Alien X Multiverse Level

[Corporal_Atlas]

Just for the record, Atomic-X is already shown to be weaker than Alien X in the fight against Maltruant. Malturant's attacks can at the very least get a reaction out of Atomic-X, sending him flying and inflicting pain. Alien X takes a device at least strong enough to destroy the universe point blank without budging. Biomnitrix fusions are understood as a 50/50 DNA mixture of species, like a more stable version of Ben's hybrid aliens in the OS. You can't apply some sort of universal constant with regards to how strong a fusion alien will be when you're mixing DNA. Presumably Atomic-X is somewhere above Atomix and below Alien X in power along with some of Alien X's reality bending and the proficiency with nuclear power. Going back to Maltruant again, Atomic-X displayed none of the reality warping he could have to stop Maltruant then and there if he possessed reality manipulation to a similar degree as or even greater than a Celestialsapien.

The reason Ben 10K would use Atomic-X instead of Alien X, besides the fact that alien fusions were his entire gimmick, is that Alien X is ultimately an unreliable transformation which could trap him for all eternity. In Omniverse Ben can have them loan him control, but this is never confirmed to be a permanent deal. And if we aren't taking creator statements from showrunners at the time into account I'm not sure we can say that it's even possible for his Biomnitrix to be used separately to turn him into Alien X anyways.

 

[Dopyt]

• In the Ben 10 Omniverse season 8 episode 9 "End of an Era" At 15:39: Ben easily gets knocked out of his Atomic X form by Maltruent,.Notice how at 15:15 how little effect his punch had against Maltruent, also keep in mind how Atomic X is unable to defeat Maltruent despite it being 3 vs 1.
  

• At 18:10 in Ben 10 Omniverse a New Dawn, Maltruent gets destroyed easily, by the Anihilaarg. Alien X tanks the Anihilaarg with NO damage at all in the same episode.
  

 

[Dopyt]

alien x is clearly above atomic x

 

[Dopyt]

i will make a revisions thread for revisons/upgrdes soon

 

[Dopyt]

the "universal feat" isn't even universal it's low multiversal

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

• In the Ben 10 Omniverse season 8 episode 9 "End of an Era" At 15:39: Ben easily gets knocked out of his Atomic X form by Maltruent,.Notice how at 15:15 how little effect his punch had against Maltruent, also keep in mind how Atomic X is unable to defeat Maltruent despite it being 3 vs 1.
  

• At 18:10 in Ben 10 Omniverse a New Dawn, Maltruent gets destroyed easily, by the Anihilaarg. Alien X tanks the Anihilaarg with NO damage at all in the same episode.
  

This, if anything, is just suggesting 2 possibilities:

That Atomic X being easily beaten is nothing but pure PIS. Either that, or Alien X even being above the Annilaarg is an outlier. Especially since, by your logic, Alien X can have his power be forcefully decreased by 3 degrees of infinity to become a form just for a few extra abilities...

 

[Dopyt]

because there are 100 dimesions in the universe not counting the infinite sized ones

 

[Dopyt]

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3ilnvx 15:45

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

because there are 100 dimesions in the universe not counting the infinite sized ones

"Enslaving a 100 dimensions" =/= being within a single universal space-time.

Which, even if it did, still wouldnt be beyond Low 2-C if those dimensions arent universal in size or their own space-times.

 

[Corporal_Atlas]

I definitely agree about not just taking anything a show producer says without hesitation, and for Ben 10 in particular I take the answer Matt Wayne gave about not committing any answer from a producer not addressed in the show to heart, as it could always be contradicted without consequence. Atomic-X comments, however, are affirming what was already presented in canon and it's a logical extension of previous fusions. Atomic-X took damage from something weaker than the Annihilarg, and is remarked by (I think) DJW to be weaker than Alien X. Fusion aliens are generally worse at the specific bread and butter of an alien but you'll get a mixture of qualities out of them, resulting in some horrible aliens and some that are perfectly functional; the Biomnitrix is intentional so the fusions are probably optimized better than the random ones in OS, but this is an assumption and the principle of fusion being a tradeoff still remained. For Atomic-X to be stronger than Alien X we are looking at PIS in multiple instances for Atomic-X, against the CTB and against Maltruant in action AND innate durability. Atomic-X would be functioning in contradiction to other fusions, and the producer comment would be outright wrong. Now, MOA has been outright wrong when answering something about content they didn't work on and DJW has said very suspect things in other cases, but DJW was working on the show at the time, commenting on a character and plotline he was a part of, and evidence in the show supports him. He essentially spoilered the show at other times through clarifications and elaborations. If we are accepting that Atomic-X is weaker then the comment and show are without issue and the fusion standard remains unbroken. It's in perfect allignment and adding a bunch of exceptions to place Atomic-X over Alien X makes no sense to me.

Alien X is not having his power forcefully decreased by anything, because Atomic-X is not Alien X. If you have not watched the series, Atomic-X is not the two transformations being meshed together, it is an instant transformation using a combination of DNA strands that becomes something entirely new. Bellicus and Serena exist when Ben is not Alien X, so if he is not in the form of Alien X he is not communing with them. Please read the second paragraph of my first post on why he would even go Atomic-X, because it seems like a lot of people that haven't followed the show, especially for the UAF run, go on to question why Ben doesn't just spam Alien X.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

IIRC the reason the art style changed (outside of obvious reasons) is because the Celestialsapiens were the one who changed them while recreating the universe. This also happened to span across the parallel dimensions because all the different incarnations of Ben share the same art style and even Gwen 10's art style changed. Unless there's an infinite amount of Celestialsapiens then I don't see how that's at least 2-C.

 

[Firestorm808]

Regarding Celestialsapians affecting the Omniverse, it is similar to the Pre-Crisis Future Green Lantern Corp feat of affecting all possible timelines. It is considered at least a 2-C feat for each individual Green Lantern.

Edit:

In the show, Celestialspaiens are responsible for changing appearances and voices in all timelines of the Ben 10 Omniverse.

The feat of affecting all timelines as a group is supported by a later statement by Man of Action. They stated that Celestialsapiens can survive Omniversal destruction as a group. https://manofaction.tv/blog/sunday-funday-for-the-fans/#.XRfTH-gza1s

This is similar to the Pre-Crisis Future Green Lantern Corp feat of destroying all possible futures. It is considered at least a 2-C feat for each individual Green Lantern.

I believe the same can be applied for individual Celestialsapiens as 2-C.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Regarding Celestialsapians affecting the Omniverse, it is similar to the Pre-Crisis Future Green Lantern Corp feat of affecting all possible timelines. It is considered at least a 2-C feat for each individual Green Lantern.

I think that's appropriate.

 

[Firestorm808]

On a side note, heres a better MFTL+ feat for Alien X.

Alien X Casually Creates and Separates Galaxies | So Long, and Thanks for All the Smoothies

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Bump.

 

[Firestorm808]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

From what I remember, this is not what happened in the show.

The Annihilaarg destroyed the main Ben 10 universe, after which Alien X casually restored it.

Later, Ben Tennyson was put on trial by other members of the Celestialsapiens species, and a throwaway gag mentioned that restoring the universe also changed the art style of the show.

The feat only involved a single universe, so "At least Low 2-C" is the best that we can rate Alien X as.

 

[Firestorm808]

Alien X recreating the universe didn't change the art style of the show.

 

[Antvasima]

Really? I thought that recreating the universe was what Ben was put on trial for, and that the art style change was mentioned in conjunction.

 

[Firestorm808]

Ben was on trial for unauthorized alteration of reality.

 

[Antvasima]

Can you link to some information please? This is not the way that I recall the episode.

 

[Firestorm808]

On it.

 

[Firestorm808]

https://youtu.be/3T-eYade6Lo

 

[Dopyt]

because there are 100 dimesions in the universe not counting the infinite sized ones

"Enslaving a 100 dimensions" =/= being within a single universal space-time.
Which, even if it did, still wouldnt be beyond Low 2-C if those dimensions arent universal in size or their own space-times.

First of all there universal in sized as their dimension is literally referred to as "our universe"

 

[Dopyt]

• In the Ben 10 Omniverse season 8 episode 9 "End of an Era" At 15:39: Ben easily gets knocked out of his Atomic X form by Maltruent,.Notice how at 15:15 how little effect his punch had against Maltruent, also keep in mind how Atomic X is unable to defeat Maltruent despite it being 3 vs 1.
  

• At 18:10 in Ben 10 Omniverse a New Dawn, Maltruent gets destroyed easily, by the Anihilaarg. Alien X tanks the Anihilaarg with NO damage at all in the same episode.
  

This, if anything, is just suggesting 2 possibilities:
That Atomic X being easily beaten is nothing but pure PIS. Either that, or Alien X even being above the Annilaarg is an outlier. Especially since, by your logic, Alien X can have his power be forcefully decreased by 3 degrees of infinity to become a form just for a few extra abilities...

First of all it's not pis because atomic X isn't a fusion it's more of a hybrid for atomix also atomic X is bound by linear time while it's shown many times alien X isn't. X even scales above the timebo!b that wiped out atomic X and again it's more of a upgrade for atomix than a equaliser for both

 

[Dopyt]

• One of the creatorsconfirms Alien X can have any power imaginable, ( which for obvious reasons only includes powers from the Ben 10 series)

In Ben 10 Ultimate Alien episode "Forge of Creation":

• 00:30 Azmuth says that the Celestialsapien "have the greatest power in the universe", meaning it should be greater than ALL weapons.
• At 2:20 Azmuth says Alien X can do anything
• 4:57 , Professor Paradox states Celestialsapiens are the source of the universe's greatest power.
• At 5:15, he calls a baby Celestialsapien omnipotent, meaning all Celestialsapien scale to all of Paradox stats and abilities and weapons

• One of the creators states he is Omnipotent. Him being called Omnipotent ofc doesn't mean he is actually omnipotent, but it does mean he is>>> everything else in the universe, since Omnipotent means "most powerful".
• in Ben 10 Omniverse episode "Universe vs Tennyson at 14:00, Chadzmuth who's an galvan like Azmuth( the smartest race in the universe) calls The Celestialsapien raceomnipotent.

 

[Firestorm808]

Can we save the Time bomb discussion for later?

 

[Dopyt]

• 15:50 Clockwork created all timelinesafter they were erased from existence in the Ben Omniverse episode "And then there was Ben" making him 2a
• In Ben 10 Alien Force "X= Ben+2" at 19:09, Serena states Alien X is the most powerful being in the universe, so Celestialsapiens scale to Clockwork's 2a power.
• Alien X is stated to be the most powerful aliein the Omnitrix in an official guidebook, so he should scale to Clockwork.
• In Ben 10 Ultimate Alie episode "Map Of infinity", at 8:56 Azmuth mentions the Forge Of Creation is the source of the greatest power in the universe. It's a nebula, where only Celestialsapiens exist, nothing else, meaning Celestialsapiens have the greatest power in the universe.

• 20:40 in the episode from Ben 10 Alien Force: "The Vengeance of Vilgax Salman part 1" , Azmuth says the Omnitrix is the most powerful weapon in the universe. Meaning the Alien X=omnitrix> Time bomb and the Chrono-Navigator.

• Azmuth knows of the power behind the Chrono Navigator and is called the smartest being in the universe by Paradox at 00:58 in Ben 10 Alien Force:"War of the Worlds part 1".

• Keep in mind Paradox has full understanding of the space-time continuum stated in theBen 10 Alien Force episode "Paradox" in 13:35, and keep in mind he can't lie.

• 7:12 in the Ben 10 Omniverse episode " A New Dawn" The timebomb is shown to have existed since the 18th century in the main universe, meaning Alien Xdefinitely recreated the timebomb, since it recreated everything and every event in all of existence and the rest of existence in history up until the present years in the 21st century. Everything/event in the series that happened before the 21st century was created by Alien X.
• Regardless if the Chronosapien Timebomb is from the main universe or not, Alien Xrecreated the Chrono Navigator, which is shown in literally every episode Paradox appears in, to be in the main universe, so X scales to the Chrono Navigator, which is > The timebomb.

 

[Antvasima]

https://youtu.be/3T-eYade6Lo

Thank you. It seens like I misremember. However, the lawyer in question was speculating, making a metafictional in-joke about the show, and also only mentioned the universe changing, not the multiverse,

 

[Firestorm808]

The only thing the lawyer speculated was that the Celestialsapiens are currently changing the Universe, not any time before. He stated as a fact that Celestialsapiens do change the universe a lot and brought up an example. It's an in-series explanation for the style change.

I'm pretty sure the lawyer only mentions the universe because that is what is relevant to the current judicial case, Alien X altering the universe. The rest are the Universe's alternate timelines. This change in art style is consistant throughout said alternate timelines such as the Azmuth in the timeline dubbed Dimension 23.

 

[Dopyt]

Can we do something with this clip VID_20190714_091248.3gp

 

[Firestorm808]

What clip?

 

[Firestorm808]

Also, we don't use omnipotent statements loosely due to cosmic heiarchys and dimensional tiering not being applied to certain media..

 

[Dopyt]

It didn't load rip

 

[Firestorm808]

Just post the link.

 

[Dopyt]

You do understand I'm just saying it's been stated X is most powerful in Ben 10?

 

[Firestorm808]

In regards to Clockwork, Chronosapiens are able to reverse the effects of a Chronosapien Time Bomb through their Time Manipulation, not AP.

 

[Dopyt]

Time was deleted so how would they do that?

 

[Dopyt]

content://com.google.android.apps.photos.contentprovider/0/2/content%3A%2F%2Fmedia%2Fexternal%2Fvideo%2Fmedia%2F72/REQUIRE_ORIGINAL/NONE/1931164666

 

[Dopyt]

It won't let me post it