About battles with speed equalized

[Yojimbo1989]

Right, so after yet another matchup rubbed me the wrong way I decided something needed to be said. Ok, so recently it seems that there was a complaint about speed stomp battles and as a result there has now been a rule about not creating battles of the sort. Consequently, there has been a dramatic increase in the number of battles where speed is equalized.

However in trying to solve one problem an even bigger evil has been created, namely that battles with speed equalized are now being added to victory and losses pages. This is completely ridiculous and just plain wrong for the following reasons

1 - It's completely meaningless for one character to beat another when speed is equalzied since A - Beating an opponent at anything other than their best is meaningless. If one fighter fought another while one had both their hands tied or some other kind of handicap would anyone accept or be happy with that? B - By typing out that speed is equalized you are letting the world know who would really win an actual confrontation thereby again making the whole match-up pointless

2 - Several of these matchups are even more unfair than speed stomps since they end up placing a character vastly more haxed than the other against another, which is just as bad as a speed stomp if not more so, since you are robbing one character of a trait that would be incredible useful in the fight

3 - Some characters depend on speed to win, so if you take that away you are completely rob any chance they have in any matchup, since placing a character several tiers above another counts as a stomp. As the whole point of introducing the rule about speed stomps was to make things more fair this completely defeats the whole point of the rule.

For those who are still unhappy about speed-stomp matchups, I propose a new rule about matups with speed equalized that should appease both parties

Matchups with speed equalized should be added to victories/losses of profile pages IF and ony IF the outcome is the same either way, whether the victor of the battle is the same whether speed is equalized or not.

Any battles with speed equalized where the speed equalized part was vital to a certain victory should also be removed effective immediately

 

[Jucaslucas]

I agree with this.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I agree with this

 

[Reppuzan]

I'm not entirely on board with this.

The whole point of having speed equalized is to create matchups where things are relatively even on both sides to create an actual debate rather than "lolz Character A blitzes". Yes, this gets abused, but if we don't have this then the number of matches we can have between characters as we approach the higher tiers will dry up, leading to very boring debates since no one will want to bother with a speed equalized match if it's not going to be added.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

^I 100% agree

 

[Notadeadguy]

You just gotta use speed equalizing responsibly, I put threads with Speed Equalized because it makes things more interesting. Because what's the point of a fight if you're just gonna blitz.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

exactly. If it is someone who is faster by a small margin it shouldn't really matter. So Speed equalized should only be used when the speed difference is high enough for a speedstomp.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

This seems to ignore that some matches use characters who have unknown/not completely defined speeds, and thus equalizing speed is necessary if the match is to be done, at all.

 

[Jucaslucas]

Well, you can make the fight for discussion, but putting in the profiles as a victory while the opponent is nerfed is rather pointless.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

^I disagree. Speed Equalized matches usually makes a fight more fair and imo more worthy of being added to profiles. Like I said battles with speed stomps seem imo irrelevant as there is no thought into those battles. And if we think about how fictional in universe fights are with people on the same level of power. Speedstomps are almost non-existent.

 

[Jucaslucas]

If you have to nerf a character to make a fight fair, you shouldn't put it as a loss for them.

Like, Superman vs Thor. Supes would blitz the hell out of him, but if you equalize speed, he'll most likely loose.

Is that fair for Superman to have one of his most important atributes downgrade so that Thortoise can keep up?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

it isn't like taking all their hax away, it is just speed...

 

[Jucaslucas]

Speed is an extremely important power to lots of character's powersets.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

However speed stomp matches aren't added anyway plus it the files it is stated that speed was equalized...

 

[Cropfist]

I disagree with this due to above reasons.

 

[Dekoshu]

May I remind people that in realistic situation, speed also enhances their physical blows. Speed equalization isn't enough when somebody exceeds the concepts of speed. For example, you cannot equalize Flash's speed with an omnipresent deity who is also beyond dimensional, such as Yog-Sothoth.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Same as Crop. Otherwise, someone like Seiya or omnipresent beings would never lose.

 

[Dekoshu]

There's also more. Some beings can already equalize speed without this rule.

 

[AllanSaiyan]

Yea Speed is important, let say character A is alot faster than Character B but Character B is full of haxs and Character A is just raw power, what would happen if you equalized speed for both Characters? exactly Character B will come out the victor of the match because Charactor A has no haxs just raw power and with his only asset of winning gone which is his speed, he will lose the battle. Kinda unfair for Character A but yea Speed-stomp should be considered as well just wanted to state my opinion on the matter and i agree with OP.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I agree with Reppuzan and Notadeadguy. I've seen some speed equalized threads that were obvious stomp threads (a city character who solo'd most of DBZ due to equalized speed + Great BFR), but most threads that use it are fine.

Sometimes, its really hard to find matches for some characters. Like Madaso from DQVs best speed feat is only MHS+ despite being Low 2-C. In a tier with several omnipresent, immeasurable, Infinite or at least FTL characters, MHS+ simply doesn't cut it.

 

[The_Everlasting]

a city character who solo'd most of DBZ due to equalized speed + Great BFR

Which character?

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

a city character who solo'd most of DBZ due to equalized speed + Great BFR

Which character?

Neko Kuroha, apparently. Most of her losses were removed, but this is an old version which had most of them.

 

[Dekoshu]

Unlike the others here, I am going to think with complexity that if they are allowed to fight with their actual speed, and in more realistic fights (no unconventional equal rules), it's beyond unfair: it's irrational, self-destructive, and rather foolish. And unlike the others, I know they would have to literally rely on making them trip or other mundane solutions, not just using their superhuman abilities (seeing and understanding logic, one would use their own speed against them by tripping, traps (bear traps, claymore mines) But only if they didn't see it occuring.

 

[Strmi]

I agree with op

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Reppuzan and Azathoth. The problem with not allowing equalised speeds, is that we would likely end up with no matchups whatsoever that would not be stomps, or based on unknown speed statistics, if we do not allow them.

Mind you, I am largely uninterested in versus threads. I see this as a statistics indexing site first, and a versus site as a distant second, but nevertheless, we end up risking to not allow any versus threads whatsoever, if we make the matchup rules too strict.

 

[Yojimbo1989]

So allow me to add my thought to what people have said. People are saying that speed equalized are done to make fights more fair other than just saying that "lol character A blitzes", but taking away their speed and then adding it to the match-up screens is just as bad because you're then literally saying "oh really character A would win, but because people don't like speed stomps we're giving it to character B". It seems to be be showing preference to one class of characters by allowing one type of battle to be added to the matchup pages, but not another. If you want to make a versus thread with speed equalized for discussion then fine, but don't add it to the match-up page

Also if people are worried about very boring debates, well surely that is a good thing? Since I was under the impression that this site liked to avoid controversy?

Plus this wouldn't make for boring debates, it would simply make the members of this site think harder about creating match-ups, which would lead to more interesting debates.

I understand what people are saying about characters where speed is unknown, maybe then we can allow speed to be equalized

 

[Notadeadguy]

So allow me to add my thought to what people have said. People are saying that speed equalized are done to make fights more fair other than just saying that "lol character A blitzes", but taking away their speed and then adding it to the match-up screens is just as bad because you're then literally saying "oh really character A would win, but because people don't like speed stomps we're giving it to character B". It seems to be be showing preference to one class of characters by allowing one type of battle to be added to the matchup pages, but not another. If you want to make a versus thread with speed equalized for discussion then fine, but don't add it to the match-up page

Also if people are worried about very boring debates, well surely that is a good thing? Since I was under the impression that this site liked to avoid controversy?

Plus this wouldn't make for boring debates, it would simply make the members of this site think harder about creating match-ups, which would lead to more interesting debates.

I understand what people are saying about characters where speed is unknown, maybe then we can allow speed to be equalized

It wouldn't make things interesting, it make things more difficult to make threads.

 

[Reppuzan]

Plus this wouldn't make for boring debates, it would simply make the members of this site think harder about creating match-ups, which would lead to more interesting debates.

Try making a debate for any character above planet level that isn't canon that is fair and not decided by hax or speed. Try it.

 

[Yojimbo1989]

Like I've said it wouid just make people think a bit harder about creating certain match-ups.

 

[Yojimbo1989]

Plus this wouldn't make for boring debates, it would simply make the members of this site think harder about creating match-ups, which would lead to more interesting debates.

Try making a debate for any character above planet level that isn't canon that is fair and not decided by hax or speed. Try it.

Challenge accepted

 

[Notadeadguy]

Like I've said it wouid just make people think a bit harder about creating certain match-ups.

And thus you take away the fun. Why can't you see that?

 

[Yojimbo1989]

There is no fun in placing a nerfed character against someone that isn't nerfed, why can't you see that?

 

[Yojimbo1989]

Plus this wouldn't make for boring debates, it would simply make the members of this site think harder about creating match-ups, which would lead to more interesting debates.

Try making a debate for any character above planet level that isn't canon that is fair and not decided by hax or speed. Try it.

Actually, I've looked at the past posts I've done and I made one that fits this criteria perfectly. Unicron vs Tengen Toppa Gurenn Lagann (the 3-B versions)

 

[Notadeadguy]

I only do it when necessary. If I don't, then the thread would just be torned down. Plus with speed being equalized, then people would be forced to use their heads on how the other character would win.

So if I must sacrifice speed for an interesting match. I'll do it. It's not like I'm equalizing all their stats, that would be overkill.

Plus If you don't nerf everyone, There would be less people in the threads anyway. Take it from me who has experience in making the threads you want to put up. It's usually never successful.

 

[Reppuzan]

Actually, I've looked at the past posts I've done and I made one that fits this criteria perfectly. Unicron vs Tengen Toppa Gurenn Lagann (the 3-B versions)

You do realize that Lagann blitzes horribly right?

 

[NotEvenHuman]

I agree with Azzy and Reppuzan. Banning threads with speed equalized would reduce the amount of possible fights much more than it would make fights unfair. Speed is the most inconsistent stat on the wiki. We have the Metal Gear Rising cast, everyone is Small Town level and freaking MHS+. Raiden can go up to Sub-Relativistic with Blade Mode. Try making a fair fight for these guys without equalizing speed.

Then we have characters like Anai Miu, who despite being only Wall level, can go up to MFTL+.

Then there's the Hulk. Can go up to Star level..... But is only MHS.

The Overlord Top Tiers are at least Island level, but their speed is only Supersonic.

Most of the Fairy Tail High Tiers are City level, but they are only Hypersonic+.

Planet level characters can go from MHS+ to FTL+. Some are even MFTL+. This also applies to all characters above Planet level, btw. MFTL+ characters can be more than billions of times faster than each other.

Finding fights for these guys is very hard without equalizing speed. There's still fun in discussing which character has the better hax, AP, Durability, moveset, skill, intelligence, stamina, and how all of that would interact with the opponent's own abilities, but that's all useless if one of the characters is way faster, because he just blitzes the other to death.

But if you equalize speed, finding opponents for all of the characters i mentioned above becomes MUCH easier. The Metal Gear cast can go up against some FT people, for example. Planet level characters can fight each other. Hulk can fight other Star level characters. Anai Miu can actually fight someone, because there's not a single character with the same stats as her.

Equalizing speed helps, a LOT.

 

[Yojimbo1989]

I'm not against threads where speed is equalized I'm against adding victories and losses where speed is equalized, it just seems totally redundant because of what you've said.

 

[Notadeadguy]

I'm not against threads where speed is equalized I'm against adding victories and losses where speed is equalized, it just seems totally redundant because of what you've said.

Then just ignore them, is that too hard?

 

[Reppuzan]

I'm not against threads where speed is equalized I'm against adding victories and losses where speed is equalized, it just seems totally redundant because of what you've said.

The problem with this logic is that people create fights to see who wins, and by not adding them you're taking all the incentive out of making the match in the first place.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Agreed with Reppuzan. I don't think it's a issue whatsoever, let's all just relax abit and have fun with the site, yeah?

Don't want to restrict every little thing. it will take the fun out of the site for people.