angels infinite reaction/ speed infinite

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Whis dodged Gogeta's Teleport in Dragon Ball Super

In the movie Dragon Ball Super: Broly, there is a quick moment where Whis dodges Gogeta's teleport.



As you can see, Whis was avoiding Broly as he cannot interfere in the mortal world. Meanwhile, in less than a second, Whis dodges Gogeta, who suddenly appears.

The Dragon Ball Super manga revealed that Ultra Instinct is the natural state of angels and that's why it's always activated. So, Whis predicting Gogeta's arrival and automatically dodging was a natural reaction of his body.



Before trying to come up with an excuse to belittle the feat, it is said that teleportation is instantaneous.



All angels having their higher instinct passive should apply infinite reaction/ possibly maybe infinite speed

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Hard no.

Whis just moved back. Nothing suggests he instinctively noticed that Gogeta was appearing.

 

[Hasty12345]

I am curious as to if Whis dodging IT is at all referenced in the novelization?

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Hard no.

Whis just moved back. Nothing suggests he instinctively noticed that Gogeta was appearing.

I don't understand where you want to go

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I am curious as to if Whis dodging IT is at all referenced in the novelization?

I don't think it has that part, but if it does it would be great.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

It's pretty clear that Whis moved out of the way of Instant Transmission, but I have no other thoughts on it other than that.

 

[Hasty12345]

I'm not opposed to it, but I'd prefer more than one kind of ambiguous feat. I'd also prefer it if we didn't mix information from the manga and anime, albeit I think the movies are cross scalable?

 

[Damage3245]

I don't see how that is infinite reaction speed.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I don't see how that is infinite reaction speed.

why not, admin?

 

[Rez]

I am curious as to if Whis dodging IT is at all referenced in the novelization?

Here is an fan translation for that part:

With lightness that would put Goku and Vegeta's efforts to shame, Whis dodges his roaring punches and sets just enough distance between them to reach out of Broly's range. It's just then that Gogeta appears, planting himself between the two. "Oh, my!" "Leave the rest to me, Whis!" Whis gazed in a peculiar way at Gogeta who had assumed his stance immediately.

Basically nothing here indicates infinite speed neither the anime nor the novel.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This doesn't prove zero reaction time and thus infinite reaction speed.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I'm not opposed to it, but I'd prefer more than one kind of ambiguous feat. I'd also prefer it if we didn't mix information from the manga and anime, albeit I think the movies are cross scalable?

Yes, all movies are recently cast in anime and manga.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

"all"?
aren't both movies stated to follow the anime?

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

This doesn't prove zero reaction time and thus infinite reaction speed.

why not ? he reacted to the teleportation, unless you have some justification for not accepting it, I'm seeing a reaction feat, I suggest you watch the movie well and you will notice that there is a reaction feat.

 

[Hasty12345]

Here is an fan translation for that part:

With lightness that would put Goku and Vegeta's efforts to shame, Whis dodges his roaring punches and sets just enough distance between them to reach out of Broly's range. It's just then that Gogeta appears, planting himself between the two. "Oh, my!" "Leave the rest to me, Whis!" Whis gazed in a peculiar way at Gogeta who had assumed his stance immediately.

Basically nothing here indicates infinite speed neither the anime nor the novel.

Yeah, nothing at all. Thanks for the scan

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The movies do seem to follow more so towards the DBS Anime as opposed to DBS Manga. Broly looks like it could have been a canon sequal to either, but Super Hero kind of contradicts the DBS Manga continuity especially. Such as Vegeta learning some degree of Ultra Instinct instead of Ultra Ego (Which is not a thing by the looks of it in DBS Anime so far and just called "Energy of Destruction" when Toppo uses it)

Reacting to the ability to teleport in itself is not a quantifiable speed feat. And while the teleportation is instant, what's not instant is the strike of Gogeta's punches or kicks.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Here is an fan translation for that part:

With lightness that would put Goku and Vegeta's efforts to shame, Whis dodges his roaring punches and sets just enough distance between them to reach out of Broly's range. It's just then that Gogeta appears, planting himself between the two. "Oh, my!" "Leave the rest to me, Whis!" Whis gazed in a peculiar way at Gogeta who had assumed his stance immediately.

Basically nothing here indicates infinite speed neither the anime nor the novel.

The movies do seem to follow more so towards the DBS Anime as opposed to DBS Manga. Broly looks like it could have been a canon sequal to either, but Super Hero kind of contradicts the DBS Manga continuity especially. Such as Vegeta learning some degree of Ultra Instinct instead of Ultra Ego (Which is not a thing by the looks of it in DBS Anime so far and just called "Energy of Destruction" when Toppo uses it)

Reacting to the ability to teleport in itself is not a quantifiable speed feat. And while the teleportation is instant, what's not instant is the strike of Gogeta's punches or kicks.

Uh, where is it said Gogeta's punches and kicks are instantaneous? I'm referring to the fact that Whis reacted to teleportation and not Gogeta having instant punches and kicks.

 

[Quantu]

Why is this not taken as Gogeta just teleporting in front of Whis, who was moving backwards the whole time? I never saw this as a feat of any kind

 

[Vietthai96]

Uh oh......................just no, the feat is kinda ambiguous, nothing suggested Whis truly reacted to Gogeta's instant transmission, and yeah the novel already stated Gogeta just use the skill to plant himself between Whis and Broly

 

[Jinsama]

Not sure about infinte speed but Whis dodged it via a short burst

What he did there is clear as day - maybe you guys should watch it in slow motion.

 

[Vietthai96]

Not sure about infinte speed but Whis dodged it via a short burst

What he did there is clear as day - maybe you guys should watch it in slow motion.

The thing is, he just happen to dodged it along the way he moved, or he actually reacted to it and dodge??. The feat is ambiguous, and can be locked at in multiple ways

 

[Jinsama]

The thing is, he just happen to dodged it along the way he moved, or he actually reacted to it and dodge??. The feat is ambiguous, and can be locked at in multiple ways

You can see the increase of movement/explsoive move right before Gogeta teleports there

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

teleportation is moving to point a to point b in instantaneously/0 time, if whis reacted to that, thats infinite reaction speed.

the best opposition is if he actually reacted to it or just so happened to be already moving and gogeta just teleported in front of him.

neutral

 

[Duedate8898]

The image shows Whis not at all in Gogeta's path before he appears. All Whis really does is stop moving by the time that Gogeta lands on the ground, nothing here to see that I believe would give infinite speed.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Guys, why are you fighting over the wrong things? Yes, Whis did react to Gogeta's teleportation.

... It's just not an Infinite Speed feat since the Instant Transmission was NEVER an instantaneous technique. There is a distinct, tangible timeframe between the character popping out and in of reality, and this is verifiable in the Goku vs Cell teleport scene in the manga.

Reacting to IT is not a relevant feat.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

Guys, why are you fighting over the wrong things? Yes, Whis did react to Gogeta's teleportation.

... It's just not an Infinite Speed feat since the Instant Transmission was NEVER an instantaneous technique. There is a distinct, tangible timeframe between the character popping out and in of reality, and this is verifiable in the Goku vs Cell teleport scene in the manga.

Reacting to IT is not a relevant feat.

thats just how it appears to us, the viewer on screen, we know for a fact how things appears to us isn't necessarily how it actually is in the verse. Animators have to make things a certain way so it doesn't look sloppy or unwatchable or else its considered bad animation (such as fights with insanely fast characters being slowed down so viewers can actually understand and enjoy it). Coupled with 0 statements of instant transmission saying it takes time, the fact that shunkan-ido literally means instantaneous movement, coupled with it being narratively inconsistent with it actually taking seconds to complete.

and this is verifiable in the Goku vs Cell teleport scene in the manga.

The teleport scene in the manga does not imply anything. It just shows goku teleporting, cell noticing he teleported, looks down on the goku that is now right in front of him or behind him or wherever he teleported. every single time.

so yes this thread IS contingent on the fact of whether or not whis actually reacted to instant transmission, whis theres no concrete evidence of.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

thats just how it appears to us, the viewer on screen, we know for a fact how things appears to us isn't necessarily how it actually is in the verse. Animators have to make things a certain way so it doesn't look sloppy or unwatchable or else its considered bad animation (such as fights with insanely fast characters being slowed down so viewers can actually understand and enjoy it). Coupled with 0 statements of instant transmission saying it takes time, the fact that shunkan-ido literally means instantaneous movement, coupled with it being narratively inconsistent with it actually taking seconds to complete.


The teleport scene in the manga does not imply anything. It just shows goku teleporting, cell noticing he teleported, looks down on the goku that is now right in front of him or behind him or wherever he teleported. every single time.

so yes this thread IS contingent on the fact of whether or not whis actually reacted to instant transmission, whis theres no concrete evidence of.

You're wrong.

"It is not like it seems, it's like I said because confirmation bias"

Goofy ahh reasoning.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

You're wrong.

"It is not like it seems, it's like I said because confirmation bias"

Goofy ahh reasoning.

Ah, shit, scan's in the wrong order.

He teleports, the wave travels off planet, Goku reappears.

There is a TANGIBLE timeframe between disappearing and reappearing.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

You're wrong.

"It is not like it seems, it's like I said because confirmation bias"

Goofy ahh reasoning.

or maybe you are wrong? not everyone who has different takes than you do is inherently biased my guy, calm down.

Ah, shit, scan's in the wrong order.

He teleports, the wave travels off planet, Goku reappears.

There is a TANGIBLE timeframe between disappearing and reappearing.

yeah and he could've already been by cells side by the time the wave travelled out of the planet which isn't even a bold assumption. again, nothing implies it took several seconds for goku to end up there.

and even if we go by your logic, that would imply a kamehameha from cell can go from the lower parts of earths atmosphere to the exosphere if not further before IT was complete which implies cell's attacks, who both cell and goku scale to, can cover that distance faster than instant transmission can which is obviously inconsistent because then goku wouldn't use it and cell wouldn't be caught off guard by it, nor would characters like goku black or jiren who are endlessly faster than both of these characters at this time.

so yes it should go without saying a technique literally called instant teleportation is indeed instant

 

[GodlyCharmander]

or maybe you are wrong? not everyone who has different takes than you do is inherently biased my guy, calm down.

It is confirmation bias, you believe the technique is instantaneous because you always had, you have no actual evidence of the technique being instantaneous other than the name... in the English version. As in, the dematerializing and rematerializing, the movement should happen instantly.

yeah and he could've already been--

So he deliberately waited for several moments to attack just because? Yeah sure buddy, you can be delusional elsewhere, we quite literally see him rematerializing after the beam is off the atmosphere, alongside a SFX of the teleportation. He has not been there beforehand.

and even if we go by your logic--

The logic isn't mine, it's the Manga. All I did was explain the events of the pages I showed. You can dance around the evidence all you want, idgaf, we're not giving anyone Infinite Speed over reacting to this technique. You also cannot excuse the Anime for showcasing a timeframe between IT anymore.

so yes it should go without saying a technique literally called instant teleportation is indeed instant

The name of a technique is not entitled to its attributes. "Big Bang" Attack being a prime example.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Counter argument: Infinite speed Cell.

 

[sanicspood]

This is rattery, “instant” is a vague ass timeframe, why does this warrant infinite speed?

And whis dodging this shit means nothing because then you’d be inherently saying gogeta was going to teleport inside of whis like

 

[AceOfSpaces3709]

I don't think that's how infinite speed works

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Counter argument: Infinite speed Cell.

I was honestly surprised they didn't try to pull that off

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

It is confirmation bias, you believe the technique is instantaneous because you always had, you have no actual evidence of the technique being instantaneous other than the name... in the English version. As in, the dematerializing and rematerializing, the movement should happen instantly.

you do know teleportation is defined as instantaneous movement between 2 points? yeah.... and that wasn't my only evidence, i argued narrative consistency and the the fact that there are no existing contradictions

So he deliberately waited for several moments to attack just because? Yeah sure buddy, you can be delusional elsewhere, we quite literally see him rematerializing after the beam is off the atmosphere, alongside a SFX of the teleportation. He has not been there beforehand.

I'm saying while the beam was shooting off Goku would've already been at cell's side. Its not the first time in manga history that several things happen at roughly the same area of time.

The logic isn't mine, it's the Manga. All I did was explain the events of the pages I showed.

Respectfully, that is not an intelligent thing to say. Its still your logic, you are just using the manga to justify what you said. Its what every argument does, make a claim and using reasoning/evidence to support it. Even if you don't want to claim its your logic, it changes nothing. We still arrive at this contradiction that you did not address.

and even if we go by your logic (or since you are more worried about my wording rather than what i said, your interpretation), that would imply a kamehameha from cell can go from the lower parts of earths atmosphere to the exosphere if not further before IT was complete which implies cell's attacks, who both cell and goku scale to, can cover that distance faster than instant transmission can which is obviously inconsistent because then goku wouldn't use it and cell wouldn't be caught off guard by it, nor would characters like goku black or jiren who are endlessly faster than both of these characters at this time.

You can dance around the evidence all you want, idgaf, we're not giving anyone Infinite Speed over reacting to this technique.

If that's what you wanna call me presenting counterarguments, go for it.

On top of that I never even agreed that whis reacted to it hence my intial neutral stance.

You also cannot excuse the Anime for showcasing a timeframe between IT anymore.

That might've been true if you showed an actual contradiction.

The name of a technique is not entitled to its attributes. "Big Bang" Attack being a prime example.

Yeah thats fine, that doesn't mean in this instance it isn't.

Counter argument: Infinite speed Cell.

which is ridiculous for obvious reasons

 

[GodlyCharmander]

you do know teleportation is defined as instantaneous movement between 2 points? yeah.... and that wasn't my only evidence, i argued narrative consistency and the the fact that there are no existing contradictions

I'm saying while the beam was shooting off Goku would've already been at cell's side. Its not the first time in manga history that several things happen at roughly the same area of time.

Respectfully, that is not an intelligent thing to say. Its still your logic, you are just using the manga to justify what you said. Its what every argument does, make a claim and using reasoning/evidence to support it. Even if you don't want to claim its your logic, it changes nothing. We still arrive at this contradiction that you did not address.


If that's what you wanna call me presenting counterarguments, go for it.

On top of that I never even agreed that whis reacted to it hence my intial neutral stance.

That might've been true if you showed an actual contradiction.

Yeah thats fine, that doesn't mean in this instance it isn't.

which is ridiculous for obvious reasons

I love how you wrote an essay saying nothing of relevance to the debate. Btw, I did explain why "Goku was already by his side" doesn't work. It's shown the beam advancing, then Goku is shown to rematerialize. It's not even a contradiction because the materialization was never stated to be instantaneous, and it has no reason to be.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

I love how you wrote an essay saying nothing of relevance to the debate. Btw, I did explain why "Goku was already by his side" doesn't work. It's shown the beam advancing, then Goku is shown to rematerialize.

the first part was literally already addressed, so either you didn't read what i said or you are just going ad nauseum, which doesn't help anyone

It's not even a contradiction because the materialization was never stated to be instantaneous, and it has no reason to be.

that was not the reason i said it would be contradicted which further solidifies the idea that you didn't read what i said.

have a nice day

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Bro has an ego over Dragon Ball . Anyway, now that "the funny" is over, can we close this thread? I don't think this is even remotely debatable at this point given IT is not instantaneous.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

m8 im not being egotistical, contrary to that i've been respectful this entire time and attempted to have a conversation with you to clarify my views, as opposed to you who goes ad nauseum then asks for the thread to be closed when called out for it.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Well this clearly isn't going to be accepted so I'm just gonna-