A bit of confusion regarding Summoners

[SomebodyData]

Hello, I've heard that apparently summoners are considered "outside" a match, think like Pokemon trainers for example. I just want to know its true, to make sure since the idea seems borderline unbalanced (Ignoring in-character or even attack mechanics altogether) and thus might require a CRT.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Seems like that's how we treat it for non-combatant people like Pokémon trainers. Normal characters who can just summon stuff are still targets though.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I think there's kind of a blurry line on where that begins and ends though.

 

[Kaltias]

You mean stuff like "you can't kill Ash directly instead of killing his Pokémon"?

I believe that it became a rule a while ago

 

[SomebodyData]

Huh, that's... er selective? Not sure what to call it respectfully.

Thanks for replying you guys.

 

[Kaltias]

I think that the line between "non-target" and "target" is supposed to be "X has a team that fights on his behalf and can't do that on his own" and "X has summons comparable to himself that help during the fight"

 

[SomebodyData]

That kinda makes sense, though with some characters like Yugi Muto for example, seem to put that rule in pretty blurry waters.

In addition, the target rule sounds like it alters in character actions and ability/attack mechanics. So is there any more details about the rule we should know?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Well, that line just got more blurred

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

What does Yugi do? Like, how do fights work in his series? Do he just sends creatures to fight his opponent's creatures, or do he actually attack his opponents?

 

[SomebodyData]

Generally creatures, though he gets involved from time to time.

And ironically, even some Pkmn trainers get involved (Like best boi for example, really most of Pokemon Adv), so this seems its exclusivity is understated.

And like I said above, this goes against the personalities and attack mechanics of a significant chunk of the characters in the wiki.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

His involvement is usually magic cards though

 

[YungManzi]

I've always wondered how we treat yugioh characters on vs battles...like...do they have access to spell and trap cards along with acess to their entire deck of monsters along with effects?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

The problem is that doing otherwise means that most fight would end up with the trainer getting killed by things that are millions of times stronger and faster than them when this is not how fights go down at all in their series, even though it is possible.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I've always wondered how we treat yugioh characters on vs battles...like...do they have access to spell and trap cards along with acess to their entire deck of monsters along with effects?

Depends on the series

 

[YungManzi]

@Yobo

Why is that?

 

[SomebodyData]

@Yung depends on the yu-Gi-Oh series.

@Saik I understand that, but the ruling inheritly makes the matches borderline fan fiction, with it needing to ignore how some abilities work and the personalities of characters, even on the summoner's side.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

@Yobo

Why is that?

Different series have different showings

 

[Kaltias]

I mean if we want to be technical, the reason why fights don't go this way in something like Pokemon is because no one ever is in a fight to the death, because Pokemon battles are a sport.

It seems kinda weird to force someone to follow the rules, when they are actually fighting going for the kill

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

SD, all of our matches are already "borderline fanfiction", especially ones with speed equalized or restricted techniques. Simply having it so the opponent doesn't target the trainer isn't any worse than those.

@Kalt I don't think you can consider fights against criminal organizations to be "for sports".

 

[SomebodyData]

@Saik Difference is that speed equalization and restricting abilities make sense, as to simply have the battle (The latter is still included?), what this does is go the extra mile and straight up has it so we have to ignore actual showings and information of personalities and how abilities work. One thing is equalizing a stat, the other is changing the abilities and personalities, the point that it isn't even an accurate potrayal from really any standpoint.

 

[Kaltias]

Not against criminal organizations. I was talking about battles in the Pokemon League and stuff like that (which are the majority of the battles)

Even then I don't really see a reason to prevent the opponent from targeting the trainer, only because people in their series don't do that.

Only because no one ever ordered their Alakazam to rip a trainer in two with telekinesis, doesn't mean that this is something that Alakazam can't do

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Not wanting a non-combatant whose only role is to guide and order to be immediately one-shot and lose the fight doesn't make sense compared to deciding to make a character thousand of time slower than normal?

We already change personalities for the sake of fights, such as our default "willing to kill" assumption or bloodlust. It's not anything new, and it certainly does not make "more sense" than what we're doing with trainers.

@Kalt I already said that it's not impossible to do, but just something that does not happen and how fights are done in the series. If the trainer is seen as a target by the opponent, then it throws away how trainers fight and instead make the fight more about if the Pokémon can prevent their trainer from dying instead of actually fighting.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

At the very least have the winning conditions be the defeat of the Pokémon and have the opponent target the Pokémon at first. It would make fights closer to how they work in-universe.

 

[SomebodyData]

"Non-combatant"

Like I said above, even in Pokemon, that is not 100% the case, and its not like they can't enter combat themselves.

If you put it like that, then it does make less sense in comparsion. However, changing personalities, fighting styles, ability, and power mechanics compared to one stat which is the bigger picture here, does not fall under the same conclusion.

This is essentially the equivalent of saying Jotaro Kujo is immune to battle because he's not the one pulling the punches.

The changes you've described are not only minor, but also often depicted in-verse, whereas the rule isn't even followed by the verses its supposed to help.

 

[SomebodyData]

"It would make fights closer to how they work in-universe."

Like I've said above with examples, that's not even true.

I'll be making a CRT or change this thread to one, which one would you guys prefer?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I'd be fine with that

 

[SomebodyData]

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2126717 Made a new thread, mostly for space.