VS Battles Wiki Forum

3. I see where you're coming from, but the statement is just saying that the Scabbards somewhat took hits from Kaido physically, yet got one shot by Kaifu, meaning that Kaifu did more to them than physical attacks.

7.5. I guess, but it's good support and coincides with him not using Haki the first time he broke King's mask.

Eseseso said:

In the past for OP, my understanding was that we did use the anime to clarify certain usages of Haki when the manga was unclear about it, such as Luffy's usage of durability-negating Buso Internal Destruction/Ryou against Zoan Kaido during the fight on the rooftop.

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To prevent cluttering the RVR since it seems like there's a more pressing ongoing report atm I'll answer here:

I don't remember this being the case but assuming this is true it's quite a bit different than the edit you made. In the manga there is no visual indicator for when Luffy uses internal destruction besides verbal confirmation and the handcuff scenes, while Zoro using Enma does have a visual indicator shared both in the manga and anime with his swords being covered in aura but of course in the manga Zoro was not shown using it 24/7 with hao throughout the fight which the anime changed.

Tbf that Luffy ryou stuff was something involving Mitch, I don't know enough about that.

I concede Zoro wasn't using Hao outside of him slicing King open like a tuna can those 3 times (and that one attack King dodged), I was just referring to Enma.

Such as how Zoro had Enma activated right before and right at the end of his clash with Zoan King, so I simply don't think it logical that he turned off his Enma for just that clash, especially when we get that close-up view at the end of their clash with Zoro indeed having Enma on his blades. IMO we don't see Enma during most of the clash since it's not up-close until that last panel.

I do appreciate you taking this chat outside of RVR, otherwise it would've been messy.

Such as how Zoro had Enma activated right before and right at the end of his clash with Zoan King, so I simply don't think it logical that he turned off his Enma for just that clash, especially when we get that close-up view at the end of their clash with Zoro indeed having Enma on his blades. IMO we don't see Enma during most of the clash since it's not up-close until that last panel.

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Ok, there's an issue with this first line as the moment before their confrontation we know Zoro climbed out of the basement and the next scene we see him he isn't shown with any swords out or with any sign of Enma's aura being shown, keeping in mind even far-off shots show the aura on him which I'll get into later (Here)

The reason Enma is shown in the close-up shot and immediately after is because that's when he re-activates it to knock away King as prior he was just using buso to contend with him.

After 1032 when Enma is being used the aura appears on all three blades and is noticeable even from far off shots, the clashes not being shown as close-ups literally cannot be used to claim the aura wasn't clear or noticeable because even then it's always shown:
(Here)

I do appreciate you taking this chat outside of RVR, otherwise it would've been messy.

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No problem.

Will likely reply later in more detail but I will say that, in King's defense, when Zoro knocked him away with Enma in that last panel, it seems that Zoro was also knocked back somewhat by that clash. I think.

Not related to the above argument about Haki, just noting that.

And taking an Enma attack and just being knocked back is honestly an impressive feat for King's dura, ngl.

Also just curious, which would you say is faster, Thunder Bagua or Flame Off King/Zoro's reactions?

Will likely reply later in more detail but I will say that, in King's defense, when Zoro knocked him away with Enma in that last panel, it seems that Zoro was also knocked back somewhat by that clash. I think.

Not related to the above argument about Haki, just noting that.

And taking an Enma attack and just being knocked back is honestly an impressive feat for King's dura, ngl.

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I don't see it, although It wouldn't surprise me considering Zoro during that confrontation was in the air with no solid footing.

Definitely seems like valid scaling for his Zoan Flame-on Durability.

Also just curious, which would you say is faster, Thunder Bagua or Flame Off King/Zoro's reactions?

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Probably Flame off King & Zoro's reactions:
Reason for this scaling chain as Luffy's FS still allowed him to just react to Kaidou's thunder bagua and that his body was just barely able to dodge it. King moved FTE compared to Zoro making it a true blitz so overall I'd say King moved faster.

Ok, thanks.

Also, I know we don't see eye to eye on Kaku scaling, but I am legitimately curious: How do you currently scale Kaku (including his base and his rokushiki/forms)?

Also, I know we don't see eye to eye on Kaku scaling, but I am legitimately curious: How do you currently scale Kaku (including his base and his rokushiki/forms)?

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Sure, this is roughly where I have him:

We saw that Ittoryu Zoro was capable of destroying base Kaku's amane dachi and in the small panel clash we see Ittoryu Zoro and base Kaku clashing, however, it's very plausible he was using either Rokushiki or Buso to enhance his kick as the clash sfx was "kaching" which is typically used when two metal/hard objects clash like Buso or swords.

We saw Buso Santoryu overpowered that Buso + Rokushiki attack from Kaku so that's self-explanatory.

I see. While I can see why you think Kaku was using Rokushiki when clashing with Base Zoro (don't agree with it but I can see why), they probably would've shown him using Buso if he really was using it, so I don't think he was using Buso.

Also, do you think Kaku would just scale to Base X Drake or would he downscale from Base Zoro (who should be 1PT for the reasons I mentioned in my Zoro sandbox even without Haki) to Baseline 6-A?

And what tier do you think Awakened Kaku would be? High 6-B or 6-A?

Not claiming he's using Buso, just that for that to occur he would have used an ability to enhance his leg with steel like properties which both achieve.

Which version of Kaku? Also maybe I've forgotten but I don't know about any Zoro sandbox.

I don't know about any High 6-B or 6-A scaling as it hasn't been addressed yet in any CRT.

The Zoro sandbox I'm working on.

It's in that CRT with the 1PT Aokiji calc.

Doesn't Kaku usually use both legs and 2 swords though?

Not gonna comment on all that as at this point it doesn't seem like any of those calcs are going to progress anywhere unfortunately.

What are you taking about?

1. True

2. Kaku uses 2 swords and both his 2 legs in his fighting style, just like how Zoro usually uses 3 swords.

Yeah, what about it?

So "Four sword" Kaku should be above his 1-"sword" self, just like how 3-sword Zoro > 1-sword Zoro.

Not sure about that, if this was base Kaku it would be valid but it's his Rokushiki. Zoro scales above amane dachi which Is Kaku using both legs and Kaku doesn't actually have any Rokushiki techniques that rely on using all four of his limbs.

True, but Yontoryu is literally all about using all 4 of his limbs.

Also, what do you think Awakened Kaku's scaling would be? Mitch mentioned something about him scaling above Base Zoro by forcing Zoro to use Buso (even though Buso Zoro clearly overpowered him).

Also, I had a thought. So Awakened Kaku's AP doesn't scale to Buso Zoro. But, he managed to do better against Buso Zoro than Base + Buso King did (as King got pushed back in that panel where Zoro mocked him for being scared), so he should be comparable to Base + Buso King or even Base no-Haki sword King, even if Buso Zoro is stronger than him.

What do you think?

It's just he lacks any Yontoryu techniques that can be compared with Rokushiki.

That makes sense to me.

Not sure about that, Awakened Kaku w/Rokushiki & Buso got overpowered to a greater degree than King was when the two were clashing.

1. That makes sense.

3. He should at least be comparable to either no-Haki King w/ a sword or even to Buso King since Zoro pushed him back after getting pissed (still don't understand what Zoro meant by fighting wiggly people in Wano, not even King was wiggly), while Zoro was pushing Buso King back while casually taunting him about fearing KoH.

Against King it was multiple continuous strikes that was pushing him back eventually, effectively the difference between them wasn't massive but Zoro undeniably had the upper hand.

With Kaku a single strike was enough to stop his attack and send him into the ground which is a more significant difference.

As for the wiggly things he was talking about in Wano, I guess he meant Kaidou since his tatsumaki Kaidou functioned similarly.