[ACCEPTED] Lookism: Speed Upgrade

[WindyAttack]

Literally written immeasurable in webtoons

Webtoon thinks Samuel is Simon and James Lee is James choi

 

[WindyAttack]

"Pee at you"

You heard me big boi

 

[Aksh_sky]

You heard me big boi

Chill bro, it's vsbw.

 

[Scarlet_orchard]

This is a lowball considering that MK in base let Johan use his cqc on him and MK reacted to the blitz attempt part of the cqc proved by the fact that he told Johan that his cqc copy wasn’t fully complete because he just didn’t use all the techniques in the attack so by this it should be:

HFBD Johan in base should be Mach 2.67(from the accepted Mach 2.67 Daniel feat) and then with cqc should be Mach 8.01 and then since base mk reacted to johans cqc via his comment after letting Johan hit him with it he should scale to HFBD Johan cqc mode so you equalize the speed being base mk>=HFBD Johan cqc mode then add the 3X multiplier and cqc mk should be Mach 24.03 and then since tom lee scales to or above mk while holding back you can give tom the Mach 24.03 speed and then since James completely violated tom speed wise then give the Mach 24.03 speeds for James for safe reasons though he should be higher and since kitae scales to James in speed via dodging his attacks and counter attacking you give kitae the Mach 24.03 speeds for safe reasons even though he should be higher and then ui Daniel(little body) scales to kitae in speed via him dodging and counter attacking him while in PB mode so you give big ui Daniel a base speed of Mach 24.03 and then since big ui Daniel has cqc you add the 3X multiplier and its Mach 72.09 and this should be valid since only god tiers would scale to this level of speed narratively.

 

[Scarlet_orchard]

So from what I’m getting
MK did react to johans cqc(via him saying Johan almost succeeded after getting hit with it and saying Johan still needs to copy all the forms/stances so it can be complete meaning that when Johan used to cqc on him he reacted and saw the stance he used and since mk was rel to or faster than Johan he should be rel or faster than cqc Johan(atleast at that time if mk uses his cqc)And MK is weaker than tom


Who is weaker than ui Daniel


So MK is Mach 24.03(via being rel to Johan in cqc mode because Johan at base form for safe reasons is equal to Daniel’s Mach 2.67 feat and add the 3X cqc multiplier should be Mach 8.01 and cqc MK should be faster)and then for safety tom is equal to MK in speed(since a holding back Tom lee is rel to or above mk) and then since tom while not burning himself isn't rel to James in speed and kitae is rel to James in speed via dodging speed mastery James and counter attacking and PB Daniel is rel to kitae(via the fight in 602) so PB Daniel in base should be equal to Mach 24.03 for safe reasons and then with 3X multiplier is Mach 72.09 and this should all be valid since this only applies to like god tiers

@CatLover313 you agree?

 

[CatLover313]

This is a lowball considering that MK in base let Johan use his cqc on him and MK reacted to the blitz attempt part of the cqc proved by the fact that he told Johan that his cqc copy wasn’t fully complete because he just didn’t use all the techniques in the attack so by this it should be:

HFBD Johan in base should be Mach 2.67(from the accepted Mach 2.67 Daniel feat) and then with cqc should be Mach 8.01 and then since base mk reacted to johans cqc via his comment after letting Johan hit him with it he should scale to HFBD Johan cqc mode so you equalize the speed being base mk>=HFBD Johan cqc mode then add the 3X multiplier and cqc mk should be Mach 24.03 and then since tom lee scales to or above mk while holding back you can give tom the Mach 24.03 speed and then since James completely violated tom speed wise then give the Mach 24.03 speeds for James for safe reasons though he should be higher and since kitae scales to James in speed via dodging his attacks and counter attacking you give kitae the Mach 24.03 speeds for safe reasons even though he should be higher and then ui Daniel(little body) scales to kitae in speed via him dodging and counter attacking him while in PB mode so you give big ui Daniel a base speed of Mach 24.03 and then since big ui Daniel has cqc you add the 3X multiplier and its Mach 72.09 and this should be valid since only god tiers would scale to this level of speed narratively.

No, Two problems break this before the math matters. First, MK's comment about the CQC copy being incomplete is verbal/cognitive acknowledgment, not a reaction. He didn't dodge, block, or counter in any shown movement, so it's not a valid speed feat and at most goes to his perception speed which is different from combat speed. Second, Johan hadn't finished mastering CQC yet at the MK fight, that happens later, against Yuseong (where he also passed out right after). So the base premise doesn't hold up before we even get to the chain of "should be higher, lowballing for safety" assumptions stacked on top.

 

[Scarlet_orchard]

No, Two problems break this before the math matters. First, MK's comment about the CQC copy being incomplete is verbal/cognitive acknowledgment, not a reaction. He didn't dodge, block, or counter in any shown movement, so it's not a valid speed feat and at most goes to his perception speed which is different from combat speed. Second, Johan hadn't finished mastering CQC yet at the MK fight, that happens later, against Yuseong (where he also passed out right after). So the base premise doesn't hold up before we even get to the chain of "should be higher, lowballing for safety" assumptions stacked on top.

1. Mk literally lets Johan perform the cqc on him lol he literally says try it on me and he stands still letting Johan do it I don’t think you read the chapter and 2.mk notes that he didn’t use all of the techniques the blitz attempt still happens the only problem was that he didn’t use all the attacks that mk uses as when Johan does it we only see him do attacks on the right shoulder but when we see him later try to copy the other attacks from mk it was around other parts of the body not just the shoulder

 

[CatLover313]

1. Mk literally lets Johan perform the cqc on him lol he literally says try it on me and he stands still letting Johan do it I don’t think you read the chapter and 2.mk notes that he didn’t use all of the techniques the blitz attempt still happens the only problem was that he didn’t use all the attacks that mk uses as when Johan does it we only see him do attacks on the right shoulder but when we see him later try to copy the other attacks from mk it was around other parts of the body not just the shoulder

MK perceived the attempt, but perception speed and combat speed aren't the same rating on this wiki, and need to be treated separately. Noticing/commenting on an attack after taking it demonstrates perception time at most, not combat speed, since there's no dodge/block/counter to measure movement against. Separately, even setting that aside, the copy itself is incomplete against MK, so it doesn't qualify for the full 3x CQC multiplier regardless of the speed you'd assign to MK here.

 

[Scarlet_orchard]

MK perceived the attempt, but perception speed and combat speed aren't the same rating on this wiki, and need to be treated separately. Noticing/commenting on an attack after taking it demonstrates perception time at most, not combat speed, since there's no dodge/block/counter to measure movement against. Separately, even setting that aside, the copy itself is incomplete against MK, so it doesn't qualify for the full 3x CQC multiplier regardless of the speed you'd assign to MK here.

You just repeated ur previous point but different wording I alr explained that MK wasn’t trying to move out of the way from Johan or do anything by his statements and his action right after provide a counter claim to that instead of repeating and I went over that second point aswell by saying that it was incomplete via johan not using all of the striking techniques as MK notes.

 

[CatLover313]

You just repeated ur previous point but different wording I alr explained that MK wasn’t trying to move out of the way from Johan or do anything by his statements and his action right after provide a counter claim to that instead of repeating and I went over that second point aswell by saying that it was incomplete via johan not using all of the striking techniques as MK notes.

It was repeated because nothing has debunked what I said, and as long as those points remained unanswered, as they weren't, then nothing changes. As long as the copy was incomplete, the multiplier does not apply, no matter what.

 

[Scarlet_orchard]

It was repeated because nothing has debunked what I said, and as long as those points remained unanswered, as they weren't, then nothing changes. As long as the copy was incomplete, the multiplier does not apply, no matter what.

You just didn’t understand or care to counter my points so it’s just denying just to deny no need to continue this further

 

[Lilybitdun]

Ik this crt kinda looks bad but that's the first time me making an upgrade crt so...yeah.

You can use spoiler boxes to make the proposal less of a wall of text, makes it easier for evaluation

What's the current consensus for the thread?

 

[CatLover313]

You can use spoiler boxes to make the proposal less of a wall of text, makes it easier for evaluation

What's the current consensus for the thread?

There's not really a consensus so far for the thread, but I can summarize the disagreements (Just the disagreements; Aksh can provide there own summary when they can) in an hour or so in a long summary

 

[CatLover313]

You can use spoiler boxes to make the proposal less of a wall of text, makes it easier for evaluation

What's the current consensus for the thread?

Consensus so far: The base feat is a Supersonic+ speed calc (913.85 m/s) performed by Daniel in Questism, where Daniel (Questism) is stated to have XXX speed stats. Johan appeared twice in Questism: first causing an "Evaluation Unsuccessful" error, later showing as flatly "UNMEASURABLE" once the MC's own stats were high enough to avoid the error. There's some dispute (Kakistan has raised timeline placement questions) but most of us aren't contesting that HFBD Johan scales above Questism Daniel for now. The CQC multiplier (3x AP/Speed/LS for Custom-CQC specifically) is an already-accepted CRT result, brought down from a "hundredfold" statement to match the previously-accepted 3x for True Ultra Instinct.

Ongoing disagreement (Kind of been dropped (?)): I don't think the CQC multiplier should extend to Johan's UI Copy mode, covered in earlier posts (UI Copy and CQC haven't been shown in a direct, controlled comparison; the "he'd have used the stronger one" logic is circular; and the supporting statements from Zack/MK don't hold up as real speed feats on inspection). To justify the multiplier, said argument should have it's own section and evidence in the post. I also don't think Yuseong scales off the feat used to justify it as he is intercepting an already heavily-injured, already-fatigued CQC Johan by jumping in front of Eugene, was reduced to a punching bag, and Johan passed out both before and after. That's not a clean reaction feat. Though this has kind of not been brought up in a while.

New issue that I actually noticed now so it's fair for a counteragument to be raised but I do want to point out (though it might just come down to staff opinion anyway): I was initially fine with Adrenaline Gun scaling to Johan's CQC-boosted speed (3x Supersonic+ = Hypersonic). But tracing the full chain forward, this creates a circularity problem: if base Gun is placed at Hypersonic off that, and then other Gen 2 characters (and Johan himself) are scaled to Hypersonic for being able to tag/hit Gun during the Hunt for Gun arc, that Hypersonic value then goes back into being the baseline that Johan's CQC 3x multiplier is applied to. Meaning the same multiplier chain is being used to both establish and then re-inflate the value it depends on. I'd like clarification on how this kind of loop is normally handled/avoided in accepted chains, but if not, the clearest way would just not allow them to scale to Hunt for Gun Arc Gun Park due to clear difference in fighting superiority (Or just give the Hypersonic rating to his adrenaline mode but that insinuates Injured adrenaline mode > Base mode....).

Newer specific disagreements with OP's chainscale that I also just noticed: "Jerry could somewhat react to CQC Warren in 1A" - I don't see support for this. From the panels, Jerry doesn't react at all once Warren starts his attack and he's reduced to taking hits until he's knocked out, not shown reacting or countering. "Eli simply scales above Warren" - I don't dispute Eli being above base Warren generally (their separate performances against Basement Hulk support that, albeit Warren was already fatigued/injured going in), but there's no shown connection between that baseline and CQC-boosted Warren specifically. The jump from "Eli > base Warren" to "Eli scales to CQC Warren" isn't supported with any scan. Also, I really would appreciate having scans to every reasonings instead of just unsupported reasonings, fixing the lookism profiles/making upgrades in CRT's have already been a pain due lack of available scans as I/others have always needed to gather them.

As I drop the last two paragraphs, we might be entering another batch of arguments (which is fair) so this might not end for a bit longer.

 

[Lilybitdun]

As I drop the last two paragraphs, we might be entering another batch of arguments (which is fair) so this might not end for a bit longer.

Hm, I'll wait for when arguments have concluded then

 

[Kakistan]

Thank you Lily for taking the time to read this.

Consensus so far: The base feat is a Supersonic+ speed calc (913.85 m/s) performed by Daniel in Questism, where Daniel (Questism) is stated to have XXX speed stats. Johan appeared twice in Questism: first causing an "Evaluation Unsuccessful" error, later showing as flatly "UNMEASURABLE" once the MC's own stats were high enough to avoid the error. There's some dispute (Kakistan has raised timeline placement questions) but most of us aren't contesting that HFBD Johan scales above Questism Daniel for now. The CQC multiplier (3x AP/Speed/LS for Custom-CQC specifically) is an already-accepted CRT result, brought down from a "hundredfold" statement to match the previously-accepted 3x for True Ultra Instinct.

Ongoing disagreement (Kind of been dropped (?)): I don't think the CQC multiplier should extend to Johan's UI Copy mode, covered in earlier posts (UI Copy and CQC haven't been shown in a direct, controlled comparison; the "he'd have used the stronger one" logic is circular; and the supporting statements from Zack/MK don't hold up as real speed feats on inspection). To justify the multiplier, said argument should have it's own section and evidence in the post. I also don't think Yuseong scales off the feat used to justify it as he is intercepting an already heavily-injured, already-fatigued CQC Johan by jumping in front of Eugene, was reduced to a punching bag, and Johan passed out both before and after. That's not a clean reaction feat. Though this has kind of not been brought up in a while.

New issue that I actually noticed now so it's fair for a counteragument to be raised but I do want to point out (though it might just come down to staff opinion anyway): I was initially fine with Adrenaline Gun scaling to Johan's CQC-boosted speed (3x Supersonic+ = Hypersonic). But tracing the full chain forward, this creates a circularity problem: if base Gun is placed at Hypersonic off that, and then other Gen 2 characters (and Johan himself) are scaled to Hypersonic for being able to tag/hit Gun during the Hunt for Gun arc, that Hypersonic value then goes back into being the baseline that Johan's CQC 3x multiplier is applied to. Meaning the same multiplier chain is being used to both establish and then re-inflate the value it depends on. I'd like clarification on how this kind of loop is normally handled/avoided in accepted chains, but if not, the clearest way would just not allow them to scale to Hunt for Gun Arc Gun Park due to clear difference in fighting superiority (Or just give the Hypersonic rating to his adrenaline mode but that insinuates Injured adrenaline mode > Base mode....).

Newer specific disagreements with OP's chainscale that I also just noticed: "Jerry could somewhat react to CQC Warren in 1A" - I don't see support for this. From the panels, Jerry doesn't react at all once Warren starts his attack and he's reduced to taking hits until he's knocked out, not shown reacting or countering. "Eli simply scales above Warren" - I don't dispute Eli being above base Warren generally (their separate performances against Basement Hulk support that, albeit Warren was already fatigued/injured going in), but there's no shown connection between that baseline and CQC-boosted Warren specifically. The jump from "Eli > base Warren" to "Eli scales to CQC Warren" isn't supported with any scan. Also, I really would appreciate having scans to every reasonings instead of just unsupported reasonings, fixing the lookism profiles/making upgrades in CRT's have already been a pain due lack of available scans as I/others have always needed to gather them.

As I drop the last two paragraphs, we might be entering another batch of arguments (which is fair) so this might not end for a bit longer.

Upon rereading for context of the CQC Johan and Base MK argument (which I must admit I blindly agreed at the time due to misremembering), I can soundly agree that Base MK should not be used to chainscale over CQC Johan, and especially neither should Yuseong [though I still believe PB Copy is superior, but that is a separate matter since it has no hard proof].

Another thing, my timeline displacement was more of a tangent due to seeing what Aksh said about the epilogue. It can be dismissed, I agree that the Johan in Pre-Timeskip Questism is Pre-HFBD Lookism, and that HFBD & 1A Arc started and ended during the timeskip.

I also agree with CatLover’s take on Jerry.

However, I must interject on Adrenaline Gun. First thing, this wouldn’t scale the 2nd Gen to Hypersonic for two reasons: Gun takes attacks on purpose. And Gun heavily powered up/got more serious against Johan. None of Gen 2 scale close to an actual Base Gun, demonstrated by Zack Lee (one of the narratively fastest) being caught like a fly despite trying to circle around him.

Gun at his best still scales to Goo, who should definitely have the Hypersonic+ scaling as he is as fast as/faster than Tom Lee.

Another reason why I believe Adrenaline Gun got a speed amp (enough to blitz CQC Johan) is because he stated himself “I can see your attacks from a mile away!”, which might seem negligible, but contrasts how he couldn’t do so with Johan prior to the Adrenaline Rush.

HOWEVER (#2), regarding MK once again, he himself states that Johan Seong’s prowess with his eyesight would be “beyond his comprehension”. Chapter 509. This is further substantiated by Jinyoung Park stating that he can only imagine how great Johan would be if his eyes worked properly. Chapter 478. I’ll offer two scales.

Scale 1
Questism Daniel (Mach 2.67) < Base HFBD Johan (Mach 2.67) < CQC HFG Johan (x3, Mach 8) < Adrenaline Gun (Mach 8) < IT Path Johan (Mach 8) < IT CQC Johan (x3, Mach 24)
This is pretty conservative and doesn’t have a lot of lenience for scaling others to it, but it’s the most concrete.

Scale 2 (Which I believe has good evidence)
Questism Daniel (Mach 2.67) < Base HFBD Johan (Mach 2.67) < Base MK (Mach 2.67) < CQC MK (x3, Mach 8) < Eyedrops Johan (Mach 8) < Excited Injured Gun (Mach 8) < CQC HFG Johan (x3, Mach 24) < Adrenaline Gun (Mach 24) < IT Path Johan (Mach 24) < IT CQC Johan (x3, Mach 72)

Reminder, Eyedrops Johan completely outclassed Injured Gun, who was destroying everyone else in Gen 2, until the Charles Choi exposition happened about Yamazaki and led to an Excited Injured Gun. Thus, I doubt they would scale to Mach 8, and instead should stay Mach 2.67.

 

[Aksh_sky]

Hm, I'll wait for when arguments have concluded then

The arguement done here is kinda off topic as it about a completely seperate chaiscaling from what has discussed and proposed in this OP.

 

[Aksh_sky]

Bump

 

[Pyro9278]

Thank you Lily for taking the time to read this.


Upon rereading for context of the CQC Johan and Base MK argument (which I must admit I blindly agreed at the time due to misremembering), I can soundly agree that Base MK should not be used to chainscale over CQC Johan, and especially neither should Yuseong [though I still believe PB Copy is superior, but that is a separate matter since it has no hard proof].

Another thing, my timeline displacement was more of a tangent due to seeing what Aksh said about the epilogue. It can be dismissed, I agree that the Johan in Pre-Timeskip Questism is Pre-HFBD Lookism, and that HFBD & 1A Arc started and ended during the timeskip.

I also agree with CatLover’s take on Jerry.

However, I must interject on Adrenaline Gun. First thing, this wouldn’t scale the 2nd Gen to Hypersonic for two reasons: Gun takes attacks on purpose. And Gun heavily powered up/got more serious against Johan. None of Gen 2 scale close to an actual Base Gun, demonstrated by Zack Lee (one of the narratively fastest) being caught like a fly despite trying to circle around him.

Gun at his best still scales to Goo, who should definitely have the Hypersonic+ scaling as he is as fast as/faster than Tom Lee.

Another reason why I believe Adrenaline Gun got a speed amp (enough to blitz CQC Johan) is because he stated himself “I can see your attacks from a mile away!”, which might seem negligible, but contrasts how he couldn’t do so with Johan prior to the Adrenaline Rush.

HOWEVER (#2), regarding MK once again, he himself states that Johan Seong’s prowess with his eyesight would be “beyond his comprehension”. Chapter 509. This is further substantiated by Jinyoung Park stating that he can only imagine how great Johan would be if his eyes worked properly. Chapter 478. I’ll offer two scales.

Scale 1
Questism Daniel (Mach 2.67) < Base HFBD Johan (Mach 2.67) < CQC HFG Johan (x3, Mach 8) < Adrenaline Gun (Mach 8) < IT Path Johan (Mach 8) < IT CQC Johan (x3, Mach 24)
This is pretty conservative and doesn’t have a lot of lenience for scaling others to it, but it’s the most concrete.

Scale 2 (Which I believe has good evidence)
Questism Daniel (Mach 2.67) < Base HFBD Johan (Mach 2.67) < Base MK (Mach 2.67) < CQC MK (x3, Mach 8) < Eyedrops Johan (Mach 8) < Excited Injured Gun (Mach 8) < CQC HFG Johan (x3, Mach 24) < Adrenaline Gun (Mach 24) < IT Path Johan (Mach 24) < IT CQC Johan (x3, Mach 72)

Reminder, Eyedrops Johan completely outclassed Injured Gun, who was destroying everyone else in Gen 2, until the Charles Choi exposition happened about Yamazaki and led to an Excited Injured Gun. Thus, I doubt they would scale to Mach 8, and instead should stay Mach 2.67.

Just so you know, we're not assuming Gun's adrenaline is an amplifier, right?

 

[Aksh_sky]

Just so you know, we're not assuming Gun's adrenaline is an amplifier, right?

Same with UI Copy actually. It's not like cqc is the ONLY multiplier and if u u use CQC you're 3x faster and stronger than whatever form you previously used. It's js 3x above base and many other forms also are multipliers too, js either are unqualifiable or not.

 

[WindyAttack]

Same with UI Copy actually. It's not like cqc is the ONLY multiplier and if u u use CQC you're 3x faster and stronger than whatever form you previously used. It's js 3x above base and many other forms also are multipliers too, js either are unqualifiable or not.

Shouldn't we use Terrabytte kick?

 

[CatLover313]

Shouldn't we use Terrabytte kick?

Terabyte kick was rejected from another thread because being a 3x increase in damage does not equate to 3x increase in energy output

 

[WindyAttack]

Terabyte kick was rejected from another thread because being a 3x increase in damage does not equate to 3x increase in energy output

I'm not sure how you can cause 3x damage without having co responding input increase

 

[Aksh_sky]

Terabyte kick was rejected from another thread because being a 3x increase in damage does not equate to 3x increase in energy output

In that case they didn't had proper args i suppose.

 

[Aksh_sky]

From the panels, Jerry doesn't react at all once Warren starts his attack and he's reduced to taking hits until he's knocked out, not shown reacting or countering.

CQC was literally active when Jerry closed in Warren and punched him so he does somewhat scales to it. Though idk what's the context behind ppl wanting to scale Jerry to Warren cqc.

Also in HFG, Warren and Red mode Jerry was able to attack Gun together. It's implicitly obvious that they're relative in speed by the time of HFG.

 

[Aksh_sky]

The jump from "Eli > base Warren" to "Eli scales to CQC Warren" isn't supported with any scan. Also, I really would appreciate having scans to every reasonings instead of just unsupported reasonings, fixing the lookism profiles/making upgrades in CRT's have already been a pain due lack of available scans as I/others have always needed to gather them.

Uhh sure...

 

[Aksh_sky]

P1: Johan was LITERALLY GETTING PERCEPTION BLITZED BY SMILING YUSEONG in HFBD.

P2: Johan was in an extremely desperate state to win. As he himself stated that he is putting EVERYTHING on line and he cannot mess this up.

P3: So it already makes plenty sense for Johan to use his strongest technique in that moment.

P4: Johan already knew CQC by that time and he could've also used it but he didn't, even though CQC isn't as tiring as UI Copy.

P5: Despite knowing that UI Daniel's techs could only be immitated by a perfect body and he'd be in a great pain if he tried to immitate it that also for only 10 seconds, he still chose to use that over using CQC against Yuseong.

P6: Johan started overpowering Yuseong badly, the same guy who was PERCEPTION BLITZING BASE JOHAN. And now Johan was able to overpower even crying Yuseong.

P7: Johan clearly implies that he needs to be as fast as possible, proving that UI Copy is his fastest technique.

P8: Johan clearly implies that he needs to be as strong as him even if it's just for 10 seconds, proving that UI Copy is his strongest technique.

P9: Johan also stated that he must draw EVERYTHING HE HAS, also implying that UI Copy is his strongest technique.

P10: For consistency, while he was using UI Copy, not only Johan himself admitted that he HAS to fight perfectly like that monster to match Yuseong and has to break all his limits. It's even stated while he was using UI Copy that he was now powerful beyond measures, implying even narratively that in this state he's the strongest he can get.

P11: For consistency, even Zack in 1A stated that multiple times that Johan was going all out (I've already provided scans for it).

P12: Similar to HFBD, Johan was also desperate to win in 1A aswell against Zack, because he saw Gun in him.

P13: So logically it makes sense for him to use his strongest and fastest techniques in both scenarios when he's in desperate need to win.

P14: In both cases he uses UI Copy above CQC despite it having more drawbacks than CQC after only 10 seconds of usage.

P15: Both substantially and narratively, his strongest and fastest technique at that time was shown to be UI Copy and NOT CQC despite of UI Copy taking a huge toll on his body.

C1: THEREFORE, UI Copy>CQC. Making UI Copy his strongest and fastest technique at that time.

P16: Eli deflected BH's attack from a close range.

P17: Zack, Warren and Eli, three of them faced BH after their respective fights so all 3 were almost equally tired.

P18: Zack couldn't react to BH's attack, neither could Warren.Zack couldn't react to BH's attack, neither could Warren.

P19: Johan even at that time was considered to be a legend and both implied by Jinyoung park and many, that he's the most talented amongst all 2nd gens.

P20: Warren's a second Gen.

P21: Therefore, Johan's techniques are better and stronger than Warren's.

P22: Johan used his strongest and fastest technique against Zack (already established in C1)

P23: Therefore, UI Copy Johan>CQC Warren.

P24: Zack defeated UI Copy Johan and counterattacked him from a close range.

P25: Therefore, Zack ≈ UI Copy Johan in terms of speed and power.

P26: This would also prove that Zack>CQC Warren in terms of speed and power.(From P23)

P27: Eli>CQC Warren and Zack in terms of speed (From P16, P18 and P26)

C2: THEREFORE, AI Eli is faster than CQC Warren.

 

[Aksh_sky]

P1: Johan was LITERALLY GETTING PERCEPTION BLITZED BY SMILING YUSEONG in HFBD.

P2: Johan was in an extremely desperate state to win. As he himself stated that he is putting EVERYTHING on line and he cannot mess this up.

P3: So it already makes plenty sense for Johan to use his strongest technique in that moment.

P4: Johan already knew CQC by that time and he could've also used it but he didn't, even though CQC isn't as tiring as UI Copy.

P5: Despite knowing that UI Daniel's techs could only be immitated by a perfect body and he'd be in a great pain if he tried to immitate it that also for only 10 seconds, he still chose to use that over using CQC against Yuseong.

P6: Johan started overpowering Yuseong badly, the same guy who was PERCEPTION BLITZING BASE JOHAN. And now Johan was able to overpower even crying Yuseong.

P7: Johan clearly implies that he needs to be as fast as possible, proving that UI Copy is his fastest technique.

P8: Johan clearly implies that he needs to be as strong as him even if it's just for 10 seconds, proving that UI Copy is his strongest technique.

P9: Johan also stated that he must draw EVERYTHING HE HAS, also implying that UI Copy is his strongest technique.

P10: For consistency, while he was using UI Copy, not only Johan himself admitted that he HAS to fight perfectly like that monster to match Yuseong and has to break all his limits. It's even stated while he was using UI Copy that he was now powerful beyond measures, implying even narratively that in this state he's the strongest he can get.

P11: For consistency, even Zack in 1A stated that multiple times that Johan was going all out (I've already provided scans for it).

P12: Similar to HFBD, Johan was also desperate to win in 1A aswell against Zack, because he saw Gun in him.

P13: So logically it makes sense for him to use his strongest and fastest techniques in both scenarios when he's in desperate need to win.

P14: In both cases he uses UI Copy above CQC despite it having more drawbacks than CQC after only 10 seconds of usage.

P15: Both substantially and narratively, his strongest and fastest technique at that time was shown to be UI Copy and NOT CQC despite of UI Copy taking a huge toll on his body.

C1: THEREFORE, UI Copy>CQC. Making UI Copy his strongest and fastest technique at that time.

P16: Eli deflected BH's attack from a close range.

P17: Zack, Warren and Eli, three of them faced BH after their respective fights so all 3 were almost equally tired.

P18: Zack couldn't react to BH's attack, neither could Warren.Zack couldn't react to BH's attack, neither could Warren.

P19: Johan even at that time was considered to be a legend and both implied by Jinyoung park and many, that he's the most talented amongst all 2nd gens.

P20: Warren's a second Gen.

P21: Therefore, Johan's techniques are better and stronger than Warren's.

P22: Johan used his strongest and fastest technique against Zack (already established in C1)

P23: Therefore, UI Copy Johan>CQC Warren.

P24: Zack defeated UI Copy Johan and counterattacked him from a close range.

P25: Therefore, Zack ≈ UI Copy Johan in terms of speed and power.

P26: This would also prove that Zack>CQC Warren in terms of speed and power.(From P23)

P27: Eli>CQC Warren and Zack in terms of speed (From P16, P18 and P26)

C2: THEREFORE, AI Eli is faster than CQC Warren.

@CatLover313

 

[Pyro9278]

@CatLover313

Only staff members can mention other members; if someone else does, there's no notification. It's best to quote one of their replies so they see it.

 

[Aksh_sky]

Only staff members can mention other members; if someone else does, there's no notification. It's best to quote one of their replies so they see it.

Noted

 

[Pyro9278]

Same with UI Copy actually. It's not like cqc is the ONLY multiplier and if u u use CQC you're 3x faster and stronger than whatever form you previously used. It's js 3x above base and many other forms also are multipliers too, js either are unqualifiable or not.

I'm more inclined to think that Gun with adrenaline is the same base Gun but with his Stamina restored, similar to Vasco's state or when someone enters the UI without controlling it.

 

[Pyro9278]

P19: Johan even at that time was considered to be a legend and both implied by Jinyoung park and many, that he's the most talented amongst all 2nd gens.

P20: Warren's a second Gen.

P21: Therefore, Johan's techniques are better and stronger than Warren's.

P22: Johan used his strongest and fastest technique against Zack (already established in C1)

P23: Therefore, UI Copy Johan>CQC Warren.

P24: Zack defeated UI Copy Johan and counterattacked him from a close range.

P25: Therefore, Zack ≈ UI Copy Johan in terms of speed and power.

P26: This would also prove that Zack>CQC Warren in terms of speed and power.(From P23)

P27: Eli>CQC Warren and Zack in terms of speed (From P16, P18 and P26)

C2: THEREFORE, AI Eli is faster than CQC Warren.

P1: Ryuhei is a motorcyclist.

P2: Gun calls him the strongest rider.

P3: James Lee drives a motorcycle.

P4: Ryuhei is stronger than James Lee.

Please tell me that this is not the logic of THIS analogy. Because if so, we will have a lot of trouble accepting that.

I don’t even understand why we’re assuming that Zack is stronger than a Johan blinded by anger with his strongest version at the time. Johan was going to kill, yes, but he was acting more on instinct than really formulating a strategy, while Zack could win just by being smarter and fighting to the point AND STILL, Zack himself admitted that everything he fought could only drain Johan’s energy.

 

[CatLover313]

I'm not sure how you can cause 3x damage without having co responding input increase

Damage output and energy output aren't the same measurement. Damage depends on more than raw energy, it's can be due to penetration, concentration of force, where/how the attack lands, the durability of what it's hitting, game mechanics, etc. A "critical hit" dealing 3x damage could just mean the attack found a more effective point of impact, not that the attacker suddenly output 3x the energy. So "deals 3x critical damage" tells you about the result on the target, not the output of the attacker, which is why it can't be used as a stat multiplier without something more direct.

 

[CatLover313]

P1: Johan was LITERALLY GETTING PERCEPTION BLITZED BY SMILING YUSEONG in HFBD.

P2: Johan was in an extremely desperate state to win. As he himself stated that he is putting EVERYTHING on line and he cannot mess this up.

P3: So it already makes plenty sense for Johan to use his strongest technique in that moment.

P4: Johan already knew CQC by that time and he could've also used it but he didn't, even though CQC isn't as tiring as UI Copy.

P5: Despite knowing that UI Daniel's techs could only be immitated by a perfect body and he'd be in a great pain if he tried to immitate it that also for only 10 seconds, he still chose to use that over using CQC against Yuseong.

P6: Johan started overpowering Yuseong badly, the same guy who was PERCEPTION BLITZING BASE JOHAN. And now Johan was able to overpower even crying Yuseong.

P7: Johan clearly implies that he needs to be as fast as possible, proving that UI Copy is his fastest technique.

P8: Johan clearly implies that he needs to be as strong as him even if it's just for 10 seconds, proving that UI Copy is his strongest technique.

P9: Johan also stated that he must draw EVERYTHING HE HAS, also implying that UI Copy is his strongest technique.

P10: For consistency, while he was using UI Copy, not only Johan himself admitted that he HAS to fight perfectly like that monster to match Yuseong and has to break all his limits. It's even stated while he was using UI Copy that he was now powerful beyond measures, implying even narratively that in this state he's the strongest he can get.

P11: For consistency, even Zack in 1A stated that multiple times that Johan was going all out (I've already provided scans for it).

P12: Similar to HFBD, Johan was also desperate to win in 1A aswell against Zack, because he saw Gun in him.

P13: So logically it makes sense for him to use his strongest and fastest techniques in both scenarios when he's in desperate need to win.

P14: In both cases he uses UI Copy above CQC despite it having more drawbacks than CQC after only 10 seconds of usage.

P15: Both substantially and narratively, his strongest and fastest technique at that time was shown to be UI Copy and NOT CQC despite of UI Copy taking a huge toll on his body.

C1: THEREFORE, UI Copy>CQC. Making UI Copy his strongest and fastest technique at that time.

P16: Eli deflected BH's attack from a close range.

P17: Zack, Warren and Eli, three of them faced BH after their respective fights so all 3 were almost equally tired.

P18: Zack couldn't react to BH's attack, neither could Warren.Zack couldn't react to BH's attack, neither could Warren.

P19: Johan even at that time was considered to be a legend and both implied by Jinyoung park and many, that he's the most talented amongst all 2nd gens.

P20: Warren's a second Gen.

P21: Therefore, Johan's techniques are better and stronger than Warren's.

P22: Johan used his strongest and fastest technique against Zack (already established in C1)

P23: Therefore, UI Copy Johan>CQC Warren.

P24: Zack defeated UI Copy Johan and counterattacked him from a close range.

P25: Therefore, Zack ≈ UI Copy Johan in terms of speed and power.

P26: This would also prove that Zack>CQC Warren in terms of speed and power.(From P23)

P27: Eli>CQC Warren and Zack in terms of speed (From P16, P18 and P26)

C2: THEREFORE, AI Eli is faster than CQC Warren.

Only addressing a couple of points because it fumbles when just a few things are pointed out and things I already addressed in previous arguments.

On P5 (UI Copy vs. CQC choice against Yuseong): This misrepresents the timeline of the MK fight. The entire lead-up to Yuseong is Johan actively fighting MK while still trying to learn/copy CQC (the first time Johan performs an actual mastered copy is at the very end of that fight, with him internally coaching himself through it ("recall it, correct your stance, become your own master")). That's not "Johan had CQC available and chose UI Copy instead," that's Johan not yet reliably having a mastered CQC at the point the choice would've mattered. A technique he'd only just landed once (not even perfectly either), moments earlier, isn't a proven, reliable tool he's knowingly passing over in favor of UI Copy. It's the difference between choosing between two known quantities versus falling back on the one he's actually confident in.

On P11–15 (Zack fight, "used strongest technique because desperate"): This is the same "he'd have used the stronger option" logic applied to a second fight, and it's still circular for the same reason. "He used UI Copy in both his most desperate fights" doesn't establish UI Copy > CQC, it just as easily supports UI Copy being the tool he trusts/knows best in a crisis, independent of raw power ranking. Repeating the pattern across two fights doesn't fix the underlying assumption problem, it just applies it twice.

On P17–19 (Zack/Warren couldn't react to BH, but Johan implicitly could): This actually cuts against your own chain rather than supporting it. Base drugged Johan and Zack fight comparably before Johan shifts into UI Copy and overwhelms Zack, only for Zack to land a block and knock him out with his Ji counterpunch. Later, a tired Zack can't react to BH's attack at all, but a non-drugged Johan, still damaged and tired from his own fight, reacts well and performs noticeably better than Zack against BH. That's a real gap in their post-fight performance, not just narrative flavor, and it undercuts the "comparable base fight" framing: if Johan was that far ahead of Zack shortly after, the earlier "fighting was comparable" read either wasn't a clean equal-footing matchup to begin with, or something else (fatigue, restraint, the drug itself) was distorting it. Either way, P17–19 can't be used to reinforce Zack ≈ Johan while also showing this gap right after, pick one.

On P23 ("UI Copy Johan > CQC Warren"): This assumes both characters' base forms are already established as comparable/relative, which hasn't actually been shown and the whole chain up to this point has been about techniques. Without that base-form equivalency being independently proven, "his boosted form beat their boosted form" doesn't tell you anything about the techniques themselves.

On P24–27 (Zack ≈ UI Copy Johan → Zack > CQC Warren → Eli > CQC Warren/Zack): This is downstream of P23 and has the same unproven base-form-equivalency problem, plus the consistency issue below. If the chain underneath doesn't hold, none of the conclusions stacked on top of it do either.

Consistency issue with CQC/UI Copy usage generally: If two characters' base forms are supposed to be relative, but then one or both use a 3x multiplier technique (CQC accepted, UI Copy theoretical) and the fight continues to be roughly even, both still landing hits, blocking, exchanging, then either the multiplier isn't actually being applied at full effect in that exchange, or the "relative base forms" premise is wrong somewhere. This hasn't been addressed anywhere in the chain: there are multiple instances of characters whose base speeds are treated as comparable continuing to trade blows evenly even after one activates a supposed 3x technique, which should make the fight one-sided, not stay competitive. That inconsistency needs to be resolved before any of these individual multiplier-based scaling claims can be taken at face value.

 

[Kakistan]

Just so you know, we're not assuming Gun's adrenaline is an amplifier, right?

Nah, Adrenaline just for sure brings him back to base or maybe a bit above, shrug on the latter.

It's in no way a multiplier due to how it works, which is removing the effect of injuries & fatigue.

So FP Base Gun would be relative in speed or something to Adrenaline Gun.

 

[Kakistan]

CQC was literally active when Jerry closed in Warren and punched him so he does somewhat scales to it. Though idk what's the context behind ppl wanting to scale Jerry to Warren cqc.

Also in HFG, Warren and Red mode Jerry was able to attack Gun together. It's implicitly obvious that they're relative in speed by the time of HFG.

Is there any proof this isn't normal CQC rather than his special one?

Jerry scaling to x3 Warren wouldn't make any sense, they're about relative in base.

 

[WindyAttack]

Nah, Adrenaline just for sure brings him back to base or maybe a bit above, shrug on the latter.

It's in no way a multiplier due to how it works, which is removing the effect of injuries & fatigue.

So FP Base Gun would be relative in speed or something to Adrenaline Gun.

I think it works something like

Let's say Gun is 100 HP if his health gets down to 30 then with adrenaline he can get back to 100 so Techniquelly a amp but the condition of this amp applying is what makes it a non amp over base and irrelevant

 

[Kakistan]

I think it works something like

Let's say Gun is 100 HP if his health gets down to 30 then with adrenaline he can get back to 100 so Techniquelly a amp but the condition of this amp applying is what makes it a non amp over base and irrelevant

Yeah, it's kinda like a special healing potion that also removes status effects (ex: Broken Bone, Bleeding, Fractures, yada yada) for a temporary time period afterward.

 

[Aksh_sky]

P1: Ryuhei is a motorcyclist.

P2: Gun calls him the strongest rider.

P3: James Lee drives a motorcycle.

P4: Ryuhei is stronger than James Lee.

Please tell me that this is not the logic of THIS analogy. Because if so, we will have a lot of trouble accepting that.

I don’t even understand why we’re assuming that Zack is stronger than a Johan blinded by anger with his strongest version at the time. Johan was going to kill, yes, but he was acting more on instinct than really formulating a strategy, while Zack could win just by being smarter and fighting to the point AND STILL, Zack himself admitted that everything he fought could only drain Johan’s energy.

Ts reminds me of the Mihawk agenda, lol.

Anyways, ye Zack WAS stronger than 1A Johan... blinded my whatever but I've already proven it in my syllogism, be was bloodlustes and was at FP.

 

[Aksh_sky]

On P5 (UI Copy vs. CQC choice against Yuseong): This misrepresents the timeline of the MK fight. The entire lead-up to Yuseong is Johan actively fighting MK while still trying to learn/copy CQC (the first time Johan performs an actual mastered copy is at the very end of that fight, with him internally coaching himself through it ("recall it, correct your stance, become your own master")). That's not "Johan had CQC available and chose UI Copy instead," that's Johan not yet reliably having a mastered CQC at the point the choice would've mattered. A technique he'd only just landed once (not even perfectly either), moments earlier, isn't a proven, reliable tool he's knowingly passing over in favor of UI Copy. It's the difference between choosing between two known quantities versus falling back on the one he's actually confident in.

Again, my premise regarding the same happening in 1A pretty much negates it since he did knew CQC back then too.

On P11–15 (Zack fight, "used strongest technique because desperate"): This is the same "he'd have used the stronger option" logic applied to a second fight, and it's still circular for the same reason. "He used UI Copy in both his most desperate fights" doesn't establish UI Copy > CQC, it just as easily supports UI Copy being the tool he trusts/knows best in a crisis, independent of raw power ranking. Repeating the pattern across two fights doesn't fix the underlying assumption problem, it just applies it twice.

Do you know what circular reasoning even is? And what's the difference between circular reasoning and consistency model? None of my premises assumes that it's stronger just because of the fact that it was prefered over CQC, the preferability just adds a consistency over the fact that, it was the technique that was stated to be his FP in almost all sources wether the speaker is Eugene, Zack, Yuseong or Johan himself... infact they even specifically mentioned this state to be the strongest.

Let me give another syllogism for an example:

P1: X was shown to be the strongest powerup for person P(x)

P2: X was prefered over Y in a desperate situation by P(x)

C: Therefore, X>Y (from P1 and P2)

Note: P2 is NOT an independent premise from which X > Y is inferred. Instead, it functions as a consistency model for, if P1 is true, then P2 is exactly the behavior we would expect. Using P2 alone to infer X > Y would be a non sequitur as something prefered over another doesn't automatically justifies superior of something over the other.

And if i were to write this more simply then:

S(X): X is the strongest power-up available to P.

P1: S(X)
P2: Pref(P, X, Y) [consistent with S(X)]
C: Therefore, X > Y.

On P17–19 (Zack/Warren couldn't react to BH, but Johan implicitly could): This actually cuts against your own chain rather than supporting it. Base drugged Johan and Zack fight comparably before Johan shifts into UI Copy and overwhelms Zack, only for Zack to land a block and knock him out with his Ji counterpunch. Later, a tired Zack can't react to BH's attack at all, but a non-drugged Johan, still damaged and tired from his own fight, reacts well and performs noticeably better than Zack against BH. That's a real gap in their post-fight performance, not just narrative flavor, and it undercuts the "comparable base fight" framing: if Johan was that far ahead of Zack shortly after, the earlier "fighting was comparable" read either wasn't a clean equal-footing matchup to begin with, or something else (fatigue, restraint, the drug itself) was distorting it. Either way, P17–19 can't be used to reinforce Zack ≈ Johan while also showing this gap right after, pick one.

I don't remember him exactly 'dodging' one attack, he was js jumping BH with the other crewheads just like how the Fist Gang boutta move the next chapter(Jumpism is real). And yes Zack>Johan but conditions were different when they fought BH, meanwhile my premises regarding BH only deals with Zack, Warren and Eli and js is there to prove that Eli>Zack(in speed), otherwise whatever happens to Johan would be conditional and would require justification from your behalf to prove that the exact conditions were met, as the burden of proof isn't on me.

On P23 ("UI Copy Johan > CQC Warren"): This assumes both characters' base forms are already established as comparable/relative, which hasn't actually been shown and the whole chain up to this point has been about techniques. Without that base-form equivalency being independently proven, "his boosted form beat their boosted form" doesn't tell you anything about the techniques themselves.

This doens't 'assume' anything, i posited it as a necessity following from all my other premises. And also your negations to not lack justification, you would require for you to disprove the arguements that were pre established for this premise first as otherwise it doens't really correlates with my reasoning and justifications.

Consistency issue with CQC/UI Copy usage generally: If two characters' base forms are supposed to be relative, but then one or both use a 3x multiplier technique (CQC accepted, UI Copy theoretical) and the fight continues to be roughly even, both still landing hits, blocking, exchanging, then either the multiplier isn't actually being applied at full effect in that exchange, or the "relative base forms" premise is wrong somewhere. This hasn't been addressed anywhere in the chain: there are multiple instances of characters whose base speeds are treated as comparable continuing to trade blows evenly even after one activates a supposed 3x technique, which should make the fight one-sided, not stay competitive. That inconsistency needs to be resolved before any of these individual multiplier-based scaling claims can be taken at face value.

Literally not relevant with my arguements and neither it even addresses the justifications behind my C1 in which i established that UI Copy>CQC, you just proposed a possibility with seperate circumstances that says that if this happened somewhere then it could be true here, but this ignores my side of justifications and what I've posited as I've posited it as necessity(□), not possibly(◇) so your position also has the burden to justify that all conditions and circumstances in your possible countermodel matches with all the conditions with my necessity claim that I've proposed.