An issue with Dwarf Star Level Super Mystery Dungeon Mewtwo.

[Neosonic97]

I took a look into the calculation regarding Mewtwo being Dwarf Star level in Super Mystery Dungeon, and what I've found makes me believe the calculation is invalid. The mathematics behind the calculation is sound. I'll give it that. The premise, however, is not. It assumes that Dark Matter is overcoming the Tree of Life's influence on the planet and pulling the planet itself into the sun. However, this is not the case. Only the Tree of Life was being pulled into the sun, so Dark Matter could destroy it. Think about it this way: If Dark Matter could overcome the Tree of Life's influence on the Planet, WHY would it go through all the hassle of destroying the Tree when it could just destroy the planet without arousing much suspicion until it was too late?

The reason the Planet was getting closer and closer to the sun was because the Tree of Life was continually growing weaker throughout the game because of Dark Matter's influence.

On top of this, the calculation takes the power of a healthy Tree of Life and applies it to an almost dead Tree of Life, which is clearly much weaker (hence why the Planet is slowly approaching the sun throughout the course of the game, only speeding up drastically once Dark Matter shows itself.)

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

This really shouldn't change much. In the end DM was still pulling the planet to the sun at rapid speeds. Regardless what we know is that the energy output to pull the planet was still being exerted and held back by these 3. So I disagree with the downgrade.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Plus as we know DM was constantly growing in power making it easier and easier to overpower the Tree of Life.

 

[Neosonic97]

Dragon, DM was not pulling the planet into the sun. It was the Tree of Life that it was pulling into the Sun. And it wasn't growing in power, it was killing the Tree of Life.

The presmise of the Calc itself is borked.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Okay Neo I see where you are getting at. However can you prove that the Tree of Life is what is pulling the earth and not DM. And even if it isn't how does this change his stats since they are still stopping this amount of force?

 

[Neosonic97]

My evidence comes from a statement Jirachi makes earlier in the game, stating that the Tree of Life growing weaker is what is causing the planet to approach the sun, and it happens before Dark Matter uproots the Tree. In Jirachi's own words: "To be perfectly blunt, this planet is already being pulled towards the sun. That is why it has been so hot recently."

On top of this, the Tree of Life used in the calculation is a fully healthy Tree of Life, not the almost-dead one that Dark Matter uprooted, which clearly does not have the same influence as the calc suggests, seeing as it could not hold the rotations enough to keep the planet away from the sun.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

This is due to DM influence, however. Also based on what Arceus says in the video. He makes it sound as though DM is the primary force pulling the planet. And after his defeat Xerneas states that since DM is gone in which stopped the planet from being dragged into the sun and allowed the ToL to be reborn. Based on how Xerneas worded it she specifically mentioned that DM is the reason why the planet was going towards the sun, not the tree. Plus he still increased the energy input to pull the planet. this also means the DM was powerful enough to keep the Tree's power at bay. DM should have power to match that of the Tree of Life by this point in the game.

Based on dialogue we see that there is a possibility that 2 things are happening. We should have our calc group recalc this to get another solid AP.

 

[Neosonic97]

The problem is that the Tree of Life is getting much weaker, and if your evidence is what I think it is (Is it the bit where darkness seems to engulf the planet?), then that was shown earlier as part of a cutscene BEFORE Dark Matter was revealed, let alone pulling the Tree of Life.

You can be the reason for something without directly affecting it. In Dark Matter's case, it was causing the planet to be drawn towards the sun because it was killing the Tree of Life, and was also preventing it from being reborn by staying inside the tree.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Sure whatever you say. Just get a calc group to recalc it. I'm not good with calcs anyway. I still don't agree but whatever, nothing I can do.

 

[Neosonic97]

I'm posting on OBD now, with my findings.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I'm posting it to the calc team so that we can get multiple calcs that could solidify the stats.

 

[Neosonic97]

My problem is not the mathematics itself, it's more the premise being borked invalidating the calc.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Did you get anything new?

 

[Lina_Shields]

No.

So, in the original calc, it is said that the tree of life is the reason why Earth has a rotation and it revolves around the sun. The premise of the calc here is that:

• The KE calculation that was done in regards to this calculation is only about 6.93e23 Tons of TNT, hardly enough to affect the value of the actual calc.
• The Earth was still getting pulled into the sun at relativistic speeds no less.
• Mega Mewtwo, Deoxys, and Mega Ray were trying to stop a planet getting pulled into the sun.

You have also stated that the dark matter is not pulling the planet into the sun, but the main point here is that the Earth was still getting pulled into the sun, and the three pokemon managed to hold the planet from getting sucked in.

This is where the brunt of the calc itself comes from.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Wait, if the Earth was getting pulled at relativistic speeds and they succeeded at slowing it down, shouldn't that scale?

 

[Lina_Shields]

The calc in question shows that the three pokemon didn't just slow it down, they actually stopped it from getting pulled in at that speed.

Hence, the calc.

 

[Neosonic97]

@Lina Shields

The problem is that Dark Matter was NOT pulling the planet into the sun- and they weren't stopping it. They stopped the Tree of Life's ascent. Not the ascent of the planet. There's a lack of evidence to prove that the planet's ascent was stopped at this point. Just because another cutscene like the one they even took the calculation from didn't happen doesn't mean the planet stopped.

In fact, a statement from Jirachi earlier in the game seems to suggest the opposite: "To be perfectly blunt, this planet is already being pulled closer to the sun.". This is before Dark Matter even does anything aside from weakening the tree over time. Even assuming that the Tree of Life's ascent WAS causing the planet to be pulled towards the sun at such a rate, stopping its ascent momentarily should not have halted the planet's ascent, as Jirachi states that the planet was being drawn towards the sun even before Dark Matter uprooted the tree.

On top of that MRay and Deoxys never acted on the Planet, only the Tree. We can't tell what effect Mewtwo had, but since we're assuming they all had the same target, Mewtwo also acted on the tree. Thus, we just can't take the high end of that calc into account, only the low end, which places Mewtwo at Planet Level.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The calc in question shows that the three pokemon didn't just slow it down, they actually stopped it from getting pulled in at that speed.

Hence, the calc.

I meant shouldn't they get Relativistic speeds.

 

[Neosonic97]

The calc in question shows that the three pokemon didn't just slow it down, they actually stopped it from getting pulled in at that speed.

Hence, the calc.

I meant shouldn't they get Relativistic speeds.

The speed isn't the problem. It's the attack potency and durability.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

however the high end was small star level meaning the middle ground was Dwarf Star Level.

 

[Neosonic97]

Dragon, it was not. The High End was Dwarf Star.

The low end was Planet-level.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Neo, yes it was.

From 4:06 - 4:20 the earth is pulled here

Spoiler:

object degree size = 2*atan(Object_Size/(Panel_Height/tan(70/2)))

2*atan(732/(766/tan(70/2))) = 67.5751639 degrees

Sun's diameter is 1391000000 meters so Angsize Calculator yields 1039400000 meters away from camera

2*atan(138/(766/tan(70/2))) = 14.3794344 degrees

Earth's diameter is 12756000 meters so Angsize Calculator yields 50560000 meters away from camera

1039400000 - 50560000 = 988840000 meters travelled

988840000 / 16 = 61802500 m/s or 0.20615095c

Emc^2/(1-(v^2/c^2)))-mc^2

(5.972e24*299792458^2/sqrt(1-(61802500^2/299792458^2)))-5.972e24*299792458^2 = 1.178207e40 joules or 2.816 tenatons of TNT equivalent so small star level

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Dragon, your referring to the Dark Matter part of the calc. Is that right?

Edit: Also, you made a mistake. That's actually Dwarf Star+. Small Star doesn't start until it hits 2.998 Tentatons.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

crap my mistake. Either way they matched the gravitational force that was pulling the planet and managed to stop it

 

[Neosonic97]

But they didn't. There's no evidence they did. Jirachi's earlier statement in fact goes against this.

All they did was stop the Tree of Life's Ascent, which is the low end.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

The problem here with the whole debate here and on Narutoforums dums down to whether the Dark Matter pulled the planet or not. Whether his influence also accelerate the planet's pull toward the sun. Neither side has enough evidence to support both. The game implies both situations are happening. I offer although it hurts me to do so, to place these stats at unknown until we can resolve this completely.

Also you point out that Jirachi's statement happened before DM appears. However it does not mean DM was not pulling the earth as he still existed at the time just not a powerful. And the evidence that proves he gains power is Arceus' statement that I quote " Dark Matter's ever-growing power."

Based on what the scene implies the pushing back the tree is also keeping the planet at bay or at least slowing it down tremendously.

 

[Neosonic97]

Another problem is that the Pokemon aren't directly applying force to the planet, only the Tree of Life. (Unless you're going to tell me that shooting a laser at a tree floating in upper atmosphere is going to apply force to the planet.). Dark Matter pulling the planet is a big unknown, since we don't know whether it did or not, I'm personally saying 'probably not', hence why Arceus and the Pokemon direct all their focus to the Tree of Life, and why Dark Matter focuses on it as well. Everybody involved (The birds, Jirachi, Celebi, Arceus, Mega Rayquaza, Deoxys and possibly Mewtwo) makes it a point to stop the Tree specifically.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

At the same time the tree housed DM along with DM effecting the entire planet. There are reasons to support both.

 

[Neosonic97]

If you're talking about that cutscene where darkness seems to spread over the planet, it's highly unlikely it represents Dark Matter controlling the planet, as a similar cutscene plays out when Yveltal turns everyone to stone.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I didn't say controlling just effecting. I still think attacking the tree halted the planet for just awhile seeing as Arceus,the God of Pokemon was Focused on the tree and not the planet. It leads me to believe that DM's influence over the tree gave this power since remember during the entire game DM was taking control of Xerneas a.k.a the ToL. Plus how do we explain the sudden acceleration? DM uprooting a dead tree? Xerneas could no longer stop the movement towards the sun due to DM overpowering her. Meaning the acceleration of the planet has to have another cause other than the uprooted tree.

 

[Neosonic97]

...That's a fair point actually, but we can't be certain just how much influence it had.

Also the tree wasn't dead at that point. It was almost dead.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

While the tree was almost not not fully dead I doubt Xerneas had enough power to keep the planet in check. And to be fair it is safe to assume DM has a lot of influence on the acceleration. Like Arceus said its power was constantly increasing. And remember what Celebi said. DM was able to create distortions around the tree showcasing his influence. However, it's hard to decide. The problem here lies with the fact that we don't know the strength of DM influence and whether or not attacking the tree actually stopped the planet despite it seeming like it did due to the cutscene it was in.

 

[Neosonic97]

A fair point.

It's a big question mark. It's safer and less likely to cause trouble if we just use the low-end (Planet Level) which does have a solid basis.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I say we should go for a middle ground i.e Large Planet Level at least. That way those who are used to Dwarf Star Mewtwo, Ray and Deoxys are happy. Or we could just leave the files as is since y'know these stats have been here for awhile without any problem so I doubt there will be any real problem anytime soon. And most people seem to think that DM pulled accelerated the planet and the 3 legends did indeed stop it. The Dwarf Star end should be still okay. Dwarf Star+ was the actual high-end if we think about. So I vote for either the current ranking staying the same or we use Large Planet Level+ as a Middle Ground.

 

[FictionalBlade101]

I vote we keep it as it is. It has been the same for a while like Dragon said so i believe we should just leave it as it is and not waste time with it anymore

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

I think we should discard the feat entirely, as the scenario is seemingly unclear and the things the calc depends on are largely unknowns making it inapplicable.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

^while I disagree since the feat has been up for awhile. I can't stop you. And sadly it may be for the best.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Due to the uncertainties involved, it is best to wait for more input before any action is made.