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About Tier 10 Durability

Arigarmy

Arigarmy

1,855
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Outside of 10-C, why does it exactly exist? Wouldn't having 10-B or 10-A durability mean that a Baseball bat or a bullet would completely obliterate my body if it hit me?

Wouldn't it make more sense for normal humans to have 9-C durability? If we're capable of taking the force of a bat, or a bullet from a glock, or a full punch from Mike Tyson (going by 1987 Little Mac anyway), wouldn't that justify someone like me to have that level of durability?

It seems a bit silly that 10-B durability implies I can't take a hit from an oar (paddle). Or maybe I just don't get it.
 
Already talked this over in PMs with him. Full support.

Even I have "Street level" durability via running into a wall at a brisk jogging pace.
 
This makes sense, sometimes I feel we look too deep into "the math" and stuff, and just need to use common logic. Human level durability is 10-A to 9-C usually, and we should ignore "10-B" durability, which is no more of an appendix to the system.
 
10-A seems more appropriate. Most human bones would break when hit by baseball bat at 9-C level full force. A hit to the head is likely to kill him; a non-armored human should dodge it rather than attempt to tank it.

Same with bullets.

Giving armored humans 9-C seems better, such as wearing bullet-proof armor or conventional armor that gives resistance to street level bullets and baseball bats and sharp things. The majority of unarmed and unarmored humans should be Tier 10.
 
Well, we still need to distinguish between regular, athletic, and peak human/low superhuman physical capacity, and making exceptions for durability would look very strange.

I am also in no mood for initiating a project that would get rid of most of an entire tier, which would leave the wiki far more confusing to visitors, and give us no practical benefits.

I would appreciate if we could drop this subject. Thank you.
 
tbf "a bullet" was a bad example

A better one would be "surviving a car running into you at two-n-a-half miles an hour"
 
Ant, I wasn't trying to remove a tier my guy, this is more an upgrade than removing a tier. In Attack Potency, Tier 10 is still very important for all aspects. 10-C is also very important for both AP and Durability.

What I was talking about coincides more with just 10-B on Durability. I'm not removing the entire tier, that'd be confusing and unnecessary.
 
Ari is basically just asking to bump characters who have 10-B dura to 9-C dura since nearly all humans can survive that. That's it.

EDIT: If you're worried about workload me and Ari alone could likely do it fairly quickly.
 
In real life the conditions of the hurting matter almost as much as the blow itself. I.e, if you are hit directly on your head, your torso, your leg, etc. Also the conditions you are left in.
 
@Arigarmy

Well, if we do so, we would essentially be saying that an out of shape 10-B human would be able to withstand blows from Mike Tyson and Karelin at their peaks without any trouble.

As Matthew mentioned, in real life surviving attacks depends on where they strike, how sharp they are, etcetera, but our system is not advanced enough to accommodate for that, and even if it was, we would not be able to gain sufficient information from the fictions in order to apply it.
 
Actually, you can definitely one-shot a human being with an athlete's punch. It entirely depends on where you hit.

I can demonstrate it right nao by punching any one of you while you stand stil- no, just kidding! : P

Boxers do wear gloves to avoid gravely injuring the person he's punching, however.
 
Well, for convenience we still have to distinguish between characters with average and maximum human attack potency, and their abilities to withstand proportionate blunt impacts to the ones that they dish out.
 
Also, the gap between the energy you release by living every second (100 joules) and the most energetic punch ever recorded by a human is only 10+ times or so. The gap between the weakest and strongest humans on earth is simply far too small for barely surviving an attack to count as higher durability.

If your character barely survives a City level attack, the gap between the lowest and highest end of that tier is high enough that you can still have City level durability depending on the result.

Surviving a car crash doesn't give you 9-C durability, because you will either almost surely get bones broken, be knocked unconscious, have to be taken to the hospital or all three.

And durability generally ranks characters by the energy in which they are hurt, not by the energy necessary to almost kill them.
 
Take the skull of a regular human and the skull of Mike Tyson in his prime. Apply a 500 J punch to both and you'll find both take it just about as well.

The reason Mike Tyson would "take the hit" better is because he has a higher pain tolerance and his neck muscles reduce the chance of him being KO'd. However, in terms of the amount of damage done both the regular Joe and Mike will be about the same. You can't really "train" durability all that much, humans are stuck with the tensile strengths they have.

I mean, I guess putting on a lot of muscle will dampen the force. But so would getting really damn fat. But the fat man clearly isn't the equal of Mike Tyson in every stat.

We could possibly clarify on the dura page that most humans are only 9-C in blunt force durability?
 
So you basically suggest that we merge tiers 10-B and 10-A? I technically agree that the difference is very small compared to other tiers, but it would still look strange for visitors to not make a distinction between highly trained and out of shape individuals, and we follow the convention of A-B-C sub-categories for all other tiers.
 
No, because while I can run with Athlete level AP I definitely can't punch that hard (I think) so listing me as "10-A" would be kinda dishonest.

All we're doing here is asking to change 10-B/10-A people's durability to 10-A/9-C durability and that's all. Maybe adding a note on the durability page explaining why. Nothing about changing their AP or what-not.
 
@LordXcano Okay. Well, I suppose that may make sense, as long as an explanation note is included in the durability page. It would require quite a lot of editing however.
 
It would give us the chance to add that tier for small critters and make 10-B into the tier for children, handicapped, and the elderly, but this may have already been solved.
 
I'm with Matt in this one. IRL, a baseball bat strike will really hurt me, but because how energy distribution works with blunt objects (Impact over a large area) coupled with the fact that it entirely depends on where you get hit, it makes no sense to me upgrading people's durability to 10-A against blunt attacks.

EDIT: Not really making "no sense", but it isn't a good enough reason.
 
I suppose that is a good point as well. It would likely also be confusing for visitors.
 
I don't think it's "most" humans, I think it's only in some cases. Most people are quite easy to knock out with a kick to the head.
 
If you get hit by a baseball bat in the head you can die or be put in a coma. If you get hit in the belly it will really hurt but you'll definitely survive.
 
Well, our system is admittedly flawed, but turning the structure inconsistent in certain parts of it may be a bad idea.
 
The system is mostly based on fictional durability which is almost never as in-depth. And it is also simple for practical reasons.
 
Yes. Agreed. With apologies to Arigarmy and LordXcano, it is probably best to keep it as it is.
 
I'm with Matt on this one. The difference is that we run on real life durability, which is different from the fictional one.
 
Too technical. I could use personal experience as to why a baseball bat isn't garunteed to break your bones but I'd rather not. Real life human durability is marvelous. Many factors come into play. In fiction it's more easily and simply defined.
 
I also think that the concept of humans are a little misunterpreted here: they can survive street and wall level attacks, is true that can be knocked of even killed if they are stroke in a head, but several of our characters here weren't stroke in the head and still have that ranking; humans can also survive point black explosions around 9-C (at least the shock wave); they also possesses a natural power boost called adrenalina, making them stronger but nothing above human levels.
 
I was the one that proposed the values for Tier 10 having in my mind how much energy a punch can have.So let me explain a few things.

What most people don't realize is that the world isn't as simple as saying 1000 J will definitelly kill you.

There a lot of factors that affect what you can survive/tank and what not.(factors that unfortunately our system can't cover)

-Energy "density": aka how the energy is spreaded over an area, for example a guy running towards you can have the same KE as a bullet but the bullet can deal much more damage because the energy is delivered in a much smaller area.

-As Matt said the place you got hit also plays an important role on wether something can be lethal or not.
 
Agreed, but I think that it is very impractical to start messing with our system because of it.
 
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