Goku (GT) vs Goku (Super Manga) (rematch)

[Mickey1940]

Fight's at a Minecraft Superflat Bedrock-only seed (both are players, so indestructible ground). Steve used "/gamerule doDaylightCycle false" and "/time set noon", so it's always midday and we'll have no Golden Oozaru

GT is in his 2nd key (

Super Manga is at his 5th key

Both start transformed (SS3 and Perfected Ultra Instinct (will be reffering to it as "pUI")

Speed is equal

Remaking this fight cuz the thread was closed before the discussion was finished

Super:

GT:

 

[Mickey1940]

@RedReaper616 made a long post in the last thread that I'm currently trying and failing to repost here, so ig I'll just do everything manually

 

[Mickey1940]

GRACE [7-2-0] Goku (GT) vs Goku (Super Manga)

Welp, this'll leave my counsciousness in peace just by existing, even if people ignore it again. [/QUOTE] Do the math, both the same value x 2-C [/SPOILER] GT - 7 (@RedReaper616, @Nonynho, @Anonymous_Learner, @Supersonicmaker, @YuseiDragon1, @AppleMaker, @Muteki616) Manga - 2 (@Mickey1940...

vsbattles.com

"This is stated to be a Ki Passive. Goku doesn’t have to “Use” it. Unless you’re using Toei Ki, the information you get will be wrong.
Technically, Ultra Instinct reacting without thought/cognitive perception is good but not perfect, as Ultra Instinct still relies on sensory input, with “each part of the body moving and deciding for itself” based on altered cellular processes. Even if Superku’s arm is judging independently from the brain, the arm itself is still is getting incorrect information from its surroundings even without the brain to mess it up.
That said, considering this perception only affected Kid Goku’s sight, sound, and (MAYBE) spatial awareness (as he did not touch, taste, or smell it), it’s irrelevant. In the case here, Ultra Instinct Goku just has to close his eyes and he’ll be fine since it’s not like his arm interprets auditory or visual information."

GTku doesn't passively use low level illusions in battle nor would it be particularly useful against Ultra Instinct, since not only like you said, he can just close his eyes, but it's never shown to work on anyone with proper ki sensing. You're basically claiming that GTku can use Genjutsu to f*ck up Ultra Instinct when it's never been shown to do anything of the sort
Oh, and by the way, Superku can see through illusions so it still doesn't work

"Actually, this isn’t implied at all. Popo just snags his Ki from afar because Kid Goku is leaking it, verbatim. Even if sensing mattered to do it remotely, it’s meaningless, because as long as Superku has Ki to leak, (which he does have, ESPECIALLY if he goes into TUI), he should be vulnerable to it, as sensing the Ki becomes irrelevant when it’s quite visibly in his face."

So you're basically saying he has to be constantly grabbing the residuals of someone he can't actively sense in order to track him, when emitting your own ki/Instant Transmission can break the link through common sense (emitting your own ki should repel other people's ki, and Instant Transmission teleports Superku to an area and GTku needs to find him again to re-track him, which isn't nearly as fast as literally just sensing people)


"He explicitly learned the skill from Mr. Popo, and demonstrates the skill to evade Lightning."

Cool, he learned how to dodge lightning, when he's already faster than lightning, heard thunder so he knows what to expect, looked AT THE BOLT when it was moving towards him, and continued looking at the bolt to dodge it. I'm pretty sure anyone who is fast enough to perceive lightning can dodge lightning. He's clearly opening his eyes here.
sensing "energy disturbances" is also still blatantly slower than Ultra Instinct, not to mention Superku doesn't have to jump through 15 hoops to sense GTku. At the end of the day, GTku has to "feel the absence of nothing" to sense Superku when Superku literally has to do nothing to sense GTku. It's still disadvantageous towards GTku either way, and again, he hasn't been shown to be able to rely on this ever. He's never fought anyone he can't sense before besides Super 17, which he did REALLY poorly against sine he was an idiot and spammed ki attacks against an android that could absorb energy, not to mention he couldn't sense him at all either. I don't see him "sensing the disturbances in ambient energy" in this clip, how about you?

"The Androids were like, halfway across the globe. We’re talking about a fight within sight lines. Even if we’re ignoring that, all that would mean is that the Toei Androids are more un-sensible than the Canon Androids? (Obviously it’s just a Toei induced plot hole, but it doesn’t change that Goku literally has the skill and it’s built into his very applications of Ki)."

Both characters can teleport. Superku can figure out where GTku is immediately at all times, and even if he can't, Ultra Instinct patches up the rest of the holes. GTku does not have this same benefit. And no, the Canon Androids can't be sensed by people who can sense God Ki, so all of the androids in DBZ are just blatantly un-sensible by any dragon ball character in every regard

"Layered Sensing becomes irrelevant with the Link. Again, being “harder to sense” does not make visible energy less visible or harder to interact with."

Breaking the link and teleportation says otherwise

"Toei Kid Goku didn’t even know what Popo was doing, and Popo verbatim says it’s because Goku was leaking Ki. This would make more sense if you were talking about Perfected SSB Goku, who EXPLICITLY DOESN’T LEAK KI, but Ultra Instinct Goku does, (albeit not often as Perfected Ultra Instinct, whereas True Ultra Instinct is extremely bad about it). Regardless, the point remains—Nothing about Superku makes it more difficult. And even granting your point was right, it’s not like SUPERKU knows that any Ki he leaks will cause the Link, and thus cannot attempt to avoid it."

what's stopping Superku from sensing the link and breaking it? GTku doesn't have the ability to hide anything. Perfected Ultra Instinct, as you said, doesn't leak ki often, and he STARTS with this key. So on top of GTku already having to go through hoops to link Superku, Superku doesn't have anything to link most of the time anyways. So what can GTku even do?

"As demonstrated against Moro, when it comes to defense it interprets as beneath ability to harm, Ultra Instinct will instinctively trigger heightened defense to cause you harm instead. So I don’t imagine it evading. Additionally, Ultra Instinct’s evasion isn’t perfect, and also, are we assuming Superku just never gets hit once? Like, he’d have to constantly evade the energy of GTku."

Cool. So UI can't dodge the ki link. But Superku can still sense it and break it with his own brainpower, which really shouldn't be hard at all
And Ultra Instinct's evasion has ONLY ever been broken by characters with Telekinetic restraints, paralysis, or just being faster, which the first he's never done to restrain people, the second Superku resists as GTku's paralysis is dependent on electricity which Superku resists, and the third is cancelled out by Speed Equalization. So GTku has no actual way around Ultra Instinct, meaning GTku will be taking FAR more hits than Superku will

"No one said anything about Goku surviving. I agreed from jump he would die. I’m talking about the ability to evade thanks to literally sensing Ki be erased from existence on its way to him"

then Superku grabs him and GTku dies. No one says it HAS to be a projectile

"Hakai is massively energy intensive. Even with his heightened ability relative to the Goku Black Saga, there’s no reason to believe he can casually cast Hakai at will."

he literally can

"I don’t see how Ultra Instinct is “designed” to counter this. And Ultra Instinct countering doesn’t matter, because GT Goku counters again. This isn’t about “who can counter better.” The Ambient Ki Awareness just means he has better awareness of the battlefield than Superku and isn’t at Ki Sense Disadvantage. Plus, Ultra Instinct having IR is great, and it’s beyond ordinary IR, but it’s not like Toeiku is out of IR either. He can move without thinking, evade and attack, unconsciously act to absorb the energy of the Spirit Bomb, and react to incoming danger while asleep. (All of that sounds familiar, doesn’t it?)
Again, not saying GTku has “equal” IR, but he does have and use it in his fighting style, so presumably he’s ALSO instinctively acting. He’s just not literally severing consciousness and body to do it."

GTku has literally never used this against anyone else in the series past the original Dragon Ball nor does he use it often IN original Dragon Ball outside of training. There are no modern iterations of GTku that use instinctive reaction to benefit him in fights. It didn't help him against Super 17, or most of the other antagonists in the series at all. Meanwhile, Superku very obviously uses this in all of his modern fights, and can actively use the technique in all of his other forms. On top of all this, Superku can do what GTku does too, yet Ultra Instinct is blatantly considered superior. GTku isn't keeping up

"every instant is important. Goku being hit with the “Wait, wha-“ or even if nigh-instantly learning the technique, it’s still NIGH-Instant. It’s STILL bought time."

While Superku is saying "Wait, wha-", his body, which is (boy you ain't gonna believe this) USING ULTRA INSTINCT blocks/dodges/hardens against the incoming attack anyways so this is a literal moot point. GTku, meanwhile, CAN and WILL get caught off guard if Superku tries to pull anything.

"True, but if GTku evades it, he can learn it. (Hakai)"

except Superku resist it so it wouldn't work anyways, not to mention Superku can dodge it WAY easier than GTku can due to ULTRA INSTINCT and being able to sense GTku at all times

"I don’t see how. Again, not sensing Energy doesn’t make it harder to touch, absorb, deflect, see, hear, etc. It just makes it harder to get a read on. Also, this seems like a hilarious argument to me when one of UI Goku’s go-to last ditch moves is literally a GIANT GOD KI AVATAR that is RICH WITH ENERGY that ALL CAN PERCEIVE to GRAB HIS FOE. Like, what are we saying here?"

Moro can absorb ki through his hands and yet when Goku's Ki Avatar and Earth Moro were engaged in premarital handholding the ki avatar wasn't effected. So even if GTku could interact with it, I don't think he can absorb it
Also good luck absorbing a Kamehameha that's actively vaporizing you. Like I mentioned before, he's never been able to absorb attacks from other people, and he has DEFINITELY been attacked by ki attacks before

"Goku literally gets caught off guard by Angel Moro and Gohan. Mostly because of Magic/MUI and a stat gap, sure, but still. In this instance, GTku Absorbing the Ki of Superku massively improves his stats and gives him a momentary lapse to work with. Even ignoring that, this still forces UI Goku to attempt to work AROUND that disadvantage."

Like you said, the only time UI was bypassed was through Magic, COPYING UI, and a stat gap. GTku absorbing Superku's residuals, first of all, isn't going to go unnoticed, GTku has never done this, absorbing residuals won't "massively improve his stats" since they're residuals and Superku doesn't leak enough ki to make it so that absorbing would do anything, and any other source of energy would come from energy attacks, which, as I've already established, GTku can't absorb sicne he will be actively dying from them

"He can still see, hear, smell, etc. He can still keep up with the currents of the air. Plus, again, Ki Link and Ambient Ki Disturbances. Like, you’re really running into this as if GTku is missing all his sensory organs off of the inability to sense Ki. And that’s ignoring the fact that even IN Dragon Ball Super, you can still feel the resulting PRESSURE of God Ki in the air. Like, it’s not some eldritch incomprehensible thing."

Against a character with teleportation like Superku, being able to keep up when you can't tell where someone is until you figure out where they aren't is objectively slower than just f*cking knowing where they are. Like you said, every instance is important, and Superku can force several missed instances just because GTku has to try that much harder to even know where he is

"He was also healed and had a Senzu, but okay. Also doesn’t change that he verbatim said he has a limited time limit and Granolah literally mentions outright accuracy dies out over time. Also, as MUI fluctuates based on the exact emotions you feel at a given second, you could legit reason Granolah Arc’s is just not as efficient stamina wise as the Moro Arc. Especially since later in the Post-Superhero content, Gohan punches Goku out of MUI."

Superku was able to deactivate and reactivate UI at will against Moro. He gets healed, beats the crap out of Moro, HEALS MORO WITH A SENZU, beats the crap out of him AGAIN, Moro absorbs Merus and gets even stronger, Goku can still keep up and remains undamaged from all of his attacks, Moro absorbs the entire planet, and Goku can still keep up even when Moro creates numerous extra limbs and STILL HAS ULTRA INSTINCT HIMSELF. UI's fluctuations depending on emotions seems to be something Superku has down pat, as he's literally never lost control of his emotions in this key and the decreasing accuracy he showed in the Granolah arc isn't something GTku can replicate. GTku also can't punch Superku out of UI like Gohan can for reasons I'll explain later

"The reason this happens is explicitly, according to Goku, that he heard of Cell’s absorption ability, and because he heard it existed, the technique will not function on him. As in, he devised a means to resist it based solely on heresay alone. It’s specifically similar to the idea of Goku “seeing a technique’s flaws” and thus the technique not working on him again, but this is through just being told."

Cell's absorption isn't a ki technique. GTku literally just crawled out of Cell's *sshole since he's WAY stronger. Crawling out of the buttcrack of a bug man isn't exactly skill based

"He can fight against in depth Supercomputer Fighting Style Reading, (Android 13 Movie), he’s got more Ki Mastery (Ki just does more, as mentioned prior), he’s got more move copying, (legit copied the Final Explosion from hearing it existed), able to predict where people teleport mid-fight, a more advanced version of Instant Transmission (though he cannot use it in this child body), electric damage with his Aura, (which can paralyze), more ability to survive in space, Plus Energy that “puts the world to the way it is SUPPOSED to be,” etc. He gets a good amount of stuff from his content—Though usually more in line of elaborating and improving a fundamental ability, not granting him some new unique move out of nowhere. (With Super Dragon Fist being the only noteworthy exception)."

1. Goku was getting his *ss beaten to hell and back by Super 13, blowing yourself up isn't hard to replicate as even Chiaotzu can do it (not to mention it's not particularily helpful in this fight as the attack kills him and both Gokus can teleport)
2. Predicting where people teleport isn't as impressive as Superku predicting Hit's Time Skip
3. Electric damage is something Superku resists
4. Paralysis is something Superku resists
5. Space Survival is valid but isn't really a factor since neither Goku wants to blow up the planet

"There’s also his God Bind, Internal Destruction, the Deconstruction on the Boulder, Illusions, minor Body Control, Mafuba and Breath Attack. Most of these just aren’t viable against GTku. (GTku has internal damage resistance, the battlefield awareness sidesteps the illusions, Superku doesn’t often carry the Mafuba jar, and GT’s evasion keeps him from failing to the Deconstruction and God Bind unless he gets caught off guard. Plus, copying the God Bind seemingly allows you to reverse it, ala Broly)."

Superku resists literally all of his own abilities (besides Mafuba but neither Goku brings a jar so it doesn't really matter), not to mention if Superku uses God Bind, I find it highly unlikely that he's going to talk GTku out of fighting like he did with Broly, which gave Broly enough time to mimic the ability and use it against Superku, which by the way Superku ignored seconds after Broly used it
I honestly don't think mimicking will benefit either Goku too much since they both resist their own abilities, but Superku has Hakai as an instakill move that is more likely to straight up murder GTku before he gets a chance to copy it

"No, Dragon Fist is literally solidifying your Fighting Spirit/Willpower into a giant energy Dragon. It is a hax. Now, whether or not Superku could copy it is a different story. I don’t see why he couldn’t though."

It's not. Fighting Spirit is just ki. He's making a ki dragon and then punching someone in the face really really hard. Considering how Superku can also make Ki constructs, he should also be able to copy it

"Pretty sure it’s far more. At the end of the Buu Saga, SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu are equal. GT Base Goku in Episode 1 is relative to his peak as a SSJ3 prior, (so 400x stronger than him), there’s a 250000x jump between E1 Goku and E28, (or 100 million), and then GTKu can go SSJ3 on top of that (grand total of 40 Billion)."

The specific numbers don't matter

"I’m not sure the SSGSS multiplier is accepted, actually. I’ll have to check on that."

It would make no logical sense for it not to be, ESPECIALLY for the manga. Goku Black goes from 4B to 2C by adapting to such an extent that he can match SSGSS Vegeta in base. At the time, SSGSS is a transformation that makes you go from 4B to 2C. Goku and Vegeta then train so much that they replicated what Goku Black did, and can match Goku Black using the same forms. There's no reason to assume the transformation stopped giving them a "4B to 2C" amp, as it always has up until that point in the story. You're basically creating an artificial flat multiplier in order to compensate for the fact that you can't mathematically square a "4B to 2C" amp.

In the anime, you can maybe make the argument that the Super Saiyan God form obtained from the ritual is better than the Super Saiyan God form you use after the fact. But in the manga, the form stays the same in usage and power, and claiming that the form gets weaker in the Goku Black arc makes zero sense. In my opinion, GTku gets slapped in AP

"GTku literally absorbed the Revenge Death Ball Final. Just objectively wrong."

you know what, you're right
So Superku is also allowed to do the same thing then right


TLDR, ki tracking doesn't actually contribute anything, both Gokus can copy most of what they do, assuming equal stats Superku has Hakai while GTku has to wait out UI while also eating hits constantly.

So why does GTku win

 

[Nonynho]

@RedReaper616 made a long post in the last thread that I'm currently trying and failing to repost here, so ig I'll just do everything manually

reach his wall, @ does not work unless ur a mod

 

[Nonynho]

TLDR, ki tracking doesn't actually contribute anything, both Gokus can copy most of what they do, assuming equal stats Superku has Hakai while GTku has to wait out UI while also eating hits constantly.

i'll let RedReaper answer to ya what you adressed to him, but i gotta say that we spoke multiple times about Hakai being too slow with GTku being able to react to it very easily
Ki tracking makes a large diff because it contributes to their prediction (since it's not of a magical nature, but an analysis of what's happening (which is why it's called Analytical Prediction)) and GTku has more experience than Superku, including people that can copy like he can, so it wouldn't be just waiting out, he has plenty of stuff to try
Also, as they're equal, Super Dragon Fist seems to end him since it did to many foes that were at his level, for starters

 

[Mickey1940]

i'll let RedReaper answer to ya what you adressed to him, but i gotta say that we spoke multiple times about Hakai being too slow with GTku being able to react to it very easily
Ki tracking makes a large diff because it contributes to their prediction (since it's not of a magical nature, but an analysis of what's happening (which is why it's called Analytical Prediction)) and GTku has more experience than Superku, including people that can copy like he can, so it wouldn't be just waiting out, he has plenty of stuff to try
Also, as they're equal, Super Dragon Fist seems to end him since it did to many foes that were at his level, for starters

Ki tracking which can be broken/interrupted, GTku already grasping for straws to sense in the first place, Hakai being spammable for Superku in this key, and Ultra Instinct already being able to ignore illusions and predict teleportation, on top of the fact that Hakai isn't a projectile and works the instant he points his hand AND is used at point blank range all make it so GTku has to try REALLY hard to dodge or he WILL die even with the slightest contact

You're also basically saying GTku, a guy with no Ultra Instinct and can't sense his opponent, can dodge Hakai, an instant kill hax that requires no chargeup, while Superku, a guy WITH Ultra Instinct and CAN sense his opponent, can't dodge a Suepr Dragon Fist which is significantly more telegraphed and requires more chargeup. You're being hypocritical

 

[Nonynho]

Ki tracking which can be broken/interrupted

Hakai being spammable for Superku in this key

Not easy to do against GTku, is it?;
Superku doesn't spam this, IC, so it doesn't matter

on top of the fact that Hakai isn't a projectile and works the instant he points his hand AND is used at point blank range

Superku does not use it with frequency enough for this to be a factor, and it's been shown to be dodgeable

so GTku has to try REALLY hard to dodge or he WILL die even with the slightest contact

Goku's analytical prediction is very good, it is not hard for someone at his level to dodge it.

can't sense his opponent

We've been there multiple times, it is not even hard for him to ki track the other guy and plenty of evidence shows it

can't dodge a Super* Dragon Fist

Point to me where have i said he can't dodge it by no means?
Same as Hakai, if it hits, it's gg

more telegraphed and requires more chargeup

Tell that to the opponents that took it and were able to easily react to every other move of his, but couldn't react to this lol

You're being hypocritical

Imma ignore this just by pointing out

Super Dragon Fist seems to end him

that this is what i said.
Where have i said that it is 100% impossible to dodge that? stop looking like Pokémon Showdown players, mate, geez

 

[Nonynho]

I would also like to call mods here to see if this is actually something we should be doing, cuz so far all just seems like repetition to me

 

[Mickey1940]

Not easy to do against GTku, is it?;
Superku doesn't spam this, IC, so it doesn't matter

Breaking a ki link you can sense shouldn't be difficult to do. It's not like Superku has to power through GTku's strongest attack or smthn, it's just a link of ambient ki. As for hakai, he can use it with no effort at all

Superku does not use it with frequency enough for this to be a factor, and it's been shown to be dodgeable

it's not. Zamasu lots half his body in a matter of moments and the only reason why he was successfully able to shield himself with Mai is because Hakai doesn't kill him to begin with due to High Godly regen. GTku doesn't have this advantage

Goku's analytical prediction is very good, it is not hard for someone at his level to dodge it.

Superku's seems superior here. Predicting someone with Time Skip (which functionally is identical to time stop) is at the very least equal to what GTku can do, on top of the fact that Superku is still a Goku, and therefore also has many of the feats GTku does. The only experiences he doesn't have in this regard is the Worlds Strongest movie (the GT and Broly movie feats on his profile are more for Info Analysis instead of Analytical Prediction so I excluded it from the list cuz it's not relevant to this point)

We've been there multiple times, it is not even hard for him to ki track the other guy and plenty of evidence shows it

Not only is the ki link prone to be shattered, teleportation also breaks the link for obvious reasons and at the end of the day it's an additional hoop that he needs to get through that Superku doesn't have. GTku isn't fighting some fodder enemy here, he's fighting a version of himself with equal skill, arguably better analytical prediction, and ki that he can't sense and has to "feel for the absense of something". Superku teleporting here is going to be a WAY bigger problem for GTku compared to the other way around. Not to mention, GTku regularly struggles against enemies with no ki signature (GTku vs Super 17, GTku slams Super 17 into a forest and followed him into the forest and that's literally all it took for Super 17 to catch him off guard with an attack. It's actually kinda dumb)

Point to me where have i said he can't dodge it by no means?
Same as Hakai, if it hits, it's gg

fair enough, you indeed did not say that

Tell that to the opponents that took it and were able to easily react to every other move of his, but couldn't react to this lol

Against Hirudegarn, Goku used it after Hirudegarn was in immense pain from getting his tail cut off, enraged at Goku's taunting, and forced himself to solidify to hit Goku while Goku dodged and immediately Dragon Fisted. Superku isn't gonna fall for that shit cuz Ultra Instinct is extremely funny and hilarious
Against Super 17, he literally couldn't move because of 18 blasting him with energy and forcing him to absorb it, leaving him completely wide open to Goku's Super Dragon Fist. Superku will obviously not need to constantly T Pose against GTku this way
Agaisnt Eis Shenron, Goku literally punched him while he was already down. That's... probably something GTku could do? But that's not really an instakill move moreso being just beating down someone you've already beaten. GTku has to figure out smthn else to actually get Superku in that position in the first place


GTku has no actual wincon here. Superku has a more beneficial transformation, Ultra Instinct and better analytical prediction counters GTku's better ki manipulation, normal ki sensing and teleportation stops the ki link, Super Dragon Fist is way easier to dodge compared to Superku's Hakai, and the stamina issue is a non factor by the Moro arc assuming he doesn't take massive damage to the vitals or is drained of all his ki like Moro and Granolah did, not to mention even if GTku tries outlasting him, Superku can just pull out Hakai early and there's nothing GTku can do. GTku is taking way more damage throughout the fight due to Ultra Instinct granting Superku a far better defensive profile and GTku's generally smaller stature being a disadvantage against someone of equal skill and better Anal Predict.

 

[RedReaper616]

GRACE [7-2-0] Goku (GT) vs Goku (Super Manga)

Welp, this'll leave my counsciousness in peace just by existing, even if people ignore it again. [/QUOTE] Do the math, both the same value x 2-C [/SPOILER] GT - 7 (@RedReaper616, @Nonynho, @Anonymous_Learner, @Supersonicmaker, @YuseiDragon1, @AppleMaker, @Muteki616) Manga - 2 (@Mickey1940...

vsbattles.com

"This is stated to be a Ki Passive. Goku doesn’t have to “Use” it. Unless you’re using Toei Ki, the information you get will be wrong.
Technically, Ultra Instinct reacting without thought/cognitive perception is good but not perfect, as Ultra Instinct still relies on sensory input, with “each part of the body moving and deciding for itself” based on altered cellular processes. Even if Superku’s arm is judging independently from the brain, the arm itself is still is getting incorrect information from its surroundings even without the brain to mess it up.
That said, considering this perception only affected Kid Goku’s sight, sound, and (MAYBE) spatial awareness (as he did not touch, taste, or smell it), it’s irrelevant. In the case here, Ultra Instinct Goku just has to close his eyes and he’ll be fine since it’s not like his arm interprets auditory or visual information."

GTku doesn't passively use low level illusions in battle—

I feel like you didn’t actually look at the scan (again). Popo stressed this happens because Goku did not use Ki to perceive. It’s not a “use illusions” thing. It’s just intrinsic to Toei Ki.

Basically: If I use Toei Ki and you don’t, you experience these illusions. Of you do and I don’t, I experience them. If we both do, then neither do. It’s far more akin to how Stands in JoJo just have innate properties. In this case, the properties of Ki in Toei are mildly different than Canon.

nor would it be particularly useful against Ultra Instinct, since not only like you said, he can just close his eyes

Correct.

but it's never shown to work on anyone with proper ki sensing.

…Because it doesn’t work on others with Toei Ki. As Superku uses Canon Ki, he is vulnerable. It’s a type advantage difference.

You're basically claiming that GTku can use Genjutsu to f*ck up Ultra Instinct when it's never been shown to do anything of the sort.

I literally said Ultra Instinct could work through it.

Oh, and by the way, Superku can see through illusions so it still doesn't work

Fair, I guess? I feel like there’s a difference between an illusory double and simply being given wrong perception via Ki. I say this because Toeiku can also see through illusions and it’s treated entirely separate from the Perception Manip Passive.

"Actually, this isn’t implied at all. Popo just snags his Ki from afar because Kid Goku is leaking it, verbatim. Even if sensing mattered to do it remotely, it’s meaningless, because as long as Superku has Ki to leak, (which he does have, ESPECIALLY if he goes into TUI), he should be vulnerable to it, as sensing the Ki becomes irrelevant when it’s quite visibly in his face."

So you're basically saying he has to be constantly grabbing the residuals of someone he can't actively sense in order to track him,

Sorta? Popo was able to do it because he linked their energy from Goku’s leaking form. But again, GT Goku still has eyes. God Ki is still visible. It’s just not “sensible.” So this really doesn’t matter.

when emitting your own ki/Instant Transmission can break the link through common sense

This hasn’t ever been demonstrated. I’d argue you could interpret it as the exact opposite—Given Popo says leaking Ki causes it, so releasing more Ki would give more to work with. Hence why I specified PSSB is the best counter.

Instant Transmission teleports Superku to an area and GTku needs to find him again to re-track him, which isn't nearly as fast as literally just sensing people)

I think that is fair. But it not difficult, given he can sense the disturbances of energy around him and feel Superku’s “pressure”.

"He explicitly learned the skill from Mr. Popo, and demonstrates the skill to evade Lightning."

Cool, he learned how to dodge lightning, when he's already faster than lightning,

It’s magical tracking lightning.

heard thunder so he knows what to expect, looked AT THE BOLT when it was moving towards him, and continued looking at the bolt to dodge it.

He tried that earlier in the episode and got toasted for it. It’s specifically all about the monologue Popo gives in that moment. It’s explicitly how Goku dodged.

I'm pretty sure anyone who is fast enough to perceive lightning can dodge lightning. He's clearly opening his eyes here.

He didn’t even look?

sensing "energy disturbances" is also still blatantly slower than Ultra Instinct, not to mention Superku doesn't have to jump through 15 hoops to sense GTku.

The battle starts in sight lines and these are all things treated as fundamentals to Toeiku’s mastery of Ki. It’s not 15 hoops—It’s how he works mechanically. His version of stuff is “Canon + Extra”. That extra means he works differently, and thus when he goes to sense Superku are just things he is intended to be doing normally.

At the end of the day, GTku has to "feel the absence of nothing" to sense Superku when Superku literally has to do nothing to sense GTku. It's still disadvantageous towards GTku either way,

Except if GTku is doing exactly that, it’s not disadvantageous. He would still sense Superku perfectly fine, just in different ways.

and again, he hasn't been shown to be able to rely on this ever.

Again, this is treated as Ki fundamentals in the same way Goku in canon does his training with Popo. The only difference is we actually got to see some of the lessons that went into it and thus makes GTku’s basics outright better.

He's never fought anyone he can't sense before besides Super 17,

Androids 13, 14, 15, 19, 20, and Super 17. Also, the other Z-Fighters and Cell use the same thing Goku does, and they were easily capable of fighting 16, 17, 18, and Hell Fighter 17.

which he did REALLY poorly against sine he was an idiot and spammed ki attacks against an android that could absorb energy, not to mention he couldn't sense him at all either. I don't see him "sensing the disturbances in ambient energy" in this clip, how about you?

Goku immediately is attacked before he can even try to figure out where Super 17 here. Also, GTku wanted to overload S.17, like he did Yakon. Myuu himself even says he expected S.17 to be totally messed up by that, and that S.17 was actually BETTER than he calculated. (Meaning it could’ve actually worked if Super 17 was only as capable as designed).

"The Androids were like, halfway across the globe. We’re talking about a fight within sight lines. Even if we’re ignoring that, all that would mean is that the Toei Androids are more un-sensible than the Canon Androids? (Obviously it’s just a Toei induced plot hole, but it doesn’t change that Goku literally has the skill and it’s built into his very applications of Ki)."

Both characters can teleport.

Untrue. While stuck in his Kid Body, GTku can’t. Or rather, he can’t without breaking limits or moving beyond a few meters. (Though, absorbing Ki from Superku probably counts enough to regain the ability).

Superku can figure out where GTku is immediately at all times, and even if he can't, Ultra Instinct patches up the rest of the holes. GTku does not have this same benefit.

But it doesn’t matter if he can mitigate it anyway. Which he can.

And no, the Canon Androids can't be sensed by people who can sense God Ki, so all of the androids in DBZ are just blatantly un-sensible by any dragon ball character in every regard.

Dunno what this is supposed to point out when the point of contention is the Toei Androids.

"Layered Sensing becomes irrelevant with the Link. Again, being “harder to sense” does not make visible energy less visible or harder to interact with."

Breaking the link and teleportation says otherwise

Already talked about this.

"Toei Kid Goku didn’t even know what Popo was doing, and Popo verbatim says it’s because Goku was leaking Ki. This would make more sense if you were talking about Perfected SSB Goku, who EXPLICITLY DOESN’T LEAK KI, but Ultra Instinct Goku does, (albeit not often as Perfected Ultra Instinct, whereas True Ultra Instinct is extremely bad about it). Regardless, the point remains—Nothing about Superku makes it more difficult. And even granting your point was right, it’s not like SUPERKU knows that any Ki he leaks will cause the Link, and thus cannot attempt to avoid it."

what's stopping Superku from sensing the link and breaking it? GTku doesn't have the ability to hide anything.

How does he break it? You’re positing he just powers up. Also, powering up in that way reduces Ki and thus reduces his timer.

Perfected Ultra Instinct, as you said, doesn't leak ki often, and he STARTS with this key. So on top of GTku already having to go through hoops to link Superku, Superku doesn't have anything to link most of the time anyways. So what can GTku even do?

He still leaks Ki. He still also utilizes Ki. So it’s not that big a deal. Plus, again, ambient energy.

"As demonstrated against Moro, when it comes to defense it interprets as beneath ability to harm, Ultra Instinct will instinctively trigger heightened defense to cause you harm instead. So I don’t imagine it evading. Additionally, Ultra Instinct’s evasion isn’t perfect, and also, are we assuming Superku just never gets hit once? Like, he’d have to constantly evade the energy of GTku."

Cool. So UI can't dodge the ki link. But Superku can still sense it and break it with his own brainpower, which really shouldn't be hard at all
And Ultra Instinct's evasion has ONLY ever been broken by characters with Telekinetic restraints, paralysis, or just being faster, which the first he's never done to restrain people, the second Superku resists as GTku's paralysis is dependent on electricity which Superku resists, and the third is cancelled out by Speed Equalization. So GTku has no actual way around Ultra Instinct, meaning GTku will be taking FAR more hits than Superku will

Only maybe physically? But it’s irrelevant when the stamina of Superku bites him in the ass and means he’ll be done relatively quickly. The precision of UI drops DRAMATICALLY over time, and Goku doesn’t have a LOT of that at ALL. GTku literally can just outlast him.

"No one said anything about Goku surviving. I agreed from jump he would die. I’m talking about the ability to evade thanks to literally sensing Ki be erased from existence on its way to him"

then Superku grabs him and GTku dies. No one says it HAS to be a projectile

So are we just giving Superku moves now? Grapple Hakai?

"Hakai is massively energy intensive. Even with his heightened ability relative to the Goku Black Saga, there’s no reason to believe he can casually cast Hakai at will."

he literally can

That’s not accepted to be Hakai at all on Wiki/Forum. (Also, given Hakai is literally demonstrated to be the equal-opposite of UI in nature, assuming it is such would be incorrect. Especially since later Goku says the one time he used it, he botched it, implying he never got better).

"I don’t see how Ultra Instinct is “designed” to counter this. And Ultra Instinct countering doesn’t matter, because GT Goku counters again. This isn’t about “who can counter better.” The Ambient Ki Awareness just means he has better awareness of the battlefield than Superku and isn’t at Ki Sense Disadvantage. Plus, Ultra Instinct having IR is great, and it’s beyond ordinary IR, but it’s not like Toeiku is out of IR either. He can move without thinking, evade and attack, unconsciously act to absorb the energy of the Spirit Bomb, and react to incoming danger while asleep. (All of that sounds familiar, doesn’t it?)
Again, not saying GTku has “equal” IR, but he does have and use it in his fighting style, so presumably he’s ALSO instinctively acting. He’s just not literally severing consciousness and body to do it."

GTku has literally never used this against anyone else in the series past the original Dragon Ball nor does he use it often IN original Dragon Ball outside of training.

Which are depicted as Ki Fundamentals, so you wouldn’t need to see it know it exists.

There are no modern iterations of GTku that use instinctive reaction to benefit him in fights.

Some of those examples are literally in Z.

It didn't help him against Super 17, or most of the other antagonists in the series at all. Meanwhile, Superku very obviously uses this in all of his modern fights, and can actively use the technique in all of his other forms. On top of all this, Superku can do what GTku does too, yet Ultra Instinct is blatantly considered superior. GTku isn't keeping up

None of that has the additional Toei Context, like stillness creating oneshot differences, or ambient Ki Sensing, perception manip, etc. Fundamentally, Superku doesn’t have GTku’s abilities.

"every instant is important. Goku being hit with the “Wait, wha-“ or even if nigh-instantly learning the technique, it’s still NIGH-Instant. It’s STILL bought time."

While Superku is saying "Wait, wha-", his body, which is (boy you ain't gonna believe this) USING ULTRA INSTINCT blocks/dodges/hardens against the incoming attack anyways so this is a literal moot point.

Sure, I never denied that. But we’re talking about actually making counters. For at least a brief moment, Goku will have none. And because of absorbing Ki raising stats, GTku would have the stat edge in that instance, which has demonstrated the ability to bypass PUI.

GTku, meanwhile, CAN and WILL get caught off guard if Superku tries to pull anything.

"True, but if GTku evades it, he can learn it. (Hakai)"

except Superku resist it so it wouldn't work anyways,

Already agreed to that.

not to mention Superku can dodge it WAY easier than GTku can due to ULTRA INSTINCT

Sure.

and being able to sense GTku at all times

Eh. It evens out because of GTku’s extra methods here.

"I don’t see how. Again, not sensing Energy doesn’t make it harder to touch, absorb, deflect, see, hear, etc. It just makes it harder to get a read on. Also, this seems like a hilarious argument to me when one of UI Goku’s go-to last ditch moves is literally a GIANT GOD KI AVATAR that is RICH WITH ENERGY that ALL CAN PERCEIVE to GRAB HIS FOE. Like, what are we saying here?"

Moro can absorb ki through his hands and yet when Goku's Ki Avatar and Earth Moro were engaged in premarital handholding the ki avatar wasn't effected.

Moro was literally a brain dead monster. Also he was sapping Ki from everyone, (on a planetary scale). And Goku WAS affected. He was just able to hit Moro in the glass head piece right there before he can be drained to zilch again.

So even if GTku could interact with it, I don't think he can absorb it
Also good luck absorbing a Kamehameha that's actively vaporizing you. Like I mentioned before, he's never been able to absorb attacks from other people, and he has DEFINITELY been attacked by ki attacks before

He absorbed the Revenge Death Ball Final. Which is an Evil Spirit Bomb that is so potent it warps space and time as it damages you (which, because it’s also Ki, should also be vaporizing). And GT Goku absorbed it. So yeah, he’s good.

"Goku literally gets caught off guard by Angel Moro and Gohan. Mostly because of Magic/MUI and a stat gap, sure, but still. In this instance, GTku Absorbing the Ki of Superku massively improves his stats and gives him a momentary lapse to work with. Even ignoring that, this still forces UI Goku to attempt to work AROUND that disadvantage."

Like you said, the only time UI was bypassed was through Magic, COPYING UI, and a stat gap. GTku absorbing Superku's residuals, first of all, isn't going to go unnoticed, GTku has never done this, absorbing residuals won't "massively improve his stats" since they're residuals

Simply getting God Ki jumped Goku from below 2-C to 2-C. Plus, the residuals of Superku at this point dwarf his SSG strength from BoG. Gaining God Ki absolutely is a major amp. It’s also not just residuals. We’re talking absorbing Ki from attacks Superku is slinging at GTku.

and Superku doesn't leak enough ki to make it so that absorbing would do anything, and any other source of energy would come from energy attacks, which, as I've already established, GTku can't absorb sicne he will be actively dying from them

He can absolutely absorb them.

"He can still see, hear, smell, etc. He can still keep up with the currents of the air. Plus, again, Ki Link and Ambient Ki Disturbances. Like, you’re really running into this as if GTku is missing all his sensory organs off of the inability to sense Ki. And that’s ignoring the fact that even IN Dragon Ball Super, you can still feel the resulting PRESSURE of God Ki in the air. Like, it’s not some eldritch incomprehensible thing."

Against a character with teleportation like Superku, being able to keep up when you can't tell where someone is until you figure out where they aren't is objectively slower than just f*cking knowing where they are.

Except the ways GTku does this also doubles as just knowing where they are. It’s just mechanically different.

Like you said, every instance is important, and Superku can force several missed instances just because GTku has to try that much harder to even know where he is

Again, because it’s treated as fundamentals. Not really.

"He was also healed and had a Senzu, but okay. Also doesn’t change that he verbatim said he has a limited time limit and Granolah literally mentions outright accuracy dies out over time. Also, as MUI fluctuates based on the exact emotions you feel at a given second, you could legit reason Granolah Arc’s is just not as efficient stamina wise as the Moro Arc. Especially since later in the Post-Superhero content, Gohan punches Goku out of MUI."

Superku was able to deactivate and reactivate UI at will against Moro. He gets healed, beats the crap out of Moro, HEALS MORO WITH A SENZU, beats the crap out of him AGAIN, Moro absorbs Merus and gets even stronger, Goku can still keep up and remains undamaged from all of his attacks, Moro absorbs the entire planet, and Goku can still keep up even when Moro creates numerous extra limbs and STILL HAS ULTRA INSTINCT HIMSELF. UI's fluctuations depending on emotions seems to be something Superku has down pat, as he's literally never lost control of his emotions in this key and the decreasing accuracy he showed in the Granolah arc isn't something GTku can replicate.

Except Goku treats it as a built in limit of his Ultra Instinct. Not something that needs to be replicated to make him fight worse.

"The reason this happens is explicitly, according to Goku, that he heard of Cell’s absorption ability, and because he heard it existed, the technique will not function on him. As in, he devised a means to resist it based solely on heresay alone. It’s specifically similar to the idea of Goku “seeing a technique’s flaws” and thus the technique not working on him again, but this is through just being told."

Cell's absorption isn't a ki technique. GTku literally just crawled out of Cell's *sshole since he's WAY stronger. Crawling out of the buttcrack of a bug man isn't exactly skill based

Straight up just not what’s stated. Goku gained a resistance specifically because he heard the technique existed. That’s all.

"He can fight against in depth Supercomputer Fighting Style Reading, (Android 13 Movie), he’s got more Ki Mastery (Ki just does more, as mentioned prior), he’s got more move copying, (legit copied the Final Explosion from hearing it existed), able to predict where people teleport mid-fight, a more advanced version of Instant Transmission (though he cannot use it in this child body), electric damage with his Aura, (which can paralyze), more ability to survive in space, Plus Energy that “puts the world to the way it is SUPPOSED to be,” etc. He gets a good amount of stuff from his content—Though usually more in line of elaborating and improving a fundamental ability, not granting him some new unique move out of nowhere. (With Super Dragon Fist being the only noteworthy exception)."

1. Goku was getting his *ss beaten to hell and back by Super 13,

So? He fought evenly to superior in Base and SSJ. He still demonstrates an extra skill feat.

blowing yourself up isn't hard to replicate as even Chiaotzu can do it (not to mention it's not particularily helpful in this fight as the attack kills him and both Gokus can teleport)

The Chiaotzu variant is based on psychic ability. The Final Explosion specifically is entirely different, converting your lifeforce into energy. Still an additional skill feat.

2. Predicting where people teleport isn't as impressive as Superku predicting Hit's Time Skip

Still an additional skill feat. Also, considering the teleportation is instant, fundamentally speaking, from an outside observer perspective, they’re identical (attacking movement within zero time, which is what the Goku’s use to gain their predictive feat), so the feats are actually identical, practically speaking.

3. Electric damage is something Superku resists

Still an additional ability/skill feat.

4. Paralysis is something Superku resists

Still an additional ability/skill feat.

5. Space Survival is valid but isn't really a factor since neither Goku wants to blow up the planet

Cool.

But problem—Your question when you told me to list was about GTku’s experience and skill feats. If you recall, your stance was that it was basically worthless events that don’t add to the actual difference in combat ability.

Me listing this is not to list things GTku could use to win, it’s to point out that your idea is fundamentally wrong.

"There’s also his God Bind, Internal Destruction, the Deconstruction on the Boulder, Illusions, minor Body Control, Mafuba and Breath Attack. Most of these just aren’t viable against GTku. (GTku has internal damage resistance, the battlefield awareness sidesteps the illusions, Superku doesn’t often carry the Mafuba jar, and GT’s evasion keeps him from failing to the Deconstruction and God Bind unless he gets caught off guard. Plus, copying the God Bind seemingly allows you to reverse it, ala Broly)."

Superku resists literally all of his own abilities (besides Mafuba but neither Goku brings a jar so it doesn't really matter), not to mention if Superku uses God Bind, I find it highly unlikely that he's going to talk GTku out of fighting like he did with Broly, which gave Broly enough time to mimic the ability and use it against Superku,

Broly also sat around and let Superku yap until he decided to continue. If Broly just copied and reversed it immediately, then he definitely would’ve slapped Superku around.

which by the way Superku ignored seconds after Broly used it

False. Goku was caught and it only broke when Broly hit him.

I honestly don't think mimicking will benefit either Goku too much since they both resist their own abilities,

Agreed-ish. Gaining God Ki and copying Superku on top of using his own methods of Ki Use together is definitely a big boon for GTku. More specifically in amplifying the potency of his abilities.

but Superku has Hakai as an instakill move that is more likely to straight up murder GTku before he gets a chance to copy it

Fair.

"No, Dragon Fist is literally solidifying your Fighting Spirit/Willpower into a giant energy Dragon. It is a hax. Now, whether or not Superku could copy it is a different story. I don’t see why he couldn’t though."

It's not. Fighting Spirit is just ki.

Fighting Spirit and Ki are related, but the files specifically state it’s just materialized fighting spirit. Though, I myself said Superku should be capable of copying it.

"Pretty sure it’s far more. At the end of the Buu Saga, SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu are equal. GT Base Goku in Episode 1 is relative to his peak as a SSJ3 prior, (so 400x stronger than him), there’s a 250000x jump between E1 Goku and E28, (or 100 million), and then GTKu can go SSJ3 on top of that (grand total of 40 Billion)."

The specific numbers don't matter

They kind of do.

"I’m not sure the SSGSS multiplier is accepted, actually. I’ll have to check on that."

It would make no logical sense for it not to be, ESPECIALLY for the manga. Goku Black goes from 4B to 2C by adapting to such an extent that he can match SSGSS Vegeta in base. At the time, SSGSS is a transformation that makes you go from 4B to 2C. Goku and Vegeta then train so much that they replicated what Goku Black did, and can match Goku Black using the same forms. There's no reason to assume the transformation stopped giving them a "4B to 2C" amp, as it always has up until that point in the story. You're basically creating an artificial flat multiplier in order to compensate for the fact that you can't mathematically square a "4B to 2C" amp.

I say it to mention that the only accepted God Ki amps I’m aware of is 160K for SSG and 8 Million for SSB. The 4-B to 2-C jump isn’t applied in any scaling chains.

In the anime, you can maybe make the argument that the Super Saiyan God form obtained from the ritual is better than the Super Saiyan God form you use after the fact. But in the manga, the form stays the same in usage and power, and claiming that the form gets weaker in the Goku Black arc makes zero sense.

I never claimed that, so we’re on the same page.

In my opinion, GTku gets slapped in AP

Allegedly you’re entirely wrong, because the OP was literally posted to specifically demonstrate what the stats are.

"GTku literally absorbed the Revenge Death Ball Final. Just objectively wrong."

you know what, you're right
So Superku is also allowed to do the same thing then right

That’s Anime Superku. In the Manga, which is the discussion, he just matches it via KHH. But if it had happened in the Manga too, I don’t see why not? Though, again, it didn’t, so it’s irrelevant.

TLDR, ki tracking doesn't actually contribute anything, both Gokus can copy most of what they do, assuming equal stats Superku has Hakai while GTku has to wait out UI while also eating hits constantly.

1) Ki Tracking mitigates the God Ki Sense
2) GTku has superior combat feats or equal
3) God Ki absorption means GTku gets the stat amp opening we’ve SEEN take out Superku
4) PUI eats stamina for breakfast, (as well gets worse even when the form isn’t undone), so GTku doesn’t have to wait long at all.

So why does GTku win

Superior stamina, better Ki Versatility, absorption and the stat amp opening, and limits in Superku himself, with potential superiority in a fight. Though Superku can win if GTku’s misunderstanding of his own strength ends up affecting him too much alongside the easy oneshot of Hakai.

 

[Nonynho]

.

Would i be correct if i say that we're circling around?

 

[RedReaper616]

Would i be correct if i say that we're circling around?

Sorta, yeah?

The first bit is talking about the Perception Manip, which is fairly simple. It’s innate to Toei Ki.

Ki Sensing, which should be fairly straightforward. GTku can’t sense it directly, but he can get around that so it doesn’t matter.

Both of these are so simple the fact weave have these go arounds is kind of crazy to me. And both of these have had moments where Mickey could only come to the conclusion he did if he didn’t actually watch the scan in question.

The next is an unsubstantiated hypothetical, (breaking Ki Linking via powering up), which is irrelevant. (Teleporting would probably work though).

There’s also contradictions—(“Superku has what GTku has” {he doesn’t, but even if he did, he doesn’t demonstrate it often either, so claiming GTku can’t use it just because it’s a Ki Fundamental you don’t get to see is straight up double standards}).

Also just purposely downplaying GTku’s Ki Absorption and Superku’s bad stamina (and overplaying the aid UI gives).

And then we just loop on those topics and haven’t spoken on anything truly new beyond like, the hypothetical nature of how exactly they can copy each other being rendered a null advantage. (I only think it’s relevant for GTku because copying Superku then allows GTku to instantly replicate how to properly use God Ki).

 

[Nonynho]

Sorta, yeah?

All-purpose request thread (New forum)

Hey, can this be opened so I can change the BDE from Type 1 to Type 3? It's supposed to be the latter.

vsbattles.com

Corroborate with this post, if you can, cuz i think it too

 

[RedReaper616]

Well, I’m not one to shut down a conversation, so I’d rather not.

 

[Mickey1940]

I'm just gonna reply to Redreaper's smaller comment because the last time I responded to a bigger comment it took me 3 hours and their smaller comment already encompasses most of the points anyways

 

[Mickey1940]

Sorta, yeah?

The first bit is talking about the Perception Manip, which is fairly simple. It’s innate to Toei Ki.

I never said he couldn't do it. I'm just saying it doesn't really matter in this case. The scan for this makes it pretty clear that seeing with your eyes only doesn't work on characters who can do this. However, Superku in UI sometimes doesn't even need to open his eyes to fight efficiently, as ki sense and Ultra Instinct does the job.

Not to mention, both of them went through Popo's training, and although GTku can sense ripples in the environment and ambient disturbances in energy, which I admit would normally work against Superku even if it's an additional annoying step, constant teleportation throws all of that out the window due to GTku's inability to actually sense him, which not only breaks whatever link he had on him previously, but it would require GTku to re-sense his surroundings every time, which would cause brief instances of being off-guard, which he really can't afford in any case.

Ki Sensing, which should be fairly straightforward. GTku can’t sense it directly, but he can get around that so it doesn’t matter.

Again, I admit you're correct about this, but teleportation throws that out the window every time it's used. At the end of the day, GTku needs to actually FIND him again, which although it wouldn't take that long, but it's still not something he can do instantly, which is easy enough for Superku to exploit.

Heck, he lost track of Super 17 during their fight just because Super 17 hid in some bushes, and Super 17 can't even teleport. That's not a good track record. Superku has a massive environmental and teleportation advantage in this regard (and before you say that's the wrong key, Super 17 Arc Goku should be stronger and more skilled than Baby Arc Goku, and the fact that the stronger and more skilled version failed to track something he can't sense just because he hid in trees make

Both of these are so simple the fact weave have these go arounds is kind of crazy to me. And both of these have had moments where Mickey could only come to the conclusion he did if he didn’t actually watch the scan in question.

I conceded that they exist. Unfortunately, Superku has workarounds just by existing and also by teleporting

The next is an unsubstantiated hypothetical, (breaking Ki Linking via powering up), which is irrelevant. (Teleporting would probably work though).

even you admit it

There’s also contradictions—(“Superku has what GTku has” {he doesn’t, but even if he did, he doesn’t demonstrate it often either, so claiming GTku can’t use it just because it’s a Ki Fundamental you don’t get to see is straight up double standards}).

In terms of ki mastery, I'm willing to concede this point. I didn't look at the scans properly before

Also just purposely downplaying GTku’s Ki Absorption and Superku’s bad stamina (and overplaying the aid UI gives).

GTku's absorption has only ever happened against enemy attacks in his Super Saiyan 4 state. Once he unlocked Super Saiyan 4 he showcased this ability multiple times, like absorbing Baby's Revenge Death Ball Final and absorbing his family's ki twice, although in their case they just willingly gave it to him
GTku can't go Super Saiyan 4 in this match. Without Super Saiyan 4, his only example of absorbing ki was via the Super Android 13 movie, in which he absorbed the energy of his own Spirit Bomb, which, not only does it take time to prepare, but is also his own attack. I find it more likely that absorbing foreign ki is more a special attribute of Super Saiyan 4 instead of just being an ability that Goku has due to his lack of showings
As for absorbing Omega Shenron's Negative Karma ball, uh no he didn't absorb that sh*t. He went "non-descript power up" in an ultimate display of Plot Armor and PIS. Nowhere on the Dragon Ball Wiki or THIS wiki does it imply that he absorbed it, and even then it's not the same key as this one

As for Superku's stamina, I'm pretty sure turning MUI off and on again against Moro indicates extreme mastery of the form at this point (he tried talking Moro down and detransformed to do so). He was also able to thrash Moro through 3 different forms even after he was healed, and he even healed Moro with a Senzu to try and convince him to give up. His stamina issues aren't anywhere near as bad as they are from the Tournament of Power, and it should last long enough to make outlasting NOT a viable wincon for GTku, especially since landing hits on Superku is going to be a problem due to his worse Analytical Prediction and blatantly way worse Instinctive Action (which I want to mention is layered, since he already had this ability before unlocking UI, although in base his isn't nearly as good as GTku's)

And then we just loop on those topics and haven’t spoken on anything truly new beyond like, the hypothetical nature of how exactly they can copy each other being rendered a null advantage. (I only think it’s relevant for GTku because copying Superku then allows GTku to instantly replicate how to properly use God Ki).

There are very very VERY few example of characters in Dragon Ball being able to replicate God Ki. The only example of this we actually have is Vegeta, who achieved Super Saiyan God
... after over a year and 4 months of training with said gods and constant exposure to God Ki from Beerus and Whis (the dragon balls were used in both films, and Frieza trained for an additional 4 months after they were used)
and also Moro who was only able to do it after eating Seven Three and directly copying Merus's abilities (NOT absorbing them), who has power Mimicry beyond anything we've seen before. He's even been able to copy genetic abilities like Namekian Gigantification and Back Quills, which would normally be impossible for obvious reasons.
Even if we assume GTku is hundreds or even thousands of times more skilled than Vegeta, learning God Ki and Super Saiyan God would take him hours, which is not enough time to survive Superku's onslaught. I also want to mention that Vegeta has Power Mimicry himself (he saw Krillin's Destructo Disc a single time and is the first person to actually use it successfully). I find it extremely difficult to believe that GTku can master God Ki just from seeing it once

The only real way he can potentially learn it immediately is by absorbing Superku's ki attacks, except again I find it unlikely that he can do this without Super Saiyan 4

 

[RedReaper616]

I never said he couldn't do it. I'm just saying it doesn't really matter in this case. The scan for this makes it pretty clear that seeing with your eyes only doesn't work on characters who can do this. However, Superku in UI sometimes doesn't even need to open his eyes to fight efficiently, as ki sense and Ultra Instinct does the job.

While I agree closing your eyes definitely works and mentioned that myself, (and ignoring what you hear), as mentioned by Granolah, cellular processes (transference of information) still applies in PUI. It’s just altered. So effectively, if Goku sees “incorrectly” his PUI will react perfectly to that incorrect information, because UI and PUI still include cellular processes (and thus transference of information). Though, again, closing his eyes should work.

Not to mention, both of them went through Popo's training, and although GTku can sense ripples in the environment and ambient disturbances in energy, which I admit would normally work against Superku even if it's an additional annoying step,

I’m glad we can agree on that.

constant teleportation throws all of that out the window due to GTku's inability to actually sense him,

Superku would have to know that GTku can’t sense him to employ that strategy. Which sounds like a weird stipulation, but like, lots of people with ordinary Ki can sense God Ki. Given GTku will fight as if he CAN sense Superku, and Superku knows of ordinary Ki Users who can, he’d just assume that GTku can. It would only be after employing Instant Transmission would he realize something’s amiss (if he even does, because…

which not only breaks whatever link he had on him previously, but it would require GTku to re-sense his surroundings every time, which would cause brief instances of being off-guard, which he really can't afford in any case.

…GTku’s training is more advanced, but still presented as the fundamentals and basics. Arguing he’d have to intensely struggle and think to perform his sensory mechanism is tantamount to saying Superku would need to actively utilize his awareness of air currents, when that’s presented as explicitly a fundamental he’s kind of just…always doing thanks to Popo.)

Also, checking over GT again, eventually in GT Ki Sensing somehow got good enough to sense the Ki of Androids, actually. Which leads credence to being able to work around it.

Again, I admit you're correct about this, but teleportation throws that out the window every time it's used. At the end of the day, GTku needs to actually FIND him again, which although it wouldn't take that long, but it's still not something he can do instantly, which is easy enough for Superku to exploit.

This is true.

Heck, he lost track of Super 17 during their fight just because Super 17 hid in some bushes, and Super 17 can't even teleport.

Again, he never even got to try. And looking over the Sub, (because I remembered from that instance of someone plagiarizing my blog), Goku claims he’s actually going to do just that—Sense Super 17, that is.

That's not a good track record. Superku has a massive environmental and teleportation advantage in this regard

Agreed, because…GTku can’t teleport in this key.

In terms of ki mastery, I'm willing to concede this point. I didn't look at the scans properly before

Thank you.

GTku's absorption has only ever happened against enemy attacks in his Super Saiyan 4 state.

Technically true, but it’s never been implied to be unique to SSJ4.

GTku can't go Super Saiyan 4 in this match. Without Super Saiyan 4, his only example of absorbing ki was via the Super Android 13 movie, in which he absorbed the energy of his own Spirit Bomb, which, not only does it take time to prepare, but is also his own attack.

Again, false. There’s also absorbing Ki from Piccolo to utilize the Kaioken x 100 in the Lord Slug movie and absorbing the Z-Fighters Ki in the Broly LSSJ movie. Though in those instances the Ki was also given by them. But also…

I find it more likely that absorbing foreign ki is more a special attribute of Super Saiyan 4 instead of just being an ability that Goku has due to his lack of showings

…in GT, he absorbs Ki twice in Base. Again, both instances are “given”, but it’s still showings of foreign Ki being fine. Those being Piccolo’s Ki to transcend his kid body for Instant Transmission, and the Ki of the Saiyans to prep for the battle against Omega Shenron.

As for absorbing Omega Shenron's Negative Karma ball, uh no he didn't absorb that sh*t.

I…never said he did…?

He went "non-descript power up" in an ultimate display of Plot Armor and PIS. Nowhere on the Dragon Ball Wiki or THIS wiki does it imply that he absorbed it, and even then it's not the same key as this one

More specifically, he transcended ordinary life and death in Dragon Ball. Dying and becoming some “other” state, essentially finally gaining enlightenment (thematically), and was taken to “the realm of the gods” after defeating Omega.

As for Superku's stamina, I'm pretty sure turning MUI off and on again against Moro indicates extreme mastery of the form at this point (he tried talking Moro down and detransformed to do so). He was also able to thrash Moro through 3 different forms even after he was healed, and he even healed Moro with a Senzu to try and convince him to give up. His stamina issues aren't anywhere near as bad as they are from the Tournament of Power, and it should last long enough to make outlasting NOT a viable wincon for GTku, especially since landing hits on Superku is going to be a problem due to his worse Analytical Prediction and blatantly way worse Instinctive Action (which I want to mention is layered, since he already had this ability before unlocking UI, although in base his isn't nearly as good as GTku's)

Again, this is just not the case in the Granolah Saga. Goku straight up says he’s on a timer, Granolah says he was watching and say that the effectiveness was dropping dramatically over time, and the arc even starts with Whis saying to “save it for emergencies” to “break his limits.” Hell, the narrative through-line he gets by the end of the Saga is “his own version” of Ultra Instinct, that can use emotion, because Goku is innately emotional (and that the emotionless variant is him just copying Whis), which is why he “invents” TUI. Explicitly, what he did with Moro can’t be replicated here. If you wanted some explanation to make this make sense, it’s likely that Merus’ death acted as an X-Factor to Goku, where he felt an unstated calmness to live up to a legacy rather than his natural state, which—As posited by the Granolah Saga—Is emotional.

There are very very VERY few example of characters in Dragon Ball being able to replicate God Ki. The only example of this we actually have is Vegeta, who achieved Super Saiyan God
... after over a year and 4 months of training with said gods and constant exposure to God Ki from Beerus and Whis (the dragon balls were used in both films, and Frieza trained for an additional 4 months after they were used)

I don’t think he could replicate it independently. I think he could just absorb the God Ki (as we’ve seen him do to other energy attacks) and just copy the principles of Superku’s energy control to get a handle on God Ki.

and also Moro who was only able to do it after eating Seven Three and directly copying Merus's abilities (NOT absorbing them), who has power Mimicry beyond anything we've seen before. He's even been able to copy genetic abilities like Namekian Gigantification and Back Quills, which would normally be impossible for obvious reasons.

He also directly copied Vegeta for his God Ki as well.

Even if we assume GTku is hundreds or even thousands of times more skilled than Vegeta, learning God Ki and Super Saiyan God would take him hours, which is not enough time to survive Superku's onslaught. I also want to mention that Vegeta has Power Mimicry himself (he saw Krillin's Destructo Disc a single time and is the first person to actually use it successfully). I find it extremely difficult to believe that GTku can master God Ki just from seeing it once

I think if he got it from absorption he could. But doing it separately from observation? Not really.

The only real way he can potentially learn it immediately is by absorbing Superku's ki attacks, except again I find it unlikely that he can do this without Super Saiyan 4

Agreed in terms of incapable of replication without absorbing God Ki. I just think that—Given Goku can absorb Ki and it’s never indicated to be SSJ4 specific (at least not overtly), he should be fine. I mean, GTku’s body literally absorbed the 4 Star Ball (and purified the Negative Karma in it) in base. Not the same as absorbing Ki, of course, but he literally observed a literal foreign object and its evil energy in his body and purified it. It didn’t get included into his own energy pool/make him stronger, but it still is energy and physical integration on some level. That was him exhausted in Base. I don’t think saying that GTku, who demonstrably has absorbed the Ki of an enemy against Baby, and performs a similar (yet still different) feat in the Shadow Dragons Saga, being capable of energy absorption is a wild statement to make.

 

[Mickey1940]

While I agree closing your eyes definitely works and mentioned that myself, (and ignoring what you hear), as mentioned by Granolah, cellular processes (transference of information) still applies in PUI. It’s just altered. So effectively, if Goku sees “incorrectly” his PUI will react perfectly to that incorrect information, because UI and PUI still include cellular processes (and thus transference of information). Though, again, closing his eyes should work.

He'd see something but then he'd sense something else. Most dragon ball characters in this key tend to act upon what they sense way more than what they see, especially Goku in this key, as UI can still attack people even if they're in his blindspots. Although what you say has merit, it's more likely UI acts upon his sensing moreso than what he sees. Not to mention, as shown against Moro, Goku can see through illusions pretty quick

Superku would have to know that GTku can’t sense him to employ that strategy. Which sounds like a weird stipulation, but like, lots of people with ordinary Ki can sense God Ki. Given GTku will fight as if he CAN sense Superku, and Superku knows of ordinary Ki Users who can, he’d just assume that GTku can. It would only be after employing Instant Transmission would he realize something’s amiss (if he even does, because…

…GTku’s training is more advanced, but still presented as the fundamentals and basics. Arguing he’d have to intensely struggle and think to perform his sensory mechanism is tantamount to saying Superku would need to actively utilize his awareness of air currents, when that’s presented as explicitly a fundamental he’s kind of just…always doing thanks to Popo.)

Although you are correct about mortals being able to sense Gods (literally just Dende, who holds a deific position. Frieza and Trunk could also do this after unlocking Golden Frieza and SSJ Rage respectively, but that's in the anime, not the manga), this doesn't really change Superku's strategy. He still does employ Instant Transmission pretty often in a lot of his fights, and he'd likely pick up on GTku's lack of God Ki sensing inherently. Not to mention, the vast majority of Superku's enemies cannot sense God Ki at all (literally only Frieza), so it's more likely that he'd believe GTku CAN'T sense him compared to believing that he CAN

As for the second part, yeah I agree it's more advanced and it's something he naturally does, but losing track of Superku after an Instant Transmission is bound to cause "Wait where'd he go" situations more often than not, which is something Superku is skilled enough to exploit. You were the one who mentioned that every instance matters in this fight, but Superku is the only one here that can literally spam that situation very easily

Also, checking over GT again, eventually in GT Ki Sensing somehow got good enough to sense the Ki of Androids, actually. Which leads credence to being able to work around it.

Again, he never even got to try. And looking over the Sub, (because I remembered from that instance of someone plagiarizing my blog), Goku claims he’s actually going to do just that—Sense Super 17, that is.

oh
well
can you link the episode where this happens?

because on one hand this would be insane since this actually does give GTku layered sensing beyond Superku's resistance
On the other hand:
1. GTku STILL lost track of Super 17 during this fight. If he was able to sense him at all times since he's "always doing so thanks to Popo's training" why would he start trying to sense him now? It feels weird to me that he has to "manually turn it on" since it definitely should be something he can just do
2. Super 17 doesn't even have resistance to Ki Sense on his profile
3. The androids in Toei are capable of contributing to Goku's spirit bomb in the Buu saga, which wouldn't normally be possible without regular ki. Maybe this might be a Toei thing? (and also a DBS anime thing since 17 and 18 contributed to the spirit bomb in the ToP while he never used it in the manga)

I might need to do more research on this, and Super 17's profile might need to be readjusted

Agreed, because…GTku can’t teleport in this key.

that makes me lean towards Superku even more. If GTku can't teleport that's a problem

Technically true, but it’s never been implied to be unique to SSJ4.

The weird thing about this is that ki absorption seems to be an innate aspect of Toei ki in general, just like nullification and redirection. However, no other character other than Goku has ever shown this ability in the series, and only Super Saiyan 4 was able to absorb OTHER people's attacks. Ki has been used against GTku many many MANY times throughout the series yet this ability has only worked against Baby, so I don't think it's something he can do without Super Saiyan 4 and it also isn't particularly in character, especially since Superku isn't stronger than GTku according to the scaling chain (which I disagree with but that's a thread for another day)

Again, false. There’s also absorbing Ki from Piccolo to utilize the Kaioken x 100 in the Lord Slug movie and absorbing the Z-Fighters Ki in the Broly LSSJ movie. Though in those instances the Ki was also given by them. But also…

…in GT, he absorbs Ki twice in Base. Again, both instances are “given”, but it’s still showings of foreign Ki being fine. Those being Piccolo’s Ki to transcend his kid body for Instant Transmission, and the Ki of the Saiyans to prep for the battle against Omega Shenron.

You said it yourself: Those guys all gave it to him in the Z movies. Superku also received energy from Vegeta's Spirit Bomb against Moro, so even if this were considererd absorption (which it isn't), Superku can do that too.
In GT, Piccolo also gave him his ki to teleport, and the Ki of the Saiyans was used to teleport a short distance by absorbing a "tiny bit of their ki", which not only are the Saiyans (and Uub) all more than willing to give him their ki, but they didn't make him any stronger, not to mention that's a different key, since that happened against Omega Shenron
GTku absorbing a "tiny bit of foreign ki" from Superku isn't really going to amount to anything if that's his limit without Super Saiyan 4

I…never said he did…?

I think you did in the last thread but ig it doesn't matter at this point

More specifically, he transcended ordinary life and death in Dragon Ball. Dying and becoming some “other” state, essentially finally gaining enlightenment (thematically), and was taken to “the realm of the gods” after defeating Omega.

i mean sure but not only is that a different key but that also doesn't really help here? What specifically happened to Goku during that moment has been up for speculation for decades, and assuming he can replicate this here would be way too complicated and speculative

Again, this is just not the case in the Granolah Saga. Goku straight up says he’s on a timer, Granolah says he was watching and say that the effectiveness was dropping dramatically over time, and the arc even starts with Whis saying to “save it for emergencies” to “break his limits.” Hell, the narrative through-line he gets by the end of the Saga is “his own version” of Ultra Instinct, that can use emotion, because Goku is innately emotional (and that the emotionless variant is him just copying Whis), which is why he “invents” TUI. Explicitly, what he did with Moro can’t be replicated here. If you wanted some explanation to make this make sense, it’s likely that Merus’ death acted as an X-Factor to Goku, where he felt an unstated calmness to live up to a legacy rather than his natural state, which—As posited by the Granolah Saga—Is emotional.

What he did with Moro literally isn't anything special. He's just using Ultra Instinct. Against Granolah, the only reason why he beat Goku as quickly as he did was because he stabbed him in the vitals SEVERAL times over the course of their fight AND was just generally taking damage cuz Granolah was stronger than his lesser God forms. Heck, when he used UI against Granolah he'd already taken damage from the clone poking him where the sun don't shine. Against Moro, after being fully healed and back at full stamina, he beat Moro's *ss, detransformed to convince him to give up, retransformed again to beat him up AGAIN, Moro transformed by stealing Merus's energy, Goku beat him up AGAIN, Moro fused with earth and got even stronger, Goku was beating him up AGAIN, tried to go for the finishing blow but couldn't power through Moro's giant earth hands to hit his crystal and blatantly got his energy stolen.

GTku can't exactly stab his vitals over and over to force Superku to detransform. The stamina issue really isn't that big of a deal than you think, especially since landing hits is going to be a chore to begin with.

I don’t think he could replicate it independently. I think he could just absorb the God Ki (as we’ve seen him do to other energy attacks) and just copy the principles of Superku’s energy control to get a handle on God Ki.

read above, also like I said this would take way too long. Vegeta in Super was only able to achieve the form after a year and 4 months of training, even though he was living on Beerus's planet, being constantly exposed to God Ki, and explicitly taught how to use and feel the ki by actual gods. GTku in this situation is actively fighting someone who's trying to kill him, which makes the learning aspect way harder even with constant exposure and potential absorption.

I think if he got it from absorption he could. But doing it separately from observation? Not really.

yeah that's exactly the problem. He'd actually need to rely on absorption for this to work, and even then it's contention because it doesn't seem to be easy. Even Frieza needed 4 months to be able to... well sense ki in general but god ki too. Expecting GTku to do so in a couple of minutes seems unrealistic.

Agreed in terms of incapable of replication without absorbing God Ki. I just think that—Given Goku can absorb Ki and it’s never indicated to be SSJ4 specific (at least not overtly), he should be fine. I mean, GTku’s body literally absorbed the 4 Star Ball (and purified the Negative Karma in it) in base. Not the same as absorbing Ki, of course, but he literally observed a literal foreign object and its evil energy in his body and purified it. It didn’t get included into his own energy pool/make him stronger, but it still is energy and physical integration on some level. That was him exhausted in Base. I don’t think saying that GTku, who demonstrably has absorbed the Ki of an enemy against Baby, and performs a similar (yet still different) feat in the Shadow Dragons Saga, being capable of energy absorption is a wild statement to make.

The only actual instance of absorption people have mentioned in this battle (and on the Dragon Ball Wiki, you can go check) is Goku absorbing the Spirit Bomb in the Super Android 13 Movie, and Goku absorbing the Revenge Death Ball Final against Baby, which the former is his own attack that he gathered through a technique and the latter was only accomplished in a different form. Outside of Super Saiyan 4, the only example we see of Goku actively using foreign ki is when he saved the Saiyans from Omega Shenron by teleporting, which he was only able to absorb a "tiny bit", the Saiyans weren't actively attacking him, and they also WANTED to be saved in that situation.

I'm not saying he isn't able to do it, but I'm saying that actively absorbing the ki of an enemy you can't sense to begin with and is actively trying to kill you is indeed a wild statement to make

 

[RedReaper616]

He'd see something but then he'd sense something else. Most dragon ball characters in this key tend to act upon what they sense way more than what they see, especially Goku in this key, as UI can still attack people even if they're in his blindspots. Although what you say has merit, it's more likely UI acts upon his sensing moreso than what he sees. Not to mention, as shown against Moro, Goku can see through illusions pretty quick

Fair, though again, not sure on the illusions. Toeiku can see through them too (as seen in Dragon Ball filler), but it’s not treated as the same as Toei Ki’s passives. It’s something I’ll have to look into.

Although you are correct about mortals being able to sense Gods (literally just Dende, who holds a deific position. Frieza and Trunk could also do this after unlocking Golden Frieza and SSJ Rage respectively, but that's in the anime, not the manga), this doesn't really change Superku's strategy.

In the Manga, it’s not just Frieza. You also have Granolah, Moro, and Gas. I also faintly remember Jiren and Hit? But I know for sure those 3, because Moro’s ability to sense God Ki not working on MUI is part of the justification I myself wrote for layered God Ki Sensing, and the G’s explicitly sense the God Ki of Goku and Vegeta to use IT.

He still does employ Instant Transmission pretty often in a lot of his fights,

Sorta? Him and Vegeta viewed the spamming of it for fights like Granolah and Gas do as kind of dumb and he even took the piss on Gas for doing it, literally making him teleport in manure and a shower to prove how bad that is. Not saying he doesn’t use it in fights, he does, but even from his perspective there’s a level of intelligence to it that goes beyond “constant use.”

and he'd likely pick up on GTku's lack of God Ki sensing inherently.

This is true. That momentary lapse of perception will be noticed. I just don’t think Superku would start with that strategy and instead have to figure it out once he casts IT and notices the lapse.

Not to mention, the vast majority of Superku's enemies cannot sense God Ki at all (literally only Frieza), so it's more likely that he'd believe GTku CAN'T sense him compared to believing that he CAN

Already talked about this.

As for the second part, yeah I agree it's more advanced and it's something he naturally does, but losing track of Superku after an Instant Transmission is bound to cause "Wait where'd he go" situations more often than not, which is something Superku is skilled enough to exploit. You were the one who mentioned that every instance matters in this fight, but Superku is the only one here that can literally spam that situation very easily

Correct.

oh
well
can you link the episode where this happens?

Trunks senses 17 in Episode 42, and Goku claims he will in Episode 46.

because on one hand this would be insane since this actually does give GTku layered sensing beyond Superku's resistance
On the other hand:
1. GTku STILL lost track of Super 17 during this fight. If he was able to sense him at all times since he's "always doing so thanks to Popo's training" why would he start trying to sense him now? It feels weird to me that he has to "manually turn it on" since it definitely should be something he can just do

Plot, I guess? It’s double strange because even in GT, Goku could sense the Ki of the Sigma Force despite being suppressed to AVOID being sensed, and he did it passively. Like, he noticed automatically, and Pan and Trunks did not even notice at all, and they should also have similar (better, honestly) Ki Sensing Mastery than Z Goku. It could be that Super 17, who combines the Machine Mutant tech (allowing to hide from even that crazy Ki Sense) with that of the Androids (self-explanatory) created an extra level of hiding? Momentarily?

2. Super 17 doesn't even have resistance to Ki Sense on his profile

Yeah, I intended to fix S.17 Profile after I finished overhauling Baby’s. I just never got around to it due to personal life.

3. The androids in Toei are capable of contributing to Goku's spirit bomb in the Buu saga, which wouldn't normally be possible without regular ki. Maybe this might be a Toei thing? (and also a DBS anime thing since 17 and 18 contributed to the spirit bomb in the ToP while he never used it in the manga)

No, this also happens in the Manga.

I might need to do more research on this, and Super 17's profile might need to be readjusted

Yeah, he does.

that makes me lean towards Superku even more. If GTku can't teleport that's a problem

More specifically, he CAN, but only within a couple meters. Something about his Kid Body made using IT impossible beyond traveling a few feet around himself, so he had to wait until getting SSJ4 to get IT back.

The weird thing about this is that ki absorption seems to be an innate aspect of Toei ki in general, just like nullification and redirection. However, no other character other than Goku has ever shown this ability in the series, and only Super Saiyan 4 was able to absorb OTHER people's attacks.

Yeah, that’s why I only gave Goku it despite the fact it seems that way when we made the Ki Page.

Ki has been used against GTku many many MANY times throughout the series yet this ability has only worked against Baby, so I don't think it's something he can do without Super Saiyan 4 and it also isn't particularly in character, especially since Superku isn't stronger than GTku according to the scaling chain (which I disagree with but that's a thread for another day)

To be fair, GT Goku only struggles in a fight he can’t win before this 3 times. Once against Luud, who is a Machine Mutant (and absorbed Pan), once against Baby Vegeta, who was comparable to as a SSJ3, and he went SSJ3 without even knowing his body was incapable of handling it), and once against Baby Vegeta 2-3, which happened while he was too brutalized to save himself against a ludicrously stronger foe against the original Revenge Death Ball. Also when he returns and gets defeated by Baby again while misjudging his own strength. What I’m saying is that the foes he’s faced before that have at least some form of excuse to prevent him from trying. His foe had absorbed his Granddaughter, so risky, he thought he could handle BV, he was thrashed, and he thought he could handle BV3. It’s only by the time he’s a SSJ4 that he’s in any position to abuse it, and there’s no point in doing so before Oozaru Baby (and even for a bit during Baby’s transformation, because he thinks Baby’s gone feral and incapable of properly using his powers). By the time Goku realizes Baby is sapient, he’s caught off guard and expended a bunch of Ki. Then he’s too thrashed again while Baby is recharged. When he’s back up and running and rematches Baby at their peak, he then absorbs the RDBF.

So he’s all clear there. The foes after are Super 17 (who doesn’t exactly use absorbable Ki) and the Shadow Dragons, which utilize Negative Karma-Energy (though not implied to not be absorbable, it is demonstrated to weaken and poison, Haze Shenron), and Goku took those on in a gauntlet. Only really getting rest and food for Oceanus Shenron.

You said it yourself: Those guys all gave it to him in the Z movies. Superku also received energy from Vegeta's Spirit Bomb against Moro, so even if this were considererd absorption (which it isn't), Superku can do that too.

Fair.

In GT, Piccolo also gave him his ki to teleport,

That’s what I mean by breaking his body’s limit.

and the Ki of the Saiyans was used to teleport a short distance by absorbing a "tiny bit of their ki", which not only are the Saiyans (and Uub) all more than willing to give him their ki, but they didn't make him any stronger, not to mention that's a different key, since that happened against Omega Shenron

To be fair, it’s not implied he didn’t get stronger. Just that what he saved them with wasn’t hyper crazy.

GTku absorbing a "tiny bit of foreign ki" from Superku isn't really going to amount to anything if that's his limit without Super Saiyan 4

I mean, it’s not implied to be. Even then, I feel like gaining a LITTLE bit of God Ki is frankly worth a lot here. Again, PUI’s residuals aren’t “tiny”. They’re likely worth more than SSG BoG Goku at max. Besides that, it would likely mitigate the God Ki sensing issue entirely.

i mean sure but not only is that a different key but that also doesn't really help here? What specifically happened to Goku during that moment has been up for speculation for decades, and assuming he can replicate this here would be way too complicated and speculative

Oh, I’m not saying he could. I’m just explaining what happened. Like I said, I never made any Omega Shenron arguments.

What he did with Moro literally isn't anything special. He's just using Ultra Instinct. Against Granolah, the only reason why he beat Goku as quickly as he did was because he stabbed him in the vitals SEVERAL times over the course of their fight AND was just generally taking damage cuz Granolah was stronger than his lesser God forms. Heck, when he used UI against Granolah he'd already taken damage from the clone poking him where the sun don't shine.

This doesn’t change the statements made by Goku or Granolah. We know what the form is like. Goku himself says that the form has incredibly limited stamina. While yes, what he did against Moro IS impressive, it’s not the only factor. As of now, Goku struggles with stamina. It is what it is.

GTku can't exactly stab his vitals over and over to force Superku to detransform. The stamina issue really isn't that big of a deal than you think, especially since landing hits is going to be a chore to begin with.

Except that PUI gets less accurate over time at a dramatic rate. Plus, if GTku gets that amp from God Ki, the instance with Gohan can be replicated.

read above, also like I said this would take way too long. Vegeta in Super was only able to achieve the form after a year and 4 months of training, even though he was living on Beerus's planet, being constantly exposed to God Ki, and explicitly taught how to use and feel the ki by actual gods. GTku in this situation is actively fighting someone who's trying to kill him, which makes the learning aspect way harder even with constant exposure and potential absorption.

We just disagree fundamentally here, honestly.

yeah that's exactly the problem. He'd actually need to rely on absorption for this to work, and even then it's contention because it doesn't seem to be easy. Even Frieza needed 4 months to be able to... well sense ki in general but god ki too. Expecting GTku to do so in a couple of minutes seems unrealistic.

Superku was instantly able to sense God Ki and use it upon getting SSG. The issue was proper application of God Ki (alongside waste and mastery over the energy even without being a SSG). Problems GTku half solved with his tail eliminating energy waste/reducing form strain to 0 and can fix by copying Superku.

I'm not saying he isn't able to do it, but I'm saying that actively absorbing the ki of an enemy you can't sense to begin with and is actively trying to kill you is indeed a wild statement to make

Problem is that not being able to sense God Ki doesn’t change that it’s perfectly interactable. It’s not beyond interaction or absorption. Even when Moro COULDN’T SENSE UI, his Ki Absorption still was capable of affecting Superku. Sure, his is magic, but he also still directly integrates the energy into himself, same with 7-3’s Copy (hence why taking Merus power was going to cause his detonation). By all accounts, energy interaction is possible. God Ki clashes with ordinary Canon Ki all the time with no issue. In order for GTku to not be capable of absorbing it, you’d have to ignore everything that shows it can be interacted with. Which, you know, cannot. Or (as you are doing), assert GTku hasn’t got the power yet. (But nothing implies he hadn’t. It’s not treated as a new power, it’s something Goku randomly does to properly defeat Baby).

 

[Mickey1940]

Fair, though again, not sure on the illusions. Toeiku can see through them too (as seen in Dragon Ball filler), but it’s not treated as the same as Toei Ki’s passives. It’s something I’ll have to look into.

fair

In the Manga, it’s not just Frieza. You also have Granolah, Moro, and Gas. I also faintly remember Jiren and Hit? But I know for sure those 3, because Moro’s ability to sense God Ki not working on MUI is part of the justification I myself wrote for layered God Ki Sensing, and the G’s explicitly sense the God Ki of Goku and Vegeta to use IT.

As far as I remember, Frieza actually can't sense god ki in the manga. Granolah and Gas both wished from the Dragon Balls in order to use god like abilities like Hakai, so I think their ability to sense God Ki is also from the Dragon Balls. Jiren and Hit I don't think were explicitly stated to be able to sense God Ki. And Moro has always been able to sense God Ki even millions of years ago before he got arrested. It's a weird thing
and yeah I agree Moro being unable to sense UI Goku is layered God Ki SEnsing

Sorta? Him and Vegeta viewed the spamming of it for fights like Granolah and Gas do as kind of dumb and he even took the piss on Gas for doing it, literally making him teleport in manure and a shower to prove how bad that is. Not saying he doesn’t use it in fights, he does, but even from his perspective there’s a level of intelligence to it that goes beyond “constant use.”

I mean, if Superku figures out that GTku can't actually track him after a teleportation, it'd be safe to assume that Superku would use it more often since if it ain't broke don't fix it
but yeah it's not straight up TP spamming, but he has shown to be able to use it often in most if not all of his fights

This is true. That momentary lapse of perception will be noticed. I just don’t think Superku would start with that strategy and instead have to figure it out once he casts IT and notices the lapse.

This is true, but again once he does notice there's nothing stopping him from just doing it again and again. GTku actually just has no answer to that
using IT is very in character for both Gokus to do

Already talked about this.

Not really. Most enemies Goku fights aren't confirmed to be able to sense him unless they say so themselves or ALSO use god ki (like Beerus and Goku Black). It's pretty safe to assume that most of his opponents can't sense him since most of his opponents usually don't. Not to mention, even if he DOESN assume GTku CAN sense him, he can figure out pretty quick that GTku in fact can't via a multitude of factors (like teleportation)

Trunks senses 17 in Episode 42, and Goku claims he will in Episode 46.

Plot, I guess? It’s double strange because even in GT, Goku could sense the Ki of the Sigma Force despite being suppressed to AVOID being sensed, and he did it passively. Like, he noticed automatically, and Pan and Trunks did not even notice at all, and they should also have similar (better, honestly) Ki Sensing Mastery than Z Goku. It could be that Super 17, who combines the Machine Mutant tech (allowing to hide from even that crazy Ki Sense) with that of the Androids (self-explanatory) created an extra level of hiding? Momentarily?

Yeah, I intended to fix S.17 Profile after I finished overhauling Baby’s. I just never got around to it due to personal life.

So tldr:
Trunks: Layered sensing cuz he can sense Androids
Sigma Force: Layered hiding cuz they hid from Trunks
GTku: Layered LAYERED sensing cuz he can sense Sigma Force

meanwhile:
God Ki: Hiding cuz they can't be sensed by any mortal
Moro (and other characters): Layered sensing cuz they can sense God Ki
Superku: Layered hiding cuz he can't be sensed by Moro

So on paper this makes it seem like GTku can just sense God Ki since he has a layer of extra sensing

In practice a couple of issues arise:
1. I watched Episode 42, and Trunks is looking right at 17 when this happens. It might be a translation error, but it seems to me that, in that scene, Trunks is looking at 17, realizes he can't sense jack shit, and then claims he's just like 18. I'd be more inclined to believe that Trunk can just straight up sense Androids if he was sensing him from far away, but no, 17 is a couple meters away from him and he's looking right at him. I'm gonna scour the DB wiki and other sources to verify this
2. If Super 17 had an "extra level of hiding", GTku basically just trying harder wouldn't do anything, so I don't think this is really the case. Having "less nothing" to sense doesn't really give you layered layered layered hiding

I just find it strange that GT just pulls this sh*t out of their *ss since the androids were consistently stated in literally every form of DB media (including Toei DB and Z) to be completely unsensible with the exception of just Cell since he's a bio-android and thus is explicitly stated to have normal ki, not to mention Goku's fight with Super 17 also contradicts this since he still couldn't actually sense Super 17 during the entire fight, with him only claiming and failing to do so during it. I do want to revisit this later

No, this also happens in the Manga.

ah fair enough

More specifically, he CAN, but only within a couple meters. Something about his Kid Body made using IT impossible beyond traveling a few feet around himself, so he had to wait until getting SSJ4 to get IT back.

yeah I know, I saw it on his profile. That's still going to be annoying cuz a couple feet in a DB fight is REALLY short

Yeah, that’s why I only gave Goku it despite the fact it seems that way when we made the Ki Page.

the profile for Toei Ki should probably be adjusted then, since this seems like a Goku-specific thing

To be fair, GT Goku only struggles in a fight he can’t win before this 3 times. Once against Luud, who is a Machine Mutant (and absorbed Pan), once against Baby Vegeta, who was comparable to as a SSJ3, and he went SSJ3 without even knowing his body was incapable of handling it), and once against Baby Vegeta 2-3, which happened while he was too brutalized to save himself against a ludicrously stronger foe against the original Revenge Death Ball. Also when he returns and gets defeated by Baby again while misjudging his own strength. What I’m saying is that the foes he’s faced before that have at least some form of excuse to prevent him from trying. His foe had absorbed his Granddaughter, so risky, he thought he could handle BV, he was thrashed, and he thought he could handle BV3. It’s only by the time he’s a SSJ4 that he’s in any position to abuse it, and there’s no point in doing so before Oozaru Baby (and even for a bit during Baby’s transformation, because he thinks Baby’s gone feral and incapable of properly using his powers). By the time Goku realizes Baby is sapient, he’s caught off guard and expended a bunch of Ki. Then he’s too thrashed again while Baby is recharged. When he’s back up and running and rematches Baby at their peak, he then absorbs the RDBF.

None of these fights give Goku ANY excuse to NOT absorb Ki attacks. Goku has never been shown to absorb ki as easily or efficiently as Android 19/20, and he's still never been shown to absorb completely foreign ki without Super Saiyan 4, and even WITH Super Saiyan 4 he doesn't even do this. Even when pushed to his absolute limits against Super 17, the lesser Shenrons, and Omega Shenron, he's never been able to do this

I just think there are enough anti-feats in the series to show that either he straight up can't do it without Super Saiyan 4, or it's not in character for him to do this at all, even if he's about to lose

So he’s all clear there. The foes after are Super 17 (who doesn’t exactly use absorbable Ki) and the Shadow Dragons, which utilize Negative Karma-Energy (though not implied to not be absorbable, it is demonstrated to weaken and poison, Haze Shenron), and Goku took those on in a gauntlet. Only really getting rest and food for Oceanus Shenron.

The Shadow Dragons have never been stated in any media to have particularly unique or otherwise nonstandard ki besides Omega Shenron who actually has corrosive/weakening Negative Energy on his profile, and like you said, they've never said their ki can't be absorbed. As for Super 17, he absorbed Goku's ki and therefore should be able to throw it back at Goku, yet Goku wasn't able to nullify or absorb it himself despite it actually being his. It's just really weird and inconsistent

That’s what I mean by breaking his body’s limit.

To be fair, it’s not implied he didn’t get stronger. Just that what he saved them with wasn’t hyper crazy.

I mean, it’s not implied to be. Even then, I feel like gaining a LITTLE bit of God Ki is frankly worth a lot here. Again, PUI’s residuals aren’t “tiny”. They’re likely worth more than SSG BoG Goku at max. Besides that, it would likely mitigate the God Ki sensing issue entirely.

1. when Goku saved the saiyans through IT, he didn't actually get stronger from it, he just had better teleportation to bypass his child body's limits. He's never used this with an enemy's ki
2. The Saiyans were BLASTING ki around them, yet Goku was only able to absorb "a tiny bit". So I don't think absorbing Superku's residuals will do anything here since "absorbing a tiny bit" has been shown to not increase his stats
3. Why would gaining a little Godly ki be "worth a lot"? Superku isn't stronger than GTku in this fight, and Godly Ki isn't inherently STRONGER than normal ki, it just can't be sensed. Just look at Shin. He has Godly Ki yet he's barely stronger than Piccolo in the Buu saga. Absorbing a little bit of Godly Ki won't do anything beyond potentially allowing him to sense Superku, which at the end of the day doesn't actually do much besides help him track Superku better after teleportation. I'm gonna be honest, I don't think we needed to discuss GTku's ki sensing or Toei ki here since it's a very small part of the debate, and I'm sorry for wasting your time on that front. It doesn't really matter whether or not GTku can sense Superku at the end of the day since it's not relevant

This doesn’t change the statements made by Goku or Granolah. We know what the form is like. Goku himself says that the form has incredibly limited stamina. While yes, what he did against Moro IS impressive, it’s not the only factor. As of now, Goku struggles with stamina. It is what it is.

Granolah's statement: "UI drops in accuracy some time after using it"

What actually happened: Goku didn't get weaker after using UI for that long. His accuracy just dropped enough for Granolah, who's biology and kit allows him to specifically pinpoint weak points AND was the strongest in the universe at the time and was therefore stronger than UI Goku, was able to exploit. GTku can't do this, so Granolah's statement shouldn't even apply to him

Goku's statement: "I can't use this very long so I gotta make this quick"

What actually happened: Disproven by the Moro fight, the Gas fight, and the Beast Gohan fight. Goku was able to turn UI on and off several times with no drawback and even adapt to Gas by using True UI (which is a dumbass name ngl). Even if we take it at face value, Goku was able to use the form for several minutes with no drawback and no fatigue in ALL of his fights, only really losing ground after actually taking massive damage. However, Gtku can't exploit this since UI provides significantly better defensive AND offensive abilities compared to GTku's general kit, so GTku would be taking a LOT more damage here.

Heck, UI can harden his body at will. Even if he does get caught off guard by whatever happens and his limbs are receiving contradictory information, just hardening his body is more than enough to reduce damage. GTku meanwhile has to actively block and use thought to dodge which is blatantly inefficient (and before you say GTku has instinctive action so he can match UI, Superku also has Instinctive Action before UI and yet not only was his previous experience completely useless in his UI training, but UI actively improves this ability to an unfathomable degree. I guess you can think about this as "layered instinctive action" I suppose)

Except that PUI gets less accurate over time at a dramatic rate. Plus, if GTku gets that amp from God Ki, the instance with Gohan can be replicated.

Except it doesn't and he doesn't. Even if what happened with Gohan can be replicated, there's nothing stopping him from just using Hakai at that point and then everything would be for naught

We just disagree fundamentally here, honestly.

you yourself admitted that simple observation wouldn't be enough for GTku to understand God Ki, and other characters in DB like Vegeta couldn't get a grasp on it until over a y ear even with constant exposure and active training. It's not going to be a simple as "oh Superku exists on the field for 5 seconds lemme just absorb his residuals so I can use his powers now"

Superku was instantly able to sense God Ki and use it upon getting SSG. The issue was proper application of God Ki (alongside waste and mastery over the energy even without being a SSG). Problems GTku half solved with his tail eliminating energy waste/reducing form strain to 0 and can fix by copying Superku.

Superku, upon artificially getting a Godly form by being injected with the ki of 5 other Saiyans, AND having said ki transform inside him, can sense God Ki

yeah that makes a lot of sense don't you think

As for the proper application thing, where is that ever stated?

Problem is that not being able to sense God Ki doesn’t change that it’s perfectly interactable. It’s not beyond interaction or absorption. Even when Moro COULDN’T SENSE UI, his Ki Absorption still was capable of affecting Superku. Sure, his is magic, but he also still directly integrates the energy into himself, same with 7-3’s Copy (hence why taking Merus power was going to cause his detonation). By all accounts, energy interaction is possible. God Ki clashes with ordinary Canon Ki all the time with no issue. In order for GTku to not be capable of absorbing it, you’d have to ignore everything that shows it can be interacted with. Which, you know, cannot. Or (as you are doing), assert GTku hasn’t got the power yet. (But nothing implies he hadn’t. It’s not treated as a new power, it’s something Goku randomly does to properly defeat Baby).

My argument isn't that GTku can't interact with God Ki and thus can't absorb it

My argument is:
1. GTku has very inconsistent showing with absorption in general, especially without Super Saiyan 4
2. Even if we assume he CAN absorb it, most of Superku's ki he's being exposed to is in the form of GIANT ENERGY LASERS THAT ARE VAPORISING HIM.
3. Outside of Super Saiyan 4, he has never been shown to absorb the ki of something that is actively causing harm to him, ESPECIALLY if Superku starts using Hakai. Even WITH Super Saiyan 4, he doesn't use it to just sponge ki attacks all the time like a black hole
4. Even if we assume that Superku's Kamehamehas CAN be absorbed, Superku literally never uses ki attacks in this form. It's actually ridiculous. Once Goku unlocked Mastered UI against Moro the literal only thing he's ever done is punches and kicks. So even then I don't think it'd be super applicable

 

[RedReaper616]

fair

Cool.

As far as I remember, Frieza actually can't sense god ki in the manga. Granolah and Gas both wished from the Dragon Balls in order to use god like abilities like Hakai, so I think their ability to sense God Ki is also from the Dragon Balls.

Well, they wished for their full potential to be the strongest with the EXCEPTION of the Gods, and this gave them basically every learnable ability we’ve seen. That said, this doesn’t change that they sensed Superku, (with ordinary Ki, hence why his Hakai is “similar but different”), so in his eyes others doing that isn’t outlandish.

Jiren and Hit I don't think were explicitly stated to be able to sense God Ki. And Moro has always been able to sense God Ki even millions of years ago before he got arrested. It's a weird thing
and yeah I agree Moro being unable to sense UI Goku is layered God Ki SEnsing

Yeah. I’m just using him as an example alongside the G’s to point out Goku has fought bare minimum 3 non-God Ki Users who can sense God Ki. So GTku keeping up with him sense-wise until he teleports would not register as weird.

I mean, if Superku figures out that GTku can't actually track him after a teleportation, it'd be safe to assume that Superku would use it more often since if it ain't broke don't fix it
but yeah it's not straight up TP spamming, but he has shown to be able to use it often in most if not all of his fights

Agreed.

This is true, but again once he does notice there's nothing stopping him from just doing it again and again. GTku actually just has no answer to that
using IT is very in character for both Gokus to do

Agreed.

Not really. Most enemies Goku fights aren't confirmed to be able to sense him unless they say so themselves or ALSO use god ki (like Beerus and Goku Black). It's pretty safe to assume that most of his opponents can't sense him since most of his opponents usually don't. Not to mention, even if he DOESN assume GTku CAN sense him, he can figure out pretty quick that GTku in fact can't via a multitude of factors (like teleportation)

I don’t think he’d assume it’s weird when it’s happened before at least 3 different times. But I do agree teleporting would alert him to it anyway.

So tldr:
Trunks: Layered sensing cuz he can sense Androids
Sigma Force: Layered hiding cuz they hid from Trunks
GTku: Layered LAYERED sensing cuz he can sense Sigma Force

meanwhile:
God Ki: Hiding cuz they can't be sensed by any mortal
Moro (and other characters): Layered sensing cuz they can sense God Ki
Superku: Layered hiding cuz he can't be sensed by Moro

Essentially. Part of this is actually accepted in the GTku profile already—That is, the Sigma Force bit. What isn’t is the Super 17 Saga stuff.

So on paper this makes it seem like GTku can just sense God Ki since he has a layer of extra sensing

In practice a couple of issues arise:
1. I watched Episode 42, and Trunks is looking right at 17 when this happens. It might be a translation error, but it seems to me that, in that scene, Trunks is looking at 17, realizes he can't sense jack shit, and then claims he's just like 18. I'd be more inclined to believe that Trunk can just straight up sense Androids if he was sensing him from far away, but no, 17 is a couple meters away from him and he's looking right at him. I'm gonna scour the DB wiki and other sources to verify this

From what I understand the translation is accurate, because when Null went and got a Transcript of an episode from the Baby Saga for the Revenge Death Ball, (as well as other episodes), the exact kanji meanings matched the outcome of the Subtitles. Of course, that doesn’t mean it can’t be wrong, but the fact it is usually right indicates to me that it’s more likely than not correct.

2. If Super 17 had an "extra level of hiding", GTku basically just trying harder wouldn't do anything, so I don't think this is really the case. Having "less nothing" to sense doesn't really give you layered layered layered hiding

Yeah, I agree. I’m just trying to make sense of it in general.

I just find it strange that GT just pulls this sh*t out of their *ss since the androids were consistently stated in literally every form of DB media (including Toei DB and Z) to be completely unsensible with the exception of just Cell since he's a bio-android and thus is explicitly stated to have normal ki, not to mention Goku's fight with Super 17 also contradicts this since he still couldn't actually sense Super 17 during the entire fight, with him only claiming and failing to do so during it. I do want to revisit this later

That’s just how Toei works. Unironically. Like in Toei Master Roshi explained the Dragon Balls to originate from a bigger ball and then later Kami explains he made the Dragon Balls (the canon way) and you’re just kind of forced to reconcile these very broken pieces. Fortunately, that one is easy, (Master Roshi straight up said it was a legend, and thus was a story, not innately true). But like, obviously it wasn’t intended to be such when they wrote it. Similarly to how Deadzone can’t happen but MUST happen because Garlic Jr. Returns references it.

ah fair enough

Yeah.

yeah I know, I saw it on his profile. That's still going to be annoying cuz a couple feet in a DB fight is REALLY short

Mhm.

the profile for Toei Ki should probably be adjusted then, since this seems like a Goku-specific thing

Huh? I’m saying I agree it seems universal, but only Goku shows it, so I only gave it to Goku. It’s not on the Toei Ki Profile.

None of these fights give Goku ANY excuse to NOT absorb Ki attacks.

I mean there’s no need to do so when you’re winning (or THINK you’re stronger) and it’s hard to do when you’re so battered you’re dying. Post-Baby is where it mostly gets shaky.

Goku has never been shown to absorb ki as easily or efficiently as Android 19/20, and he's still never been shown to absorb completely foreign ki without Super Saiyan 4, and even WITH Super Saiyan 4 he doesn't even do this.

This is exaggerated. The Revenge Death Ball is utterly evil foreign Ki (made up of the entire Earth’s population as an Evil Spirit Bomb, basically), that warps space time while it also attempts to vaporize you. And if you account for the English Dub (I don’t, but just to include it as trivia), directly targets the psyche as well on top of that. Plus, if you take Baby (in the Sub, not Dub), at his word (and not assume it’s hyperbole) when he threw it, it affects on the atomic level. And the Revenge Death Ball Final is a stronger variant, magnified by his Golden Oozaru state. Goku can definitely absorb Foreign Ki. How efficiently is in question, but it’s presented as he just took in the power of the RDBF, so there’s no real reason to doubt it’s not fairly good.

Baby: “G-Goku, you mean you soaked up even the power of my Revenge Death Ball?!”

In other words, the totality of the attack’s power. (Episode 39, Sub).

Even when pushed to his absolute limits against Super 17, the lesser Shenrons, and Omega Shenron, he's never been able to do this

I don’t think he could absorb the artificial energy of an Android, but the Shenron’s are fair—In so far that he didn’t use it despite having the power.

I just think there are enough anti-feats in the series to show that either he straight up can't do it without Super Saiyan 4, or it's not in character for him to do this at all, even if he's about to lose

I mean, I’d consider it more an in-character thing than Anti-Feats. An Anti-Feat is more “I can’t use it” than “I don’t use it often.”

The Shadow Dragons have never been stated in any media to have particularly unique or otherwise nonstandard ki besides Omega Shenron who actually has corrosive/weakening Negative Energy on his profile—

Oh, that’s because their profiles are old + It’s related to the Toei Ki Page under “Negative Karma”. When introduced to Haze Shenron, he explains that the weakening effect we observe is actually just Negative Karma. Not even that his is unique or something, just that this is Minus Energy and this is just how it works. That almost beats them, they get fresh water/air, and then even when back in the Negative Karma mist, water, air, etc. they just are seemingly immune. Hell, when Omega overtly uses it, all the Saiyans are somehow immune and can use their powers, despite not experiencing it in the same way Goku and Pan did when they seemingly adapted to it, only as the general energy the Shadow Dragons use for their attacks.

Basically, as far as we know, it’s a passive to Negative Karma the Saiyans just adapted to. (COUGH The Writers Forgot COUGH). So absorbing it prior to adaptation would be a bad thing to do.

Then Goku got his Plus Energy Flow statement after that (meaning he purifies it) AND adapted to Negative Karma, so in theory he should be capable of absorbing it at that point. Hence why I said “technically…” and that it was kinda iffy.

and like you said, they've never said their ki can't be absorbed.

True.

As for Super 17, he absorbed Goku's ki and therefore should be able to throw it back at Goku, yet Goku wasn't able to nullify or absorb it himself despite it actually being his.

I mean 19/20 absorb Ki and it can’t be sensed/isn’t considered ordinary Ki anymore when integrated with them. Super 17 likely operates similarly, especially because he also has their Absorption Method on top of his Absorption Barrier (he just never used it). Which is like, really funny. He could absorb both in Hand to Hand and from afar. He just preferred Long Distance. (Though, he was also nerfed by the real Android 17 rebelling to the control from within, making him purposely leave himself open and fight worse).

It's just really weird and inconsistent

Fair.

1. when Goku saved the saiyans through IT, he didn't actually get stronger from it, he just had better teleportation to bypass his child body's limits. He's never used this with an enemy's ki

It’s never implied he doesn’t get stronger. The exchange is fairly simple.

Omega attacks, notices they’ve moved, and goes “Ah…Instant Movement, hm?”

Gohan says “So you saved us again, dad?”

And Goku just replies “That was a small bit of the Ki you guys gave me…” before taunting Omega Shenron.

It’s not implied it didn’t make him stronger. Nor is it implied he got stronger. Nothing is said to lean either direction.

2. The Saiyans were BLASTING ki around them, yet Goku was only able to absorb "a tiny bit". So I don't think absorbing Superku's residuals will do anything here since "absorbing a tiny bit" has been shown to not increase his stats

Again, read above.

3. Why would gaining a little Godly ki be "worth a lot"? Superku isn't stronger than GTku in this fight, and Godly Ki isn't inherently STRONGER than normal ki, it just can't be sensed.

I’d argue getting God Ki directly from someone with God Ki comparable to yourself is a lot different than just getting God Ki from like, Dende. Current Superku makes SSG BoG Goku look like a kid, and that’s probably what his residuals are like. And if GTku absorbs that, there’s no reason to assume he wouldn’t get Super Saiyan God like amps.

(Which admittedly aren’t as good as SSJ4, but still fairly impressive in the context of this fight, limited to just SSJ3).

Just look at Shin. He has Godly Ki yet he's barely stronger than Piccolo in the Buu saga. Absorbing a little bit of Godly Ki won't do anything beyond potentially allowing him to sense Superku, which at the end of the day doesn't actually do much besides help him track Superku better after teleportation.

Still helps.

I'm gonna be honest, I don't think we needed to discuss GTku's ki sensing or Toei ki here since it's a very small part of the debate, and I'm sorry for wasting your time on that front. It doesn't really matter whether or not GTku can sense Superku at the end of the day since it's not relevant

Tis be okay.

Granolah's statement: "UI drops in accuracy some time after using it"

What actually happened: Goku didn't get weaker after using UI for that long. His accuracy just dropped enough for Granolah, who's biology and kit allows him to specifically pinpoint weak points AND was the strongest in the universe at the time and was therefore stronger than UI Goku, was able to exploit. GTku can't do this, so Granolah's statement shouldn't even apply to him

It doesn’t matter/change the facts. UI gets worse over time. GTku doesn’t have to have uber precision to hit Goku when it gets bad enough to no longer be effective. Because he’s the one winning the war of attrition, as long as he lasts long enough the result is the same. Could be 3 manga pages, 6, 10, or 14. Superku has a form that decreases in effectiveness over time, and Granolah used that to hit Superku when he could capitalize on it. The only real difference is GTku might have to wait a bit longer to do the same.

Goku's statement: "I can't use this very long so I gotta make this quick"

What actually happened: Disproven by the Moro fight,

Which contextually is the outlier. Even if it isn’t, the fight could’ve honestly been incredibly short in real time. Regardless, the statement makes in the Granolah Saga holds more weight than Moro’s stuff, because it applies directly to the Goku we’re talking about (this key).

the Gas fight,

TUI is specifically different and supposed to be better to avoid the limits of UI’s cost. And he didn’t fight as PUI against Gas, because Vegeta told him off for trying to do so because he hadn’t actually shown growth between the last fight and now.

and the Beast Gohan fight.

He fought for a few pages in a spar and was smacked out the form. This also doesn’t prove it doesn’t have bad stamina.

Goku was able to turn UI on and off several times

Doesn’t prove lack of cost. SSJ was extremely costly in the Frieza-Cell Sagas and they could still go in and out of it at will. It was only when Goku demonstrated Grade 4 could the cost be averted. Similarly, in the DBS Manga, Vegeta could spam change into SSB, but it didn’t truly cut away at how costly it is. Just mitigated it enough to utilize the power without falling to the cost. It’s only with PSSB does Goku avoid the stamina cost (at the cost of physical strain).

with no drawback

Not implied.

and even adapt to Gas by using True UI (which is a dumbass name ngl).

True. (Pun intended).

Even if we take it at face value, Goku was able to use the form for several minutes with no drawback and no fatigue in ALL of his fights, only really losing ground after actually taking massive damage.

I mean, Goku literally rushed his fight with Granolah SPECIFICALLY because of the cost. So it’s a substantial issue (in his eyes). Again, even if Superku can fight moderately longer than demonstrated, because GTku has superior stamina, the result is the same.

However, Gtku can't exploit this since UI provides significantly better defensive AND offensive abilities compared to GTku's general kit, so GTku would be taking a LOT more damage here.

Not really? Defensively he only really has superior reactions due to UI cutting out the middle man, but while it’s better, GTku still has IR, and it’s demonstrated some of UI’s feats. (Even if, again, it’s worse). Outside of that, there’s the Defense Up, but PUI Goku only did that Moro because it felt it was “necessary” (since Moro couldn’t hurt Goku at this point, dodging becomes meaningless/a wasted action). GTku is comparable, so not the strategy PUI will go to. (When faced with a fellow UI user, it notably chose not to tank, because Moro couldn’t deal damage). And even then, there’s increase isn’t quantifiable enough to reason it would do the same to GTku.

This really only leaves the Ki Avatar, which is the ultra last ditch move. When he’s OUT of moves. And gives GTku plenty to absorb.

I mean, he’ll still take less hits overall—Better dodging is better dodging—But it’s not like Superku is taking 1 hit for every 100 GTku is. It’s likely far closer to 1 in 5, or even 1 in 10. With Superku’s stamina, where each dodge makes him worse, this isn’t a tenable defense.

Heck, UI can harden his body at will. Even if he does get caught off guard by whatever happens and his limbs are receiving contradictory information, just hardening his body is more than enough to reduce damage.

True, but it’s not crazy helpful.

GTku meanwhile has to actively block and use thought to dodge which is blatantly inefficient (and before you say GTku has instinctive action so he can match UI, Superku also has Instinctive Action before UI and yet not only was his previous experience completely useless in his UI training, but UI actively improves this ability to an unfathomable degree. I guess you can think about this as "layered instinctive action" I suppose)

I do think it’s Layered IR. But the feats of UI in the Manga aren’t unfathomably greater than the Toei IR. Toei IR has Goku absorbing the Spirit Bomb on Instinct, using IT on instinct to save Gohan, giving energy on Instinct to empower someone, waking up to incoming danger while asleep, dodging automatically without thought, dodging and counterattacking without thought, etc. From a feats perspective, I think UI is better because it’s above the ordinary IR in Canon (which is fairly basic/much more primitive compared to Toei’s), and because it’s DIRECTLY SAID to sever consciousness and body from each other, whereas even if this is technically the body moving without thought in Toei, (even unconsciously), the mind still technically is connected. A big part of this superiority to Toei IR is cellular processes are actively noted to be changed, as well. Still EXISTENT, but changed. It’s much more intrinsic in nature.

But if you actually compare effectiveness in what is happening on screen, Superku’s UI only has replicated the sleep thing—Waking up to use the Ki Avatar—And hasn’t done anything else outside of dodging general attacks (which GTku does). Superku (Anime) also has the absorbing Spirit Bomb. It’s just not as impressive from actual demonstration.

Again, not saying it’s comparable to Superku’s IR. GTku’s is still inferior. But it’s not infinitely so. It’s like, moderately worse.

Except it doesn't and he doesn't. Even if what happened with Gohan can be replicated, there's nothing stopping him from just using Hakai at that point and then everything would be for naught

1) Goku said so.
2) Granolah said so.
It is what it is.
3) If it’s replicated, Goku is smacked out of PUI. Then he’s easy money/basically dead because GTku can finish him in that moment of vulnerability.

you yourself admitted that simple observation wouldn't be enough for GTku to understand God Ki,

I meant we disagree on GTku not being able to absorb in Base.

Superku, upon artificially getting a Godly form by being injected with the ki of 5 other Saiyans, AND having said ki transform inside him, can sense God Ki

yeah that makes a lot of sense don't you think

As for the proper application thing, where is that ever stated?

I don’t see how Superku artificially getting God Ki is much different from GTku just outright integrating it into himself from Superku’s attacks.

2. Even if we assume he CAN absorb it, most of Superku's ki he's being exposed to is in the form of GIANT ENERGY LASERS THAT ARE VAPORISING HIM.

Again, not an issue given the RDBF demonstration.

3. Outside of Super Saiyan 4, he has never been shown to absorb the ki of something that is actively causing harm to him,

RDBF

4. Even if we assume that Superku's Kamehamehas CAN be absorbed, Superku literally never uses ki attacks in this form. It's actually ridiculous. Once Goku unlocked Mastered UI against Moro the literal only thing he's ever done is punches and kicks. So even then I don't think it'd be super applicable

I think this is actually pretty valid. PUI Goku mostly shows his Ki in his aura during big punch moves, (like his charge against Earth-Moro or his use of the Energy Avatar). That said, given PUI will resort to the Avatar in his time of need, I don’t see it being that much of an issue. Plus, while PUI Superku doesn’t use energy blasts much, we know he can, and we also observe Ki use in TUI and UIO, which while not PUI itself, are its gateways and thus indicative of what it can/might do in a given scenario.

Regardless, you are right in that PUI doesn’t use Ki Blasts often. But the Avatar itself is definitely enough to cause Superku’s downfall anyway. On top of limited stamina and limited accuracy.

 

[Mickey1940]

Well, they wished for their full potential to be the strongest with the EXCEPTION of the Gods, and this gave them basically every learnable ability we’ve seen. That said, this doesn’t change that they sensed Superku, (with ordinary Ki, hence why his Hakai is “similar but different”), so in his eyes others doing that isn’t outlandish.

They never had this ability before wishing with the Dragon Balls, and afterwards they gained this ability. At the barest minimum I think we can both agree that their better Ki Sense was GAINED from the Dragon Balls.

Yeah. I’m just using him as an example alongside the G’s to point out Goku has fought bare minimum 3 non-God Ki Users who can sense God Ki. So GTku keeping up with him sense-wise until he teleports would not register as weird.

valid

I don’t think he’d assume it’s weird when it’s happened before at least 3 different times. But I do agree teleporting would alert him to it anyway.

valid

Essentially. Part of this is actually accepted in the GTku profile already—That is, the Sigma Force bit. What isn’t is the Super 17 Saga stuff.

I mean the Sigma Force are honestly just really good at hiding their energy, but at the end of the day Machine Mutants still have ordinary ki. They're not stated to ever have anything out of the ordinary besides being REALLY good at hiding. Trunks and Pan not being able to sense them might just be from their inexperience.

I think it's similar to a series like Frieren. Very few characters can see the fluctuations of Frieren's or Serie's mana fluctuations while they're suppressing themselves, yet more experienced mages can see them. But this doesn't give them layered sensing since it's just hiding aspects of their mana. The mana itself isn't particularly unique or special

The Super 17 stuff would give them a LOT more feats though

From what I understand the translation is accurate, because when Null went and got a Transcript of an episode from the Baby Saga for the Revenge Death Ball, (as well as other episodes), the exact kanji meanings matched the outcome of the Subtitles. Of course, that doesn’t mean it can’t be wrong, but the fact it is usually right indicates to me that it’s more likely than not correct.

Yeah, I agree. I’m just trying to make sense of it in general.

That’s just how Toei works. Unironically. Like in Toei Master Roshi explained the Dragon Balls to originate from a bigger ball and then later Kami explains he made the Dragon Balls (the canon way) and you’re just kind of forced to reconcile these very broken pieces. Fortunately, that one is easy, (Master Roshi straight up said it was a legend, and thus was a story, not innately true). But like, obviously it wasn’t intended to be such when they wrote it. Similarly to how Deadzone can’t happen but MUST happen because Garlic Jr. Returns references it.

1. You didn't address Trunks's account of the possibility of just being able to see 17 in person, realizing he can't sense jack shit, and then being like "oh he's just like 18!".
2. Again, Goku said he'd try to sense 17's energy and couldn't despite the fact that sensing energy comes naturally to him and he failed to sense him after the fact anyways. I'm trying to make sense of it too, but I am not succeeding since it just doesn't add up
3. As much as I'm inclined to agree, there's too many logical arguments to debunk Toei characters being able to sense Androids. Like this is a very "on one hand this, on the other hand this" kinda argument that I really don't think either of us can resolve without a straight up CRT

Huh? I’m saying I agree it seems universal, but only Goku shows it, so I only gave it to Goku. It’s not on the Toei Ki Profile.

ah ok

I mean there’s no need to do so when you’re winning (or THINK you’re stronger) and it’s hard to do when you’re so battered you’re dying. Post-Baby is where it mostly gets shaky.

He didn't do it against 100% Frieza, Cell, Kid Buu, Rildo, Base Janemba, or anyone. Heck he didn't even use it against Baby until the Revenge Death Ball Final happened. All of the characters I just mentioned were either in the same ballpark of power or exactly as strong as GTku was (ESPECIALLY Cell and Buu). He really doesn't have any excuse to not use it in these fights, yet he still doesn't. It's definitely not in character, and even in times of crisis (like the Revenge Death Ball Final) he's very rarely used it. You say he can't do it when "he's so battered he's dying" yet he literally did so against Baby when he himself claims all of his muscles feel like jelly and he has no ki left. At the same time, he doesn't do it against 50% Frieza in the same situation, or Super Janemba, or anyone else. It's wildly inconsistent and OOC

This is exaggerated. The Revenge Death Ball is utterly evil foreign Ki (made up of the entire Earth’s population as an Evil Spirit Bomb, basically), that warps space time while it also attempts to vaporize you. And if you account for the English Dub (I don’t, but just to include it as trivia), directly targets the psyche as well on top of that. Plus, if you take Baby (in the Sub, not Dub), at his word (and not assume it’s hyperbole) when he threw it, it affects on the atomic level. And the Revenge Death Ball Final is a stronger variant, magnified by his Golden Oozaru state. Goku can definitely absorb Foreign Ki. How efficiently is in question, but it’s presented as he just took in the power of the RDBF, so there’s no real reason to doubt it’s not fairly good.

Baby: “G-Goku, you mean you soaked up even the power of my Revenge Death Ball?!”

In other words, the totality of the attack’s power. (Episode 39, Sub).

So the only 2 real examples we see of GTku absorbing Ki is when he absorbed his own Spirit Bomb, and when he absorbed Baby's "Spirit Bomb"

that makes a lot more sense. It'd remove the inconsistency of not being able to absorb ki sometimes while being able to absorb ki other times since the times he's absorbed ki, it's ONLY from these types of sources

but Superku isn't hitting him with Spirit Bombs. He's not hitting him with a culmination of a bunch of people's ki. It's fundamentally different.

You also didn't address the fact that GTku even at his best can't absorb stuff like 19 or 20 can, nor does he have any good foreign ki absorption outside of SSJ4

I don’t think he could absorb the artificial energy of an Android, but the Shenron’s are fair—In so far that he didn’t use it despite having the power.

Well, see, that's the weird thing. I just thought of this:

Why can't he absorb the artificial energy of an Android?

What makes Android ki unable to be absorbed? The only thing special about Android ki is that it can't be sensed by almost anyone

...which is almost EXACTLY the kind of ki God Ki is. Most mortals can't sense it either

If GTku can't absorb Android ki, and the only viable reason for that is because he can't sense it (since Android Ki isn't special in any other way), why would he be able to absorb God Ki if he also can't sense it?

It'd make no sense for GTku to be able to SENSE Android ki but not ABSORB it since Android ki doesn't have any other special qualities other than being not sense-able

I mean, I’d consider it more an in-character thing than Anti-Feats. An Anti-Feat is more “I can’t use it” than “I don’t use it often.”

Not using it before the Baby fight is more reasonable since at that point he hadn't used it against enemy attacks and therefore he has an excuse to not use it

AFTER the Baby fight he straight up has no more excuse. Against Super 17 maybe he does cuz artificial energy but against the Shadow Dragons he has zero excuse whatsoever for being dumb. The fact that he still doesn't use it just means that absorption is extremely OOC

not to mention, THIS version of GTku hadn't absorbed the Revenge Death Ball Final yet (as it's SSJ3 Baby Fight GTku)

Oh, that’s because their profiles are old + It’s related to the Toei Ki Page under “Negative Karma”. When introduced to Haze Shenron, he explains that the weakening effect we observe is actually just Negative Karma. Not even that his is unique or something, just that this is Minus Energy and this is just how it works. That almost beats them, they get fresh water/air, and then even when back in the Negative Karma mist, water, air, etc. they just are seemingly immune. Hell, when Omega overtly uses it, all the Saiyans are somehow immune and can use their powers, despite not experiencing it in the same way Goku and Pan did when they seemingly adapted to it, only as the general energy the Shadow Dragons use for their attacks.

Basically, as far as we know, it’s a passive to Negative Karma the Saiyans just adapted to. (COUGH The Writers Forgot COUGH). So absorbing it prior to adaptation would be a bad thing to do.

it's still sense-able ki. Sure it's poison but you can still absorb it, it just hurts you lmao. It's standard ki otherwise, with no statements or otherwise of being un-absorb-able

I mean 19/20 absorb Ki and it can’t be sensed/isn’t considered ordinary Ki anymore when integrated with them. Super 17 likely operates similarly, especially because he also has their Absorption Method on top of his Absorption Barrier (he just never used it). Which is like, really funny. He could absorb both in Hand to Hand and from afar. He just preferred Long Distance. (Though, he was also nerfed by the real Android 17 rebelling to the control from within, making him purposely leave himself open and fight worse).

fair

It’s never implied he doesn’t get stronger. The exchange is fairly simple.

Omega attacks, notices they’ve moved, and goes “Ah…Instant Movement, hm?”

Gohan says “So you saved us again, dad?”

And Goku just replies “That was a small bit of the Ki you guys gave me…” before taunting Omega Shenron.

It’s not implied it didn’t make him stronger. Nor is it implied he got stronger. Nothing is said to lean either direction.

This isn't Schrodinger's ki absorption bro. He didn't use the ki to become stronger and he didn't showcase more power after doing so. It's far more reasonable to assume he didn't get stronger because it simply didn't happen

Again, read above.

An additional point to this: The saiyans were BLASTING ki around him, yet he was only able to absorb a "tiny amount".

I’d argue getting God Ki directly from someone with God Ki comparable to yourself is a lot different than just getting God Ki from like, Dende. Current Superku makes SSG BoG Goku look like a kid, and that’s probably what his residuals are like. And if GTku absorbs that, there’s no reason to assume he wouldn’t get Super Saiyan God like amps.

No, Goku's God Ki is better than Dende's because Goku has more God Ki. It's not really the "quality of God Ki". It's not like Dende's ki is beef jerky while Superku's ki is filet mignon. And it's also not like GTku has a LOT of beef jerky while Superku has a little filet mignon either. They both have the same amount of beef jerky, and Dende just has really little beef jerky since he's just weak. Again, God Ki isn't anything special besides not being able to be sensed by most mortals.

Not to mention, GTku stat gaps BoG Super Saiyan god Goku anyways, so absorbing the power of said Goku literally wouldn't do anything. BoG Super Saiyan God Goku is weaker than current manga Base Goku, so basically absorbing a Base Goku amount of ki would accomplish almost nothing

It's not like GTku will get the Super Saiyan God ritual just from absorbing Superku's residuals. His residuals wouldn't add anything significant even if he did absorb ALL of it, which he can't anyways due to the GTku saving the saiyans anti-feat (not being able to absorb a lot of ki even though the saiyans were blasting ki all around them)

Still helps.

True, but not in terms of AP

It doesn’t matter/change the facts. UI gets worse over time. GTku doesn’t have to have uber precision to hit Goku when it gets bad enough to no longer be effective. Because he’s the one winning the war of attrition, as long as he lasts long enough the result is the same. Could be 3 manga pages, 6, 10, or 14. Superku has a form that decreases in effectiveness over time, and Granolah used that to hit Superku when he could capitalize on it. The only real difference is GTku might have to wait a bit longer to do the same.

He's also the one who's taking way way WAY more damage in general due to having worse analytical prediction, worse instinctive action, and worse defensive abilities in general. Sure, UI Goku is draining, but GTku doesn't really want to be taking that much damage. We've never seen UI get noticeably worse without taking significant damage

Which contextually is the outlier. Even if it isn’t, the fight could’ve honestly been incredibly short in real time. Regardless, the statement makes in the Granolah Saga holds more weight than Moro’s stuff, because it applies directly to the Goku we’re talking about (this key).

There hasn't been a single dragon ball fight that's lasted longer than a few minutes. That's about as long as UI lasts, if not longer, as shown in the Beast Gohan fight and the free-for-all that happened after.

Sure the episodes in most shows are REALLY long from an audience perspective due to padding out the episode lengths in the early 1990's but it's still no longer than a few minutes. GTku might LAST longer but in the actual fight he'd be taking too much damage over the course of the fight, especially since both characters are moving massively FTL so thousands if not millions of different exchanges can happen in those minutes

TUI is specifically different and supposed to be better to avoid the limits of UI’s cost. And he didn’t fight as PUI against Gas, because Vegeta told him off for trying to do so because he hadn’t actually shown growth between the last fight and now.

TUI's only advantage over PUI is the fact that Goku can use his emotions to benefit him, and thus slightly edge out PUI in power

The form is noticeably missing during his fight with Beast Gohan

The form isn't intended to bypass UI's stamina issue

He fought for a few pages in a spar and was smacked out the form. This also doesn’t prove it doesn’t have bad stamina.

He then reactivated the form with no effort and sparred with Beast Gohan, Vegeta, Broly, Goten, and Trunks in a massive free-for-all for an extended period of time. It's pretty reasonable to assume that UI will last as long as Superku needs it to

Doesn’t prove lack of cost. SSJ was extremely costly in the Frieza-Cell Sagas and they could still go in and out of it at will. It was only when Goku demonstrated Grade 4 could the cost be averted. Similarly, in the DBS Manga, Vegeta could spam change into SSB, but it didn’t truly cut away at how costly it is. Just mitigated it enough to utilize the power without falling to the cost. It’s only with PSSB does Goku avoid the stamina cost (at the cost of physical strain).

that's valid actually

Not implied.

I mean true but the form doesn't really have a drawback upon activation so idk why I mentioned this

True. (Pun intended).

heh

I mean, Goku literally rushed his fight with Granolah SPECIFICALLY because of the cost. So it’s a substantial issue (in his eyes). Again, even if Superku can fight moderately longer than demonstrated, because GTku has superior stamina, the result is the same.

except he's taking significantly less damage throughout the fight due to UI being a wholly superior form with actual unique benefits

Not really? Defensively he only really has superior reactions due to UI cutting out the middle man, but while it’s better, GTku still has IR, and it’s demonstrated some of UI’s feats. (Even if, again, it’s worse). Outside of that, there’s the Defense Up, but PUI Goku only did that Moro because it felt it was “necessary” (since Moro couldn’t hurt Goku at this point, dodging becomes meaningless/a wasted action). GTku is comparable, so not the strategy PUI will go to. (When faced with a fellow UI user, it notably chose not to tank, because Moro couldn’t deal damage). And even then, there’s increase isn’t quantifiable enough to reason it would do the same to GTku.

This really only leaves the Ki Avatar, which is the ultra last ditch move. When he’s OUT of moves. And gives GTku plenty to absorb.

I mean, he’ll still take less hits overall—Better dodging is better dodging—But it’s not like Superku is taking 1 hit for every 100 GTku is. It’s likely far closer to 1 in 5, or even 1 in 10. With Superku’s stamina, where each dodge makes him worse, this isn’t a tenable defense.

1. Superku has a similar level of IR to GTku even BEFORE getting UI.
2. The hardening, although probably not significant, is still a big help since it just makes his blocking more effective. You're blocking with your arms + normal ki reinforcement + whatever BS UI helps you with the natural hardening. It's still a noticeable defense up
3. The Ki Avatar held hands with Moro for an extended period of time yet Moro wasn't able to absorb it at all. There is no reason to assume GTku can absorb it either even if he WAS able to just drink it like a smoothie, which he can't due to the saving the Saiyans anti-feat
4. I'm not sure you understand how bad 1 in 5 is. Imagine getting hit with 5 uppercuts to the face before you can land a single good hit. Now imagine you manage to hit someone and they don't block it, but their body hardens in response so it's no longer a good hit. That's what it's like fighting Superku. Superku has his own attacks, but UI also has OFFENSIVE Instinctive Reaction too, so he actually has something that can help him land hits even if GTku manages to outskill in CQC (which he doesn't). GTku, on the other hand, doesn't have anything to autopilot his attacks, AND his opponent is autopilot dodging several of his moves and hardening against the others that do hit. Stamina be damned, GTku isn't taking that super well

I do think it’s Layered IR. But the feats of UI in the Manga aren’t unfathomably greater than the Toei IR. Toei IR has Goku absorbing the Spirit Bomb on Instinct, using IT on instinct to save Gohan, giving energy on Instinct to empower someone, waking up to incoming danger while asleep, dodging automatically without thought, dodging and counterattacking without thought, etc. From a feats perspective, I think UI is better because it’s above the ordinary IR in Canon (which is fairly basic/much more primitive compared to Toei’s), and because it’s DIRECTLY SAID to sever consciousness and body from each other, whereas even if this is technically the body moving without thought in Toei, (even unconsciously), the mind still technically is connected. A big part of this superiority to Toei IR is cellular processes are actively noted to be changed, as well. Still EXISTENT, but changed. It’s much more intrinsic in nature.

1. Absorbing the spirit bomb ig is instinctive reaction but that doesn't really help him here besides potentially absorbing residuals which don't help much, and even then he's never done this ever again
2. Using IT on instinct to punch someone in the face isn't really instinctive action. He get angry = he ignore the fact that he is dead = he save his son. He's so angry about what's happening that he just ignores the laws of the dead to perform an action that he puts thought into it. That's not really a good example since he's not instinctively attacking someone. This is more of an example of being so angry that he ignores the fact that he is dead and takes action regardless, but said action had intent and emotion behind it.
3. Broly released his ki and then woke Goku up. I have no idea why that's considered instinctive action
4. Popo's training is more in line with actually useful instinctive evasion, but it still pales in comparison to UI simply due to lack of actual showings past original Dragon Ball.
Claiming that the "mind and body are still connected" for Toei's IR isn't something I found in any amount of media. Can you provide more scans to this? also, how exactly does this even help? Claiming that UI would cause the mind and body to be misaligned and cause mistakes is not something that is included in any media either, and is also kinda headcanony to claim since this has never been shown to be a problem in any context in any media

But if you actually compare effectiveness in what is happening on screen, Superku’s UI only has replicated the sleep thing—Waking up to use the Ki Avatar—And hasn’t done anything else outside of dodging general attacks (which GTku does). Superku (Anime) also has the absorbing Spirit Bomb. It’s just not as impressive from actual demonstration.

true, Base Superku's IR is worse than GTku's, but UI is explicitly shown to be better than GTku's IR. Heck, Superku has fought UI users before (Post-Merus Absorption Moro), and was overwhelming him despite their equal stats at the time (as stated by Moro himself) due to Superku's better mastery over UI and overall skill level. He's definitely fought people with IR before, meanwhile afaik GTku hasn't

1) Goku said so.
2) Granolah said so.
It is what it is.
3) If it’s replicated, Goku is smacked out of PUI. Then he’s easy money/basically dead because GTku can finish him in that moment of vulnerability.

Except we've already established GTku can't replicate what Beast Gohan did due to not having anything to boost his power with.
We've already established that UI Superku can easily dodge people on his level as shown with the Moro fight AND the first parts of the Beast Gohan fight, with Gohan actually needing to up his speed and power with a rage boost in order to even land a single hit. GTku can't replicate this since he has no such boosts and absorbing ambient ki wouldn't achieve this either.

I meant we disagree on GTku not being able to absorb in Base.

valid, but his showings in base have not helped him

I don’t see how Superku artificially getting God Ki is much different from GTku just outright integrating it into himself from Superku’s attacks.

because the Super Saiyan God ritual doesn't vaporize the receiver of said form. I've already agreed with your opinion that absorbing the ambient ki around Superku would allow GTku to sense and track him, but my point is that this wouldn't actually help him much, and it also wouldn't cause him to achieve Super Saiyan God. Heck, Xeno Goku, a future version of GT Goku, has fought alongside and against CC Goku and other divine beings countless times, but you don't see him or anyone else achieving Super Saiyan God that way.

Again, not an issue given the RDBF demonstration.

Again, never shown outside of Super Saiyan 4, and also only shown 1 times WITH Super Saiyan 4 as he's never used it against the Shadow Dragons or anyone else for that matter

I think this is actually pretty valid. PUI Goku mostly shows his Ki in his aura during big punch moves, (like his charge against Earth-Moro or his use of the Energy Avatar). That said, given PUI will resort to the Avatar in his time of need, I don’t see it being that much of an issue. Plus, while PUI Superku doesn’t use energy blasts much, we know he can, and we also observe Ki use in TUI and UIO, which while not PUI itself, are its gateways and thus indicative of what it can/might do in a given scenario.

Regardless, you are right in that PUI doesn’t use Ki Blasts often. But the Avatar itself is definitely enough to cause Superku’s downfall anyway. On top of limited stamina and limited accuracy.

Except Moro couldn't absorb the Ki avatar despite being absorb UI Goku normally upon contact. There's no reason to assume Goku's Ki Avatar would just get slorped the instant he uses it since Moro, a character who IS capable of just slorping ki, couldn't do it

 

[Mickey1940]

TLDR my point is that Ki Absorption has been demonstrated as a very OOC thing for GTku to do and only really happens when he's pushed REALLY far, so this really isn't a factor till the very end

Superku can just beat down GTku before UI wears off due to GTku not being able to abuse UI's lower accuracy like Granolah can and therefore will be taking way more hits, and in a worst case scenario (meaning OOC) he'd just Hakai gg

GTku can't really do anything to Superku without receiving a beatdown, and in a worst case scenario (meaning OOC) he could absorb ki but then that'd just force Superku into his OWN OOC move (Hakai) and GTku just gets erased

It's just a rock paper scissors thing but Superku can make his decision after GTku can. Superku wins in a normal brawl until GTku absorb a big ki attack (which normally never happens anyways since UI Goku doesn't use ki attacks literally ever for some reason), and even if that happens Superku raises his hand and erases GTku on the spot gg. GTku dodge = Superku UI predicts the dodge (which he's demonstrated against Moro) and still erases him anyways

 

[RedReaper616]

They never had this ability before wishing with the Dragon Balls, and afterwards they gained this ability. At the barest minimum I think we can both agree that their better Ki Sense was GAINED from the Dragon Balls.

I’m not denying him getting it. I’m saying there’s nothing divine about it.

I mean the Sigma Force are honestly just really good at hiding their energy, but at the end of the day Machine Mutants still have ordinary ki. They're not stated to ever have anything out of the ordinary besides being REALLY good at hiding. Trunks and Pan not being able to sense them might just be from their inexperience.

Well, Trunks is supposed to be as skilled/capable/above the stuff done in the past and was directly taught the Ki Sensing that the adults use. I could see it being inexperience for Pan, because we don’t see her training much, but Goten and Trunks are are shown to be taught by users like Gohan and Vegeta respectively, when they were kids.

I think it's similar to a series like Frieren. Very few characters can see the fluctuations of Frieren's or Serie's mana fluctuations while they're suppressing themselves, yet more experienced mages can see them. But this doesn't give them layered sensing since it's just hiding aspects of their mana. The mana itself isn't particularly unique or special

It’s possible, but usually suppression hides you. That’s why it’s such a big deal in the Frieza Saga. Hiding your Ki makes you virtually invisible from detection, so Goku sensing them means Goku just…sensed past that. Somehow. Though, yes, it’s still ordinary Ki.

The Super 17 stuff would give them a LOT more feats though

1. You didn't address Trunks's account of the possibility of just being able to see 17 in person, realizing he can't sense jack shit, and then being like "oh he's just like 18!".

I did. You thought it might be mistranslation, but as far as checked, for GT Raws, they’ve never been blatantly incorrect. If they aren’t incorrect, then the literal words “It’s just like 18’s Ki!” aren’t false. Plus, since it directly says “Ki,” the visual is irrelevant anyway. Also, it doesn’t matter much when both Goten and Trunks sensed Android 19 hiding when he was completely out of sight, later.

2. Again, Goku said he'd try to sense 17's energy and couldn't despite the fact that sensing energy comes naturally to him and he failed to sense him after the fact anyways. I'm trying to make sense of it too, but I am not succeeding since it just doesn't add up

I mean, that’s why I suggested it being his M2 Biology. M2s can hide their Ki from skilled sensors when they want, like when they did to Trunks and Pan. Super 17 already is unable to be sensed ordinarily because of his Infinite Reactor Physiology. So suppressing an already usually invisible energy source would technically have a greater hiding effect.

3. As much as I'm inclined to agree, there's too many logical arguments to debunk Toei characters being able to sense Androids. Like this is a very "on one hand this, on the other hand this" kinda argument that I really don't think either of us can resolve without a straight up CRT

Perhaps.

He didn't do it against 100% Frieza, Cell, Kid Buu, Rildo, Base Janemba, or anyone. Heck he didn't even use it against Baby until the Revenge Death Ball Final happened.

I mean, I don’t think he has the ability until GT. Given how GT Goku does it and it’s not treated as a new power, by the nature of that demonstration, he must’ve already had it. Meaning he probably got in the years of training with Uub.

It's definitely not in character, and even in times of crisis (like the Revenge Death Ball Final) he's very rarely used it. You say he can't do it when "he's so battered he's dying" yet he literally did so against Baby when he himself claims all of his muscles feel like jelly and he has no ki left.

No, he was back at peak when he did this. He’s at Full Power Super Saiyan 4, here.

At the same time, he doesn't do it against 50% Frieza in the same situation, or Super Janemba, or anyone else. It's wildly inconsistent and OOC

I could see character arguments, but not really inability.

So the only 2 real examples we see of GTku absorbing Ki is when he absorbed his own Spirit Bomb, and when he absorbed Baby's "Spirit Bomb"

that makes a lot more sense. It'd remove the inconsistency of not being able to absorb ki sometimes while being able to absorb ki other times since the times he's absorbed ki, it's ONLY from these types of sources

but Superku isn't hitting him with Spirit Bombs. He's not hitting him with a culmination of a bunch of people's ki. It's fundamentally different.

I mean, I suppose you could make a correlation, but it’s never presented this way.

You also didn't address the fact that GTku even at his best can't absorb stuff like 19 or 20 can, nor does he have any good foreign ki absorption outside of SSJ4

Yes, I did. Baby directly says “You absorbed THE POWER of the RDB[F]?!”

Again, implying that the efficiency of it was total.

Well, see, that's the weird thing. I just thought of this:

Why can't he absorb the artificial energy of an Android?

What makes Android ki unable to be absorbed? The only thing special about Android ki is that it can't be sensed by almost anyone

…Which is because it’s not real energy/fake energy. It’s not real. In the same way Moro couldn’t absorb it, either, despite being capable of absorbing God Ki.

...which is almost EXACTLY the kind of ki God Ki is. Most mortals can't sense it either

Moro could sense God Ki and couldn’t absorb Android Energy anyway. They’re not related traits.

If GTku can't absorb Android ki, and the only viable reason for that is because he can't sense it (since Android Ki isn't special in any other way), why would he be able to absorb God Ki if he also can't sense it?

Because nothing about God Ki is harder to interact with.

It'd make no sense for GTku to be able to SENSE Android ki but not ABSORB it since Android ki doesn't have any other special qualities other than being not sense-able

It does. Being fake.

Not using it before the Baby fight is more reasonable since at that point he hadn't used it against enemy attacks and therefore he has an excuse to not use it

Agreed.

AFTER the Baby fight he straight up has no more excuse. Against Super 17 maybe he does cuz artificial energy

I’m not sure how you say this, knowing the energy is artificial, but also try to argue the reason it’s not absorbable is because Goku can’t sense it—But also recognize the energy has been sensed anyway?

but against the Shadow Dragons he has zero excuse whatsoever for being dumb. The fact that he still doesn't use it just means that absorption is extremely OOC

I did say that.

not to mention, THIS version of GTku hadn't absorbed the Revenge Death Ball Final yet (as it's SSJ3 Baby Fight GTku)

Again, it’s not presented as a new skill. He just does it.

it's still sense-able ki. Sure it's poison but you can still absorb it, it just hurts you lmao. It's standard ki otherwise, with no statements or otherwise of being un-absorb-able

I’m not saying it’s not absorbable. I’m saying absorbing it would kill you/weaken you. This explanation makes total sense…and then the Saiyans all just adapt anyway. Then Goku is also confirmed to have Plus Energy running through his body to purify it, so after the Haze Shenron fight he should be capable of absorbing their energy. Well, I mean, sorta? Only really 2 use actual, raw Ki. Syn (and of course, Omega) Shenron, and Naturon Shenron.

Eis only uses pure cold, Nuova pure heat, Oceanus pure wind, and Rage electric slime. They couldn’t against Haze if they wanted due to the poisonous effect.

And then with Naturon they kind of just dogwalked him until he absorbed Pan, which nerfed Goku (he couldn’t even fight with intent to harm because he instinctively dropped his power to prevent himself from harming Pan, even when he wanted to just end it all). Then against Syn he was blind and getting pummeled while incredibly low on Ki after running a gauntlet.

This isn't Schrodinger's ki absorption bro. He didn't use the ki to become stronger and he didn't showcase more power after doing so. It's far more reasonable to assume he didn't get stronger because it simply didn't happen

I’d argue teleporting and overcoming his body’s limits is an indication, but that’s besides the point. The point is that your conclusion isn’t indicated. Hell, Goku could’ve gotten stronger and still chose to not fight because it’s not enough.

An additional point to this: The saiyans were BLASTING ki around him, yet he was only able to absorb a "tiny amount".

I mean, they weren’t really. Not anymore. Syn had them all beat down. It was only that few seconds before Syn attacked he could siphon Ki from them. Also, again, not the same as absorbing an attack wholesale.

No, Goku's God Ki is better than Dende's because Goku has more God Ki.

That’s what I meant.

It's not really the "quality of God Ki". It's not like Dende's ki is beef jerky while Superku's ki is filet mignon. And it's also not like GTku has a LOT of beef jerky while Superku has a little filet mignon either. They both have the same amount of beef jerky, and Dende just has really little beef jerky since he's just weak. Again, God Ki isn't anything special besides not being able to be sensed by most mortals.

This is only sort of true. While God Ki is not technically the greatest thing ever, Goku getting it in the SSG transformation literally shot him up a whole level of power. GTku getting his own SSG from absorbing God Ki would be a big boon, not for the Ki, but for the form.

Not to mention, GTku stat gaps BoG Super Saiyan god Goku anyways, so absorbing the power of said Goku literally wouldn't do anything.

Drains stamina better, even if GTku can’t reap the benefits of God Ki.

It's not like GTku will get the Super Saiyan God ritual just from absorbing Superku's residuals. His residuals wouldn't add anything significant even if he did absorb ALL of it, which he can't anyways due to the GTku saving the saiyans anti-feat (not being able to absorb a lot of ki even though the saiyans were blasting ki all around them)

Vegeta literally got SSG from just passively existing and adapting to God Ki after experiencing it in his surroundings/integrating it into himself for like, a few months. GTku absorbing a shit ton to Speedrun it seems fairly plausible.

True, but not in terms of AP

Doesn’t matter much.

He's also the one who's taking way way WAY more damage in general due to having worse analytical prediction, worse instinctive action, and worse defensive abilities in general. Sure, UI Goku is draining, but GTku doesn't really want to be taking that much damage. We've never seen UI get noticeably worse without taking significant damage

Granolah literally observed it happening. We also know you don’t need Granolah’s eyes to see the effect of UI on Goku. Vegeta could tell that as Goku improved his transformation, UI itself improved. GTku should be capable of noticing the reverse—Albeit, of course, not on the cellular level.

There hasn't been a single dragon ball fight that's lasted longer than a few minutes. That's about as long as UI lasts, if not longer, as shown in the Beast Gohan fight and the free-for-all that happened after.

Given GTku’s form has no strain, he can last as long as Base GT Goku himself would last in a fight, and back in the Cell Saga, unlike Canon Goku, who was losing stamina, Toeiku straight up just…didn’t. It wasn’t until a much later in which Toeiku experienced serious drain (like from releasing the Instant Transmission KHH). Additionally, in Broly: The Legendary Super Saiyan, Paragus remarks that mere hours remain from the impact of Comet Camori right before he gets in his pod to leave (and Broly kills him). Which means from that time to the end of the film (where they narrowly escape death RIGHT AFTER Goku kills Broly by escaping in a space ship to evade the Comet), HOURS passed. GTku just has far superior stamina in this regard.

GTku might LAST longer but in the actual fight he'd be taking too much damage over the course of the fight, especially since both characters are moving massively FTL so thousands if not millions of different exchanges can happen in those minutes

Again, Superku gets worse.

TUI's only advantage over PUI is the fact that Goku can use his emotions to benefit him, and thus slightly edge out PUI in power

It’s supposed to be an evolution over PUI for that reason. PUI is so costly because he has to surpass his limits due to his incorrect perception, whereas TUI is his unique style of Ultra Instinct. If Goku was in his base state without trying to Copy Whis and using that unique style, he’d have no stamina loss. Also, Whis directly mentioning it reinforces my point. Goku has a time limit, and the DBS Interval Special literally UI puts “tremendous strain” on Goku’s body.

The form is noticeably missing during his fight with Beast Gohan

Not worth much.

The form isn't intended to bypass UI's stamina issue

It absolutely is. Whis wants Goku to utilize Ultra Instinct his own way without transformation. UIO is a reduced state of Ultra Instinct (less transformation) combined with Goku’s natural instinct of using his heart (instead of forced calm from emulating Angels). It’s presented as a form of solution to his current problem.

except he's taking significantly less damage throughout the fight due to UI being a wholly superior form with actual unique benefits

The benefit is better dodging and some damage reduction.

1. Superku has a similar level of IR to GTku even BEFORE getting UI.

No, he didn’t. You agree with this later, but overall, being completely open, Toei’s IR is just better than anything in canon UNTIL Ultra Instinct appeared. And Ultra Instinct hasn’t performed anything out of the wheelhouse of GTku except actual severance of mind and body.

2. The hardening, although probably not significant, is still a big help since it just makes his blocking more effective. You're blocking with your arms + normal ki reinforcement + whatever BS UI helps you with the natural hardening. It's still a noticeable defense up

True.

3. The Ki Avatar held hands with Moro for an extended period of time yet Moro wasn't able to absorb it at all.

Already spoke on this. Moro was a mindless monster, and even then Moro was absorbing Ki. This is why Goku powered down to SSB at first. Straight up, Goku just got supercharged by Uub and thus hit Moro before he can be sucked dry again.

There is no reason to assume GTku can absorb it either even if he WAS able to just drink it like a smoothie, which he can't due to the saving the Saiyans anti-feat

Again, not an anti feat.

4. I'm not sure you understand how bad 1 in 5 is. Imagine getting hit with 5 uppercuts to the face before you can land a single good hit.

1 for every 5 is good if you have comparable stamina. But Superku doesn’t. And because EVERY move is a dramatic reduction, that means every one of those 5 hits makes it worse. It goes from 1 in 5 to 1 in 4 to 1 in 3, etc.

Now imagine you manage to hit someone and they don't block it, but their body hardens in response so it's no longer a good hit. That's what it's like fighting Superku. Superku has his own attacks, but UI also has OFFENSIVE Instinctive Reaction too, so he actually has something that can help him land hits even if GTku manages to outskill in CQC (which he doesn't). GTku, on the other hand, doesn't have anything to autopilot his attacks, AND his opponent is autopilot dodging several of his moves and hardening against the others that do hit.

Yes, he does. He’s fought his exact equal (Goku Doll) and used his IR to evade and counter. Straight up, he has offensive and defensive IR.

Stamina be damned, GTku isn't taking that super well

The Stamina gap here is sizable, though.

1. Absorbing the spirit bomb ig is instinctive reaction but that doesn't really help him here besides potentially absorbing residuals which don't help much, and even then he's never done this ever again

The point is he has IR feats.

2. Using IT on instinct to punch someone in the face isn't really instinctive action. He get angry = he ignore the fact that he is dead = he save his son. He's so angry about what's happening that he just ignores the laws of the dead to perform an action that he puts thought into it. That's not really a good example since he's not instinctively attacking someone.

That’s exactly what the passage says though. He unconsciously/subconsciously acted, using IT to attack Bojack. And again, this is irrelevant, because it’s still using more than just punches and kicks on instinct. This is instinctive teleportation. While not directly applicable (GTku can’t teleport more than a few feat), what it does mean is his body can utilize moves—Ki based abilities—on Instinct.

3. Broly released his ki and then woke Goku up. I have no idea why that's considered instinctive action

The same reason it’s considered IR for Superku—They’re instinctively made aware of a threat in their sleep.

4. Popo's training is more in line with actually useful instinctive evasion, but it still pales in comparison to UI simply due to lack of actual showings past original Dragon Ball.

Dude—Toeiku just suddenly woke up due to sensing danger while asleep (thus on instinct, because he doesn’t have access to his cognitive mind), and you’re saying there are no feats. Moreover, what is Toeiku absorbing the Spirit Bomb on instinct, then? It’s not evasion, but it’s demonstration of the principles Popo instilled.

Claiming that the "mind and body are still connected" for Toei's IR isn't something I found in any amount of media. Can you provide more scans to this? also, how exactly does this even help?

I—Did you not read? I’m saying that Toei’s is worse because it’s never demonstrated total separation of mind and body like UI has. That’s the reason why I agree Superku’s is better—Because acting without thinking, no matter how much you do it or how skilled you become, without further exploration doesn’t change cellular processing, nor does it sever mind from body like UI does.

Claiming that UI would cause the mind and body to be misaligned and cause mistakes is not something that is included in any media either, and is also kinda headcanony to claim since this has never been shown to be a problem in any context in any media

I never said UI would cause misalignment? I’m saying that because UI is stated to literally sever the connection between body and mind to act, it’s got better statements in how it functions.

true, Base Superku's IR is worse than GTku's, but UI is explicitly shown to be better than GTku's IR. Heck, Superku has fought UI users before (Post-Merus Absorption Moro), and was overwhelming him

That’s a bit of a stretch. From Page 26-39 they’re pretty much equal. It’s only when Moro begin to overload (and notably, stops being calm), does Superku have advantage. For, you know, obvious reasons when you foe suddenly becomes slow and gains a hyper terrible BMI from nearly self destructing.

despite their equal stats at the time (as stated by Moro himself) due to Superku's better mastery over UI and overall skill level.

Superku never demonstrates actual superiority in this moment. He gets blindsided by Moro’s magic, which Moro says gives him a leg up while they’re equal, and the very next thing is Moro’s overload. Before that moment they’re dead even.

He's definitely fought people with IR before, meanwhile afaik GTku hasn't

He’s fought people who have it—(Fellow Z-Fighters learned his very IR by training on the Lookout in the Saiyan Saga), against people who’ve accounted for it all in supercomputer data (Gero) to counter Goku, Perfect Cell (who has all the Martial Arts ability of all the Z-Fighters, and other masters, not just Goku, Frieza, Kind Cold, and Vegeta, like Canon Cell), etc. He’s absolutely fought people with IR on his level, which > Superku (without UI). And UI Goku has, but only in Whis, who always beats him.

Except we've already established GTku can't replicate what Beast Gohan did due to not having anything to boost his power with.

Again, this is just us disagreeing on the issue of Ki Absorption. But even then, like, what exactly is Superku gonna do as his stamina dies out?

We've already established that UI Superku can easily dodge people on his level as shown with the Moro fight

Not really.

AND the first parts of the Beast Gohan fight,

Fair-ish? It’s a spar, so Goku isn’t taking it seriously.

because the Super Saiyan God ritual doesn't vaporize the receiver of said form.

Again, GTku has absorbed an attack intended to murder him. You know this. The fact you keep saying it is baffling to me.

I've already agreed with your opinion that absorbing the ambient ki around Superku would allow GTku to sense and track him, but my point is that this wouldn't actually help him much, and it also wouldn't cause him to achieve Super Saiyan God.

I feel like it would grant SSG, but it’s not really something he needs to win.

Heck, Xeno Goku, a future version of GT Goku, has fought alongside and against CC Goku and other divine beings countless times, but you don't see him or anyone else achieving Super Saiyan God that way.

I…don’t know what you’re even trying to imply here. That’s a whole separate continuity, with its own rules, (and honestly irrelevant).

Snip.

Already spoke on these last two things.

TLDR my point is that Ki Absorption has been demonstrated as a very OOC thing for GTku to do and only really happens when he's pushed REALLY far, so this really isn't a factor till the very end

I could see that being the case, sure.

Superku can just beat down GTku before UI wears off due to GTku not being able to abuse UI's lower accuracy like Granolah can

You don’t have to hit a specific pressure point to hit a guy getting worse at dodging. He can still exploit it. He just can’t hit a specific point to instantly oneshot. Just waiting it out long enough for Superku to get worse enough to hit more consistently in general works.

and therefore will be taking way more hits, and in a worst case scenario (meaning OOC) he'd just Hakai gg

Hakai is a GG, but not an instant and easy cast. Again, the dusting we see him pull off against Moro has not ever been accepted to be Hakai. (In fact, we know it’s likely not because Hakai and Deconstruction are totally different, visually. Ch. 70, Vegeta and Granolah using Hakai right after each other for purposeful parallels, later in the same chapter uses Goku’s Deconstruction move—Pointedly showing they are different. Whatever Goku used on that boulder ain’t Hakai.) Meaning Hakai is likely still a pretty big strain. Especially in PUI.

GTku can't really do anything to Superku without receiving a beatdown,

Again, the difference isn’t really that bad.

It's just a rock paper scissors thing but Superku can make his decision after GTku can. Superku wins in a normal brawl until GTku absorb a big ki attack (which normally never happens anyways since UI Goku doesn't use ki attacks literally ever for some reason), and even if that happens Superku raises his hand and erases GTku on the spot gg. GTku dodge = Superku UI predicts the dodge (which he's demonstrated against Moro) and still erases him anyways

And then—GTku just predicts that? I mean, GTku literally has predicted teleportation and the like. He’s also got insane battlefield awareness. It’s not like GTku just stops and lets himself get hit. GTku would just keep attempting to evade and UI would keep expending tons of energy to try and keep up. Which hits into the stamina wall.

 

[Nonynho]

You're basically getting me a very interesing book to read, congrats, y'all

 

[Mickey1940]

ok this week is gonna be busy for me so imma put a pin on this till next week

but this debate has been fun so far