Absolute Zero Standard Revision

[Expectro2000xxx]

This should probably be posted as a staff discussion but since I haven't asked anyone to post there I will just do it as a normal crt.

I just discovered that on the page for the common feats we actually link a calculation about freezing a person to absolute zero, and we give it a 9-A rating. Now as most of you probably already know, in irl physics it's impossible to reach absolute zero due to needing an infinite amount of energy as per the third law of thermodynamics, so any calculation that uses absolute zero is sincerely non-sensical as we already know from the start that it would result in High 3-A, the same way that any KE calculation using the speed of light gives High 3-A. An argument that some people may use is that "well, most verses don't treat absolute zero that way so we can just ignore that part and deal with it as if the temperature was simply dropped to -273.15°C/0K" but at that point I would suppose those are the same type of people who argues "well, most verses don't treat the speed of light that way so we can just ignore that part and deal with it as they just moved at 299792458m/s", which is something we evidently don't do in the wiki as that's breaking one of the most fundamental principles of physics to get a better result and wank a character for the sake of just wanking.

So my proposal is simple, we remove the absolute zero calculation in the common feats page and write a note in the absolute zero feats in fiction page saying how calculations using absolute zero are not allowed due to needing infinite energy, the same way we do note that light speed isn't allowed with KE feats for the same reason of needing infinite energy to accomplish with physics.

 

[Dalesean027]

This should probably be posted as a staff discussion but since I haven't asked anyone to post there I will just do it as a normal crt.

I just discovered that on the page for the common feats we actually link a calculation about freezing a person to absolute zero, and we give it a 9-A rating. Now as most of you probably already know, in irl physics it's impossible to reach absolute zero due to needing an infinite amount of energy as per the third law of thermodynamics, so any calculation that uses absolute zero is sincerely non-sensical as we already know from the start that it would result in High 3-A, the same way that any KE calculation using the speed of light gives High 3-A. An argument that some people may use is that "well, most verses don't treat absolute zero that way so we can just ignore that part and deal with it as if the temperature was simply dropped to -273.15°C/0K" but at that point I would suppose those are the same type of people who argues "well, most verses don't treat the speed of light that way so we can just ignore that part and deal with it as they just moved at 299792458m/s", which is something we evidently don't do in the wiki as that's breaking one of the most fundamental principles of physics to get a better result and wank a character for the sake of just wanking.

So my proposal is simple, we remove the absolute zero calculation in the common feats page and write a note in the absolute zero feats in fiction page saying how calculations using absolute zero are not allowed due to needing infinite energy, the same way we do note that light speed isn't allowed with KE feats for the same reason of needing infinite energy to accomplish with physics.

we apparently do have a page regarding absolute zero feats in fiction but for some reason its not included in the actual listing with the other calculations for some reason but even then it doesn't mention anything about actually using it in calculations either. But yeah it would indeed of course take infinite energy to reach absolute zero sooooo...

@Antvasima another thread here that could use some staff attention, thanks for your help with all of these

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

we apparently do have a page regarding absolute zero feats in fiction but for some reason its not included in the actual listing with the other calculations for some reason but even then it doesn't mention anything about actually using it in calculations either. But yeah it would indeed of course take infinite energy to reach absolute zero sooooo...

@Antvasima another thread here that could use some staff attention, thanks for your help with all of these

I know the page, as I mentioned in the op my proposal is to add a note to that page saying how calculations with absolute zero aren't allowed due to need infinite energy to exist with physics.

 

[Mahek_The_Assassin_Silent_Killer]

we apparently do have a page regarding absolute zero feats in fiction but for some reason its not included in the actual listing with the other calculations for some reason but even then it doesn't mention anything about actually using it in calculations either. But yeah it would indeed of course take infinite energy to reach absolute zero sooooo...

@Antvasima another thread here that could use some staff attention, thanks for your help with all of these

I know the page, as I mentioned in the op my proposal is to add a note to that page saying how calculations with absolute zero aren't allowed due to need infinite energy to exist with physics.

Yeah... I still have no idea how these sorts of logic work given that we have tons of cases of fiction defying real world laws/theories in many different ways....

So can I just clarify: RATINGS are ALLOWED (as in like the scales/benchmarks of FTL, Massively FTL, etc for light speed for example), but ACTUAL CALCULATIONS are NOT ALLOWED, for fictional feats that defy real world physics, in terms of any other measurements other than what is being measured (speed, temperature, etc) such as KE or thermodynamics then?

I mean I get the logic and rationale but also a bit odd considering that we have benchmarks but not calculations for real-world-law/theory-defying feats, but ehh still understandable given the explanations as to what and what not to measure regarding said feats, would be nice to have clarifications as to what and what not to measure though as Expectro is proposing.

 

[Mahek_The_Assassin_Silent_Killer]

Absolute zero - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Also... it might be unlikely but perhaps parts of our Universe might reach 0 K or even less at some point in time (at least the very remote areas with no trace of matter or energy whatsoever, and I have no idea if it already is the case)... but other than that yeah I still agree we need to clarify what and what not to measure for scaling, calculations, and whatnot.

 

[Migue79]

Yeah, no. I agree with removing the calc. Dunno if it's necessary to add that it's not allowed, though.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Yeah... I still have no idea how these sorts of logic work given that we have tons of cases of fiction defying real world laws/theories in many different ways....

So can I just clarify: RATINGS are ALLOWED (as in like the scales/benchmarks of FTL, Massively FTL, etc for light speed for example), but ACTUAL CALCULATIONS are NOT ALLOWED, for fictional feats that defy real world physics, in terms of any other measurements other than what is being measured (speed, temperature, etc) such as KE or thermodynamics then?

I mean I get the logic and rationale but also a bit odd considering that we have benchmarks but not calculations for real-world-law/theory-defying feats, but ehh still understandable given the explanations as to what and what not to measure regarding said feats, would be nice to have clarifications as to what and what not to measure though as Expectro is proposing.

As fiction is fiction communities tend to give certain leniency to their feats, as it is expected that most authors and persons do not know all the details and nuisances involved with the science behind feats, however if they get the intention of trying to quantify said feats through the use of calculations then there are certain rules that need to be followed to allow it, the specific limits of these rules can vary between communities but in general they tend to follow the most basic/fundamental/important rules of physics, and in this case the laws of thermodynamics are one of those very fundamental laws of physics, so we can't feasibly do a calculation using -273.15°C/0K that doesn't end in infinite energy.

In the case of reaching ftl speeds is easier to calculate as we only need something as simple as a distance and time, and they wouldn't give an infinite result, the infinite result would be in the case that we tried of calculating the kinetic energy generated, which is why the KE page specifies that it isn't allowed to do ftl KE calculations, hence the crt to add an equivalent note in the absolute zero feats page.

Absolute zero - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Also... it might be unlikely but perhaps parts of our Universe might reach 0 K or even less at some point in time (at least the very remote areas with no trace of matter or energy whatsoever, and I have no idea if it already is the case)... but other than that yeah I still agree we need to clarify what and what not to measure for scaling, calculations, and whatnot.

A temperature below 0K is indeed easier to get than absolute zero, as strange as that sounds, though even that would produce an infinite result as it makes things infinitely hotter.

Yeah, no. I agree with removing the calc. Dunno if it's necessary to add that it's not allowed, though.

I mean, we currently note that it isn't allowed ftl KE calculations due to the infinite result

• No kinetic energy for faster than light speeds: Kinetic energy calculated for FTL objects is not considered legitimate, as the kinetic energy of an object, using the correct physical description through relativistic mechanics, would require infinite energy to reach the speed of light, and for objects above the speed of light the equations wouldn't return real values. Since the energy would approach infinity towards the speed of light it also isn't allowed to use relativistic speed as an approximation for the kinetic energy of faster than light objects, since by using an approximation close enough to the speed of light any given value could be reached through that method.

So it seems logical to do the same with the absolute zero feats page, as it's the same principle.

 

[Antvasima]

@Antvasima another thread here that could use some staff attention, thanks for your help with all of these

@DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Mr. Bambu @Therefir @Ugarik @DMUA @Damage3245 @TheRustyOne @DemonGodMitchAubin @Jasonsith @Wokistan @Armorchompy @Psychomaster35 @CloverDragon03 @Dark-Carioca @AbaddonTheDisappointment @Aguywhodoesthings @Agnaa @DemiiPowa @Flashlight237 @SeijiSetto @SunDaGamer

I think that we need your help here.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree the calculation isn't really going to be usable given the process of how AZ actually works. The energy required to freeze is lowballed and the closer the goal is to AZ, the more exponentially higher the energy required to perform the feat is. The only way an AZ calculation like this could work is if the method was due to atomic level bloodbending every atom/molecule in the body to come to a complete stop. But doing so via more traditional methods such as supercooled plasma or wind manipulation would effectively be High 3-A via the true formula.

And in other words, I basically agree with the OP.

 

[Damage3245]

I agree with the OP.

 

[DontTalkDT]

So, the thing is, that would imply that if we had a calc close to AZ we would get higher results due to considerations regarding cooling effectiveness, but we don't really do that.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the reason it would take infinite work in reality is out of "practical considerations". I.e. any process you could try to use to get that last little bit will itself consume a lot of energy, more than it actually drains from the system.
However, fictional magic is unlikely to work by laser cooling or the like. Instead, it just magically slows down particles into stillness. E.g. it may telekinetically grab them and just hold them in place. (e.g.)

I would hence be more in favour of restricting the applicability of the calc. For a fiction that reaches AZ through some physical process, like laser cooling, the calc shouldn't be used. For the same reason one would, theoretically, if one figures out how, be allowed to use formulas for the increased energy needed to cool close to AZ to calc those feats to levels higher than the mere change of energy they caused.
However, for magic that completely ignores any plausible cooling process and just uses magic power to lower heat energy / particle KE, I think an estimation based on just the energy change is generally the appropriate way to calc and, hence, there would be no problem doing the same for AZ either. For those feats (in)efficiency considerations are just not relevant.

 

[SunDaGamer]

Agreeing with DT here, even something like measuring a particle's temperature to be absolute zero is practically impossible since the methods used to measure it would require energy exchange even if it is as miniscule as interacting with a single proton (the closest people have measured to absolute zero is -273.149999999962°C). It's not in the same vein as an object travelling at the speed of light where the observed mass of the object becomes infinite and thus needs infinite energy to move.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

So, the thing is, that would imply that if we had a calc close to AZ we would get higher results due to considerations regarding cooling effectiveness, but we don't really do that.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the reason it would take infinite work in reality is out of "practical considerations". I.e. any process you could try to use to get that last little bit will itself consume a lot of energy, more than it actually drains from the system.
However, fictional magic is unlikely to work by laser cooling or the like. Instead, it just magically slows down particles into stillness. E.g. it may telekinetically grab them and just hold them in place. (e.g.)

I would hence be more in favour of restricting the applicability of the calc. For a fiction that reaches AZ through some physical process, like laser cooling, the calc shouldn't be used. For the same reason one would, theoretically, if one figures out how, be allowed to use formulas for the increased energy needed to cool close to AZ to calc those feats to levels higher than the mere change of energy they caused.
However, for magic that completely ignores any plausible cooling process and just uses magic power to lower heat energy / particle KE, I think an estimation based on just the energy change is generally the appropriate way to calc and, hence, there would be no problem doing the same for AZ either. For those feats (in)efficiency considerations are just not relevant.

Too my knowledge, most "Ice Magic" in fiction is treated more as a subpower of wind magic. And using highly concentrated wind to freeze things is physically the same thing as laser cooling. Realistically, most winds or lasers typically heat things faster than it could blunt force thermal energy out of an object unless the "Energy/Power pressure/intensity" measured in Watts/M^2 is like really high. Or winds with high intensity relative to super low AoE can freeze things but ones with wide AoE are almost prone to warm things faster than it can cool things. For verse examples where ice is more associated with water rather than wind, I can basically agree, but I still think the wind examples, it more or less is the same process as using lasers or electrical currents.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

However, for magic that completely ignores any plausible cooling process and just uses magic power to lower heat energy / particle KE, I think an estimation based on just the energy change is generally the appropriate way to calc and, hence, there would be no problem doing the same for AZ either. For those feats (in)efficiency considerations are just not relevant.

I mean, if we will argue that just because it's magic it can be ignored the physics requirements of infinite energy then then we may as well allow KE calculations with ftl speeds just ignoring the infinite energy needed.

As far as physics goes, you need either infinite time, energy or infinite control of an infinitely complexity system with quantum physics to delete all the information of particles, so unless the verse specifies that water/ice magic is capable of erasing information or their users have infinite skill controlling quantum particles, which in my experience I would say it isn't the case with most verses, then I don't think it would be valid to calculate their absolute zero feat, and I don't know how the formula used in that third case would be to get a result in joules usable for our purposes. So regardless of the way there is always an infinity at play with absolute zero calculations.

I sincerely think that all verses with an absolute zero feat also have other types of feats to scale and get ap, so I don't understand the fixation with trying to break physics to get a non infinite result to use, if it's for the sake of just get bigger numbers to upgrade to a high tier then let's just also allow ftl KE, I thought the principle that the tiering system and calculations used in the wiki tried to accomplish was as much scientific accuracy as possible but if that's not the case then sure, go ahead I suppose.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Too my knowledge, most "Ice Magic" in fiction is treated more as a subpower of wind magic. And using highly concentrated wind to freeze things is physically the same thing as laser cooling. Realistically, most winds or lasers typically heat things faster than it could blunt force thermal energy out of an object unless the "Energy/Power pressure/intensity" measured in Watts/M^2 is like really high. Or winds with high intensity relative to super low AoE can freeze things but ones with wide AoE are almost prone to warm things faster than it can cool things. For verse examples where ice is more associated with water rather than wind, I can basically agree, but I still think the wind examples, it more or less is the same process as using lasers or electrical currents.

I personally very rarely see any ice magic that cools things by blowing on them with wind. Superman's freeze breath is the only example I can think of.
I would not categorize Gray Fullbusters Ice Make magic as air cooling based, for example.

For magic that is air cooling based I agree, but not for stuff where someone just freezes things / makes ice appear without any noticeable air current.

I mean, if we will argue that just because it's magic it can be ignored the physics requirements of infinite energy then then we may as well allow KE calculations with ftl speeds just ignoring the infinite energy needed.

No, because we would have no formula for that. We don't know how KE physics would work for something FTL. Newtonian formulas would have no actual legitimacy. So you couldn't use KE calculations for FTL speeds, as you have no KE formula for those feats. The whole infinite energy thing is also more prevalent with KE as the energy is actually what is put into the projectile that is accelerated. It's not just the energy needed to change the KE of an object by a finite degree using a very inefficient real-life physical method of accelerating something.
Meanwhile, you can calculate the energy of a system at absolute zero and hence determine the energy change caused by the technique. You only need to accept that magic can do things via methods a physics-based device can't.

In general magic always violates some aspect of physics. We ignore that if it doesn't directly impact the aspect of it we want to calculate. Ultimately, AZ ignoring entropy considerations doesn't impact a simple energy change calc more than telekinesis ignoring conservation of momentum impacts a telekinesis KE calc, for example.

As far as physics goes, you need either infinite time, energy or infinite control of an infinitely complexity system with quantum physics to delete all the information of particles, so unless the verse specifies that water/ice magic is capable of erasing information or their users have infinite skill controlling quantum particles, which in my experience I would say it isn't the case with most verses, then I don't think it would be valid to calculate their absolute zero feat, and I don't know how the formula used in that third case would be to get a result in joules usable for our purposes. So regardless of the way there is always an infinity at play with absolute zero calculations.

The article you linked assumes methods that are not magic being used. For such techniques, you need infinite complexity. It doesn't apply if you can just magically freeze things in place via oscillation manipulation magic.

And the whole erasing information thing: Information in that regard is not information in the sense of our information manipulation page. The techniques could do that and you wouldn't notice at all. So unless the fiction actually shows that it doesn't do that, I'm inclined to assume that if it says AZ happens, it for now does.

Given, your whole argument regarding information is "it's not real absolute zero" which is a whole different doubt, as that implies that all other effects associated with this hax might not happen as well, not just calculations.

I sincerely think that all verses with an absolute zero feat also have other types of feats to scale and get ap, so I don't understand the fixation with trying to break physics to get a non infinite result to use, if it's for the sake of just get bigger numbers to upgrade to a high tier then let's just also allow ftl KE, I thought the principle that the tiering system and calculations used in the wiki tried to accomplish was as much scientific accuracy as possible but if that's not the case then sure, go ahead I suppose.

As said, all magic breaks physics. If you throw out every calc where the magic at some point of accomplishing something breaks physics, then all magic calcs are invalid.

There is simply no better reason to ignore energy change for magic AZ, than there is to include entropy-caused inefficiency for magic freezing close to AZ.

There is no fixation on getting values of AZ. I literally don't know a single character that does that. It's just that the whole issue sounds a lot like massively overthinking how magic works to me.

 

[DMUA]

I just discovered that on the page for the common feats we actually link a calculation about freezing a person to absolute zero, and we give it a 9-A rating. Now as most of you probably already know, in irl physics it's impossible to reach absolute zero due to needing an infinite amount of energy as per the third law of thermodynamics, so any calculation that uses absolute zero is sincerely non-sensical

Isn't the impossibility more by virtue of the fact heat from it's surroundings would transfer instantly to make it not absolute zero anymore? The calculation itself isn't breaking in the same way Newtonian physics do for things that surpass the speed of light, it's just other factors make it not work out

If you're at least removing the energy for that instant I think it's fine as a calculation as per heat change

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

No, because we would have no formula for that. We don't know how KE physics would work for something FTL. Newtonian formulas would have no actual legitimacy. So you couldn't use KE calculations for FTL speeds, as you have no KE formula for those feats. The whole infinite energy thing is also more prevalent with KE as the energy is actually what is put into the projectile that is accelerated. It's not just the energy needed to change the KE of an object by a finite degree using a very inefficient real-life physical method of accelerating something.
Meanwhile, you can calculate the energy of a system at absolute zero and hence determine the energy change caused by the technique. You only need to accept that magic can do things via methods a physics-based device can't.

KE= 0.5*m*v^2
That's the formula of kinetic energy, so say, in a case where a bullet travels a the speed of light the calculation would be:
KE = 0.5 * 0.03 *299792458^2 = 1,348,132,768,105,226.46 Joules or 322.21 Kilotons of TNT.

So we can get an non infinite result from a ftl KE calculation, but for that we would need to break the relativistic rules of physics, which we don't allow, so then my question is why is that we would willingly ignore and break thermodynamics rules but don't do the same with relativistic rules? That's a double standard.

Also, why would we demand reliability and scientific accuracy to get absolute zero if then we will just ignore the scientific aspect because "much, magic break physics", at that point demanding anything is nothing more than a big hypocrisy.

Again, my proposal is not groundbreaking super change to our standards with absolute zero that significantly affects the current users of the ability, is just to do a small change to the incredibly minuscule niche that are absolute zero calculations in the wiki, as far as I can see this doesn't change the tier at all of most absolute zero users (as neither pokemon, Final Fantasy, Mega Man, Nipponverse, Digimon, Xenoblade, Warframe, Arifureta, etc) or the most famous users of it (Gray Fullbuster, Rukia, Captain Cold pre-crisis only gets one calc removed and that one is a low end so he would actually get upgraded), in fact after investigate it seems that the only 9-A characters with absolute zero are these ones:

• Doomguy
• Iron Man (Marvel Comics)
• Mandarin (Marvel Comics)
• Shujinko (Midway)
• Warlock (Destiny)

And neither of them even uses the absolute zero common feat linked in the op, so this is genuinely a super niche change that makes the wiki more accurate while at practical effects not affecting at all most of the current profiles with said ability.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Isn't the impossibility more by virtue of the fact heat from it's surroundings would transfer instantly to make it not absolute zero anymore? The calculation itself isn't breaking in the same way Newtonian physics do for things that surpass the speed of light, it's just other factors make it not work out

If you're at least removing the energy for that instant I think it's fine as a calculation as per heat change

The vision of absolute zero popularly known as completely stopping the movement of atoms would violate Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, to reach absolute zero temperature without violating it would be needed a zero-point energy system where just the temperature and not the movement reaches zero, otherwise the principle gets violated and from what I can gather that would mean that through the Bose-Einstein condensation of atoms the size of an atom would be infinite, though could be wrong in this part as all of this is very advanced science.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I personally very rarely see any ice magic that cools things by blowing on them with wind. Superman's freeze breath is the only example I can think of.
I would not categorize Gray Fullbusters Ice Make magic as air cooling based, for example.

For magic that is air cooling based I agree, but not for stuff where someone just freezes things / makes ice appear without any noticeable air current.

Pretty much most JRPGs to my knowledge, and especially Fire Emblem definitely treats ice tomes as wind tomes. And it's also clearly shown in their animations; tornado or blizzard followed by a giant ice berg forming really fast. And even IRL, pretty much every storm formation is caused by a collective collision of wind currents.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

https://vsbattles.com/profile-posts/comments/126352/

Got permission from @DarkDragonMedeus on his wall now as those last two posts I deleted wasn’t valid beforehand.

Anyway, I just copy and paste what I say regarding Absolute Zero in quantum physics.

Well, the more theoretical side of physics to being specific.

“The roots of the problem lie in the fact that thermodynamics was formulated in the 19th century for classical objects -- for steam engines, refrigerators or glowing pieces of coal. At that time, people had no idea about quantum theory. If we want to understand the thermodynamics of individual particles, we first have to analyse how thermodynamics and quantum physics interact -- and that is exactly what Marcus Huber and his team did.





We quickly realised that you don't necessarily have to use infinite energy to reach absolute zero," says Marcus Huber. "It is also possible with finite energy -- but then you need an infinitely long time to do it." Up to this point, the considerations are still compatible with classical thermodynamics as we know it from textbooks. But then the team came across an additional detail of crucial importance”



Basically, you need infinite amount of time in order to achieve Absolute Zero or having Infinite energy to achieve it.



They also find another option as described in this article. A third option if you will.



“So you would need infinitely precise control over infinitely many details of the quantum system -- then you could cool a quantum object to absolute zero in finite time with finite energy. In practice, of course, this is just as unattainable as infinitely high energy or infinitely long time.”





It is from here:



Absolute zero in the quantum computer

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

https://vsbattles.com/profile-posts/comments/126352/

Got permission from @DarkDragonMedeus on his wall now as those last two posts I deleted wasn’t valid beforehand.

Anyway, I just copy and paste what I say regarding Absolute Zero in quantum physics.

Well, the more theoretical side of physics to being specific.

“The roots of the problem lie in the fact that thermodynamics was formulated in the 19th century for classical objects -- for steam engines, refrigerators or glowing pieces of coal. At that time, people had no idea about quantum theory. If we want to understand the thermodynamics of individual particles, we first have to analyse how thermodynamics and quantum physics interact -- and that is exactly what Marcus Huber and his team did.





We quickly realised that you don't necessarily have to use infinite energy to reach absolute zero," says Marcus Huber. "It is also possible with finite energy -- but then you need an infinitely long time to do it." Up to this point, the considerations are still compatible with classical thermodynamics as we know it from textbooks. But then the team came across an additional detail of crucial importance”



Basically, you need infinite amount of time in order to achieve Absolute Zero or having Infinite energy to achieve it.



They also find another option as described in this article. A third option if you will.



“So you would need infinitely precise control over infinitely many details of the quantum system -- then you could cool a quantum object to absolute zero in finite time with finite energy. In practice, of course, this is just as unattainable as infinitely high energy or infinitely long time.”





It is from here:



Absolute zero in the quantum computer

... I already said that though? So don't get what it contributes to the current discussion.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

... I already said that though? So don't get what it contributes to the current discussion.

You say that in your own OP regarding Absolute Zero needing infinite energy

in fiction page saying how calculations using absolute zero are not allowed due to needing infinite energy

However, the article I using is saying infinite energy isn’t a strict requirement to get Absolute Zero as it is theoretically possible to reach Absolute Zero with finite energy.

Your argument relies on Absolute Zero needing infinite energy, but in this case, it is stated it is completely impractical to achieve Absolute Zero with or without infinite energy.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

You say that in your own OP regarding Absolute Zero needing infinite energy



However, the article I using is saying infinite energy isn’t a strict requirement to get Absolute Zero as it is theoretically possible to reach Absolute Zero with finite energy.

Your argument relies on Absolute Zero needing infinite energy, but in this case, it is stated it is completely impractical to achieve Absolute Zero with or without infinite energy.

As far as physics goes, you need either infinite time, energy or infinite control of an infinitely complexity system with quantum physics to delete all the information of particles, so unless the verse specifies that water/ice magic is capable of erasing information or their users have infinite skill controlling quantum particles, which in my experience I would say it isn't the case with most verses, then I don't think it would be valid to calculate their absolute zero feat, and I don't know how the formula used in that third case would be to get a result in joules usable for our purposes. So regardless of the way there is always an infinity at play with absolute zero calculations.

This was like 6 posts before you came so like, it was already brought up. Also, as I said, it's not impractical, it's impossible because you need one of three infinities to reach it.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

This was like 6 posts before you came so like, it was already brought up. Also, as I said, it's not impractical, it's impossible because you need one of three infinities to reach it.

That is what Impractical means though. It is impossible to do.


Also while fair enough, two of them involve finite energy, not infinite energy there.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

That is what Impractical means though. It is impossible to do.


Also while fair enough, two of them involve finite energy, not infinite energy there.

I don't think that having an infinite control of an infinitely complex system in a way that allows the erasure of information in a quantum level is less impressive, but regardless of that, I still specified that even going that route I don't know if there exist any formula to calculate the non infinite energy required with that very specific method.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I don't think that having an infinite control of an infinitely complex system in a way that allows the erasure of information in a quantum level is less impressive,

Didn’t say it was less impressive though since it still involves a infinite to use.

Nonetheless, there is a attempt to calculate Absolute Zero via this method.

11.16: Using Charles' Law to Determine Absolute Zero

chem.libretexts.org

Using a different formula, this has been attempted as well.

https://www.carolina.com/teacher-resources/Interactive/gay-lussacs-law-temperature-pressure-relationship-in-gases-determination-absolute-zero/tr10730.tr#:~:text=To%20solve%20for%20the%20value,the%20gas's%20pressure%20equals%20zero.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Didn’t say it was less impressive though since it still involves a infinite to use.

Nonetheless, there is a attempt to calculate Absolute Zero via this method.

11.16: Using Charles' Law to Determine Absolute Zero

chem.libretexts.org

Using a different formula, this has been attempted as well.

https://www.carolina.com/teacher-resources/Interactive/gay-lussacs-law-temperature-pressure-relationship-in-gases-determination-absolute-zero/tr10730.tr#:~:text=To%20solve%20for%20the%20value,the%20gas's%20pressure%20equals%20zero.

???? The first link isn't an attempt to calculate the non-infinite energy needed to reach absolute zero through the specific quantum method I mentioned (as the other methods need either infinite energy or time) but just a calculation to determine the temperature at which absolute zero is reached, which is something we already know since the past century and that I mentioned in the op (-273.15°C/0K), the second link as far I'm understanding is also something completely unrelated to what I asked, so I don't understand why you posted those things.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

???? The first link isn't an attempt to calculate the non-infinite energy needed to reach absolute zero through the specific quantum method I mentioned (as the other methods need either infinite energy or time) but just a calculation to determine the temperature at which absolute zero is reached, which is something we already know since the past century and that I mentioned in the op (-273.15°C/0K), the second link as far I'm understanding is also something completely unrelated to what I asked, so I don't understand why you posted those things

Yeah, but it is mostly due to how it will have minimum to zero kinetic energy in theory essentially making this a logical contradiction.

Well, some sources does have brought up the motion here. https://cs.stanford.edu/people/zjl/pdf/zero.pdf

Effectively making it useless to even measure the kinetic energy due to how little kinetic energy will been been used here which only left is potential energy I think

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Yeah, but it is mostly due to how it will have minimum to zero kinetic energy in theory essentially making this a logical contradiction.

Well, some sources does have brought up the motion here. https://cs.stanford.edu/people/zjl/pdf/zero.pdf

Effectively making it useless to even measure the kinetic energy due to how little kinetic energy will been been used here which only left is potential energy I think

I'm not following you. I asked for a formula to calculate the non-infinite energy needed to froze something to absolute zero through the quantum physics option of having infinite control of an infinitely complex system, to which you posted a link of a calculation that
experimentally determinated the value of absolute zero using a known law to demonstrate that absolute zero is around the -273°C (as the author himself how he has a 1% deviation in the result from the known number, which under the acceptable margin of error of calculations), then the second link you send was also about something unrelated to my question, so I expressed my complete confusion with the point of bringing that unrelated stuff with the discussion at hand, and then you answer me back with something that doesn't follow the flow of the discussion or seem to answer my question, so I genuinely don't understand what is even the argument you are trying to make at this moment.

To reiterate, there are three ways to get absolute zero with science, one if with infinite energy, the other infinite time, and the last through quantum physics with an infinite control of an infinitely complex system that allows the erasure of quantum particles information, the first two way give an infinite result if calculated so there is no point in them, the last one doesn't necessarily need infinite energy or time to accomplish so it could be theoretically possible to calculate the finite energy used to freeze something to absolute zero through this third method but I don't know if there currently even exist any formula for that, so unless you can bring formula for that I would ask you to not post furthermore.


Also, to note once again, currently the majority of profiles with the ability absolute zero don't seem to actually use absolute zero calculations to reach their tier, and in fact from the 9-A characters that have absolute zero no one seems to even use the calculation in the op, the one in the common feats page, as part of their ap justification. So, in light of how minuscule the number of absolute zero calculations are there, and how little relevance they actually have in the tiering of the absolute zero users, I propose to ban the usage of absolute zero calculations altogether to make the wiki more accurate, as in physics is impossible to calculate that without the use of infinities.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I'm not following you. I asked for a formula to calculate the non-infinite energy needed to froze something to absolute zero through the quantum physics option of having infinite control of an infinitely complex system, to which you posted a link of a calculation

Seems like I misunderstood your points. My apologies.

The formula that was being considered in this link as I provided a screenshot here.





This was taken in consideration for absolute zero

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Seems like I misunderstood your points. My apologies.

The formula that was being considered in this link as I provided a screenshot here.





This was taken in consideration for absolute zero

That formula doesn't seem to solve the problem though, as the thing is only showing what the internal energy of an atom is once it has already reached absolute zero and how it needs to be isolated to remain in said state, it doesn't show a way to calculate the energy needed to reach the absolute zero without spending infinite energy/time like the third law of thermodynamics says or how quantum physics states that you need infinity complexity and control.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

That formula doesn't seem to solve the problem though, as the thing is only showing what the internal energy of an atom is once it has already reached absolute zero and how it needs to be isolated to remain in said state, it doesn't show a way to calculate the energy needed to reach the absolute zero without spending infinite energy/time like the third law of thermodynamics says or how quantum physics states that you need infinity complexity and control.

Then there is nothing more to say then as outside of specific formulas and the example being stated, we kinda have to accept the kinetic energy to being completely minimal as it is being argued at the lowest point possible since it also kinda relates to lowest potential energy as I even doubt it will actually reach 9A to say the least.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that @DontTalkDT makes sense above. What currently needs to be done here?

 

[DontTalkDT]

KE= 0.5*m*v^2
That's the formula of kinetic energy, so say, in a case where a bullet travels a the speed of light the calculation would be:
KE = 0.5 * 0.03 *299792458^2 = 1,348,132,768,105,226.46 Joules or 322.21 Kilotons of TNT.

So we can get an non infinite result from a ftl KE calculation, but for that we would need to break the relativistic rules of physics, which we don't allow, so then my question is why is that we would willingly ignore and break thermodynamics rules but don't do the same with relativistic rules? That's a double standard.

No, 0.5*m*v^2 is not and never was the formula for kinetic energy. It is merely an approximation of the formula for kinetic energy which is approximately true for low speeds and which humanity mistakenly thought for some time was the correct formula. The only actual formula for kinetic energy is (y-1)mc^2 where y is the relativistic gamma (or equivalent formulations... and possibly a new one some day due to quantum mechanics).

Also, why would we demand reliability and scientific accuracy to get absolute zero if then we will just ignore the scientific aspect because "much, magic break physics", at that point demanding anything is nothing more than a big hypocrisy.

We demand nothing beyond a reliable statement and no blatant contradiction.
As for why we don't want blatant contradiction: If your version of AZ doesn't behave like AZ when it's there, then we can't assume that it has properties that AZ should have.
I.e. it's the difference between "we use magic to get the end product and from that we can predict what it is like as there is no magic once it exists" and "the end product is a magical thing that doesn't behave like what we assumed it is".
Just like how we can calculate a fireball, as we assume heat behaves as usual once it's there, while ignoring the psychic esper power that made that fireball and its heat energy exist to begin with by a process that breaks physics in four dozen ways.

Again, my proposal is not groundbreaking super change to our standards with absolute zero that significantly affects the current users of the ability, is just to do a small change to the incredibly minuscule niche that are absolute zero calculations in the wiki, as far as I can see this doesn't change the tier at all of most absolute zero users (as neither pokemon, Final Fantasy, Mega Man, Nipponverse, Digimon, Xenoblade, Warframe, Arifureta, etc) or the most famous users of it (Gray Fullbuster, Rukia, Captain Cold pre-crisis only gets one calc removed and that one is a low end so he would actually get upgraded), in fact after investigate it seems that the only 9-A characters with absolute zero are these ones:

And neither of them even uses the absolute zero common feat linked in the op, so this is genuinely a super niche change that makes the wiki more accurate while at practical effects not affecting at all most of the current profiles with said ability.

Yeah, but since your reasoning relies on discarding feats for the process involved breaking physics I'm against doing that, as the same line of reasoning should apply to other things. Being more efficient than entropy allows is just not the one holy grail of physics breaking processes that invalidates feats if it happens, when we allow violation of conservation of momentum, energy, Boltzmann laws and whatever else while evaluating feats. (provided they don't directly impact the way we assume the process of the feat works)

I think that @DontTalkDT makes sense above. What currently needs to be done here?

As far as I am concerned, the only addition required is a note on the AZ page that AZ feats are not calculatable if accomplished via a physics (or specifically entropy) abiding process.