VS Battles Wiki Forum

Eh, I guess, though I personally think Awakened + Buso Kaku was comparable to Sword King (with and/or without Buso) to some degree.

That Kaido thing makes sense I guess.

But hopefully future chapters will highlight the level of disparity between Zoro and Kaku on-screen much better so we can do better comparisons with less guessing.

Ok I went and read your Zoro sandbox and I've got an issue with it:

Zoro's regular lai attacks (Not the ones utilizing his Dura Neg with breath cutting) are being treated as stronger than Zoro's other named techniques like the onigiri which doesn't make much sense.

Onigiri couldn't even scratch Kaido. Iai one-shot and badly damaged someone who took a hit from Base Kidd with only moderate injuries.

Unless we somehow scale Onigiri to Killer, we got nothing to go on (there's one dude who claims that this manual says Base Zoro's Onigiri = Killer during their attack on Kaido but he refuses to name the source, just gives a pic, so that's useless).

If there was some way to scale Onigiri to the same level to Iai, I'll change it to "Named Attacks".

The scaling just doesn't support Onigiri being at that level, but I understand your argument.

I'm sorry but what you said just doesn't make sense. His Onigiri clearly did scatch him considering he bleeds from the attack and I don't know why you're using Kid when he self admitted that he didn't think it was possible to hurt even base Kaidou with physical blows.

We don't need to scale him to Killer because blatantly that onigiri is stronger than Killer; Killer's beheading claw couldn't draw blood at Kaidou's vital spot while the onigiri did from Kaidou's chest.

That makes sense, but tbf even the Scabbards drew blood from Base Kaido, and we know Killer > Scabbards via Kaifu deflecting when a single Kaifu one-shot Kiku.

We also know Kidd > Scabbards.

I do see your point though, and it is worth considering.

I'll definitely think it over and if I add it I'll change "Iai attacks" to "named attacks".

The Scabbards damaged Kaidou with their Ryuo/Buso while Kiku in that moment Vs the Kaifu isn't necessarily using haki to defend herself considering they could not see the attack coming.

While Killer and Kid may be above the base Scabbards that doesn't necessarily apply to their Buso ratings (wouldn't even make sense when it comes to killer)

I find putting the Buso Scabbards above Base Kidd to he odd when Base Kidd was going 1v1 off screen with BM without issue while the buso scabbards (who didn't even have dura neg IIRC) failed to impress a casual Kaido.

Kinemon even called Base Kidd and Killer "mighty".

Literally none of what you've said is a valid justification for why Kid or Killer should scale above the Buso Scabbards.

Both Kid's and Killer's own statement and showings prove they were unable to damage Kaidou with pure AP, while the Scabbards showed the could at least to an extent harm him.

The Scabbards failed to impress Kaidou as he was measuring them against Oden, hoping they would fill the role of mighty samurai who could kill him. He called their attacks shallow the same way pre-hao infusion Luffy called his own attacks shallow (who I remind you is also above Kid and Killer)

Kin'emon calling them mighty pirates has nothing to do with power scaling, check the statement

Wasn't the consensus that "piercing damage such as the Scabbards is less impressive compared to other types of damage"?

And Base Kidd still threw hands off-screen with a Big Mom who possessed all her Homies, and was fine when Law showed up.

I don't mind Zoro without Buso Haki being superior to Base Kidd and Killer, I just want more backup for it.

These are Early Wano-Rooftop Zoro's no-Haki feats outside of the Iai attack:

1. Drawing a small bit of blood from Kaido which Killer didn't do.
2. Matching Denjiro before Enma training.
3. Scaring Base Queen, which may or may not be a legit feat.
4. Matching Base X Drake, who scales to Apoo (although it's weird since Hybrid Drake was also even with Apoo) and downscales from Base Yamato.

Also, I mentioned in the Zoro sandbox that it's implied that his Hao Infusion > his Enma (based on King's reaction to both). That good with you?

It is, but they didn't just draw blood from Kaidou with only piercing they also cut him.

End of the day they succeeded in damaging him while Killer and Kid didn't, so this comparison you've made to claim that the onigiri is inferior to the lai due to Apoo is unsupported.

Idk why you're still bringing up these off-screen feats when they don't effect Kid's statement (they're also meaningless when we know Punk Rotten was one-shot by the same big mom you're claiming he threw hands with)

This has nothing to do with Buso, this is you claiming his lai techniques are a higher degree over his other named techniques like the onigiri.

I don't have an issue with hao being above Enma but if you could explain it in more detail that would be great.

Since you have made some decent points about Zoro in Base being above Kidd and Killer, lemme see what I can do in the sandbox for Base Zoro's scaling and I can get back to you.

Same with the Hao > Enma thing.

Thank you for your feedback on the latter, btw.

I don't think it's base Zoro above kid and killer, just his named techniques.

Ok, that makes more sense.

I made the changes to his sandbox for his Strongest Attacks (Iai and Onigiri) and the implications for Hao Infusion > Enma.

Tell me if this looks about right as a scaling chain:

No-sword King < Base Zoro < Base King w/sword < Buso King =< Buso Zoro = Buso + Flames King < Zoan King (was pressuring Buso Zoro and forced him to use Enma) < Enma Zoro < Flame-On King's durability =< 1-sword Hao Infusion < 3-sword Hao Infusion Zoro < King of Hell.

Holy shit, King of Hell is absurdly strong.

I made the changes to his sandbox for his Strongest Attacks (Iai and Onigiri) and the implications for Hao Infusion > Enma.

Click to expand...

The justification for his Onigiri feat against Kaidou is still listed in his base section, also the part about it impressing Kaidou shouldn't be included since he wasn't impressed with them when comparing them to Oden (which Kaidou had no reason to do for Killer and Zoro at that point)

The new justification doesn't need to be there, just move the justification that he had for his base there instead. Also I disagree with the kid/killer comparison since something like that shouldn't be included on Zoro's profile rather for Kaidou's base durability justification.

The Hao justification seems fine.

(Also re-reading made me realize most of the stuff I we discussed before and I disagreed with are still listed)

Tell me if this looks about right as a scaling chain:

No-sword King < Base Zoro < Base King w/sword < Buso King =< Buso Zoro = Buso + Flames King < Zoan King (was pressuring Buso Zoro and forced him to use Enma) < Enma Zoro < Flame-On King's durability =< 1-sword Hao Infusion < 3-sword Hao Infusion Zoro < King of Hell.

Click to expand...

Two issues:

1. Zoan King isn't above Buso King or "Buso + Flames" King. Buso King was shown to be significantly superior to an earlier Buso Zoro, who previously was able to stop and repel Zoan King. While Zoan King did pressure the later Buso Zoro that doesn't necessarily mean he's superior or comparable to him as Zoro was caught mid-air; it's the same way as how Kaku was able to pressure and push-back Buso Zoro in egghead for the same reasons but knocked him down when he finally retaliated.
2. Not sure there's enough definitive proof to say Ittoryu Hao Infusion can damage flame-on King, while it may be suggested it's still ambiguous for using in actual scaling. I think it's better to keep the statements in mind for the future if Zoro does actually use hao infusion against a seraphim.

I actually don't think Zoro was using Buso when Buso King stomped him. They don't look purely blackened like when Zoro uses Buso.

2. Noted. Although it was only after Zoro hit him with Hao Infusion that King truly began to panic.

I also removed the Onigiri part from Base Zoro's section.

Also, what do you think of him scaring Base Queen?

Or X Drake's Base scaling flat-out to Apoo for fighting him in Base off-screen?

Both those could affect Base Rooftop Zoro's normal scaling.

I actually don't think Zoro was using Buso when Buso King stomped him. They don't look purely blackened like when Zoro uses Buso.

Click to expand...

Unlike with Enma unleashed which is noticeable due to it's unique effect, determining regular buso usage on Zoro's swords with far off panels is especially hard as it has a very small difference with how Oda usually draws katana swords.

Due to this there's a bunch of art inconsistencies with buso even in the volumes releases which should revise these types of things (as seen here)

However, just like when he blocked the Hakai, we wouldn't assume just due to this vague art that Zoro senselessly decided to turn off his buso when we see up to that point and afterwards he consistently used it against King and in that instance there was no reason not to use it.

Quick question, at the bottom of this panel, when King has his leg raised, is he using kicks with that leg to clash with Zoro?

In the middle of the panel we see King swinging his sword, but not in the bottom of the panel.

I was hoping the anime would clarify it, but they didn't show King raising his leg.

Point of these types of panels is to illustrate that King utilizes all his limbs to attack for the sake of either overwhelming his opponent with the sheer number of attacks or by catching his opponent off-guard by overwhelming them with sudden different types of attacks, that's what he did early on in the fight which is why Zoro comments he's not a swordsman but a killing machine that will use anything to gain an advantage (Here)

It's not that King is clashing evenly with Zoro with just one foot, rather, he's throwing whatever he can at Zoro. Although the main takeaway would be that he's primarily using his sword to block based on the dialogue from Zoro stating he's blocking despite Zoro's attacks apparently being ineffective while King's flame is on.

That makes sense.

Thanks!