Another Content Revision Thread Regarding Tekken Scalings.

[The_Web_Adventurer]

It's been God knows how long, but I was finally able to return to VS Battles! Yay. I was too busy and too lazy to even bother with the site and to deal with the whole forum transfer thing years ago. But none of it matters now, all that matters is that I, a Tekken supporter, am finally back to try my luck in contributing to Tekken as a verse.





It's been about a year now since this thread took place, and reading (or skimming) it was… not pleasant, to say the least. Less on the fact that I was pretty bummed on the (reasonable) downgrade, but more on the fact on how it degraded into a nonstop primitive war of fallacy-flinging at one point.



But anyway, whatever toxicity was injected into that thread isn't my main topic. I'm here to share my argument that hopefully would be enough to upgrade the verse again when all is said and done, not play hero and call out people.

Now that BlackDarkness679 hasn't done their expected Content Revision on the verse after the aforementioned thread (at least, AFAIK), I’ll take their place and be the one doing that instead. Hope I succeed in upgrading the verse, even if just for a tiny bit!


Let's start.





I have nothing to say regarding the Jack meteor downgrade, honestly. I think the arguments behind it are valid. It being Large Mountain to Island kind of makes more sense in terms of being consistent with the verse's power.

Okay, I was pretty surprised at the massive downgrade the other characters went through honestly. From tier 7 to 8? Yeah, this is my main issue, the part where I disagreed with, even after reading the thread’s entirety. I will be elaborating as this goes on.


So my first thought is regarding Gunjack’s feat in his ending in Tekken 3. The supposed bad ending doesn't really imply that they got obliterated outright. IIRC, it was just purposely made to look like they died for players to discover after playing Gunjack again in arcade mode that the ending was actually incomplete. It does not outright imply that Jack dies/got obliterated; it just implies that their fate was left ambiguous. Whether or not Jack could've survived is left into interpretation until you get the full clip. Maybe, he would’ve indeed died, maybe he could actually tank it, but had to activate the shield anyway to protect Jane (the girl) from the massive blast. Either way, saying that the blast would kill him is nothing but assumption, unfortunately. I can also make an assumption that if Jack can activate a force field strong enough to withstand nukes, it also means he needs to have a similar or higher level of AP/DC/Durability in order to achieve it; he needs to be strong enough to keep the shield up against the massive amount of force being pushed down on him. It's an assumption that makes as much sense as the ones the participants on the thread formulated, but at the end of the day, an assumption is an assumption; it’s not something concrete and unfortunately there can be no conclusions on this and on whether or not the mid and high tiers scale to his feat unless we do a vote regarding which one everyone thinks makes the most sense/is the most accurate.


Also, I want this Jack 2 Ending to be calced. I stumbled across a calc of this somewhere in the site a few years ago but couldn't find it anymore. Seeing how the laser affected the clouds and the height between it and the island, I would expect it to be City Block at the lowest and Town at the highest, but I could be wrong, of course. Either way, it needs a calc.


Regarding the Jinpachi storm feat: the storm in the original Tekken 5 is Large town to City level, IIRC.

The version of the storm in Dark Resurrection is Island+ at the low end and Country or even higher at max. Buuut… we’ll save this one argument of which version is more appropriate to use in the future CRT’s, stick with the original storm for now, and focus on the main topic, lest we might end up with some issues or something.


It's less likely that it's simply ED considering he creates the storm upon transforming, implying it's created by his own AP, which means Jinpachi very much scales to it. And the characters who are shown to be able to beat him (i.e the Mishimas, canonically and specifically Jin) are either on par or above Demon Jinpachi’s AP. And everyone who also scales to the Mishimas scale to the storm feat, which is Tier 7 at the minimum.


Jinpachi was clearly defeated by Base Jin and Base Jin in turn was canonically defeated by Hwoarang in a fight that's fair and square.


It's also well known that Steve is one of Hwoarang’s rivals; they fought in Tekken 5 and it's pretty clear they're on par with each other. And on Tekken 8, they're confirmed rivals, which means Steve scales to Hwoarang, who in turn scales to Base Jin, who is above Demon Jinpachi.


Steve on the other hand is friends with Paul Phoenix and both Laws, and all of them are sparring partners, which means they scale to each other.


And Paul is also seen fighting Bryan on equal footing in Tekken 6, and also implies that he and Bryan are similar enough in power to scale to each other.


Kuma and Panda trained with Heihachi, which also implies they're sparring partners as well. It's well known that Kuma is one of Paul’s rivals; yes, he was defeated by Kuma in Tekken 4, the time where Paul was at his lowest, but overall that was the only time he was actually canonically defeated by Kuma; Paul beats his father Kuma I in Tekken 1 and 2, he beats Kuma II in both Tekken 3 and 5, and also beats Panda in Tekken 7. It's not canon, but it seems like we’re okay with it as long as it doesn't contradict anything canon, but Paul is seen knocking out Kuma in a single punch in Tekken Tag 1. If that's not enough, Paul and Kazuya used to be rivals too, and they once fought to a standstill.


Paul also was able to beat Ogre; the dude who was able to kill the first King and defeat Baek Doo San, who is canonically the master of Hwoarang. Baek and Marshall Law also used to be rivals in Tekken 2.


Steve also fought and DEFEATED Nina in a fight canonically, who once went up against Heihachi and survived. Regarding this, Continuum19 was also making assumptions when they stated that Heihachi was holding back against Nina when there's no concrete proof of that. He may or may not have been holding back, but there is no proof for either. But either way, she lasted longer against the old man than a bunch of Jack 6 units, which is reasonable to say that she also scales to the storm feat AND the Jack 6 feat.


Speaking of which, I'm now even more confident in saying that all characters from God to Mid tier scale to the Jack 6 feat. That includes the bears, Paul Phoenix, Lee Chaolan, Alisa, Bryan, Feng, Law, Steve, Hwoarang, both Kings, Marduk, Wang Jinrei, Feng, the Williams Sisters, Xiaoyu, (side note: she's also seen effortlessly knocking down a previous model, the Jack 5 (timestamp is 0:30) in Tekken 5, and is most likely going to fight a squad of Jack 7’s in Tekken 8 seeing as she’s in the Yakushima stage during the time a squad of Jack 7’s landed there around the mark 0:48 in this video; it's an assumption but it's worth noting as we'll eventually find out if this is the case next month upon Tekken 8's release), basically everyone labelled as 8-B.


They should be higher. They should be Tier 7.


Additional note (this is based on assumption a bit, so it's only an additional note and not a main argument; accurate or not, it doesn't really affect the scaling as a whole):

Wang Jinrei and Jinpachi are friends, and it can be assumed they used to be sparring partners as well, and Wang defeating Jinpachi, IIRC, was supposed to be Tekken 5’s original canon ending (and it's kind of obvious, as it's the best written Tekken 5 ending imo and it’s pretty heartbreaking too) before Harada decided to go canonize Jim's ending for the basis of Tekken 6's plot instead. We also see him one-shotting and literally SHATTERING Azazel’s body to pieces in Tekken 6, tho it cost him his life. Wang's endings in both games are non-canon officially, but it's pretty clear that the games portray him to be very powerful.



So what does everyone think about my arguments?

 

[The_Web_Adventurer]

Bump

 

[BlackDarkness679]

You realize staff will ask you for proof on most claims, like the endings and all, let alone a little more organized then this

 

[The_Web_Adventurer]

You realize staff will ask you for proof on most claims, like the endings and all, let alone a little more organized then this

I'm aware. I won't put this out here if I don't have something I can use as proof.

If they're confused about something, anything I wrote, I'm present to answer and clarify.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

I have nothing to say regarding the Jack meteor downgrade, honestly. I think the arguments behind it are valid. It being Large Mountain to Island kind of makes more sense in terms of being consistent with the verse's power.

None of the arguments were valid, they were simply headcanon coming from G1 blogs, whom proven themselves unreliable several times

Especially since the Jacks have a level of power increasing with each model that makes no sense for the meteor to be 7-A or 6-C only

So my first thought is regarding Gunjack’s feat in his ending in Tekken 3. The supposed bad ending doesn't really imply that they got obliterated outright. IIRC, it was just purposely made to look like they died for players to discover after playing Gunjack again in arcade mode that the ending was actually incomplete. It does not outright imply that Jack dies/got obliterated; it just implies that their fate was left ambiguous. Whether or not Jack could've survived is left into interpretation until you get the full clip. Maybe, he would’ve indeed died, maybe he could actually tank it, but had to activate the shield anyway to protect Jane (the girl) from the massive blast. Either way, saying that the blast would kill him is nothing but assumption, unfortunately. I can also make an assumption that if Jack can activate a force field strong enough to withstand nukes, it also means he needs to have a similar or higher level of AP/DC/Durability in order to achieve it; he needs to be strong enough to keep the shield up against the massive amount of force being pushed down on him. It's an assumption that makes as much sense as the ones the participants on the thread formulated, but at the end of the day, an assumption is an assumption; it’s not something concrete and unfortunately there can be no conclusions on this and on whether or not the mid and high tiers scale to his feat unless we do a vote regarding which one everyone thinks makes the most sense/is the most accurate.

Jack 2 already died to the same satellite, makes no sense for Gun Jack to die as well to the same thing as his inferior model, let alone the incomplete ending and jane being carried by him

Also, I want this Jack 2 Ending to be calced. I stumbled across a calc of this somewhere in the site a few years ago but couldn't find it anymore. Seeing how the laser affected the clouds and the height between it and the island, I would expect it to be City Block at the lowest and Town at the highest, but I could be wrong, of course. Either way, it needs a calc.

A calc from another fandom had it at town or city level, its not relevant since the gun jack one from that same place was in the hundreds of megatons

The version of the storm in Dark Resurrection is Island+ at the low end and Country or even higher at max. Buuut… we’ll save this one argument of which version is more appropriate to use in the future CRT’s, stick with the original storm for now, and focus on the main topic, lest we might end up with some issues or something.

Dark Ressurection is the updated version of tekken 5, adding characters like lili, dragunov and such, it is the more appropiate version, much like how street fighter uses the latest version of a game mainly

It's less likely that it's simply ED considering he creates the storm upon transforming, implying it's created by his own AP, which means Jinpachi very much scales to it.

Characters with generic dialogue vs Jinpachi has his transformation create the storm and end once he dies or is way ko-ed from the demon form, its scales physically

And the characters who are shown to be able to beat him (i.e the Mishimas, canonically and specifically Jin) are either on par or above Demon Jinpachi’s AP. And everyone who also scales to the Mishimas scale to the storm feat, which is Tier 7 at the minimum.

Demon Jinpachi in Jin words is no match for him according to T6 recap from scenario campaign or even the recaps added in T8 now as well, same jist as Alisa being claimed by herself as no match to Lars, Jinpachi is a mid tier like her

Base Jin in turn was canonically defeated by Hwoarang in a fight that's fair and square.

Jin didnt care to fight him as much as hwoarang did, both stories Jin says he has better things to do, even when Jin loses he is whatever about it, let alone Jin story in T5 was struggling with the devil gene, that ended up with Devil Jin killing his rival, its not as fair as some think, also the netflix anime had Jin beat him along the draw stated in bios and dialogue by Hwoarang in T8

It's also well known that Steve is one of Hwoarang’s rivals; they fought in Tekken 5 and it's pretty clear they're on par with each other. And on Tekken 8, they're confirmed rivals, which means Steve scales to Hwoarang, who in turn scales to Base Jin, who is above Demon Jinpachi.

Steve on the other hand is friends with Paul Phoenix and both Laws, and all of them are sparring partners, which means they scale to each other.

Steve is depicted in T5 prologue fighting Paul, which is a better existing argument, along implications from fighting Lei Wulong that he will take care of Feng if he crosses paths with him

And Paul is also seen fighting Bryan on equal footing in Tekken 6, and also implies that he and Bryan are similar enough in power to scale to each other.

Tekken 8 has a special intro where they do the same thing in Tekken 6 opening

Kuma and Panda trained with Heihachi, which also implies they're sparring partners as well. It's well known that Kuma is one of Paul’s rivals; yes, he was defeated by Kuma in Tekken 4, the time where Paul was at his lowest, but overall that was the only time he was actually canonically defeated by Kuma;

Kuma also made him in T5 be too tired to continue the tournament, that comes under feats for modern Paul

Paul beats his father Kuma I in Tekken 1 and 2, he beats Kuma II in both Tekken 3 and 5, and also beats Panda in Tekken 7. It's not canon, but it seems like we’re okay with it as long as it doesn't contradict anything canon, but Paul is seen knocking out Kuma in a single punch in Tekken Tag 1. If that's not enough, Paul and Kazuya used to be rivals too, and they once fought to a standstill.

Prime Paul was feat wise more impressive then Modern Paul, something which in the poorly made downgrade was ignored, latter struggles with bears, which former never had an issue ever, tag 1 is the most in your face showing of the gap in power the two keys of Paul have, along their record

Paul also was able to beat Ogre; the dude who was able to kill the first King and defeat Baek Doo San, who is canonically the master of Hwoarang. Baek and Marshall Law also used to be rivals in Tekken 2.

Ogre in the anime gave Jin trouble, as well as having for the most an upperhand against Jun, which according to Jin, Jun was the strongest female fighter he knew, even when he saw Nina vs Xiaoyu

Steve also fought and DEFEATED Nina in a fight canonically, who once went up against Heihachi and survived. Regarding this, Continuum19 was also making assumptions when they stated that Heihachi was holding back against Nina when there's no concrete proof of that. He may or may not have been holding back, but there is no proof for either. But either way, she lasted longer against the old man than a bunch of Jack 6 units, which is reasonable to say that she also scales to the storm feat AND the Jack 6 feat.

Her scaling to Alisa is more then enough, whom kills a Jack 6 on screen and puts it down unlike the meteor who didnt do it

Speaking of which, I'm now even more confident in saying that all characters from God to Mid tier scale to the Jack 6 feat. That includes the bears, Paul Phoenix, Lee Chaolan, Alisa, Bryan, Feng, Law, Steve, Hwoarang, both Kings, Marduk, Wang Jinrei, Feng, the Williams Sisters, Xiaoyu, (side note: she's also seen effortlessly knocking down a previous model, the Jack 5 (timestamp is 0:30) in Tekken 5

Mid tiers all scale to Jack 6, cuz he is himself a mid tier

and is most likely going to fight a squad of Jack 7’s in Tekken 8 seeing as she’s in the Yakushima stage during the time a squad of Jack 7’s landed there around the mark 0:48 in this video; it's an assumption but it's worth noting

Leroy points out Xiaoyu got stronger then before, as well as herself saying it too in specific dialogues

Wang Jinrei and Jinpachi are friends, and it can be assumed they used to be sparring partners as well, and Wang defeating Jinpachi, IIRC, was supposed to be Tekken 5’s original canon ending (and it's kind of obvious, as it's the best written Tekken 5 ending imo and it’s pretty heartbreaking too) before Harada decided to go canonize Jim's ending for the basis of Tekken 6's plot instead.

Wang already has a feat in old bios fighting Jun, along a draw with Law too, without reliance on Jinpachi scaling

We also see him one-shotting and literally SHATTERING Azazel’s body to pieces in Tekken 6, even if it cost him his life.

No for scaling him to Azazel, Azazel is meant to be a Mishima level character, Jin oficially beat him in T5 too

As for the shattering thing, its due to Azazel having death hax, Baek does a similar thing to him and dies due to that

 

[The_Web_Adventurer]

None of the arguments were valid, they were simply headcanon coming from G1 blogs, whom proven themselves unreliable several times

Especially since the Jacks have a level of power increasing with each model that makes no sense for the meteor to be 7-A or 6-C only

Yeah, I'm not even going to try engaging in an argument about this. This isn't the main topic of the thread I intended, so I'm not going to try. Please make another CRT of you discussing this in the future instead.

Jack 2 already died to the same satellite, makes no sense for Gun Jack to die as well to the same thing as his inferior model, let alone the incomplete ending and jane being carried by him

A calc from another fandom had it at town or city level, its not relevant since the gun jack one from that same place was in the hundreds of megatons

So still Tier 7. Good to know.

Dark Ressurection is the updated version of tekken 5, adding characters like lili, dragunov and such, it is the more appropiate version, much like how street fighter uses the latest version of a game mainly

I'm aware it's the updated version of T5. It's unnecessary to state the obvious, no offense. Once again, not the main topic, but thank you for your input in this one regardless.

Characters with generic dialogue vs Jinpachi has his transformation create the storm and end once he dies or is way ko-ed from the demon form, its scales physically

Demon Jinpachi in Jin words is no match for him according to T6 recap from scenario campaign or even the recaps added in T8 now as well, same jist as Alisa being claimed by herself as no match to Lars, Jinpachi is a mid tier like her

Also something I'm aware and agree with. But once again thanks for stating it for the future readers/participants of the thread.

Jin didnt care to fight him as much as hwoarang did, both stories Jin says he has better things to do, even when Jin loses he is whatever about it, let alone Jin story in T5 was struggling with the devil gene, that ended up with Devil Jin killing his rival, its not as fair as some think, also the netflix anime had Jin beat him along the draw stated in bios and dialogue by Hwoarang in T8

Another something I was aware and agreed with.
Regardless of whether or not Jin was being serious, Hwoarang still knocked him out enough to trigger his devil form, which means Hwoarang scales, and he still scales no matter how everyone denies it.

Steve is depicted in T5 prologue fighting Paul, which is a better existing argument, along implications from fighting Lei Wulong that he will take care of Feng if he crosses paths with him

Fair, I guess.

Tekken 8 has a special intro where they do the same thing in Tekken 6 opening

I know. Hwo and Steve's special intros also provide more evidence that they're on par with each other.

Kuma also made him in T5 be too tired to continue the tournament, that comes under feats for modern Paul

Prime Paul was feat wise more impressive then Modern Paul, something which in the poorly made downgrade was ignored, latter struggles with bears, which former never had an issue ever, tag 1 is the most in your face showing of the gap in power the two keys of Paul have, along their record

Ogre in the anime gave Jin trouble, as well as having for the most an upperhand against Jun, which according to Jin, Jun was the strongest female fighter he knew, even when he saw Nina vs Xiaoyu

I'll ignore the Prime vs Modern Paul issue thingy. Somehwhat relevant but unnecessary for this topic. What's important is that he consistently scales to the upper tiers, and he does, and that's it. End of story. Thank you.

Okay, for now we won't be touching Tekken Bloodline in this CRT as we need more specific details on which aspects of it are canon and which are not. Please do not argue with this one; it will be useless, because I will not engage and just ignore it.

Paul's feat defeating Base Ogre is still valid.

Her scaling to Alisa is more then enough, whom kills a Jack 6 on screen and puts it down unlike the meteor who didnt do it

Mid tiers all scale to Jack 6, cuz he is himself a mid tier

Leroy points out Xiaoyu got stronger then before, as well as herself saying it too in specific dialogues

Fair, I guess.

Wang already has a feat in old bios fighting Jun, along a draw with Law too, without reliance on Jinpachi scaling

Good to know.

No for scaling him to Azazel, Azazel is meant to be a Mishima level character, Jin oficially beat him in T5 too

As for the shattering thing, its due to Azazel having death hax, Baek does a similar thing to him and dies due to that

Dude, I wasn't even trying to scale Wang to Azazel. You misread, no offense. There's a reason why I never brought up Baek killing Azazel when I mentioned the guy. My point is that the games imply that Wang's powerful in his own right, and that's it. The Wang part of my argument is an Additional Notes for a reason; it's just something noteworthy, doesn't affect my whole argument at all whether refuted or not.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

I'm aware it's the updated version of T5. It's unnecessary to state the obvious, no offense. Once again, not the main topic, but thank you for your input in this one regardless.

I stated it cuz there is no wrong using that feat, updated version takes priority over vanilla version

Another something I was aware and agreed with.
Regardless of whether or not Jin was being serious, Hwoarang still knocked him out enough to trigger his devil form, which means Hwoarang scales, and he still scales no matter how everyone denies it.

Point im making, Hwoarang unlike what some may say isnt a top tier, that placement is strictly Mishimas (except Kazumi and Jinpachi) and those matching a Mishima to the point they actually struggle or are going serious, Azazel and Akuma being others

High tiers are scaling to casual Mishimas, not their best, is what im getting at and where im placing Hwoarang, he is a rival, but in friendly bouts and all, he isnt fighting a Jin on levels similar to when he fights Kaz or Hei

I'll ignore the Prime vs Modern Paul issue thingy. Somehwhat relevant but unnecessary for this topic. What's important is that he consistently scales to the upper tiers, and he does, and that's it. End of story. Thank you.

Its quite relevant, cuz modern Paul isnt on the level his prime was and that distinction has to be made, especially cuz the poorly made downgrade denied this gap for no reason to place him lower in tier for no reason

Okay, for now we won't be touching Tekken Bloodline in this CRT as we need more specific details on which aspects of it are canon and which are not. Please do not argue with this one; it will be useless, because I will not engage and just ignore it.

We dont need any specifics, we use info within reason like with Blood Vengeance movie

Dude, I wasn't even trying to scale Wang to Azazel. You misread, no offense. There's a reason why I never brought up Baek killing Azazel when I mentioned the guy. My point is that the games imply that Wang's powerful in his own right, and that's it. The Wang part of my argument is an Additional Notes for a reason; it's just something noteworthy, doesn't affect my whole argument at all whether refuted or not.

Its no reason to use Azazel tho for it, the old bios alone provide enough material for his placement as mid tier, the Azazel thing is more to display the monster supernatural ability, which happens in Baek too rather then display their power

The verse requires a definitive tier list to where each character is at, with all info they have at hand, because several users in the poorly made downgrade placed characters where they felt like with no proof, like raven, hwoarang as top tiers, bears, paul, bryan, feng as mid tiers or kazumi as low tier, etc

Let alone the Jack models from Gun Jack to Jack 7, they are in different tiers, not just a mere "higher then before" from last one and thats it, this is relevant as Jack are the most important scaling for many characters

 

[Continuum19]

I think I'll just lurk here for a little bit.

 

[The_Web_Adventurer]

I stated it cuz there is no wrong using that feat, updated version takes priority over vanilla version

Point im making, Hwoarang unlike what some may say isnt a top tier, that placement is strictly Mishimas (except Kazumi and Jinpachi) and those matching a Mishima to the point they actually struggle or are going serious, Azazel and Akuma being others

High tiers are scaling to casual Mishimas, not their best, is what im getting at and where im placing Hwoarang, he is a rival, but in friendly bouts and all, he isnt fighting a Jin on levels similar to when he fights Kaz or Hei

I hope you're aware that the logic you applied in this implies that Hwoarang is above Jinpachi, right? Jin was holding back against Jinpachi and won as you stated (you pointing out that Jinpachi wasn't a challenge to him, which means he has no reason of going all out), and you also stated that he did the same thing against Hwoarang, and got knocked out to the point where his devil side took over. Logically, Hwoarang would be above Demon Jinpachi. This also means that, while contradicting canon, Baek defeating Azazel is somewhat (not fully, do not confuse; Jin claimed that only someone with the Gene can fully defeat Azazel IIRC) consistent to the scalings.

Its no reason to use Azazel tho for it, the old bios alone provide enough material for his placement as mid tier, the Azazel thing is more to display the monster supernatural ability, which happens in Baek too rather then display their power

Fine, I don't mind.

The verse requires a definitive tier list to where each character is at, with all info they have at hand, because several users in the poorly made downgrade placed characters where they felt like with no proof, like raven, hwoarang as top tiers, bears, paul, bryan, feng as mid tiers or kazumi as low tier, etc

Let alone the Jack models from Gun Jack to Jack 7, they are in different tiers, not just a mere "higher then before" from last one and thats it, this is relevant as Jack are the most important scaling for many characters

This one I would agree with.

 

[The_Web_Adventurer]

I think I'll just lurk here for a little bit.

Ah, Continuum. You're here. Hello. I wanna ask you these questions:

What was your reasoning for saying that Heihachi was holding back against Nina when you've provided no proof of this being the case?

What is your current stance regarding Jinpachi's storm feat? Are you now agreeing with it being his AP or are you still in the opinion of it being ED? Whatever the answer, please explain your reasoning.

 

[Continuum19]

Ah, Continuum. You're here. Hello. I wanna ask you these questions:

What was your reasoning for saying that Heihachi was holding back against Nina when you've provided no proof of this being the case?

What I said in the original thread was that Heihachi needed Nina's assistance in managing things for the 7th Tekken tournament so it wouldn't make sense for him to seriously injure her.

What is your current stance regarding Jinpachi's storm feat? Are you now agreeing with it being his AP or are you still in the opinion of it being ED? Whatever the answer, please explain your reasoning.

I'm still not sure how I feel about it currently.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

I hope you're aware that the logic you applied in this implies that Hwoarang is above Jinpachi, right?

You know i said above Jinpachi is a mid tier, since Jin points out wasnt a challenge to him, much like Alisa herself said to Lars in theirs, even with Heihachi in T5 even tho non canon its the same thing, demon or not, Jinpachi is no match to him according to Heihachi

Jinpachi is a mid tier as both human and demon form, the gap between them is never pointed to be big and since Jinpachi as human in his ending was able to against Young Heihachi hold his ground and all, its a gap of unknown degree that seems not too huge

Yeah Hwoarang is above Jinpachi in these forms, i never denied it

Jin was holding back against Jinpachi and won as you stated (you pointing out that Jinpachi wasn't a challenge to him, which means he has no reason of going all out)

Thats not what it means, it means he stomped him, you say somebody is no match to you, means you are above them, either way Jin > Jinpachi big time

Also remember that Jin said in T5 in his dialogue with him, that he will end this evil for good, no reason to hold back

And you also stated that he did the same thing against Hwoarang, and got knocked out to the point where his devil side took over.

In both stories of the two Jin states or shows he had more worrying matters till he got no other way but fight him as hwo is too sutbborn

In hwo story you see how Jin acts, hwo even gloats saying he is stronger and what not and Jin just leaves unbothered to the point even hos rival questions it why he isnt mad or something, again he basically points out he has more important stuff, the mishima drama

Not to mention Jin prologue says how he is worried he cant hold on his powers and has nightmares making his devil act up, in tekken anime you see how it goes a fight of them, without having a worry of powers going crazy or having anything better, Jin is able to win and wasnt gonna kill him like Heihachi hoped

Im saying Jin is more casual with Hwo, unlike Kazuya and Heihachi which is kill or die

I said in early comments, his rival is a high tier, fighting evenly with him on a casual level, but not at his best

Logically, Hwoarang would be above Demon Jinpachi.

I explained above

This also means that, while contradicting canon, Baek defeating Azazel is somewhat (not fully, do not confuse; Jin claimed that only someone with the Gene can fully defeat Azazel IIRC) consistent to the scalings.

Baek would be a mid tier, Ogre beat him and its clear since he attacked many fighters, plus i remember the bio mention hwo enters also to deal with Ogre if not wrong, plus Law beat him in canon, a mid tier character, he has no feats of engaging high tiers or so, also I AM OP yt channel had a video pointing out in hwo trailer that his belt or rank on the uniform is above Baek, his master only has more skill and experience, till T8 at least now

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Also the site accepts feats like storms or realm creation and such if the character physical state is tied to it, meaning Jinpachi getting ko'd from his demon form or dying ceases the storm, that gets created only upon transformation into it

Verse from KOF14 has a similar thing and none pointed its wrong to scale it to physicals, Bison in alpha 3 creates a cloud shaped as skull and is maintained by him and is accepted

As for Nina matter, i said it before, Alisa beat a Jack 6 and killed it, you see her chainsaws go pierce through and falls on the ground after, to assume its the same Jack 6 you gotta assume he somehow regens from cutting dmg which isnt existent for them

Plus Raven cut a Jack before in T5 opening, as well as Nancy which in Scenario campaign beats Anna and Jack 6 if you use him for that mission chapter, Raven slices even him in pieces, so that Jack is dead by Alisa hand, its more logical to assume another one appeared, which isnt far fetched as a Jack was still functional after Lars and his team foughts squads of them till revealed otherwise and self destructs, then later another appears which Alisa fights

And for the record meteor feat claimed to have killed him didnt even do that, the burn from re-entry does it and its clearly seen from his eyes shutting down only at that point it happens, Alisa did what a meteor couldnt and again as said in the thread as well, Alisa had more of an edge over him then other way, hits him before getting Lars and sees her coming too, engages in strength with her by grabbing, she escapes out, tries to hit her, dodges then slices him

Xiaoyu in Dark Ressurection opening that you Web have shown here has her battle a Jack 5 without much issues, Xiao and Alisa fought in the CGI movie evenly overall, let alone the anime with Nina, Jack 6 has no stuff to portray him above mid tiers since he himself is a mid tier

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Shouldnt surprise me threads on this series arent that looked up by others not familiar, as its not as popular as claimed by some

 

[The_Web_Adventurer]

What I said in the original thread was that Heihachi needed Nina's assistance in managing things for the 7th Tekken tournament so it wouldn't make sense for him to seriously injure her.

I see your point, but like, can you provide a concrete proof for this? Because the counterargument in that thread, stating that Heihachi had no reason to hold back since he was trying to seize the Zaibatsu back to his hands, is also pretty valid. But both arguments have no concrete proof to back them up in my eyes.

 

[The_Web_Adventurer]

Also the site accepts feats like storms or realm creation and such if the character physical state is tied to it, meaning Jinpachi getting ko'd from his demon form or dying ceases the storm, that gets created only upon transformation into it

Verse from KOF14 has a similar thing and none pointed its wrong to scale it to physicals, Bison in alpha 3 creates a cloud shaped as skull and is maintained by him and is accepted

As for Nina matter, i said it before, Alisa beat a Jack 6 and killed it, you see her chainsaws go pierce through and falls on the ground after, to assume its the same Jack 6 you gotta assume he somehow regens from cutting dmg which isnt existent for them

Plus Raven cut a Jack before in T5 opening, as well as Nancy which in Scenario campaign beats Anna and Jack 6 if you use him for that mission chapter, Raven slices even him in pieces, so that Jack is dead by Alisa hand, its more logical to assume another one appeared, which isnt far fetched as a Jack was still functional after Lars and his team foughts squads of them till revealed otherwise and self destructs, then later another appears which Alisa fights

And for the record meteor feat claimed to have killed him didnt even do that, the burn from re-entry does it and its clearly seen from his eyes shutting down only at that point it happens, Alisa did what a meteor couldnt and again as said in the thread as well, Alisa had more of an edge over him then other way, hits him before getting Lars and sees her coming too, engages in strength with her by grabbing, she escapes out, tries to hit her, dodges then slices him

Xiaoyu in Dark Ressurection opening that you Web have shown here has her battle a Jack 5 without much issues, Xiao and Alisa fought in the CGI movie evenly overall, let alone the anime with Nina, Jack 6 has no stuff to portray him above mid tiers since he himself is a mid tier

Regarding Verse, I was actually initially considering on bringing it up in my main post for me to use as an argument that Jinpachi's storm being considered as his AP is very much valid. Or that Jinpachi's storm being considered ED while Verse's storm being used for the other KOF characters to scale from is unfair.
Decided against it eventually, after realising that the argument provided in the thread last year refuting the ED claim was enough.


I see your point regarding Nina and Alisa and Jack's, but can I at least ask you to please provide links to further prove that Nina scales? The ones you mentioned like the scenario campaign scenes, the fight between Xiao and Alisa in BV, Raven slicing Jack 4 in T5's intro, etc. I've seen them all, but I still want you to provide the links for everyone here reading/participating in this thread for the sake of convenience. And I also wanna understand why Continuum19 didn't buy your argument in the thread.

 

[The_Web_Adventurer]

You know i said above Jinpachi is a mid tier, since Jin points out wasnt a challenge to him, much like Alisa herself said to Lars in theirs, even with Heihachi in T5 even tho non canon its the same thing, demon or not, Jinpachi is no match to him according to Heihachi

Jinpachi is a mid tier as both human and demon form, the gap between them is never pointed to be big and since Jinpachi as human in his ending was able to against Young Heihachi hold his ground and all, its a gap of unknown degree that seems not too huge

Yeah Hwoarang is above Jinpachi in these forms, i never denied it

Thats not what it means, it means he stomped him, you say somebody is no match to you, means you are above them, either way Jin > Jinpachi big time

Also remember that Jin said in T5 in his dialogue with him, that he will end this evil for good, no reason to hold back

In both stories of the two Jin states or shows he had more worrying matters till he got no other way but fight him as hwo is too sutbborn

In hwo story you see how Jin acts, hwo even gloats saying he is stronger and what not and Jin just leaves unbothered to the point even hos rival questions it why he isnt mad or something, again he basically points out he has more important stuff, the mishima drama

Not to mention Jin prologue says how he is worried he cant hold on his powers and has nightmares making his devil act up, in tekken anime you see how it goes a fight of them, without having a worry of powers going crazy or having anything better, Jin is able to win and wasnt gonna kill him like Heihachi hoped

Im saying Jin is more casual with Hwo, unlike Kazuya and Heihachi which is kill or die

I said in early comments, his rival is a high tier, fighting evenly with him on a casual level, but not at his best

I explained above

Baek would be a mid tier, Ogre beat him and its clear since he attacked many fighters, plus i remember the bio mention hwo enters also to deal with Ogre if not wrong, plus Law beat him in canon, a mid tier character, he has no feats of engaging high tiers or so, also I AM OP yt channel had a video pointing out in hwo trailer that his belt or rank on the uniform is above Baek, his master only has more skill and experience, till T8 at least now

Regarding Hwoarang, I just went and read his newest Bio for Tekken 8 rn.

His ending in Tekken 7 where he beats Devil Jin is now confirmed to be canon. This pretty much implies now that current Hwoarang is stronger than current Jin in his base form, right? But
... what are your thoughts on this? Agree or disagree?

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Regarding Verse, I was actually initially considering on bringing it up in my main post for me to use as an argument that Jinpachi's storm being considered as his AP is very much valid. Or that Jinpachi's storm being considered ED while Verse's storm being used for the other KOF characters to scale from is unfair.
Decided against it eventually, after realising that the argument provided in the thread last year refuting the ED claim was enough.

Its already accepted as scaling to physicals, users have to realize this sort of feats arent a new thing and more mainstream verses like GOW or DMC use similar stuff for their ratings cuz their physicals affect the things they create, like universal dimensions or realms sustained by their own power

I see your point regarding Nina and Alisa and Jack's, but can I at least ask you to please provide links to further prove that Nina scales? The ones you mentioned like the scenario campaign scenes, the fight between Xiao and Alisa in BV, Raven slicing Jack 4 in T5's intro, etc. I've seen them all, but I still want you to provide the links for everyone here reading/participating in this thread for the sake of convenience. And I also wanna understand why Continuum19 didn't buy your argument in the thread.

I can say why he didnt accept them, he was stubborn and biased against the verse, along proving several times not knowing the verse as he falsely claimed, only accepting whatever saman did when he on the other hand didnt knew as much either on the verse

Anything he was against came up with headcanons not even backed up besides his terrible opinion and members getting brainwashed thats what happened, to the point i lost any patience or respect to him

Anyway i spend most of the time on my phone, so i cant link stuff as easily as on a PC or laptop, without progress loss and slow search on my end, you know them as well as you said, link them here, this is your thread anyway

His ending in Tekken 7 where he beats Devil Jin is now confirmed to be canon. This pretty much implies now that current Hwoarang is stronger than current Jin in his base form, right? But
... what are your thoughts on this? Agree or disagree?

Big no to this, T5 Devil Jin nearly killed Hwoarang and its been 1 year between T5 and T8, its unfounded to say Hwoarang grew past that gap of power

Especially when Jin in T7 could barely even have the power to handle UN soldiers if not for Lars to save him, Lars stated later too, Azazel fight took a toll on him, Hwoarang won against a watered down Devil Jin, thats what

Their special intro also shows his base is still even with Hwoarang, not to mention characters like Steve, King, Paul, Bryan, Leroy, Feng are shown even with Hwoarang, by directly fighting him, scaling from other characters that those fought besides just Hwoarang or characters who fought base Jin and lost to him, makes no sense and affects the scaling chain in a non sensical way

He stays a high tier, only Mishimas or those like Akuma and Azazel scale fully to them for actually being strong in a life or death fight without nerfs from other events earlier

 

[Continuum19]

I see your point, but like, can you provide a concrete proof for this? Because the counterargument in that thread, stating that Heihachi had no reason to hold back since he was trying to seize the Zaibatsu back to his hands, is also pretty valid. But both arguments have no concrete proof to back them up in my eyes.

I can't provide any concrete proof of the claim.