, that is a wank beyond measurable. Gohan had trouble with the Trio of Danger, and was able to beat two of them. The Trio of Danger scales to Piccolo who at the time had no evidence that he was 3-B. Gohan is At least 4-B, higher when enraged, likely 3-B on his profile specifically because of the Trio of Danger.
I don't understand, what does that matter at all? You are trying to scale base Goku above moro arc piccolo, can you prove Goku is stronger than him in base and not just transformations?
I wasn't trying to prove that Base Goku is above Moro Arc Piccolo, but Super Saiyan Goku sure as hell is. Let me explain.
  • The time that Goku and Piccolo were supposed to be training for Moro, both were undergoing intense training
    • Even if you disagree that Base Goku didn't go under as intense training and didn't get as big of a power-up as Piccolo, you have to admit there's no way that Vegeta, who got so strong he couldn't even handle his own power in base couldn't have trained less than Piccolo
    • IF you say that Piccolo isn't 4-B in the Tournament of Power due to scaling to Gohan, then you're saying that Piccolo scales to Ultimate Gohan. Otherwise, Piccolo has no feats to point him to 3-B or above.
  • At this point in the story, Goku and Vegeta were already stronger than Base Piccolo. A Super Saiyan Vegeta, who is equal to Super Saiyan Goku, effortlessly stomped Frost, who was giving Piccolo trouble.
  • If Piccolo can get to 3-B with an unknown amount of time that's under a year, and Goku and Vegeta are repeatedly shown to be able to grow faster than Piccolo (in Z he started having to fuse in order to even keep up with Goku and Vegeta, and even then he was outclassed by their superior methods of training, such as Gravity Training), then shouldn't Base Goku and Base Vegeta, who were doing some of the most insane forms of training (one was training with an angel who had emotion and didn't limit themselves by calmness and one who couldn't control his power when he was done with his training on Yardratt), that they aren't naturally superior?
Naturally, you're still saying that Goku is < Piccolo because reasons still.

I currently have to do some stuff, but in about an hour the OP will be updated with the new information.
 
That could still be negated by the fact that Goku doesn't have God Ki, and that they both have God Ki when Goku becomes a Super Saiyan God, as I also literally mentioned this argument here, meaning that you didn't fully read the OP.
What does god ki have to do with anything? Goku wasn't at the level of the GoDs in base, and even in SSG when he's stated to be on their level, he is still no where near their level.

Gohan should not be superior to ToP SSB Goku, that is a wank beyond measurable. Gohan had trouble with the Trio of Danger, and was able to beat two of them. The Trio of Danger scales to Piccolo who at the time had no evidence that he was 3-B. Gohan is At least 4-B, higher when enraged, likely 3-B on his profile specifically because of the Trio of Danger.
Then the trio of danger would either scale to 3-B or gohan got stronger. Kefla is stronger than kale who slapped around SSB goku and caulifula who can fight golden frieza, yet gohan is able to stalemate her. Gohan is stronger than Goku at that point.

I wasn't trying to prove that Base Goku is above Moro Arc Piccolo, but Super Saiyan Goku sure as hell is. Let me explain.
  • The time that Goku and Piccolo were supposed to be training for Moro, both were undergoing intense training
    • Even if you disagree that Base Goku didn't go under as intense training and didn't get as big of a power-up as Piccolo, you have to admit there's no way that Vegeta, who got so strong he couldn't even handle his own power in base couldn't have trained less than Piccolo
    • IF you say that Piccolo isn't 4-B in the Tournament of Power due to scaling to Gohan, then you're saying that Piccolo scales to Ultimate Gohan. Otherwise, Piccolo has no feats to point him to 3-B or above.
The method of training, time spent training and intensity is extremely inconsistent to guage power growth and borderline unusable. For example vegeta trained in the ROSAT for longer and harder than goku yet was no where near as strong. I don't really know how piccolo scales but he's probably 4-B until the moro arc.

At this point in the story, Goku and Vegeta were already stronger than Base Piccolo. A Super Saiyan Vegeta, who is equal to Super Saiyan Goku, effortlessly stomped Frost, who was giving Piccolo trouble.
And does this piccolo scale to 3-B? Pretty sure he doesn't does he?
If Piccolo can get to 3-B with an unknown amount of time that's under a year, and Goku and Vegeta are repeatedly shown to be able to grow faster than Piccolo (in Z he started having to fuse in order to even keep up with Goku and Vegeta, and even then he was outclassed by their superior methods of training, such as Gravity Training), then shouldn't Base Goku and Base Vegeta, who were doing some of the most insane forms of training (one was training with an angel who had emotion and didn't limit themselves by calmness and one who couldn't control his power when he was done with his training on Yardratt), that they aren't naturally superior?
Again you can only use scaling and not training stuff for the reasons I gave above.
 
What does god ki have to do with anything? Goku wasn't at the level of the GoDs in base, and even in SSG when he's stated to be on their level, he is still no where near their level.
That the statement the GoD's made was that "this fight was truly at the level of the gods". The attack wasn't directed towards Goku, and it was further away from him than it was the GoD's, which is likely why he was able to handle it.
Then the trio of danger would either scale to 3-B or gohan got stronger. Kefla is stronger than kale who slapped around SSB goku and caulifula who can fight golden frieza, yet gohan is able to stalemate her. Gohan is stronger than Goku at that point.
Again, you still haven't read the "Whole Bunch of New Profiles" thread if you think that. Gohan beat Kefla due to Ultimate, Trio of Danger scales to Base Gohan.
The method of training, time spent training and intensity is extremely inconsistent to guage power growth and borderline unusable. For example vegeta trained in the ROSAT for longer and harder than goku yet was no where near as strong. I don't really know how piccolo scales but he's probably 4-B until the moro arc.

And does this piccolo scale to 3-B? Pretty sure he doesn't does he?

Again you can only use scaling and not training stuff for the reasons I gave above.
This Piccolo does scale to 3-B, you still haven't read the "Whole Bunch of New Profiles" thread.

And you're about to tell me that we don't use common sense on the VSBW? That's what the training argument is. Common sense. Piccolo hasn't even been close to Goku's level since the Buu Saga and you're telling me that because of one arc he caught up to a Super Saiyan God Goku under this wiki's current power scaling of Goku?
 
That the statement the GoD's made was that "this fight was truly at the level of the gods". The attack wasn't directed towards Goku, and it was further away from him than it was the GoD's, which is likely why he was able to handle it.
This is headcanon.

Again, you still haven't read the "Whole Bunch of New Profiles" thread if you think that. Gohan beat Kefla due to Ultimate, Trio of Danger scales to Base Gohan.
I didn't read the justifications. Oh so ultimate gohan scales to kefla and base scales to the trio of dangers, so you just debunked yourself, because you have to prove non god goku scales to ultimate gohan but you can't because ultimate gohan scales above SSB Goku.

This Piccolo does scale to 3-B, you still haven't read the "Whole Bunch of New Profiles" thread.

And you're about to tell me that we don't use common sense on the VSBW? That's what the training argument is. Common sense. Piccolo hasn't even been close to Goku's level since the Buu Saga and you're telling me that because of one arc he caught up to a Super Saiyan God Goku under this wiki's current power scaling of Goku?
We use common sense, but we also ignore inconsistencies, training is not a way to scale due to it's inconsistency.
 
This is headcanon.
It's head canon that he isn't as well. As I said, the roar wasn't directed towards Goku and was far away from him as well.
I didn't read the justifications. Oh so ultimate gohan scales to kefla and base scales to the trio of dangers, so you just debunked yourself, because you have to prove non god goku scales to ultimate gohan but you can't because ultimate gohan scales above SSB Goku.
I reread the Chapters and Kefla never slapped Goku. An off guard Goku was hit by Kale who was currently arguing with Frieza. The statement that Ultimate Gohan is > to Super Saiyan Blue Goku is head canon still.
We use common sense, but we also ignore inconsistencies, training is not a way to scale due to it's inconsistency.
So, we also ignore inconsistencies. But we will ignore that since fricking THE ORIGINAL DRAGON BALL Goku has consistently been portrayed as superior to Piccolo. The only time that Piccolo has arguably been superior is the Cell Games, when Goku had the Heart Virus and Piccolo had absorbed Kami, in which Piccolo was soon after surpassed yet again by Goku.

He remained surpassed here, from the Buu Saga (where he was COMPLETELY outclassed by even a Super Saiyan Goku, not even being noted on his profile to be superior to a SSJ Goten and Trunks, who were weaker than SSJ Goku). He continued training going into Resurrection "F", where he had to wait for Goku. He was likely < to FIRST FORM FRIEZA. He then waited for Goku, who in base proceeded to kick Final Form Frieza to the dumpster (if you say Ressurection "F" isn't canon, then just use the Rebirth of "F" manga, which is designed to fit in with the manga canon)

In the Universe 6 Saga, Piccolo is likely comparable or in-between both Base and Super Saiyan Goku/Vegeta, as he was able to tire out Frost enough to force him to cheat, but Frost didn't cheat right away like he did against Super Saiyan Goku, therefore it shouldn't be too bad to say that Base Goku < Piccolo = or < Frost (Final Form) < Super Saiyan Goku.

In the Tournament of Power, Piccolo remained being surpassed by Goku, being surprised by Android 17's strength, thinking that he and Android 17 would need to work together to defeat Botamo, before Android 17 one-shot Botamo. Android 17 is about equal to Super Saiyan 3 Goku in terms of power. It should be common knowledge that from that alone that the scaling chain here is Piccolo << Super Saiyan 3 Goku (out of training) = Android 17. This also means that Piccolo's training shouldn't net him as huge of a gain as we think, as he barely grew from the U6 Saga if he still thought him and Android 17 would be necessary to defeat Botamo, therefore we should also add to the scaling chain, Piccolo < Super Saiyan Goku < Super Saiyan 3 Goku (out of training) = Android 17.

And then, after all of that, the Moro Saga comes around. Piccolo fights against Seven-Three, who is stated to be Multi-Galaxy Level, and loses. Piccolo has consistent statistics that make him Multi-Galaxy Level. And then, you say, "Oh, but this means that SSG Goku is = to Piccolo because it's inconsistent"... yeah no that's just false.
 
I didn't read the justifications. Oh so ultimate gohan scales to kefla and base scales to the trio of dangers, so you just debunked yourself, because you have to prove non god goku scales to ultimate gohan but you can't because ultimate gohan scales above SSB Goku.
(though I will admit here, the Gohan statement now needs to be removed due to the fact that Gohan's statistics changed, therefore making my statement invalid)
 
It's head canon that he isn't as well. As I said, the roar wasn't directed towards Goku and was far away from him as well.
What is heacanon is assuming ramushi's attack gets weaker the farther you are. And second is base goku is no where near the level of the gods in base form, it's not head canon, it's fact, he's only stated that in SSG and wven that's wrong.

I reread the Chapters and Kefla never slapped Goku. An off guard Goku was hit by Kale who was currently arguing with Frieza. The statement that Ultimate Gohan
Bro you didn't read shit, oh my god. Caulifula can fight gold frieza, kale shat all over gold frieza, she almost rang out toppo and ssb vegeta, she didn't catch goku off guard at all she straight up overpowered him in blue, until he was saved by frieza. Kefla id above that and she stalemated gohan. If you dare doubt me, I'll start dropping scans.
So, we also ignore inconsistencies. But we will ignore that since fricking THE ORIGINAL DRAGON BALL Goku has consistently been portrayed as superior to Piccolo. The only time that Piccolo has arguably been superior is the Cell Games, when Goku had the Heart Virus and Piccolo had absorbed Kami, in which Piccolo was soon after surpassed yet again by Goku.

He remained surpassed here, from the Buu Saga (where he was COMPLETELY outclassed by even a Super Saiyan Goku, not even being noted on his profile to be superior to a SSJ Goten and Trunks, who were weaker than SSJ Goku). He continued training going into Resurrection "F", where he had to wait for Goku. He was likely < to FIRST FORM FRIEZA. He then waited for Goku, who in base proceeded to kick Final Form Frieza to the dumpster (if you say Ressurection "F" isn't canon, then just use the Rebirth of "F" manga, which is designed to fit in with the manga canon)

In the Universe 6 Saga, Piccolo is likely comparable or in-between both Base and Super Saiyan Goku/Vegeta, as he was able to tire out Frost enough to force him to cheat, but Frost didn't cheat right away like he did against Super Saiyan Goku, therefore it shouldn't be too bad to say that Base Goku < Piccolo = or < Frost (Final Form) < Super Saiyan Goku.

In the Tournament of Power, Piccolo remained being surpassed by Goku, being surprised by Android 17's strength, thinking that he and Android 17 would need to work together to defeat Botamo, before Android 17 one-shot Botamo. Android 17 is about equal to Super Saiyan 3 Goku in terms of power. It should be common knowledge that from that alone that the scaling chain here is Piccolo << Super Saiyan 3 Goku (out of training) = Android 17. This also means that Piccolo's training shouldn't net him as huge of a gain as we think, as he barely grew from the U6 Saga if he still thought him and Android 17 would be necessary to defeat Botamo, therefore we should also add to the scaling chain, Piccolo < Super Saiyan Goku < Super Saiyan 3 Goku (out of training) = Android 17.

And then, after all of that, the Moro Saga comes around. Piccolo fights against Seven-Three, who is stated to be Multi-Galaxy Level, and loses. Piccolo has consistent statistics that make him Multi-Galaxy Level. And then, you say, "Oh, but this means that SSG Goku is = to Piccolo because it's inconsistent"... yeah no that's just false.
None of these piccolo are multi galaxy level, the only one who is is moro saga piccolo, who Goku has no indication of scaling above him in non god forms, it's pretty much head canon. It's gotta be some kind of logical fallacy to say, goku > piccolo consistently, so goku > a stronger different piccolo.
 
What is heacanon is assuming ramushi's attack gets weaker the farther you are. And second is base goku is no where near the level of the gods in base form, it's not head canon, it's fact, he's only stated that in SSG and wven that's wrong.
That's how sound works. It gets quieter the farther away you are from the source.

Keep in mind this however:
Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku ~ Jiren > Belmond
Assuming that Goku is 3-B and that Belmond isn't the weakest GoD, this means that he in his base form, while not scaling closely to the GoD's, in his base form he's within 10,000x of them (essentially meaning that the weakest GoD should still be over 10,000x stronger than a base Goku unless proven otherwise by the SSG multiplier appearing), which based on how far away the scream was and it not even being directed towards Goku, it's basically saying here that Goku in his base form is within 10,000x of them.
Bro you didn't read shit, oh my god. Caulifula can fight gold frieza, kale shat all over gold frieza, she almost rang out toppo and ssb vegeta, she didn't catch goku off guard at all she straight up overpowered him in blue, until he was saved by frieza. Kefla id above that and she stalemated gohan. If you dare doubt me, I'll start dropping scans.
Caulfia got stomped by Golden Frieza, and an off guard Frieza was hit multiple times by Kale, and Frieza didn't even know where Kale was at the time (which leads to an argument as to whether or not this is consistent). A LSSJ Kale didn't "shit" on Golden Frieza, but did catch him severely off-guard again, before dealing quite a bit of damage to him. Breaking a guard does not equal being superior to Goku's blue state. Kefla isn't instantly >>>> Kale, PLUS, let me literally show you Krillin saying that Gohan isn't stronger than Goku as if it's common knowledge. So we have statements that Gohan is weaker than his father, and no out of head canon evidence that Kale is stronger than Golden Frieza, SSB Goku, and SSB Vegeta and Toppo (which I don't need to bring up due to SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta being equal)
None of these piccolo are multi galaxy level, the only one who is is moro saga piccolo, who Goku has no indication of scaling above him in non god forms, it's pretty much head canon. It's gotta be some kind of logical fallacy to say, goku > piccolo consistently, so goku > a stronger different piccolo.
Piccolo has not been stated to have gotten any sort of major power up in between the Moro Saga and Tournament of Power, and Piccolo and Goku have been doing about the same training. Piccolo is not stronger and different either, he merely got an upgrade due to scaling to higher tier characters. He pretty much just trained with Gohan more than he usually did, which if I do recall, didn't give him any special boost + wouldn't matter due to the fact that we don't count training as reasoning for characters being stronger than other characters.

So you're argument makes no sense. You're saying that even though a Base/SSJ Goku has consistently been stronger than a Piccolo who's undergone several MAJOR power ups throughout the series, and even those being surpassed by Goku every single time (outside of the time he was literally dying for the entire arc, when he go thte heart virus), and the time that Piccolo isn't stated to get a major powerup at all, instead just using teamwork with Gohan, you attempt to argue that this is the time Piccolo magically gets thousands of times stronger, and my statement is a logical fallacy 100%.
 
Also, Kale fighting and losing against the weaker members of the Pride Troopers doesn't help your point of Kale being > the heavy hitters of the ToP
 
Another addition: Beerus stated that when Vegeta fought him before the ToP in CSSB, Beerus stated that he could be a GoD candidate in another universe, further supporting that Belmond is not the weakest GoD if:

Jiren > Belmond > Other GoD's (who would take Vegeta as a GoD Candidate) > Toppo (as a GoD Candidate) > Vegeta (as those other GoD candidates)
 
Also fun fact jiren mentioned that ssj blue evolution vegeta was actually stronger then frist UI omen Goku in the manga and ssj blue evolution Vegeta blew back toppo as well who previously fought on par with cssjb Goku and only beat him thanks to a lucky shot
 
Also fun fact jiren mentioned that ssj blue evolution vegeta was actually stronger then frist UI omen Goku in the manga and ssj blue evolution Vegeta blew back toppo as well who previously fought on par with cssjb Goku and only beat him thanks to a lucky shot
I think Jiren said, "You struck harder than anyone i've ever fought beside Goku in his ascended state moments ago,"
 
If FluffyCreatureZ doesn't have any rebuttal, can someone contact some of the staff members who are knowledgeable on Dragon Ball to come give their opinions on this? (as staff word > common word)
 
That's how sound works. It gets quieter the farther away you are from the source.

Keep in mind this however:
Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku ~ Jiren > Belmond
Assuming that Goku is 3-B and that Belmond isn't the weakest GoD, this means that he in his base form, while not scaling closely to the GoD's, in his base form he's within 10,000x of them (essentially meaning that the weakest GoD should still be over 10,000x stronger than a base Goku unless proven otherwise by the SSG multiplier appearing), which based on how far away the scream was and it not even being directed towards Goku, it's basically saying here that Goku in his base form is within 10,000x of them.
You need actual proof from the show on how ramushi's technique works, it wasn't more effective for the GoDs closer than the ones farther, everyone was effected the same regardless of strength.
Wtf? Where did you get 10000x from? No matter, you are saying "assuming goku is 3-B", so you are trying to prove that goku is 3-B by assuming goku is already 3-B. Also the gap isn't quantifiable, I have no idea whwere you got 10000x from but the SSG and UI gaps are completely unknown so the gap between goku and the gods is unquantifiably large.

Caulfia got stomped by Golden Frieza, and an off guard Frieza was hit multiple times by Kale, and Frieza didn't even know where Kale was at the time (which leads to an argument as to whether or not this is consistent). A LSSJ Kale didn't "shit" on Golden Frieza, but did catch him severely off-guard again, before dealing quite a bit of damage to him. Breaking a guard does not equal being superior to Goku's blue state. Kefla isn't instantly >>>> Kale, PLUS, let me literally show you Krillin saying that Gohan isn't stronger than Goku as if it's common knowledge. So we have statements that Gohan is weaker than his father, and no out of head canon evidence that Kale is stronger than Golden Frieza, SSB Goku, and SSB Vegeta and Toppo (which I don't need to bring up due to SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta being equal)
Caulifula may have been weaker than feieza but she scales to hit, she can actually damage him for a fact, and take many many hits from him while not holding back. Guess what, kale is stronger than her in base form. Also you are straight up lying, frieza watched kale transform and knew exactly where she was, in fact he got speed blitzed mid sentence to kale, you are lying about him getting caught off guard, you also don't keep getting off guard, frieza got ragdolled, frieza straight up got stomped by kale.
This is SSB goku getting overpowered by kale, and getting his guard broken. Ans yes this does mean kale is stronger than Goku, and also kefla is >>>> kale, this is also a scan of kale almost ringing out vegeta and toppo who scale to goku and toppo had to get saved by dyspo, stop this shitty downplay, gohan is just really strong and your argument is wrong.
And krillin's statement is either taken out of context or krillin is stupid, give me a chapter and page number.


Piccolo has not been stated to have gotten any sort of major power up in between the Moro Saga and Tournament of Power, and Piccolo and Goku have been doing about the same training. Piccolo is not stronger and different either, he merely got an upgrade due to scaling to higher tier characters. He pretty much just trained with Gohan more than he usually did, which if I do recall, didn't give him any special boost + wouldn't matter due to the fact that we don't count training as reasoning for characters being stronger than other characters.

So you're argument makes no sense. You're saying that even though a Base/SSJ Goku has consistently been stronger than a Piccolo who's undergone several MAJOR power ups throughout the series, and even those being surpassed by Goku every single time (outside of the time he was literally dying for the entire arc, when he go thte heart virus), and the time that Piccolo isn't stated to get a major powerup at all, instead just using teamwork with Gohan, you attempt to argue that this is the time Piccolo magically gets thousands of times stronger, and my statement is a logical fallacy 100%.
Uh, yes he has, he went from solar system fodder to gohan level, that is a giant power boost. It is your argument that's stupid, you are literally trying to argue that piccolo was weaker than goku before, then he can't be stronger than him now, that's stupid, it's like saying vegeta has always been stronger than Goku prior to saiyan saga, so during their fight in the saiyan saga, vegeta must be still stronger than goku. Do you see how stupid that sounds?
 
You need actual proof from the show on how ramushi's technique works, it wasn't more effective for the GoDs closer than the ones farther, everyone was effected the same regardless of strength.
Wtf? Where did you get 10000x from? No matter, you are saying "assuming goku is 3-B", so you are trying to prove that goku is 3-B by assuming goku is already 3-B. Also the gap isn't quantifiable, I have no idea whwere you got 10000x from but the SSG and UI gaps are completely unknown so the gap between goku and the gods is unquantifiably large.
https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Battle_Roar
It's literally a voice based attack, usable because Ramusshi has the loudest voice in the universe.
10,000x is the bare minimum multiplier for Super Saiyan Blue (Super Saiyan God i'm sure as an extreme lowball is 500x base form, and then SSB's multiplier is 10x. It's completely irrelevant to my arguement). Assuming 3-B means that assuming that my argument is correct lmao. The gap between the GoD's and Goku is unknown, yes, but what i'm saying is that to some degree (albeit MUCH MUCH weaker, though not by trillions and trillions of times) Goku is comparable due to the fact that Ramusshi's Battle Roar was both not intended to reach Goku, only the GoD's who were on the tournament arena. The argument isn't that Goku is = to the GoDs, nor is it that Goku is 10,000x weaker than the GoD's, it's that Goku is significantly weaker than them, which is still 3-B either way.

The main way that I personally also think Ramusshi's Battle Roar works (upon closer inspection of the profiles), it works by Ramusshi temporarily stopping the nerves in the body. Someone who was significantly weaker than the roar, like the Supreme Kai, who is High 4-C, would instantly faint due to the roar being that powerful in terms of raw strength/ki. For those who are within even a "fraction" of the roars output, they suffer paralysis, but not being knocked out. This scales Goku in his base form, not to the Gods of Destructions (ESPECIALLY the weakest ones who Goku has already surpassed by utilizing Ultra Instinct), but in the same ballpark as them, or in this case, the same tier that has the biggest quantifiable gap in the entirety of the VS Battles wiki, so the question is, is Base Goku realistically >>>billions of times weaker than the GoD's, or is he realistically only millions of times weaker than them?
Caulifula may have been weaker than feieza but she scales to hit, she can actually damage him for a fact, and take many many hits from him while not holding back. Guess what, kale is stronger than her in base form. Also you are straight up lying, frieza watched kale transform and knew exactly where she was, in fact he got speed blitzed mid sentence to kale, you are lying about him getting caught off guard, you also don't keep getting off guard, frieza got ragdolled, frieza straight up got stomped by kale.
This is SSB goku getting overpowered by kale, and getting his guard broken. Ans yes this does mean kale is stronger than Goku, and also kefla is >>>> kale, this is also a scan of kale almost ringing out vegeta and toppo who scale to goku and toppo had to get saved by dyspo, stop this shitty downplay, gohan is just really strong and your argument is wrong.
I'd like to see scans for Caulifa being = to Hit, because that would be great to add as a "possibly" on the Chou profiles thread. Currently, on there, Caulifa is 4-B due to scaling to Cabba (who scales to U6 Saga SSJ Vegeta) and also needing to go Super Saiyan to get the upper hand on Final Form Frieza, which yet again, just like the Hit profile, is an example of them both being 4-B and 3-B at the same time for no good reason.

The scan that you posted of Frieza watching Kale transform LITERALLY shows Frieza looking away and being like, "Man your super saiyan ain't got no game" and then getting caught off guard by the attack.

Kale is literally mentioned as her 3-B reasoning on her profile that she didn't give Frieza a single chance to counterattack during that section where she ragdolls him. Frieza did not straight up get stomped by Kale. You later again do not show SSB Goku getting overpowered by Kale, you show him blocking her attacks and then him getting his guard broken, which means what exactly? That Kale is able to break Goku's guard when he's not expecting it, clearly emphasized by the "!!!"? Vegeta and Toppo almost getting knocked out is based on knockback, which doesn't scale to attack potency.

Plus, your arguement also kind of falls apart when you realize that the weaker Universe 11 fighters (who were taken out by Master ******' Roshi) gained the upper hand on Kale, damaged her, and then almost defeated her. The most likely explanation here is that what is above is known as a "Toriyama Handjob", where Krillin matches a Super Saiyan Blue Goku's Kamehameha and Gohan is brought up to Super Saiyan Blue level after a day of training in the anime.

And now, you're also ignoring Moro Saga Gohan (who has again, gotten much stronger than before, and has gotten stronger than the Tournament of Power, had promptly decided to get >>>CSSB Goku in the Tournament of Power before going back down to <<<CSSB Goku an arc later, which is where the Sangabo feat can help) and instead cherry picking. Gohan has only been stated to have regained his battle sense from Piccolo as well, one of the most intelligent Z-Fighters, and not have been significantly more powerful than before. Gohan in Chapter 54 Page 6 and 7 effortlessly defeated a Seven-Three clone of Piccolo so you can't use this to justify Piccolo being = to Gohan blah blah blah you get it.
Uh, yes he has, he went from solar system fodder to gohan level, that is a giant power boost. It is your argument that's stupid, you are literally trying to argue that piccolo was weaker than goku before, then he can't be stronger than him now, that's stupid, it's like saying vegeta has always been stronger than Goku prior to saiyan saga, so during their fight in the saiyan saga, vegeta must be still stronger than goku. Do you see how stupid that sounds?
My argument is that since Piccolo has repeatedly stated to have a lower level of potential growth that Goku, and Goku has been superior to him for 11 DAMN ARCS (Piccolo Jr. Saga, Saiyan Saga, Frieza Saga, Android Saga, Cell Saga, Buu Saga, Battle of Gods, Resurrection F, Universe 6 Saga, Goku Black Saga, Universe Survival Saga, and in time equivalents that's for 20+ years) And with your Vegeta argument, Goku underwent multiple zenkais to catch up to Vegeta, underwent training Vegeta never even though of doing, while also having pretty much the exact same potential as Goku, and Vegeta was most importantly superior to Goku for one arc.

And for one, I consider Piccolo going from Solar System Level to Multi-Galaxy Level bananas if someone he has been constantly weaker than him just gets surpassed for absolutely no reason at all here, even when Piccolo has gotten these massive power-ups that are meant to put him at the top of the pack and balance him (notably when he absorbed Nail and Kami), and he's still been outclassed or comparable to a Base/Super Saiyan Goku the entire time.

The argument that his power boost from Solar System Level Fodder to Gohan Level is also heavily flawed as well, as Piccolo was usually only assisting Gohan while Gohan was the one dealing heavy damage. The only actual feat the Piccolo had was being able to fight Seven-Three who had his own abilities, with difficulty.
 
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