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Du Sollst — Dies Irae Comeback! (Shinza Banshō Cosmology Proposal)

Can I ask something, reading the cosmology blog I can see the tier for Hadou Gods very clear, but whatabout Gudou Gods. Besides the Legion buff, what are their tiers going to be ? They scale to Creation only or they could scale to Singularity ?
 
Mugen-Kokutosho-Jigoku said:
This is just a fallacious reasoning
Click to expand...
My issue isn't using the scaling of old, my issue is that the verse is widely known to have people who care only for wanking the series and was removed from this site for that very reason.

Mugen-Kokutosho-Jigoku said:
just because in the past the supporters argued in bad faith doesn't necessarily imply that this proposal is also made in bad faith
Click to expand...
I didn't say that this proposal was.

I have no way of knowing your intentions or beliefs, which is an issue.

Mugen-Kokutosho-Jigoku said:
As i've mentioned in the discussion thread of the verse, i am a humble fan that read pretty much every material that was available (which includes all the main Shinza entries) and even supports Masada on Fantia. I, much like the others, do not intend to bring it back just to wank it beyond human imagination but rather to rebuild its reputation, as we're all tired of that very status you mentioned.
Click to expand...
If that is your true intentions, then it would ease me if the series comes back despite my protests to it, but I remain in firm refusal of the verse coming back.

I know too well that having a person at the helm with good intentions doesn't keep a verse from the type of wanking that posers and tourists will desperately try and engage in. I've been often mortified when I see twisted versions of WoD's scaling on alternate platforms, I'm only grateful that I am able to keep people away from WoD who are tourists.

A reasonable concern I have is that Shinza isn't as niche in the Scaling community as WoD is. In fact, I'd almost argue that Shinza Bansho is the face of the 1-A and above tiers with the possible exclusion of Cthulhu Mythos and Featherine.

Mugen-Kokutosho-Jigoku said:
More than 10 translator members are present within the team behind this proposal, i don't see why we should doubt each and every single one of them because of this sort of association to the previous supporters and translators the verse had.
Click to expand...
Tragically it's happened before. This isn't to say I personally doubt each and every single translation and translator, just that I remain sceptical of the conclusions based on Shinza Bansho's untrustworthy reputation and history.

Mugen-Kokutosho-Jigoku said:
Well, it's ultimately up to you, but i'd consider what i wrote above before taking any stance on the topic.
Click to expand...
I have taken into account your words and I do genuinely hope what you say is true and that you will repair Shinza Bansho's reputation but ultimately, I don't think that series which rely almost entirely on translation is conducive for anything other than later abuse.

I may very well be a minority voice, and I imagine I am. I also doubt I will sway people away from supporting Shinza Bansho, but I was asked for my opinion and this is it.
 
Udlmaster said:
My issue isn't using the scaling of old, my issue is that the verse is widely known to have people who care only for wanking the series
Click to expand...

Oh don't worry i firmly agree with you on that, i had my own fair share of experiences with scalers of the verse and they weren't always that nice honestly.

Udlmaster said:
If that is your true intentions, then it would ease me if the series comes back despite my protests to it, but I remain in firm refusal of the verse coming back.
Click to expand...

That's a fair conclusion, i had also came to such a conclusion long time ago. However, the problem lies in the fact that refusing to fix the mess that has been Shinza Banshō on the wiki won't change anything and thus will make even good-hearted people from it bear the reputation of people who they themselves don't align their ideas and opinions with. Hence, ultimately the solution is to face the issue directly, in the hope of being able to end it once and for all.

Udlmaster said:
I know too well that having a person at the helm with good intentions doesn't keep a verse from the type of wanking that posers and tourists will desperately try and engage in. I've been often mortified when I see twisted versions of WoD's scaling on alternate platforms, I'm only grateful that I am able to keep people away from WoD who are tourists.
Click to expand...

You're right on that, however it does surely bring about change, which is the most important aspect to consider. Trust me, i have been mortified as well due to the amount of misinformation the powerscaling community has spread on sites such as Vs Battle Wiki over the course of the years, thus i want to change this and delete all the misinterpretations that have been spread all over the community in order for people to actually open their eyes to what the series truly is. I too am willing to keep away from the series the people who won't do anything but speak of their headcanons.

Udlmaster said:
Tragically it's happened before. This isn't to say I personally doubt each and every single translation and translator, just that I remain sceptical of the conclusions based on Shinza Bansho's untrustworthy reputation and history.
Click to expand...

Again, fair point, however that won't solve the issue, but rather lock it away until someone else brings it up again, which definitely doesn't sound good.

Udlmaster said:
I have taken into account your words and I do genuinely hope what you say is true and that you will repair Shinza Bansho's reputation but ultimately, I don't think that series which rely almost entirely on translation is conducive for anything other than later abuse.

I may very well be a minority voice, and I imagine I am. I also doubt I will sway people away from supporting Shinza Bansho, but I was asked for my opinion and this is it.
Click to expand...

It's fine, i appreciate all kinds of opinions shared on this thread, even the opposing ones. After all, it's always nice to hear a different perspective on the matter.
 
Udlmaster said:
I am immediately and automatically sceptical about this verse on principle, we've brought it back twice I believe and every time people will consistently and unapologetically lie about the material within the series.

Shinza Bansho has a (very undeserved in my opinion) status as Holy cow of Verses debating and is riddled with posers and tourists who's only interest in the series is not to engage with it in good faith but to wank.

Once again, we will have to rely on translators who will act as a medium and they simply cannot be trusted (this is not to say any individual is untrustworthy, to be clear, this is simply the case that this verse has a prolific history of this very concern), even when we had supposedly trusted Translation Team members work on the series, it turned out to be fabricated or were the highest interpretation of the words possible.
Click to expand...

No one cares.

The reason you were called was to evaluate the content of the blog (I don't even know why, since you aren't a staff member), not to present unfounded skepticism and try to indirectly sabotage the thread.

If you think the translations are wrong, prove it, and we can gladly discuss it.
 
Mugen-Kokutosho-Jigoku said:
On a side note, i'd like to remind everyone here that the verse was already allowed to formally come back in this thread, so whether or not the verse should come back is completely out of the topic this specific threads aims to discuss. This is in order to avoid derailing it and just flooding the thread with unnecessary comments. Thanks.
Click to expand...
NGL, the first page of this thread is taken up by people making jokes and memes and the second page literally has a guy posting a video that is completely irrelevant to the thread (and more memes)

This thread is already full of unnecessary comments.

ExcelsisBerny said:
No one cares.

The reason you were called was to evaluate the content of the blog (I don't even know why, since you aren't a staff member), not to present unfounded skepticism and try to indirectly sabotage the thread.

If you think the translations are wrong, prove it, and we can gladly discuss it.
Click to expand...
Reading comprehension diff'd.

Honestly, this just makes me more concerned because twice now I've been very clear and twice people have misread plain English. Am I to now accept that these same people can properly evaluate and give informed support for a verse that's going from JP to Eng accurately when they lack proper comprehension of Eng -> Eng?

My scepticism is founded in the knowledge that this series is known for wankery, that the series has an immense amount of people who continue to wank the verse and that verses where we have to rely solely on translations in the past has resulted in verses who've been wanked to no end, namely Mondaiji, Demonbane, Fortissimo and old Shinza Bansho which were deleted for these reasons.

That is founded scepticism. So much so that even Mugen acknowledged my concerns as fair and heard me out in a very polite and respectful way. I also think it's absurd to act as if there isn't an inherent conflict of interest that is involved when translating a verse for the sole purpose of scaling that would lead someone to be meaningfully sceptical.

Let's not get it twisted, fan translations and most of all Scaler translations are not the same as academic translations who translate for work or for a passion in translation; scaler translations are done for the sole purpose of scaling and that is an immediate red-flag to any reasonable person; it's not different than the whole "We investigated ourselves and found no wrong"

Likewise, I didn't say that the translations were wrong, and like I said in that post and posts after that I was not calling any member dishonest or making any claims about the people here, only about the stated facts about the verse and its history.

I don't have the ability to properly evaluate the verse because I don't speak Japanese, I have no ability to audit and it would be dishonest of me to then affirm or deny the scale when I can't assess the language personally, I would either have to rely on someone else's interpretation; at which point, why bother asking anyone else; or would have to use machine translation like Google translate or an AI which is both yuck for the latter and famously inaccurate for the former, which would again mean I would not be doing so accurately.

Mugen could be 100% correct, be fluent in Japanese and have a comprehension of the language never before known to mankind and I would still not be able to verify because I lack the skills necessary. I can neither affirm his conclusions or contest them and it would be pointless to quibble over it stupidly when I do not have such abilities and it lands firmly in the reasons why I simply do not see there being constructive use for largely untranslated series on the site; we cannot independently audit them.
 
Last edited:
Udlmaster said:
NGL, the first page of this thread is taken up by people making jokes and memes and the second page literally has a guy posting a video that is completely irrelevant to the thread (and more memes). This thread is already full of unnecessary comments.
Click to expand...

I understand that but at least, in this way, we can limit them even further than switching this thread to Staff Only, which sounds like a good way to go for me.

Udlmaster said:
Honestly, this just makes me more concerned because twice now I've been very clear and twice people have misread plain English. Am I to now accept that these same people can properly evaluate and give informed support for a verse that's going from JP to Eng accurately when they lack proper comprehension of Eng -> Eng?
Click to expand...

I suppose the problem here lies in the fact that, much like i already wrote in the comment above, the verse is said to be allowed to formally come back on the wiki and thus trying to discuss regarding that point, which is completely unrelated to the topic of the thread, kind of results in "useless" comments (not to discredit your scepticism or opinion, which is more than welcomed and justified, as i've already wrote before, it's just that i don't have a better term to use lol) that really just flood the thread instead of having moderators and staff members actually evaluating the proposal. That being said, i appreciate your honesty and concerns.
 
Mugen-Kokutosho-Jigoku said:
I suppose the problem here lies in the fact that, much like i already wrote in the comment above, the verse is said to be allowed to formally come back on the wiki and thus trying to discuss regarding that point, which is completely unrelated to the topic of the thread, kind of results in "useless" comments (not to discredit your scepticism or opinion, which is more than welcomed and justified, as i've already wrote before, it's just that i don't have a better term to use lol) that really just flood the thread instead of having moderators and staff members actually evaluating the proposal. That being said, i appreciate your honesty and concerns.
Click to expand...
I am totally okay with that, as I said, I am likely a minority voice in this matter.

And I do genuinely appreciate your respectful approach, even though my current position remains unchanged, I have hope that you can do what others have failed and that you can fix the verse for good.

I can't comment on your translation ability but I do have at least confidence in you as a person based on our interactions here.
 
Antvasima said:
Are any of you willing to help out here please? 🙏
Click to expand...
I'll do a short response, but I don't feel like debating extensively about Dies Irae
  • Universes being Low 2-C to 2-A is supported
  • The Canvas being 1-A is supported
  • The Third Throne is not 1-A+. The wording uses a large repeating finite number. This is the 1-B equivalent of 1-A
  • The Fourth Throne being 1-A+ I'm fine with
  • I don't see the Singularity as High 1-A. It being part of the Canvas, albeit a hole within it, is not the same as Meta-Meta Transcendence. The fact it's bar for bar part of the Throne and its process to me means it's just within the hierarchy at an unknown but higher level
  • Divine Throne being High 1-A is fine
  • Zero I can vaguely get as Tier 0, but I would need more from it since if things interact with it then it's just High 1-A+
 
Udlmaster said:
Reading comprehension diff'd.
Click to expand...

This is what you wrote:

Once again, we will have to rely on translators who will act as a medium and they simply cannot be trusted (this is not to say any individual is untrustworthy, to be clear, this is simply the case that this verse has a prolific history of this very concern), even when we had supposedly trusted Translation Team members work on the series, it turned out to be fabricated or were the highest interpretation of the words possible.
Click to expand...

It is obvious to anyone with eyes that you are trying to imply the translations could be wrong, and that is why you are claiming the translators cannot be trusted because there have been cases of fabrication in the past.

You are presenting unfounded skepticism based on a precedent that has nothing to do with Aleplaza or his team.

So I have not misinterpreted anything.

I invite you to provide the translations you believe inflate the content, and if you do not have them, to stop filling the thread with messages that add nothing and only make the thread take longer to be accepted.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
The Third Throne is not 1-A+. The wording uses a large repeating finite number. This is the 1-B equivalent of 1-A
Click to expand...

So it's like just layers into 1-A?

Qawsedf234 said:
I don't see the Singularity as High 1-A. It being part of the Canvas, albeit a hole within it, is not the same as Meta-Meta Transcendence. The fact it's bar for bar part of the Throne and its process to me means it's just within the hierarchy at an unknown but higher level
Click to expand...

This doesn't make sense, it's not part of the Canvas and that's explicitly repeated multiple times within the scans. This is also analogous to how it works in real life: if you pierce a hole in a piece of paper, it's not like the empty space created is still part of it. Also:

Qawsedf234 said:
Divine Throne being High 1-A is fine
Click to expand...

Is this for the Throne or the System? If it's for the former, it doesn't make sense to have it being High 1-A and the Singularity being lower in terms of tiering.

Qawsedf234 said:
Zero I can vaguely get as Tier 0, but I would need more from it since if things interact with it then it's just High 1-A+
Click to expand...

They don't interact with it, as shown in the scans they literally got dissolved into it by reaching the Land of Beginnings.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
I don't see the Singularity as High 1-A. It being part of the Canvas, albeit a hole within it, is not the same as Meta-Meta Transcendence.
Click to expand...

I think there is a misunderstanding here.

While it is true that the hole formed by the clash of two hegemonies is also called a Singularity, what Ale calls the Singularity in the blog is the pure void devoid of laws that exists beyond creation/ the canvas.

The hole is only a method of access to that realm.
 
Mugen-Kokutosho-Jigoku said:
So it's like just layers into 1-A?
Click to expand...
It's 1-A by a large but unknown countable number.
Mugen-Kokutosho-Jigoku said:
This doesn't make sense, it's not part of the Canvas and that's explicitly repeated multiple times within the scans. This is also analogous to how it works in real life: if you pierce a hole in a piece of paper, it's not like the empty space created is still part of it. Also:
Click to expand...
I don't see the Singularity having enough Meta-Meta transcendence evidence. The fact that it's linked to the Thrones means it can't be transcendent over them. Your hole example shows this. The paper exist within the same system as the empty space. The empty space isn't a meta-physical layer of reality above it.
Mugen-Kokutosho-Jigoku said:
Is this for the Throne or the System? If it's for the former, it doesn't make sense to have it being High 1-A and the Singularity being lower in terms of tiering.
Click to expand...
The Divine Throne, as its entirety and highest level being High 1-A, is fine. The Throne by itself, in its lower iterations, wouldn't be High 1-A.
Mugen-Kokutosho-Jigoku said:
They don't interact with it, as shown in the scans they literally got dissolved into it by reaching the Land of Beginnings.
Click to expand...
I'm asking for more to it. Or if that's all the work has given on the subject.
ExcelsisBerny said:
While it is true that the hole formed by the clash of two hegemonies is also called a Singularity, what Ale calls the Singularity in the blog is the pure void devoid of laws that exists beyond creation/ the canvas.
Click to expand...
I don't see it as being High 1-A currently
 
Qawsedf234 said:
It's 1-A by a large but unknown countable number.
Click to expand...

Aight.

Qawsedf234 said:
I don't see the Singularity having enough Meta-Meta transcendence evidence. The fact that it's linked to the Thrones means it can't be transcendent over them.
Click to expand...

I think you're mistaking the terminology here, Throne is used for the actual seat that governs and emanates all of creation, while the different eras are called "Heavens". Thrones is used as a synonym but the correct term is, as i've already said, Heavens. And no, it's not linked to the Creation/Canvas of any Heaven, it's completely transcendent over it and referred to multiple times as being nowhere in reference to it, showing how it doesn't belong to it.

Qawsedf234 said:
Your hole example shows this. The paper exist within the same system as the empty space. The empty space isn't a meta-physical layer of reality above it.
Click to expand...

Them existing under the same system doesn't necessarily entail them being bounded to the same tier however... It's also shown to be superior to Creation/Canvas many times, as i've already said, being disconnected from it and independent of said framework, completely transcending it.

Qawsedf234 said:
I'm asking for more to it. Or if that's all the work has given on the subject.
Click to expand...

More or less everything about it is already mentioned in the blog.
 
ExcelsisBerny said:
It is obvious to anyone with eyes that you are trying to imply the translations could be wrong
Click to expand...
Are you saying they can’t be? Because “to anyone with eyes” I don’t think the idea that humans can make human faults is some kind of radical idea.


ExcelsisBerny said:
You are presenting unfounded skepticism based on a precedent that has nothing to do with Aleplaza or his team.
Click to expand...
I’m sorry but your inability to separate scepticism and an accusation of falsehood is not my problem, nor is your inability to plainly read where I directly say:

(this is not to say any individual is untrustworthy, to be clear, this is simply the case that this verse has a prolific history of this very concern)
Click to expand...
You literally had to bold around the qualifier for what I’m saying.

The version of my argument in your head is not my concern.

You are simply being needlessly argumentative and defensive considering Mugen already agreed that my concerns were fair points.

Move on
 
Qawsedf234 said:
I'll do a short response, but I don't feel like debating extensively about Dies Irae
  • Universes being Low 2-C to 2-A is supported
  • The Canvas being 1-A is supported
  • The Third Throne is not 1-A+. The wording uses a large repeating finite number. This is the 1-B equivalent of 1-A
  • The Fourth Throne being 1-A+ I'm fine with
  • I don't see the Singularity as High 1-A. It being part of the Canvas, albeit a hole within it, is not the same as Meta-Meta Transcendence. The fact it's bar for bar part of the Throne and its process to me means it's just within the hierarchy at an unknown but higher level
  • Divine Throne being High 1-A is fine
  • Zero I can vaguely get as Tier 0, but I would need more from it since if things interact with it then it's just High 1-A+
Click to expand...
Thank you very much for helping out. 🙏❤️
 
Antvasima said:
Anyway, Udlmaster makes a good point in that verses with no official English translations are very hard to verify the information from. 🙏
Click to expand...

All the translations were made by the wiki’s own translation team. Instead of merely raising doubts, I repeat, question the specific translations you think are wrong and that is it. It is not that difficult.
 
I suppose i'll re-organize the counter-argument regarding the Singularity into one single reply since there hasn't been a reply in a whole day.

I don't see the Singularity as High 1-A. It being part of the Canvas, albeit a hole within it, is not the same as Meta-Meta Transcendence. The fact it's bar for bar part of the Throne and its process to me means it's just within the hierarchy at an unknown but higher level
Click to expand...
I don't see the Singularity having enough Meta-Meta transcendence evidence. The fact that it's linked to the Thrones means it can't be transcendent over them. Your hole example shows this. The paper exist within the same system as the empty space. The empty space isn't a meta-physical layer of reality above it.
Click to expand...

The main contention regarding the tiering of the Singularity stems from the fact that it is, apparently, supposed to be part of the Canvas, albeit a hole within it. However, the blog suggests the opposite:

That's right, what happens when the critical limit is surpassed? Let us imagine this as a single sheet of paper. Upon it, at this moment, there exists a painting called the "known". In a corner of this painting, restricted to the region called Shambala, a color called "stagnation" and a color called "dead" continue to overlap layers while vying for territory against one another. These two colors possess different natures. The color "stagnation" is like a colored pencil, while the color "dead" is a brush. And furthermore: imagine that this paint is being applied directly from the "tube", without intermediaries. And now, this birth canal (tube) has burst open. In order to compete with the painting speed of the two, the birth canal (tube) was simply obstructing the paint.
Click to expand...
And as a result, what occurs? An excessive pressure of layers on the painting overlap beyond their limits and end up tearing a hole in the paper itself, even before the painting is concluded. Yes, a hole opens. That is what it means to surpass the critical limit. And so, how should such a thing be defined? Though it exists upon the paper, it is not a drawing, nor is it a color. In other words, it is a Singularity of the world.
Click to expand...
Two colors that, together, expand their territories, pierce the canvas called the world. That which awaits beyond is a place that possesses no color at all, so to speak, the Singularity of this world. But the girl of the Twilight does not cast even a single glance back toward her former home. She feels shame within herself for when she was imprisoned in that Singularity, and now she yearns for a different horizon. Ren, Rea, Isaak, and also Reinhard, share the same feeling, crossing through the Twilight and advancing toward even greater depths. Descending to the position of the “Throne”, the very root of all phenomena. Yes, everything is—
Click to expand...

The Singularity pretty blatantly lies beyond the Canvas, as it is a realm that can only be accessed by piercing a hole in the paper through an excessive amount of repaints caused by a clash between two hegemonies. Furthermore:

Upon the scaffold, lifting her eyes toward the distant sky, Marie murmurs. Those were the first words of her life as a human being, and also those believed to be her last. The jewel of Saint-Malo, Marguerite Breuil. It was fated that she would fall like a flower of the guillotine, and that beneath the blade she would raise her first cry upon entering the circle of eternal recurrence. However—
"Then... I shall remain here forever, shall I not."
She deviated. Deviated from that framework, from that order.
Click to expand...
Marie transcended the law of Eternal Recurrence and remained existing as a phenomenon of a spiritual body that originally could not exist. The form of her existence is an absolute anomaly.
"She transcends even the craving I emanated. A complete defeat… There is nothing to be done but to bend one's knees."
Click to expand...

(For context, the law of Eternal Recurrence here is the "known" mentioned above).

Judging from this, we can confidently say that the Singularity lies beyond the canvas/creation/painting/paper and and completely transcends it, being outside its very framework. Altough i wanted to save this for another thread, there's also another important point to cover, which is the fact that only Gods can access the Singularity:

In other words, the possession of Taiji. Only those who have obtained a ripple capable of completely shrouding the current world are authorized to act in this heaven.
Click to expand...
"If you were a complete stranger, your consciousness in this place would never be able to stage a scene like this. Let me make it clear from the outset: I am not capable of altering this space at will, nor of deceiving anyone with such a trick. Only those who possess the Atziluth degree can paint this vast sea of information with their own soul. You understand this logic, don't you?"
Click to expand...
This is the Singularity of the world: a hole torn open by my Atziluth and Reinhard’s, situated on the path that leads to the Throne of the universe. Therefore, in principle, only those who have reached Atziluth can enter this place, and only someone of that rank is capable of manipulating the color of this space.
Click to expand...

This is important because Gods are shown to view all of creation as merely fictional, with the lower plane of existence never being able to truly affect 'reality' due to it being 'fictional' in comparison:

"For me, all things are like this mandala. The landscape remains distant. It is beautiful, but it is completely disconnected from me."
Click to expand...
"That won't work. Don't underestimate the Taiji of Edo."
"———!"
And yet, he remained unharmed. Completely unharmed. Not even a scratch had appeared. It was exactly like when he had stopped Shiori's fist. More than mere resistance, it was like facing a being belonging to another plane of existence. It was like painting a devastating fire on a canvas: no matter how intense it looks, it could never set a real-world person ablaze. The feeling was one of absolute separation, as if, from the very beginning, they existed on completely different planes. If a painting can never harm reality, reality can destroy it without the slightest effort.
Click to expand...

And Gods themselves have been referred to as 'walking Singularities' multiple times:

"A walking Singularity. Without being erased, without being absorbed... Unable to connect with anyone, I will continue to wander eternally."
Click to expand...
"But well... Even so, I have nothing to complain about. Just like you, I will continue observing this world. Even while being apart from everything, of course."
Click to expand...
"You too are, by nature, a Singularity. In that case, contact of this level should be possible. There is no need to worry. I won't do it again."
Click to expand...

Thus, it's pretty obvious how the Singularity is completely transcendent and disconnected from the framework of creation, making it High 1-A. I hope this reply makes the argument clearer to everyone.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
I don't see the Singularity having enough Meta-Meta transcendence evidence. The fact that it's linked to the Thrones means it can't be transcendent over them. Your hole example shows this. The paper exist within the same system as the empty space. The empty space isn't a meta-physical layer of reality above it.
Click to expand...
Pretty much argument above explains hole you thought is just entrance to Singularity, created by high level gods.

This is just H1-A entities opening way to H1-A realm, doesn't really prove anti-feat nor reducibility to lower structure. Any thoughts rn after reading @Mugen-Kokutosho-Jigoku new argument?
 
ExcelsisBerny said:
All the translations were made by the wiki’s own translation team. Instead of merely raising doubts, I repeat, question the specific translations you think are wrong and that is it. It is not that difficult.
Click to expand...
Okay. That seems good then. 🙏
 
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