A thing about some versus rules

[The_real_cal_howard]

Versus as in the board, not the site (well, technically, if it's a thing with a board of the site, it's a thing with the site)

But I digress

One thing that always kinda got on my nerves were the restrictions in versus matches. Or to be more specific, restricting things of versus matches. The following rules are what I'm talking about:

"Although versus threads involving more than two characters are allowed for the sake of entertainment, they are not allowed to be added to any profiles, as they tend to be misleading."

Firstly, that's blatantly false. The fact that they're misleading, I mean. I honestly have no idea what it even means? If say, Goku and Vegeta as a team have a win against like, Seiya (bear with me, it's just an example), it has no chance of being misleading. It simply means that Goku + Vegeta > Seiya in more scenarios than not. It's no more misleading than speed equalized matches. If anything, it's less so.

"It is not encouraged to create versus threads featuring more than one round, as they are too complicated for summarizing the results to the respective character profiles in a simple manner."

This one is less nonsensical (for lack of a better word) than the other. For example, a match where one character wins one round and the other wins the other round. Of course, rounds where a character wins regardless should be added, and there's no reason why it shouldn't. For the former, there's easier solutions. Simply add the round that generates the most discussion.

"It is fine to restrict abilities in a versus matchup. However, matches that are arranged this way should not be added to the character profiles, as they don't involve their full potential, and are only intended for casual entertainment. An exception would be if the restricted ability/technique has a separate tier from the main one. In this case the match can be added."

I was always against this one from the start. Idk why I didn't contest this when it was proposed. The "full potential" argument is stupid. Like, it's not okay to restrict Medaka from using All-Fiction, but it's okay to restrict Goku from going Super Saiyan. Or, a more nonsensical example, restricting Super Saiyan is okay because it traverses tiers, but restricting Kaio Ken isn't. Goku staying in base isn't at his full potential after all. Now I've heard the argument that it practically neuters the character who's being restricted, and makes virtually a different character. That's also just as nonsensical. Firstly, nine times out of ten, the hax ability being restricted (and let's face it, it's always hax) is rarely the determining factor in a fight in their respective canon. If someone took Hypno, are they really telling me that if someone restricted his mindhax, it's pretty much no longer Hypno? Or Seadramon without absolute zero is pretty much a different character? Or that they wouldn't be at their full potential (For the latter, "full potential" means 3-C, just saying)? For both of those beings, we know for a fact that they quite often enter fights where they don't mindhax or their ice doesn't freeze on an atomic level. Take Mega Man X. Restrict Dark Hold? He still has dozens of options, some that he's more likely to use than Dark Hold in the first place. Now, there are cases where this is true. That would be people like Professor X. Also, restricting abilities like Fire Manipulation is stupid. Not claiming that's the case for people, but it's bound to be brought up. But disallowing restrictions of abilities for the sake of adding matches onto profiles doesn't make sense.

Sorry if this offended anyone. Not my intent.

 

[Antvasima]

Point 1: They are recurrently misleading because you could team up a weaker character with a stronger character in order to win.

Point 2: I think that this is to keep characters that keep reviving themselves from any damage to simply outlast their opponents.

Point 3: I think that this is mainly to make it easier to find matchups for characters that have one ability that is much more powerful than their regular physical statistics, but you may be correct in that the rule needs to be modified.

No offence taken.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Firstly, I'm glad that you didn't take offense to this.

Point 1. You could say the same thing about equalizing speed, or bloodlusting. A bloodlusted Mewtwo with speed equal solos Dragon Ball, when in reality, he gets blitzed by Raditz. Plus, that's no reason to ban them, as the pros well outweigh the cons. And it's quite obvious to find when it's being abused, like if there's a match to get Batman a win against UI Goku by teaming him up with the Dream Devourer. It's much more likely to see a match with Mew and Mewtwo, or Goku and Vegeta, or Megaman and Bass on a team.

Point 2: I'm afraid I don't understand.

Point 3: If anything, it makes matches harder to find. Seadramon would have a ton of opponents, but because his main attacks have an ABZ side effect, he becomes almost impossible to find a match for. Not to mention beings like Medaka or Yhwach.

 

[Kaltias]

2 is because a character could win a round and lose the other, also because keeping tracks of the votes becomes a mess due to the FRAs (not kidding)

3 Using the character who started it all. Homulilly. You put her against an opponent, and restrict her mind hax.

Said opponent wins.

Now what? The opponent gets a victory only because you nerfed her, and took away her signature power.

What's the point then?

 

[Kaltias]

Alternatively, is a match where 682 isn't allowed to evolve an actual 682 match?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

2: I understand. I brought up that point in the OP after all.

3: Firstly, if Homulilly's the sole reason for that rule, that's (no offense) bad on our part, and probably increased my spite for her. Secondly, if what you said about witches is true, her main power should still be time manipulation. Thirdly, so what? That's no different than speed equalizing Goku. As I said above, take away Hypno's mind hax, which is a much bigger part of its character than mindhax is for Homu, and you'd still have a very fair match with other High 6-Cs.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Alternatively, is a match where 682 isn't allowed to evolve an actual 682 match?

Then it would probably be a stomp/spite match anyway and would be closed.

 

[Kaltias]

She isn't. She is only the one who indirectly started the discussion.

Main power? It's absolutely mind manipulation, but I get that you mean "she has other stuff as well"

Yeah, the difference is that speed equal is supposed to be the exception to the rule. You restrict Hypno's mind manipulation, but why you should restrict it is the question.

If it's because it isn't fair, use someone else. I want to put the Hunter from EtG vs Isaac from TBOI, but I can't because it's a haxstomp. Peace, I move on

 

[Kaltias]

I mean she is Isaac, but 8-C+, has all his good powers, and them some

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I know we're not supposed to bring the OBD up, but they're able to have matches where the only thing allowed is a specific ability (they have Virgo Shaka vs Professor X in solely a mental battle). We are so restrictive that we have the total opposite.

 

[Wokistan]

I disagree with restricting abilities and stuff as much as possible, to the point of generally not liking to equalize speed or even tier jumps. Vehemently disagree with 3, as if the restricted ability doesn't make a difference, it didn't need to be restricted in the first place, whereas if it does and causes a loss, especially with one trick pony characters, it seems kinda unfair to give a character a loss due to OP not liking their ability. While this would clear up issues with the characters that are basically tier 1 smurfs (1440, Jill Presto, 4A GEOM, etc) most of the most truly problematic abilities (higher D regen, speed) are already allowed to be removed. Sometimes, a character will just beat another. The solution isn't to try to nerf them, just find a character who can deal with that ability or just don't use them if that's too hard.

 

[Antvasima]

1) I remain firmly opposed against this. It would turn matchups both messy and meaningless to feature in the win or loss sections of our character profiles.

2) Characters that have very high Regenerationn and stamina would eventually outlast their opponents if matchups were sustained for an unreasonable amount of time.

3) After reading Kaltias' response, I think that it seems inappropriate to mess with this regulation as well.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

1) How would it be meaningless, or messy? Not that many matches get added in the first place.

 

[Wokistan]

1 would result in stupid things like people teaming the monarch of pointland or something with for example one of the endless or something just to get characters wins against people far above their pay grade on their profile. It would become even more confusing than it already is to ascertain how characters stand in relation to one another, as not only are there equalizations and restrictions but now a character could have a win on their page against someone they have no business fighting due to an OP team member. Also, trying to debate how people teamwork and stuff would surely cause more of a hassle than its worth just to allow a niche idea. People can make threads like these on fun and games if they want as is, but having those being allowed to be added would be nothing but problematic.

 

[Walking_Strawman]

I do feel like certain abilities should be allowed to be restricted and still added to profiles. But it should be a case by case basis. Like, you can't just go and say that Ace can't use his Fire Logia powers. But I think that certain abilities should be allowed to be turned off, if they essentially change the nature of the fight completely. But it should be specific character with a specific ability only, and a thread should be made asking for a note to be added that said ability is allowed to be restricted

Like, we allow The Hero to be restricted for Medaka. Cuz the vary nature of The Hero is that its bullshit and she will win unless you can counter it, nothing else would matter.

I think that something like Cthulhu's higher dimensional manipulation should be allowed to be restricted. Or if some character has toon force on top of actual serious fighting moments and abilities, then said toon force should be allowed to be restricted

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I've already pointed out how obvious that would be and any staff with sense would close that right away.

 

[Antvasima]

As Wokistan mentioned, it would turn matchup results meaningless and confusing due to that a large number of them would have very unevenly selected participants, and it would also likely turn the text in the profiles structured in a messy manner, due to too many variables to list within them.

 

[Antvasima]

I would prefer if we close this thread, as I am currently being swarmed with notifications from different discussions, and it will not lead anywhere.

 

[RRTheEndMan]

1 can just you know, have rules?

 

[TripleSHunter]

For 1, you could just create some simple rules to keep it from being stupid. You could only allow characters in the same tier to team up, or only allow characters to team up if they're in the same universe and would do so in-character. Or both.

This is something kind of lacking for specific types of characters, like magical girls. In Precure the protagonists often have group attacks that are planet-busting by the end, yet their AP is much lower solo. Since they always fight as a group anyway, allowing group matches like that would improve the wiki imo.