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Akaza VS Sanemi GRACE

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Nehz_XZX said:
I'm not even arguing against your vote or even about who is winning. What I'm saying is that the thing that is special here isn't the blade but Yoriichi himself. Sanemi has the same red blade ability as Yoriichi but it is far less potent and much less effective as a result. Do you understand what I'm saying here?
Click to expand...
My point is that sword from Yorrichi can negate the absolute regeneration from demons, while new generation users could only highest potentional to slow it down.
Now it can be two different perspective sides:
— Either the sword is different (which I am sure about it) or
— the potency needed to get that

Either way, I don't think we should even argue about this point anymore. It is fact, that both swords are different.
And it is also fact that head from Akaza is really tough towards other higher upper moons.
 
Dread said:
— Either the sword is different (which I am sure about it) or
— the potency needed to get that
Click to expand...
I disagree with your perspective. Before Tanjiro and the Pillars achieved turning their blades red no one else had that ability, so there is no way that the Demon Slayer Corps would have had blades ready to strengthen Yoriichi's Regeneration Nullification. Kokushibo and Muzan themselves also specifically focus on the red blades and Yoriichi's blade while it is black is never given a special mention other than to confirm that Yoriichi changes the color of his blade for combat which is the source of the Regeneration Negation not the blade itself.
 
Nehz_XZX said:
I disagree with your perspective. Before Tanjiro and the Pillars achieved turning their blades red no one else had that ability, so there is no way that the Demon Slayer Corps would have had blades ready to strengthen Yoriichi's Regeneration Nullification. Kokushibo and Muzan themselves also specifically focus on the red blades and Yoriichi's blade while it is black is never given a special mention other than to confirm that Yoriichi changes the color of his blade for combat which is the source of the Regeneration Negation not the blade itself.
Click to expand...
I will state it again. Yoriichi could completely negate Muzan's near-absolute regeneration for a short period of time while the modern era Demon Slayers can only slightly slow it down, despite the fact that Muzan was in a much weaker condition because of the Anti-Kibutsuji Drug.

Unless you give a proof that potency was difference, then I will agree with second prespective side. Otherwise, it is a matter how we see it
 
Dread said:
I will state it again. Yoriichi could completely negate Muzan's near-absolute regeneration for a short period of time while the modern era Demon Slayers can only slightly slow it down, despite the fact that Muzan was in a much weaker condition because of the Anti-Kibutsuji Drug.

Unless you give a proof that potency was difference, then I will agree with second prespective side. Otherwise, it is a matter how we see it
Click to expand...
I do not disagree with the difference of the effect that the red blades had. My point is that the effects are the same with the difference being the effectiveness which means that there isn't any point in assuming that Yoriichi's blade has an inherent Regeneration Nullification ability since Yoriichi already covers that with his abilities. The fact that Tanjiro's Breath of the Sun already has Regeneration Negation without needing to turn his blade red provides an additional reason as to why Yoriichi has higher potency. I also don't think that I need to explain why Yoriichi's red blade ability would be superior to everyone else's since he he generally scales above everyone else. Your interpretation of the blade being somehow special is therefore completely unneeded since everything can already be explained with the Breath of the Sun and Yoriichi himself.
 
Nehz_XZX said:
I do not disagree with the difference of the effect that the red blades had. My point is that the effects are the same with the difference being the effectiveness which means that there isn't any point in assuming that Yoriichi's blade has an inherent Regeneration Nullification ability since Yoriichi already covers that with his abilities. The fact that Tanjiro's Breath of the Sun already has Regeneration Negation without needing to turn his blade red provides an additional reason as to why Yoriichi has higher potency. I also don't think that I need to explain why Yoriichi's red blade ability would be superior to everyone else's since he he generally scales above everyone else. Your interpretation of the blade being somehow special is therefore completely unneeded since everything can already be explained with the Breath of the Sun and Yoriichi himself.
Click to expand...
I asked for proofs. If you provided them, then I agree with you
 
Dread said:
I asked for proofs. If you provided them, then I agree with you
Click to expand...
You want a proof for an unnecessary assumption that isn't needed to explain anything in the story? What Muzan feared was Yoriichi himself not his blade and if all that Kokushibo needed to match Yoriichi was a certain kind of blade, then he would have made sure to get a blade like that and it would have been mentioned. Do you even have any proof of Yoriichi's blade being somehow different? That feels like the sort of interpretation which only exists because someone thought that it sounds cool. Neither VS Battles Wiki nor the Kimetsu no Yaiba Wiki describe Yoriichi's blade as having any additional special properties that standard Nichirin blades don't have though it was presumably a very well made blade. I've never heard of the idea that Yoriichi's blade is somehow different until you mentioned it. Is there anyone other than you who also thinks that?
 
Nehz_XZX said:
You want a proof for an unnecessary assumption that isn't needed to explain anything in the story? What Muzan feared was Yoriichi himself not his blade and if all that Kokushibo needed to match Yoriichi was a certain kind of blade, then he would have made sure to get a blade like that and it would have been mentioned. Do you even have any proof of Yoriichi's blade being somehow different? That feels like the sort of interpretation which only exists because someone thought that it sounds cool. Neither VS Battles Wiki nor the Kimetsu no Yaiba Wiki describe Yoriichi's blade as having any additional special properties that standard Nichirin blades don't have though it was presumably a very well made blade. I've never heard of the idea that Yoriichi's blade is somehow different until you mentioned it. Is there anyone other than you who also thinks that?
Click to expand...
Mate, it is matter how we look into it, even if it is unnecessary, as long as there is no proof, it is literally how our perspective matters in this subject. Only because you disagree, does not mean you have facts for it. It is your opinion, unless you provide the proofs.

It is also my opinion, but also I know for the fact that the blade is different since we saw it in a fight against Muzan. If it is potency or sword, this matters how you look into it. For me, it is sword difference, I also think like that because he is founder of this sword. For you, it is potency, you can't force me to think like you unless you have proofs for it. Drop the topic if you don't want to provide the proofs, also all of this does not matter, since Sanemi does not have this sword or potency for it. So akaza stomps in this matchup
 
Dread said:
Mate, it is matter how we look into it, even if it is unnecessary, as long as there is no proof, it is literally how our perspective matters in this subject. Only because you disagree, does not mean you have facts for it. It is your opinion, unless you provide the proofs.

It is also my opinion, but also I know for the fact that the blade is different since we saw it in a fight against Muzan. If it is potency or sword, this matters how you look into it. For me, it is sword difference, I also think like that because he is founder of this sword. For you, it is potency, you can't force me to think like you unless you have proofs for it. Drop the topic if you don't want to provide the proofs, also all of this does not matter, since Sanemi does not have this sword or potency for it. So akaza stomps in this matchup
Click to expand...
What do you mean with founder? If Yoriichi made the sword, then he would be the smith but I don't think that it was stated or shown that he was good at sword smithing and there is a whole village for smithing swords already, so I don't think that Yoriichi would need to do that and I don't think that this fits his personality either since he didn't really have an interest in swords on a personal level. Yoriichi is the founder of Total Concentration Breathing and the Breath of the Sun though. One thing that I'm curious about regardless of the result of our discussion is what you think the sword is actually doing that Yoriichi isn't already capable of. Do you think it has inherent Regeneration Negation properties or does it enhance Yoriichi's ability to negate Regeneration?
 
Nehz_XZX said:
One thing that I'm curious about regardless of the result of our discussion is what you think the sword is actually doing that Yoriichi isn't already capable of. Do you think it has inherent Regeneration Negation properties or does it enhance Yoriichi's ability to negate Regeneration?
Click to expand...
inherent Regeneration Negation properties
 
Dread said:
inherent Regeneration Negation properties
Click to expand...
Why exactly would it have that and doesn't Yoriichi already have that on his own? Gyomei's weapon doesn't do that and Kokushibo stated that iron that absorbed sunlight to the extent Gyomei's weapon did wasn't discovered during the Sengoku era in chapter 169, so how would that effect even be achieved?
 
Nehz_XZX said:
Why exactly would it have that and doesn't Yoriichi already have that on his own? Gyomei's weapon doesn't do that and Kokushibo stated that iron that absorbed sunlight to the extent Gyomei's weapon did wasn't discovered during the Sengoku era in chapter 169, so how would that effect even be achieved?
Click to expand...
No? And even if it is, what is the name of that ability? In the battle against Koko, he used his sword to instantly negate his generation. And in battle against Muzan, he literally killed 1500 pieces out of 1800 pieces, leaving him ptsd for over centuries? That was all done by his sword.
 
Dread said:
No? And even if it is, what is the name of that ability? In the battle against Koko, he used his sword to instantly negate his generation. And in battle against Muzan, he literally killed 1500 pieces out of 1800 pieces, leaving him ptsd for over centuries? That was all done by his sword.
Click to expand...
This was done by Yoriichi himself. Not his sword.
 
Dread said:
No? And even if it is, what is the name of that ability? In the battle against Koko, he used his sword to instantly negate his generation. And in battle against Muzan, he literally killed 1500 pieces out of 1800 pieces, leaving him ptsd for over centuries? That was all done by his sword.
Click to expand...
It's just the Crimson Red Nichirin Blade ability but a lot more potent. That's why Muichiro's red blade reminded Kokushibo of Yoriichi and why he had to think of Yoriichi's words when Gyomei and Sanemi turned their weapons red. If that's all what you can answer, then I don't think that you really have an explanation for how that is supposed to work and how it is even possible. Yoriichi isn't a swordsmith and there is no material we know of that can be used to make swords with Regeneration Negation, so your interpretation is reliant on a whole lot of assumptions that just don't work.

Dread said:
Which battle? Koko or Muzan?
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure that it would be both.
 
Nehz_XZX said:
I'm pretty sure that it would be both.
Click to expand...
Muzan fight: By seeing the Transparent World, Yoriichi was able to discern that Muzan had a total of seven hearts and five brains. Despite the Demon Lord's own immense power, Yoriichi manages to complete his sword forms and combine them into a single attack, overpowering Muzan completely.
Chapter 187

--> It was done with his sword and 13th breathing form

Kokushibo fight: Despite gripping his blade in anticipation, Yoriichi had already struck and sliced across his neck. Kokushibo became angry seeing his brother's strength had not weakened in the slightest and waited for a return strike, despite knowing it would certainly kill him.
Chapter 174

--> It was done with his sword

Nehz_XZX said:
It's just the Crimson Red Nichirin Blade ability but a lot more potent. That's why Muichiro's red blade reminded Kokushibo of Yoriichi and why he had to think of Yoriichi's words when Gyomei and Sanemi turned their weapons red. If that's all what you can answer, then I don't think that you really have an explanation for how that is supposed to work and how it is even possible. Yoriichi isn't a swordsmith and there is no material we know of that can be used to make swords with Regeneration Negation, so your interpretation is reliant on a whole lot of assumptions that just don't work.
Click to expand...
No, it is not ability? Why new generation users does not have this ability? They could not achieve it? The highest they could do, is to slow down demon's regeneration. Yorrichi is the only one who instantly negate demon's generation.
If potency is the only condition to have a “regeneration negation”, then it would be stated anywhere in manga.
Also, my bad. Yorrichi did not create the sword.
 
Dread said:
Muzan fight: By seeing the Transparent World, Yoriichi was able to discern that Muzan had a total of seven hearts and five brains. Despite the Demon Lord's own immense power, Yoriichi manages to complete his sword forms and combine them into a single attack, overpowering Muzan completely.
Chapter 187

--> It was done with his sword and 13th breathing form

Kokushibo fight: Despite gripping his blade in anticipation, Yoriichi had already struck and sliced across his neck. Kokushibo became angry seeing his brother's strength had not weakened in the slightest and waited for a return strike, despite knowing it would certainly kill him.
Chapter 174

--> It was done with his sword


No, it is not ability? Why new generation users does not have this ability? They could not achieve it? The highest they could do, is to slow down demon's regeneration. Yorrichi is the only one who instantly negate demon's generation.
If potency is the only condition to have a “regeneration negation”, then it would be stated anywhere in manga.
Also, my bad. Yorrichi did not create the sword.
Click to expand...
Yeah, it was done with a sword because Yoriichi is a swordsman. Yoriichi completing his sword forms and combining them into his 13th Form to overpower Muzan was done by Yoriichi with his sword with the work being done by Yoriichi and not the sword. Kokushibo focused in his fight against Yoriichi only on Yoriichi and his capabilities with Yoriichi's sword never being directly mentioned by Kokushibo which makes sense since Kokushibo was jealous of Yoriichi's immense talent and not of any sword Yoriichi received after joining the Demon Slayer Corps. There is no reason to believe that Yoriichi wouldn't have been able to do that with any other Nichirin sword of an appropriate quality.

Why would it need to be stated that it was Yoriichi's ability and not the swords if the sword is never mentioned to have that sort of ability and we have no explanation for how the sword would have properties like that at all? If the sword was like that, then Muzan would fear the sword and make sure that it gets destroyed but the only thing he ever focuses on when he is thinking of his encounter with Yoriichi is Yoriichi because Yoriichi is the one with the ability that allows him to kill Muzan and not the sword which is why waiting until Yoriichi died was a viable option for Muzan. The reason the generation during the events of the manga wasn't able to achieve it is because they are just that much below Yoriichi's level. There is a reason why Yoriichi is at the very top of the verse's scaling chain with even Muzan and Post-Sun Breathing Mastery Tanjiro scaling below Yoriichi to the point he stomps them. Who would have created that sword anyways, how would they have done that and why is none of that ever mentioned?
 
Nehz_XZX said:
Yeah, it was done with a sword because Yoriichi is a swordsman. Yoriichi completing his sword forms and combining them into his 13th Form to overpower Muzan was done by Yoriichi with his sword with the work being done by Yoriichi and not the sword. Kokushibo focused in his fight against Yoriichi only on Yoriichi and his capabilities with Yoriichi's sword never being directly mentioned by Kokushibo which makes sense since Kokushibo was jealous of Yoriichi's immense talent and not of any sword Yoriichi received after joining the Demon Slayer Corps. There is no reason to believe that Yoriichi wouldn't have been able to do that with any other Nichirin sword of an appropriate quality.

Why would it need to be stated that it was Yoriichi's ability and not the swords if the sword is never mentioned to have that sort of ability and we have no explanation for how the sword qould have properties like that at all? If the sword was like that, then Muzan would fear the sword and make sure that it gets destroyed but the only thing he ever focuses on her when he is thinking of his encounter with Yoriichi is Yoriichi because Yoriichi is the one with the ability that allows him to kill Muzan and not the sword which is why waiting until Yoriichi died was a viable option for Muzan. The reason the generation during the events of the manga wasn't able to achieve it is because they are just that much below Yoriichi's level. There is a reason why Yoriichi is at the very top of the verse's scaling chain with even Muzan and Post-Sun Breathing Mastery Tanjiro scaling below Yoriichi to the point he stomps them. Who would have created that sword anyways, how would they have done that and why is none of that ever mentioned?
Click to expand...
Alright I agree with your prespective side. Yet, I disagree that the potency is needed to get that ability, maybe it is his sword that was able to do that? Where is the proof that the potency is needed to get that ability? To prove that, you need a character that was able to do it. Yet none exists to able to do it. That's why we are discussing over something that never mentioned. Let's move on. Also, I am unsure why we started to talk about this while we both agree that Sanemi will never reach this potency or ability.
 
Dread said:
Alright I agree with your prespective side. Yet, I disagree that the potency is needed to get that ability, maybe it is his sword that was able to do that? Where is the proof that the potency is needed to get that ability? To prove that, you need a character that was able to do it. Yet none exists to able to do it. That's why we are discussing over something that never mentioned. Let's move on. Also, I am unsure why we started to talk about this while we both agree that Sanemi will never reach this potency or ability.
Click to expand...
There is no maybe for the sword since there is no plausible way for the sword to have inherent Regeneration Negation that can be constructed using canon information with there being no statement of the sword having that ability either. As for the proof that potency can do that, would Yoriichi himself count since you are hardly going to dispute that his abilities are more potent? A more potent version of slowing Regeneration down being able to stop Regeneration isn't that implausible and with Yoriichi having done that we have a character who was able to do it. We got into this discussion because you have apparently some weird fixation on Yoriichi's sword which was never treated as particularly special or important by the story.
 
Nehz_XZX said:
There is no maybe for the sword since there is no plausible way for the sword to have inherent Regeneration Negation that can be constructed using canon information with there being no statement of the sword having that ability either. As for the proof that potency can do that, would Yoriichi himself count since you are hardly going to dispute that his abilities are more potent? A more potent version of slowing Regeneration down being able to stop Regeneration isn't that implausible and with Yoriichi having done that we have a character who was able to do it. We got into this discussion because you have apparently some weird fixation on Yoriichi's sword which was never treated as particularly special or important by the story.
Click to expand...
No, it won't count. I will tell the reasons why:

There was an upgrade on a character from black clover for a potential 1C. And OP used proof from someone who could technically sense "infinity". Many staff asked for other evidence if he could feel that in other situations (it was only one time and yet it could not be accepted).

This is why I am asking if other characters could reach that ability by potency, if there is none (which there is none), then it can be the sword as well.
 
Dread said:
No, it won't count. I will tell the reasons why:

There was an upgrade on a character from black clover for a potential 1C. And OP used proof from someone who could technically sense "infinity". Many staff asked for other evidence if he could feel that in other situations (it was only one time and yet it could not be accepted).

This is why I am asking if other characters could reach that ability by potency, if there is none (which there is none), then it can be the sword as well.
Click to expand...
Well, Yoriichi did it against Muzan and could have done that against Kokushibo, so that makes two times. Based on Muzan doing his best to avoid encounters with Yoriichi until Yoriichi died Yoriichi would have been able to do it in a second fight against Muzan as well. Muzan's statement also makes it clear that Tanjiro and the Pillars aren't comparable to Yoriichi and that the abilities that they have unlocked through their Demon Slayer Marks are inferior versions of what Yoriichi has which is backed up by basically anything else we know about Yoriichi, so we can safely say that Yoriichi having a red blade ability that is that potent is consistent for him. The sword by comparison has no statements or feats that can clearly be attributed to it and we also have not a single other sword in the series which has any special abilities beyond what every Nichirin sword is capable of with even Gyomei's weapon not having any special abilities with the closest thing being that it has more sunlight absorbed than any other Nichirin sword including Yoriichi's.
 
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Nehz_XZX said:
Well, Yoriichi did it against Muzan and could have done that against Kokushibo, so that makes two times. Based on Muzan doing his best to avoid encounters with Yoriichi until Yoriichi died Yoriichi would have been able to do it in a second fight against Muzan as well. Muzan's statement also makes it clear that Tanjiro and the Pillars aren't comparable to Yoriichi and that the abilities that they have unlocked through their Demon Slayer Marks are inferior versions of what Yoriichi has which is backed up by basically anything else we know about Yoriichi, so we can safely say that Yoriichi having a red blade ability that is that potent is consistent for him. The sword by comparison has no statements or feats that can clearly be attributed to it and we also have not a single other sword in the series which has any special abilities beyond what every Nichirin sword is capable of with even Gyomei's weapon not having any special abilities with the closest thing being that it has more sunlight absorbed than any other Nichirin sword including Yoriichi's.
Click to expand...
Alright. You beat me with this. Damn. (y) (I am totally serious, you proved me wrong and I forget totally the fact he did it twice, which kinda proves the potency difference between other pillars.)
 
Akaza fra.
0152-019.png

Not seeing how Sanemi's surviving this.
 
Dread said:
@Nehz_XZX can you vote?
Click to expand...
I guess I can do that. Sanemi has a good amount of strength and speed that will help him against Akaza and with the Crimson Red Nichirin Blade he could potentially kill Akaza with a lot of effort. Kokushibo managed to regrow his head despite Gyomei's red blade ability though he died after seeing his reflection and getting two more hits from Sanemi and Gyomei and Akaza would be inferior to Doma who in turn is inferior to Kokushibo, so I think Sanemi's chances aren't zero but he will still have a hard time and he also has some serious disadvantages. Akaza's compass ability is something he cannot circumvent and Chaotic Blue Metal Afterglow dealt significant damage to a marked Giyu who has Dead Calm. I'd vote for Akaza here.
 
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