2 Asinine Combatants... (Maxine Caulfield vs Daniel Dickens)

[H3110l12345I20]

^^^

Memory is foggy, but I last saw Max getting beaten by another time user because her combat exp is bad? So what happens if she actually is in a confrontation? Technically, both combatants don't have to kill each other if they have other means of winning (like incapacitation, subduing, or rarer cases, leaving the battlefield).

Conditions: Speed is equalized, both opponents are 10-B and Danny has prior knowledge on how Max's powers work. (she generally uses her arms and hands to use her powers frequently, but if he restrains her before she can rewind or something, he pretty much wins)

Danny is a creepy *******:

I take photos. Of me, the world, everything. It may sound sad, but I have a blast.:

Incon:

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Idk. Can't Danny just shoot her before she does a gesture given he can react to information at Supersonic+ speeds? He can stop her from doing a single thing at Normal Human speed.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Idk. Can't Danny just shoot her before she does a gesture given he can react to information at Supersonic+ speeds? He can stop her from doing a single thing at Normal Human speed.

The gun is restricted and they both have equal. Combat/reactions are equal here. Though unless you can argue if this match would be still fair with a GUN, I don't see how talking about it would help

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

The gun is restricted and they both have equal. Combat/reactions are equal here

Combat speed is the only speed that is equalized within matches. Reactions, Attack, Flight speed all keep their same multiplier above the equalized combat speed. That's the rules on here

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Combat speed is the only speed that is equalized within matches. Reactions, Attack, Flight speed all keep their same multiplier above the equalized combat speed. That's the rules on here

Your implying he can react faster despite equal combat speed? In that case, he has an edge here.

But what about in the scenario where both opponents wanna win besides hurting or killing each other? Who would incapacitate or even in a rarer case, convince the other to leave?

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Your implying he can react faster despite equal combat speed? In that case, he has an edge here.

Yes.. you are indeed correct.. an edge you say? In numerical terms, Dan scales to Zack who is far faster than Rachel.. who can react 331.2x faster than Max can move or think here- With prior knowledge he'd be able to easily incacipate Max before a blink can even register with any prescribed method mentioned-

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Yes.. you are indeed correct.. an edge you say? In numerical terms, Dan scales to Zack who is far faster than Rachel.. who can react 331.2x faster than Max can move or think here- With prior knowledge he'd be able to easily incacipate Max before a blink can even register with any prescribed method mentioned-

Reaction speed doesn't grant him movement speed, by SBA they should start probably 4km apart because of Max's universal range.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Reaction speed doesn't grant him movement speed

I know, I wasn't trying to imply that. I'm saying whatever wincon Danny has will need to take place before Max does a gesture which... He'd be able to react in time to stop it. The wincon shouldn't include any movement from him either.. otherwise, if he doesn't have any and can't stop her with his reaction speed, then it's just a stomp since Max wins with a singular gesture....

by SBA they should start probably 4km apart because of Max's universal range.

Goodness gracious- How will they even meet each other to begin with

 

[H3110l12345I20]

This match is intended to be melee range considering Danny can only attack via restraining and smacking. Either way, the only way I could think of fixing this dumpster fire match would be to take away prior knowledge on the off chance her right hand is still usable? Even In the dark room tied to a chair, she was still able to use her hand to rewind.

Any other ideas?

 

[Scarletjet]

What if Max gets possessed by her older self that knows how to win the battle? Also for what I remember she doesn't need the arms, it's just a way to help her focus because most of the times her power is already active when her arms are being lifted.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

What if Max gets possessed by her older self that knows how to win the battle? Also for what I remember she doesn't need the arms, it's just a way to help her focus because most of the times her power is already active when her arms are being lifted.

Technically, debates like this are traditionally "who wins first" unless I enable this wincon. Even then, the real question would be if this match in this case is still fair since her time hax is broken if she ever gets to use it.

And if she can use her powers without arms, you're implying she needs her hands.

 

[Scarletjet]

Technically, debates like this are traditionally "who wins first" unless I enable this wincon. Even then, the real question would be if this match in this case is still fair since her time hax is broken if she ever gets to use it.

And if she can use her powers without arms, you're implying she needs her hands.

She doesn't need arms of hands, it's about focus, she literally used her time travel on a photo while restrained in the dark room, and she can also use her rewind too. The arms seems more of a way to make it easier to focus. It's not like her time travel cames from her hands or arms so she can use them even if you cut her arms off

 

[H3110l12345I20]

She doesn't need arms of hands, it's about focus, she literally used her time travel on a photo while restrained in the dark room, and she can also use her rewind too. The arms seems more of a way to make it easier to focus. It's not like her time travel cames from her hands or arms so she can use them even if you cut her arms off

And? In that case she technically hasn't shown to rewind perfectly without need her limbs to help. Not to mention the risk of her powers being dysfunctional without her hands.

Why even use her hand in the first place if she can be perfectly fine without using her hand? We would see this more often with stuff like her rewind.

 

[Scarletjet]

And? In that case she technically hasn't shown to rewind perfectly without need her limbs to help. Not to mention the risk of her powers being dysfunctional without her hands.

Why even use her hand in the first place if she can be perfectly fine without using her hand? We would see this more often with stuff like her rewind.

It's like saying Charles Xavier needs to do this or his powers will never work.

It's merely a gesture to focus.
And she does it without any gesture here and many times after this during this entire episode on the dark room.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

It's like saying Charles Xavier needs to do this or his powers will never work.

It's merely a gesture to focus.
And she does it without any gesture here and many times after this during this entire episode on the dark room.

Max practically still has her hand out, and I don't see her right hand being still when she has the opportunity to use her hand to focus

 

[Scarletjet]

Max practically still has her hand out, and I don't see her right hand being still when she has the opportunity to use her hand to focus

The video clearly shows her hands are not moving, Why are you forcing this? It's just not a fight worth fighting.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

The video clearly shows her hands are not moving, Why are you forcing this? It's just not a fight worth fighting.

Forgive me if I missed stuff, but where? Even then, do we have canonical evidence to confirm this isn't a game mechanic. That's the main beef even if I have to concede on seeing it

 

[Scarletjet]

Forgive me if I missed stuff, but where? Even then, do we have canonical evidence to confirm this isn't a game mechanic. That's the main beef even if I have to concede on seeing it

I sent you a link just watch it.
Game mechanics have nothing to do with this. You might as well ask if she moving her hands is game mechanics.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

I sent you a link just watch it.
Game mechanics have nothing to do with this. You might as well ask if she moving her hands is game mechanics.

"Just watch it" the view is obsured and I explicitally said I missed something if there was something.

There's canonically evidence at the start of LiS 1 that Max reaches her hand out at the start of ep 1 to rewind. It was used as a part of the story in her discovery of her powers. If nowhere in the story does it provide evidence she can rewind perfectly fine without putting her hand out to help her like she does in character, what is that going to tell other users here?

 

[Scarletjet]

"Just watch it" the view is obsured and I explicitally said I missed something if there was something.

It's there and if you actualyl look at her hands you see they are not moving, I don't know why do I have to specifically show the time but here it is, you can very clearly see her hand she rewinds

There's canonically evidence at the start of LiS 1 that Max reaches her hand out at the start of ep 1 to rewind. It was used as a part of the story in her discovery of her powers. If nowhere in the story does it provide evidence she can rewind perfectly fine without putting her hand out to help her like she does in character, what is that going to tell other users here?

Nowhere does it say that her powers depend on her hands, at best it says she can focus using her hands but it's irrelevant if she is restrained like she was while in the dark room. The point is restrainning her hands/arms doesn't stop her from using her powers

 

[H3110l12345I20]

It's there and if you actualyl look at her hands you see they are not moving, I don't know why do I have to specifically show the time but here it is, you can very clearly see her hand she rewinds

Nowhere does it say that her powers depend on her hands, at best it says she can focus using her hands but it's irrelevant if she is restrained like she was while in the dark room. The point is restrainning her hands/arms doesn't stop her from using her powers

And, she barely rewinded a couple seconds back.

? You do realize how much actions speak louder than words and they convey more emotion. That's why creators use omitted meanings of dialogue and actions. It technically doesn't say that, however, if the devs wanted it to be clear she uses her mind rather than her hand, we would also see statements or actions relating to that to rewind. Besides, I envoked game nechanics because I wanted to see how much they're canon compared to idk, pausing the game or not going outside boundaries of the play area?

 

[Scarletjet]

And, she barely rewinded a couple seconds back.

She always only rewinds a couple seconds maybe a minute at best, also in this scene she was drugged and was getting tired of constant use of her powers.

? You do realize how much actions speak louder than words and they convey more emotion. That's why creators use omitted meanings of dialogue and actions.

There is a difference between "omitted" and headcannon.

It technically doesn't say that, however, if the devs wanted it to be clear she uses her mind rather than her hand, we would also see statements or actions relating to that to rewind.

We do, the fact that she uses her mind to focus on an image to time travel makes it clear that her ability is in her mind, the fact that her nose bleeds when she uses her powers a lot also clearly to show they are in her mind, the fact that her powers activate before she even raises her hands, the fact she uses her powers without moving her hands. There is a lot of clear evidence that it has nothing to do with her arms/hands.

Besides, I envoked game nechanics because I wanted to see how much they're canon compared to idk, pausing the game or not going outside boundaries of the play area?

Game mechanics have little to do with this. Game mechanics is the way the game limits how and when she can use the powers but this has nothing to do with it.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

I rewatched the scan, and elaborate how game mechanics have nothing to do with stuff? I can say that the game works to show how max use her power to the player, but it never says how it could still be canon? Parts of Max rewinding while staying still could be left out, and stuff would still make sense in canon. Elaborate how that would still be canon if my game mechanics thing is unnecessary. What it's the difference between a consistent interpretation and a headcanon here? That's what I wanna know. If not, we can drop this debate

 

[H3110l12345I20]

I also forgot to mention Fallen a's point again. Is there even any chance Max would sustain any injury from Danny? He can be quite fast in reactions and land a few scraches or pressure injuries. We haven't seen what happens if Max rewinds post injury, but I presume it would still be there considering her being drugged was still in effect.

 

[Scarletjet]

I rewatched the scan, and elaborate how game mechanics have nothing to do with stuff? I can say that the game works to show how max use her power to the player, but it never says how it could still be canon?

How her powers work and are shown is all "cannon".

Parts of Max rewinding while staying still could be left out, and stuff would still make sense in canon.

Irrelevant, many things could be left out and it would still make sense included either or not her hands are raised.

Elaborate how that would still be canon if my game mechanics thing is unnecessary. What it's the difference between a consistent interpretation and a headcanon here? That's what I wanna know. If not, we can drop this debate

That question surely means you don't understand what game mechanics are. What you are claiming is not a "consistent interpretation", there is no "consistent interpretation" because for that to exist there would need to have contradictions, her arms/hands are irrelevant to the powers themselves, she was never stated that her arms/hands are required to be up to use her powers so if she uses her powers without moving her arms/hands is as cannon as anything else.
Headcanon is you assuming she needs to raise her arms/hands just because it happened and it wouldn't work otherwise, consistent interpretation would be i na case where a character has contradictions and the wiki assumes the ones that happened the most are valid while the others are not, for example in the case that Max was stated that her powers won't work unless she has her arms raised and then at some point she uses without moving her hands we go with the most consistent.

I also forgot to mention Fallen a's point again. Is there even any chance Max would sustain any injury from Danny?

That's AP related, since it's clear that Danny doesn't have stomp level AP, it's assumed that he needs more than just 1 or 2 punches to win

He can be quite fast in reactions and land a few scraches or pressure injuries.

That's not how reactions work. Reaction speed doesn't grant Danny the ability to punch at that speed, it's just his ability to dodge, if Max throws a punch at Danny then the supersonic reaction cames into play and he dodges but punching is combat speed which is equalized so no Danny can't throw a punch faster than Max can block it or just rewind.

We haven't seen what happens if Max rewinds post injury, but I presume it would still be there considering her being drugged was still in effect.

It's unknown if her injuries would be kept but the drugged part is not true, there is a part during the whole Dark room where Max states that she needs to go back into a time where she is less drugged so that she can use her powers and escape. But considering that she keeps objects when she rewinds in time it's likely that she would keep the injury, but if she time travels using photos she possesses a different version of herself so injuries are not kept.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

How her powers work and are shown is all "cannon".

Irrelevant, many things could be left out and it would still make sense included either or not her hands are raised.

That question surely means you don't understand what game mechanics are. What you are claiming is not a "consistent interpretation", there is no "consistent interpretation" because for that to exist there would need to have contradictions, her arms/hands are irrelevant to the powers themselves, she was never stated that her arms/hands are required to be up to use her powers so if she uses her powers without moving her arms/hands is as cannon as anything else.
Headcanon is you assuming she needs to raise her arms/hands just because it happened and it wouldn't work otherwise, consistent interpretation would be i na case where a character has contradictions and the wiki assumes the ones that happened the most are valid while the others are not, for example in the case that Max was stated that her powers won't work unless she has her arms raised and then at some point she uses without moving her hands we go with the most consistent.

That's AP related, since it's clear that Danny doesn't have stomp level AP, it's assumed that he needs more than just 1 or 2 punches to win

That's not how reactions work. Reaction speed doesn't grant Danny the ability to punch at that speed, it's just his ability to dodge, if Max throws a punch at Danny then the supersonic reaction cames into play and he dodges but punching is combat speed which is equalized so no Danny can't throw a punch faster than Max can block it or just rewind.

It's unknown if her injuries would be kept but the drugged part is not true, there is a part during the whole Dark room where Max states that she needs to go back into a time where she is less drugged so that she can use her powers and escape. But considering that she keeps objects when she rewinds in time it's likely that she would keep the injury, but if she time travels using photos she possesses a different version of herself so injuries are not kept.

A: How the game works doesn't always make what we see apart of the story. The game for all we know could be glitched or game limits could prevent us from actually seeing what is happening. Not to mention there are plenty of cases in the first game where the game freezes in time after the player waits long enough, and yet for some reason it's not a major story element since Max used her time stop on Kate. I would argue that since Max leaning forward in her arm in the discovery of her powers is a major story event and not her standing still And rewinding, that's canon. And even if we don't assume that, that means we can't really tell if Max standing still and rewinding in the dark room is canon since she habitually would move her right hand out.

B: If that is how reactions work, then it yields similar impacts since Danny is less likely to be hurt than Max. Since SBA technically means winning than killing the battle through any means (not limited to killing if there are other options to win), I'm sure Max would try other nonphysical options to win first since that is what she does in game. So Danny either wears her down, or Max pulls a SAVE AND LOAD on Danny.

 

[Scarletjet]

A: How the game works doesn't always make what we see apart of the story. The game for all we know could be glitched or game limits could prevent us from actually seeing what is happening.

The remastered version of the game is like that so, no, clearly is not a glitch and it's not game limits becuase you can control the game perspective

Not to mention there are plenty of cases in the first game where the game freezes in time after the player waits long enough, and yet for some reason it's not a major story element since Max used her time stop on Kate.

That is a game mechanic to stop you from dying, you have no choice, time slowes down to a crawl when you are about to die to stop you from dying, because the programmers decided not to progam a case where you actually die.

I would argue that since Max leaning forward in her arm in the discovery of her powers is a major story event and not her standing still And rewinding, that's canon. And even if we don't assume that, that means we can't really tell if Max standing still and rewinding in the dark room is canon since she habitually would move her right hand out.

She moved her hand as an instint trying to reach Chloe who was dying, she didn't even knew she had powers yet, the same thing when Kate dies. I already told you that is as cannon as any other scene, it's not a contradiction, during the game that scene in the dark room is the first time she had to use her powers while her hands were restrained, all the other times she used her powers she had her hands and arms free.

B: If that is how reactions work, then it yields similar impacts since Danny is less likely to be hurt than Max. Since SBA technically means winning than killing the battle through any means (not limited to killing if there are other options to win), I'm sure Max would try other nonphysical options to win first since that is what she does in game. So Danny either wears her down, or Max pulls a SAVE AND LOAD on Danny.

Max doesn't really fight physically, so she is more likely to just stop time and use it to restrain or find a weapon to threaten him and win, in worse case Max could hurt Danny like she does when she fired at Frank. Also she right now has weather manipulation, air manipulation, heat manipulation all of which could kill Danny.


I will not be answering anymore, I already explained it, if you don't understand it's because you don't want to. Max is under thread revision which means that there is no actual point in doing this fight anyways, and also all the time this VS thread been open almost no one commented so it's probably just gonna end up dead anyways. If by some reason this fight doesn't end up dead my vote is still on Max.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

I will not be answering anymore, I already explained it, if you don't understand it's because you don't want to. Max is under thread revision which means that there is no actual point in doing this fight anyways, and also all the time this VS thread been open almost no one commented so it's probably just gonna end up dead anyways. If by some reason this fight doesn't end up dead my vote is still on Max.

Respect if you don't read this anyways (you're not obligated to respond anyways).

Incase you do rspond or for future users: I was on my phone and I miscommunicated that Max holding her hand out and discovering her powers as canon. I meant to differeniate that from standing still and rewinding. I also asked to elaborate how her staying still and rewinding is still a part of the story, quite the contradiction to "I don't want to understand."

On the basis of this blog from this thread? Unless if elaborated (and I read it once), I don't think that's not going to change Max's powers or the fact Danny knows Max's powers and can react to virtually 99% of them with his insane reaction speed. BFR or tier 2 based abilities for example? Both opponents are literally 10-B and how is Max going to get around that insane reaction speed?

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bumping for interest

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Bumping for interest

A pleasant surprise.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Inded

 

[Peppersalt43]

Anyway, bump