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1-A matchups?

I disagree with you, Fan. You are greatly exaggerating everything, including how 1-As are.

Even your notion that Abilities are useless to 1-As is incorrect. The way you describe 1-As, no character in fiction would be 1-A, and it's honestly quite silly that you are calling every 1-A Ability "PIS".
 
I have a similar view to FanofRPGs.
 
I understand that you dislike 1-A matches (And from what I understand, characters in general), and think it's impossible to debate them.

But that doesn't mean nobody is able to debate them. Banning 1-A matches is frankly not the best thing to do. All that will be accomplished is that the people who like said debates will only want to debate them even more.
 
But such matches do not seem to work in practice. With the exception of a handful of members, nobody here seems knowledgeable enough about the nature of these characters to properly compare them.
 
@Antvasima

You people are exaggerating the issues. There have been real 1-A victories before, and Reinhard vs Bernkastel would be a victory for Reinhard, but DarkLK started accusing everyone of voting Reinhard of "Not being good debaters" and saying that their reasons were invalid.

The only real problem with 1-A matches is that the characters tend to be very NLF since they are so high-end, and it's difficult to prove the NLFs due to their scale as well.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
I disagree with you, Fan. You are greatly exaggerating everything, including how 1-As are.
Even your notion that Abilities are useless to 1-As is incorrect. The way you describe 1-As, no character in fiction would be 1-A, and it's honestly quite silly that you are calling every 1-A Ability "PIS".
Dimensions are higher infinities. I.E infinite 3-D space is but merely a zero to 4-D hyperspace which is infinitely larger, and that is a mere zero. This goes on for infinity, which MEANS infinity. You cannot numerically go above infinite dimensional. Infinite dimensions * infinity would still just be high 1-B. Concepts applicable to us still exist in almost every dimensional space, but in a different fashion. However, these concepts still do endure.

1-A beings bypass and are beyond dimensional concepts alltogether. Which means that what we always use to some degree even for higher dimensional characters to determine who wins is gone. Speed, irrelevant. Strength, irrelevant. Time manipulation and causality manipulation and the like, irrelevant. They use abilities that are beyond dimensional comprehension. Writers cannot write real 1-A abilties, a 5867348767236-dimensional being could not write 1-A abilities correctly, as they would have to understand a whole new tiering system and all its concepts that is absolutely beyond their comprehension. You are right, PIS is not the right word, its just impossible. Size alteration, infinite big bangs, etc are concepts which lower dimensional beings have, and writers write it in because its the closest to sounding 1-A, but it is not 1-A. These abilties, realistically, are useless, as 1-A beings are above this. I am not sayinng anyone should be downgraded, I am just saying that all these OP moves should really be useless to them.

1-A does not mean just being above dimensions, it means bypassing and not being dimensioned at all. It has its own tiering system, its just no dimensioned being can comprehend it, and never will. We can barely compare something which we cannot comprehend, let alone to characters in another verse.
 
Everything you just posted can be summed up in a single sentence

"1-A are beyond most things and concepts and the gap between the strongest 1-A and the weakest is like 11-C to High 1-B"

Which is a fair point, but it's also an overgeneralization.

Also, the only example of "useless abilities" is Demonbane's Size Alteration, which isn't even his most powerful ability.

Please explain how abilities like Reinhard's, Mercurius', Bernkastel's or Lucifer's are "useless to an 1-A".

Your argument relating to saying that you can't argue 1-A fights is very fallacious, I am sorry.

Also, stop saying that "We cannot comprehend 1-A characters", you have no idea how Suggs that sounds.

They are characters written by human beings. Ergo, they have limits, definitions, and are capable of being understood.

They are not real. We can definitely understand Bernkastel, or Marie, or Lucifer Morningstar.
 
"1-A beings bypass and are beyond dimensional concepts alltogether. Which means that what we always use to some degree even for higher dimensional characters to determine who wins is gone. Speed, irrelevant. Strength, irrelevant. Time manipulation and causality manipulation and the like, irrelevant."

Which is why I assume there are 1-As faster than other 1-As in-verse. Which is why I assume we don't rank 1-A strength as "Irrelevant" but "Outerversal", and one Outeversal can be stronger than another. And I assume this is why Ren Fuuji's Time Manipulation works on 1-As.

And I assume the reason why 1-As are so alien and incomprehensible is why we have 1-As with relatable family dramas / highschool romances in Lucifer and I/O, respectively.

If you think the only way to write a 1-A is doing it like H.P. Lovecraft does with the Outer Gods, that's fine, but please don't generalize all of fiction saying that all 1-As are like that, and are thus completely immeasurable and incomprehensible.

Everyone agreed that Nyarlathotep beats Gan, for instance. 1-A matches can be done.
 
1.

Straight from the tiering page

Characters that have no dimensional limitations, and are beyond scientific definition, in the realm of metaphysics.

Basically, a being or an object which is outside and beyond all concepts of time and space. This is something completely formless, abstract, metaphysical and transcendental. The usual scale does not make sense against a beyond dimensional object. Such beings can not be affected by destruction within the dimensions of time and space, or physical matter and energy. This "space" in which there is no dimension can be the background for any dimensional space. Within such a beyond dimensional "space", a dimensional structure with any number of dimensions can be placed, because there are no restrictions regarding dimensions.


2.

The manifestation of Reinhard's Law, one that follows through with his desire of "loving everything". Through Dies Irae, every member of Reinhard's Legion is brought to his level of existence, with all of their abilities becoming conceptual in nature to their previous effects (Schreiber's Nilfheimr Fenriswolf, for instance, now ignores Causality Manipulation to move faster than his opponent, regardless of whether or not they are beyond time, space, or speed; Machina now kills concepts with his punches, and Eleonore burns concepts away

1-A beings already bypass causality, space and time, this is just redundancy

Bernkastel's magic. Basically, she can locate any world and achieve any end she wishes as long as it is not completely impossible. In theory, she is the witch with the strongest power, but that is actually not realistic, like folding a piece of paper a hundred times so that it'll reach the moon. And she folded it a hundred times.

Basically even a move high 1-B beings could use

Absolutely any other end than that, is unacceptable". When his Law is activated at the time of his death, Mercurius will reset everything if it does not end how he wants it to end, even in realms where time is nonexistent such as the Throne. While everything is resetting, Mercurius is able to change the next timeline in whatever way he likes (Such as erasing any factors leading to Hajun's rise after the events of Marie's route) and this power even allows him to bring back the Throne itself (a place where no form of time exists) after it is destroyed (ex. his fight against Reinhard) and those whose entire existences were wiped out completely with no chance of recovery (as this was able to bring back Re, Reinhard, and Marie after they died and won fighting against Hajun), albeit the butterfly effect that his changes produce is out of his control.

Again, 1-A beings are beyond all time and causality and non-time. This move is irrelevant to them

I could list more, these abilities are things dimensioned characters use.

3.

"Also, stop saying that "We cannot comprehend 1-A characters", you have no idea how Suggs that sounds."

Not an argument

"They are characters written by human beings. Ergo, they have limits, definitions, and are capable of being understood."

Which is where they fall off from 1-A standards. They are 1-A, but the fact that they are written by us means it is not 100% like how dimensional beings work. We cannot write it to be incomprehensable because if we do, what's the point of the story? That is no different from having a weaker character beat a much stronger character for the sake of plot. They are 1-A, but they are made doing dimensioned actions so we can grasp it, for the sake of plot.

4.

"Which is why I assume there are 1-As faster than other 1-As in-verse. Which is why I assume we don't rank 1-A strength as "Irrelevant" but "Outerversal", and one Outeversal can be stronger than another. And I assume this is why Ren Fuuji's Time Manipulation works on 1-As."

Again, comparing 1-A analogs to "speed" to what we consider the rules for speed is like comparing a pinecone to an apple. What we are comparing is so different and abstract, that the writers have it in a way that dimensioned beings use it. Once again, for the sake of us actually understanding it.

"And I assume the reason why 1-As are so alien and incomprehensible is why we have 1-As with relatable family dramas / highschool romances in Lucifer and I/O, respectively."

"If you think the only way to write a 1-A is doing it like H.P. Lovecraft does with the Outer Gods, that's fine, but please don't generalize all of fiction saying that all 1-As are like that, and are thus completely immeasurable and incomprehensible."

Again, if the writer truly is somehow able to write it with true 1-A abiltiies and characteristics. I would not understand it, you would not understand it, the living tribunal wouldn't understand it, literally pre-retcon beyonder wouldn't understand it. Even Cthulhu Mythos takes liberties at times. These are written with plot at the forefront, and so they take liberties that ignore 1-A tiering.
 
Just a friendly reminder for everybody to please keep this conversation polite and respectful, since it seems in danger of getting out of hand.
 
We can understand anything we can write, Fan.

Stop treating 1-A characters as a sublime, transcendent mystery that cannot be comprehended.

1-A characters can have limitations, feelings, doubts, can fail, can use abilities, struggle, be defeated, affected, killed, etc.

You seem to think that the only 1-A characters are these guys
 
Again, a 1-A can absolutely freeze in time another 1-A. Just name it "outerversal time" and call it a day. They don't have time but something akin to it and that's all that we need to know

Also, saying that a human can't write with true 1-A characteristics is overthinking it. First of all, because while here we try to take the sensed part of fiction, it's still fiction and it follows its own rules. For example, every single tier 2 who isn't immeasurable/acausal. It doesn't make sense from a geometrical standpoint. But it's a thing regardless.

Also, we can't comprehend completely even something as simple as tier 2. Can you imagine a being that exists 10 seconds ago and now at the same time? As in, portraying it in your head? Or that decides to walk up to yesterday because it can do it anyway? Someone who becomes acausal? 1-A is the same thing but to a much greater degree.
 
There can be dimensionless 1-A swords, dimensionless 1-A magic, dimensionless 1-A hth, dimensionless 1-A time mnipulation, dimensionless 1-A mental abilities and dimensionless 1-A something else.

Just all this shit is a metaphorical abstraction not related to the physics of any order.

There is no problem here.
 
@DarkLK So, do you think that we should continue to allow these matchups? I thought that you had changed you mind.
 
I just said that apparently I should not have offered it from the very beginning. But the reason is practical implementation. My opinion about the very possibility of holding such matches has not changed.
 
Okay.
 
DarkLK said:
There can be dimensionless 1-A swords, dimensionless 1-A magic, dimensionless 1-A hth, dimensionless 1-A time mnipulation, dimensionless 1-A mental abilities and dimensionless 1-A something else.

Just all this shit is a metaphorical abstraction not related to the physics of any order.

There is no problem here.

My thoughts exactly. This shouldn't even be hard to understand.
 
I'm in agreement with DarkLK and Kaltias. Although (using 2-A as an example here) similarly to how Homura's feat of power draining Madoka is more impressive than Madoka rewriting the concepts of an infinite multiverse, there do need to be feats of this "outerversal time/swords/hth/magic" working on other outerversals, like Tenma Yato stopping time in the outerversal Throne.
 
Well, my view is similar to DarkLK's. If everybody were as knowledgeable as he is regarding 1-A characters, we could get proper matchup arguments, but currently they largely seem to end up as popularity contests.
 
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