I mean, that's what I said at first. But the attack is literally the exact same stance, and not only that but it's shown right afterwards that he was copying Gun to do it. Kishin Seiken is a Gun Copy.Kishin sekin didn't even exist back then
Using this same logic you must think Samuel ~ Jinyoung or Charles Choi went full power against jichang
Also Jichang was far far stronger then Daniel
Kishin sekin is a 17 moves combo
No? That's some other attack
The 17-hit combo is a barrage of Yamazaki Kyokushin Straight Punches
Wait since the CRT is about kishin seikin having a multiplier just to clarify are we saying each of the straight punches in the 17 combo are a 3x? Or that the total 17 combo adds up to 3x? (Genuine question)
17 Combo since even CQC multiplier is used that way
(Note: I am aware other arguments have been provided for the multiplier I just wanted to try and clarify why @Pyro9278 thinks that the statement that Gun ≠ UI P Daniel in terms of skill and techiques is outdated)
I try my best QwQ
So basically, so far everyone agrees that OVT and Death Kick should have multipliers.
I think you're confusing combat ability with physical strength. When I refer to combat ability, I'm talking purely about fighting skill and technique because that's the only logical interpretation when comparing two characters with different physical attributes. If combat ability included raw strength, then comparing Gun and UI Daniel's combat ability wouldn't make much sense since Daniel's Perfect Body gives him superior physical stats by default.(Note: I am aware other arguments have been provided for the multiplier I just wanted to try and clarify why @Pyro9278 thinks that the statement that Gun ≠ UI P Daniel in terms of skill and techiques is outdated)
I'll try to go in order, even as far back as UI Daniel's first apperance in hostel he and Gun's skills were contrasted in favour of UI Daniel via Jerry
That's when the story showed us that Jerry gave gun a scar the narrator even calling it 'unforgettable'
'The person who gave Gun an unforgettable scar was currently getting thrashed' as we see that Jerry can't even land a hit on UI Daniel
Jerry also analyzes UI Daniel and then comments 'wait since when do I analyze my opponent?!' Implyinh he did not feel the need to do the same thing against Gun, Jerry also comnents on all of UI Daniel's techiques being perfect which he never does so against Gun
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Then at the end of hostel when we got Gun vs UI P Daniel round 1
We get the following statements from Gun himself
'Using the word 'talent' is an understatement when you look down on your opponents'
+
'I am afraid. I am insanely afraid'
Granted the aftermath and panels during his speech makes it seem like Gun and UI Daniel fought pretty evenly but Gun is the only one that ended up with a broken arm which is even more insane knowing black bones is a thing in hindsight (not to mention we later learn that UI Daniel adjusts his power so Gun being able to land hits makes sense as he is an endurance based fighter with a condtioned body and high pain tolerance sadomasochist which means UI Daniel's fighting style of creating distance via punishment isn't as effective)
Gun's own words make it seem like Daniel's skill/technique/talent are better than his own since he directly comments that UI Daniel looks down on others (he has never seen UI Daniel before and it was his first time fighting him so I believe he is reffering to himself here especially since he also comments not once but twice that he is terrified, which would be weird if he was just as skilled as Daniel is)
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Then in 3A we see Jake explain that the reason they ganged up on UI Daniel in a 2v1 is because UI Daniel's presence triggered their fight or flight survival instinctsMy Gallery — Postimages
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'All that was left was the instinct to 'kill or be killed'' at that point both Jake and Samuel had fought Gun 1 on 1, and Jake even made Gun's lip bleed causing Gun to compliment him
Neither Jake or Samuel could even land a hit on UI P Daniel and Jake narrates that all that was left was fear, we also see that Jerry who has also fought Gun atp and gave him an 'unforgettable' scar also commented that he was afraid as well which we have never seen him react in a similar way against Gun
Neither Jake or Samuel have ever shown such a reaction towards Gun either before or after this fight even in HFG when Gun started fighting seriously
Jake during 3A was under the impression he had surpassed Gun (we now know it was 15 year old Gun lol) yet he still felt absolutely terrifed by UI Daniel
We also see during the summit that pretty much EVERYONE that fought UI Daniel had PSTD from their encounter with Daniel
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We also have Johan and Imperfect Daniel's copy of Perfect Daniel
Both Johan and Daniel have shown the capability to copy Gun with no drawbacks yet Johan can ONLY copy UI Daniel for 10 seconds and by pushing his body past its limit, same with Imperfect Daniel who is even more indicative
In 1A when Daniel fought UI Daniel he commented that it was like fighting 'death' and that he was afraid, Daniel has never shown such a reaction when he fought Gun, Daniel never thought about comparing Gun to UI Daniel (but he has compared Jichang to Gun lol)
Not only that but in HFW UI Imperfect Daniel chose to copy UI Daniel when fighting Kitae and Changsu commented that Daniel was copying the strongest person he has seen
Daniel atp has seen Gun and has spent 1 month being trained by him where Gun showed him everything he knows, Daniel has also fought Gun, so imo the fact that UI Imperfect Daniel still chose to copy 1A Perfect Daniel over Gun despite the fact that copying the former would break his body while copying the latter wouldn't, if Gun was just as skilled as UI P Daniel then the copycats wouldn't be able to copy him with no drawbacks/recoil, or if he was just as skilled but copying him had no drawbacks they would do that instead of copying UI Daniel and breaking their bodies doing so
I am aware Gun holds back and lets himself get hit but even when he gets serious in HFG none of the cast outside of maybe Jerry show similar reactions to UI Daniel
Hell we even have the contrast between everyone being cocky that they know exactly how strong Gun is(granted they were wrong) vs everyone being terrified of UI Daniel
Even if they are biased because they don't know that Gun is holding back(mind you this shouldn't matter as UI Daniel is also holding back) it still shows that narratively all the characters hold UI Daniel in a higher regard compared to Gun (unless you count Incheon where Jake calls Gun the 'strongest man' though given that UI Daniel and Daniel get treated as seperate entities its entierly possible Jake just doesn't count him since his existence is basically conditional lol)
Anyhow to be clear this is NOT meant to be a bad faith debunk or anything of the sort, I just wanted to clairfy why Pyro and others disagree with the IG statement and why they propose that it was retconned, and that they are not arguing from sillence, because pretty much the entire marrative going forward after UI Daniel was introduced has portrayed UI Daniel's skill/techniques and experience as being > Gun, including by literally every single person that has ever fought Gun before and none of them ever tried comparing UI Daniel to Gun in any way shape or form, inverse they have never been directly compared, Gun has however been compared to weaker characters (not indicative of his power/skill but still) imo if everything else can be disregarded or explained away, the difference in them being copied (Johan and Daniel can casually copy Gun but need to break their body down to fight like UI Daniel for 10 seconds + UI Imperfect Daniel copying UI Perfect Daniel instead of Gun during HFW with Changsu commenting that Daniel is copying the strongest person he knows) can't be disregarded as that is the narratively pretty blatantly telling us that UI Daniel is a whole other beast compared to Gun
Also FYI, the statement that you posted as evidence of Kishin Seiken being Gun's strongest move does not call kishin seiken HIS strongest techique, he tells Daniel the strategy involves using his(Daniel's) strongest techique which is Kishin Seiken because Gun is stronger than all the kings (per his own words) all that tells us is that Kishin Seiken > kings but for all we know Gun might have more powerful techiques that he never felt the need to use
Also genuine question but even if we presume that kishin seiken IS his strongest techique and that Gun also knows CQC, given that Gun never uses CQC would he even count CQC when talking about his 'strongest techique'? Since its entierly possible he is talking about the techiques that he uses as a part of his arsenal and is not considering CQC as he only uses kyoshin karate, akido, yamazaki style kyoshin karate, normal karate, and his tonfa fighting style (occasionally)
Anyhow sorry for the long reply, but I wanted to be through, I really like talking to Pyro so I wanted to clairfy to you why he had that stance, sorry if its annoying QwQ
Please no mean to powerscaling cat
Aight bet
Basically what's happening here there's a technique known as CQC, which is already accepted as a 3x AP boost and the main premise of the first part of the OP is that there's a charecter knows as Daniel part and the author of this thread and me have proven that Daniel knows CQC and can use that technique, which means he can theoretically attain a 3x multiplier if he uses that technique. Now that is NOT his strongest technique as it's stated to be a technique knows as Kishin Seiken, thus Kishin Seiken should be at least a 3x multiplier.
I am currently busy so I'll hopefully be able to reply later today, just writing this to let you know that I have seen and read it
Daniel has seen CQC 2 separate times and 1 of those times he saw the full fight
Multiple? Literally 2 tries and in the first try MK himself said that he 'almost' copied it perfectly and that's just because he was half blind and MK has the most perfected CQC maybe after Woocheol Nam and has the highest number of stances, meanwhile Johan would've copied Warran's CQC easily. INFACT even Haru copied CQC just by seeing it once when Johan said 'ill only show you once' and it was copied also by seeing only once like how windyattack pointed it out.
Here's a quick summary. The disagreemen of the 3x multiplier for Kishin Seiken because it rests entirely on an unproven chain: Gun's combat ability being "on par" with UI Daniel is a general skill-tier comparison, not evidence he shares UI Daniel's specific technique inventory, and the "knows/mastered all martial arts" lines are vague narrative statements with no on-screen demonstration as Gun has never shown, used, or taught CQC, nor has any of his disciples used it. Even granting he "knows" CQC, the source material distinguishes baseline CQC ("the most basic military martial art") from the upgraded, hundredfold-scaled version tied to having the 3x boost. I have kind of been mostly skimming through the rest of the arguments after page 2 started, but this is what I believe is the sum of the counter-argument.
This is such a bad faith representation of reasoning behind 3x multiplier
Dude, they asked for a summary so I provided the summary of the opposing side. Nothing has been debunked yet so chill. Just let the staff look through it all and decide.
At least provide the full argument About Kishin Sekins 3x multiplier man
So my issue with this is that in HFBD when Johan is explaining to Jake that he can copy P Daniel for 10 seconds, he explains to Jake that P Daniel's TECHIQUES are tied to his perfect body
Btw cat could you DM/private message me where it was decided the distinction between base CQC and special CQC(3x mult) because I've read the original CQC CRT and I can't find where it was decided and its kind of relevant for a CRT I am planning to make so the more info the better
So before I begin my explanation I first wanted to apologize for being very condescending/aggresive a few days ago as I hadn't taken my meds and was running on 0 hours of sleep due to a heat wave during the night where I live so I was really out of it and ended up being overly aggresive, mean and condescending and also couldn't properly articulate myself
As expected from the Bad Faith Merchant, he returns with another flawed argument.So my issue with this is that in HFBD when Johan is explaining to Jake that he can copy P Daniel for 10 seconds, he explains to Jake that P Daniel's TECHIQUES are tied to his perfect body
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Direct quote from Johan:
"I've seen some of his moves and I can copy him to some extent but I can't perfectly replicate his fighting style. He uses techiques that can ONLY be completed by his perfect physique if I were to attempt his moves in my body I would be in incredible pain."
Also as for combat strenght we know UI P Daniel adjusts his stats to match his opponent, meaning that raw stats here should be irrelevant as he is always matching his opponent's strenght, meaning that if P UI Daniel beats you it's because he SKILL checked you rather than stat checked you
My issue with your premise of saying they have the same combat skill is that having a PERFECT body is a pre requisite and a requirement to be able to use P UI Daniel's techiques, Gun does not have a perfect body therefore by definition he CAN'T have the same techiques as P UI Daniel, my previous reply was specifically to outline that the IG comparison of their combat ability was outdated/retconned as the narrative itself never directly compares their combat ability as far as I can remember, and all the information we have points to P UI Daniel having both greater stats AND greater combat abbility
Also uh slightly awkward thing I haven't had the chance to mention but probably should, I've actually spend the last few weeks (since June) working on a CRT to remove the CQC multiplier as I realised that it breaks Queatism and it results in multipliers in the millions, I was just waiting for one of the 3 CRT slots to free up but then you made your CRT
I swear this is not intentional I can show you my posts from several weeks ago stating that I want to make a CRT, this is just really bad timing
Pyro actually sent me the link to this CRT in private messages since its directly tied to my CRT and suggested I have a look at it
I am not sure what the rules are in a situation like this so I am not sure if I am even allowed to be commenting on this CRT (should be fine I think?) if not I'll apologize and shut up lol
Two metas has been used btw and one is currently being used while the other is just there for the consistency, which is the Gun one.
Your argument actually supports my position more than it refutes it.So before I begin my explanation I first wanted to apologize for being very condescending/aggresive a few days ago as I hadn't taken my meds and was running on 0 hours of sleep due to a heat wave during the night where I live so I was really out of it and ended up being overly aggresive, mean and condescending and also couldn't properly articulate myself
Ok with that out of the way, now on to my actual reply
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Now you are correct that MK stated that Johan nearly succeeded on his first attempt, you are not including his full quote/context (to be clear I am not accusing you of being disenganeous or bad faith, I am just stating that the full quote adds additonal context)
"He surpised me a little but of course he ultimately failed. You CAN'T just copy CQC by watching someone else do it. The only reason Warren can use CQC is because I corrected his form with my unit's techiques, I aknoledge your genius but you can ONLY use CQC if you know ALL the stances."
The reason the full quote is important is because the partial quote implies that Johan would have been able to brute force copy CQC by attempting it 1 or 2 more times, while the full quote clarifies that unless Johan knew the stances all of his other attempts would have failed as well
This ties back into you saying it only took Johan 2 attempts, which technically yes? But again there is missing context here
Immediately after MK says as he starts exchanging blows with Johan he realizes that Johan has now switched to trying to copy CQC by copying his Individual stances instead of trying to copy the full thing all at once, which is why he was able to succeed on his 2nd attempt
When Johan uses it against Yuseong we see in his inner monologue he says
"Remember it. Recall it. Become your own master. Become your own student."
As we see panels of MK's various stances
Johan copied all of the components of CQC (the stances) and THEN copied the full CQC
As for Haru while Johan did say he was going to just show them the techique that doesn't actually tell us what he showed Haru, I think its both entirely possible and reasonable that Johan first showed Haru the individual stances/techiques and THEN showed them the full CQC, this wouldn't contradict anything Johan said as far I am aware
The reason I brought all of this up is to explain why imperfect Daniel does not have CQC in his arsenal despite having seen it twice, we are explicitly told that just seeing CQC is NOT enough you NEED to know all of the stances
I am aware Johan was half blind at the time however having his full sight wouldn't have somehow magically allowed him to see and copy the needed stances in order to perform CQC, same goes for Daniel
I think it was windy that brought up the fact that Daniel technically knew Kishin Seiken back in HFBD but didn't use it, therefore the same is true for CQC
However my issue with that is that for kishin seiken we know Daniel didn't use it because its highly conditional (can only be used if your opponent lets their guard down) whether as CQC is a general use techique (Warren literally spams it all the freaking time lol) so for Daniel to literally NEVER use it if he supposedly knew it especially given how powerful it is just makes no sense
Imo with everything the story has presented I think its reasonable to conclude that Daniel doesn't use CQC because he CAN'T
If CQC could be copied like any other normal move then the author wouldn't have gone out of their way to include MK's 2 statement (1. CQC can't be copied unless you know all the stances and 2. (Paraphrased) "Oh crap he's copying all of my stances!!!") and Johan's internal monologue coupled with panels showcasing MK's various stances
Last time we talked I couldn't properly articulate myself for which I apologize, so to be more clear I am not saying CQC is impossible to copy but rather that it can't be copied normally (see move -> perform move) because CQC is a composite move made up of multiple techiques so you need to copy the individual techiques first before you cam use the composite techique
In the case of Johan he was literally fighting John CQC himself manager Kim so he could see and copy all of MK's stances as MK himself realised which is why MK concluded that he NEEDED to end the fight as soon as possible.
In the case of Haru, they were being taught by Johan who had already succeeded in copying CQC so it makes sense they would have an easier time doing it, as they are being taught by someone who already did all the hard work for them lmao
In the case of Daniel he has seen Warren's use CQC in bursts but he hasn't seen the individual stances
IMO if Daniel knew CQC the story would have absolutely highlighted it and I don't think there is a good explanation for why Daniel actively chooses NOT to use it if he supposedly has it. So I agree with @CatLover313 here, and I don't think they are making an argument from sillence or being disenganeous
Haru's CQC doens't get a multiplier fyi, I'll recommend u to check the CRT where the multiplier was accepted. The multiplier is only accepted for CQC with a unqie version, like Warren's, MK's, Taiki's, Jincheon, Woocheol etc. NOT Haru.Also uh slightly awkward thing I haven't had the chance to mention but probably should, I've actually spend the last few weeks (since June) working on a CRT to remove the CQC multiplier as I realised that it breaks Queatism and it results in multipliers in the millions, I was just waiting for one of the 3 CRT slots to free up but then you made your CRT
I swear this is not intentional I can show you my posts from several weeks ago stating that I want to make a CRT, this is just really bad timing
I actually asked cat lover about it because I've checked the CQC CRT thread twice now and there is no distinction between normal CQC and special CQC, in the CRT thread CQC as a whole is discussed to give a 3x mult with Warren vs Minsk being cited as an example and pretty much everyone I've talked to treats normal CQC as a 3x fold increase which is why I got confused when cat lover said only special CQC was accepted as a 3x mult
We never actually got the the stat increase for terabyte low kick as the effect only applied when it landed because its not an active stat buff, Jingen Ryu is an active stat buff and is usually written inside the user's stat box and you can see little blue up arrows indicating a staff buff. I was going to bring up all of what you said in my CRT + this neither the time or place to discuss it, I only brought it up so that cloudy is informed of it because othereise it would look like I made my CRT in response to his which isn't the case as I've been arguing agast CQC being a 3x mult as far back as June
Bruh so we are both planning to make a CRT on the same topic but for different reasons?
We did lol, it's an active stat buff and it happened when Yugyeom fought Jaeha's no 2 i think. I have panels and all for all of it saved so I'll make sure I'll show them in the crt.
Intresting...uk what...wtv.
IDK...maybe we wait.Bruh so we are both planning to make a CRT on the same topic but for different reasons?
How's that gonna work?
Dawg it has not even been a full day since you had a moderator outright tell you to chill out on the bad faith accusations
Johan's wording is that Daniel uses techiques that can ONLY be COMPLETED with a perfect physique and that even ATTEMPTING TO to perfom them WITHOUT a perfect physique would put him in extreme pain, he NEVER says ANYTHING about physical attributes or stats while talking to Jake, and physical attributes have never been mentioned when character talk about UI Daniel, only his physique being perfect, his experience being perfect and him having mastered all martial arts, it's always about techique or skill, or how his physique is supernaturally perfect.
Why are you wording it as a question? That's literally what happened bruh
Again Daniel DID win he broke Gun's arm and was on top of him. Their fight got interrupted because Daniel regained unconsciousness had the fight continued UI Daniel would have won as we saw in HFG even if YUI Gun came out it wouldn't have changed anything lol
I'll repeat again if the ONLY way to perfom said techiques is to have a perfect physique so your body can 'handle the strain' like you said and that even ATTEMPTING to perfom said techiques causes immense pain otherwise then by definition means they are exclusive to someone with a perfect body.
Again you NEVER proved or provided ANY evidence that Johan being unable to fully copy UI Daniel's fighting style due to lacking a perfect physique is due to lacking physical abbilities or that having a perfect physique just makes the techiques more effective
Again you are yet to prove that Johan was reffering to physical execution/effectiveness when he explained to Jake why he can't copy UI Daniel under normal circumstances
Again more baseless bad faith accusations
P3 is entierly based on unsubstantiated assumptions/assertions that you are yet to actually proveYour argument actually supports my position more than it refutes it.
P1: Manager Kim states that CQC cannot be copied unless someone knows all of the combat units/stances that make up CQC.
P2: CQC is simply the combination of those combat units/stances used together. Therefore, if someone has already seen all of the required stances, they satisfy Manager Kim's stated requirement.
P3: Daniel witnessed Warren use his combat units during the Minsik fight, and he has also seen Warren use CQC multiple times. Warren's CQC is merely a lesser version of Manager Kim's CQC, meaning the required combat units are fewer or at least no more complex than Manager Kim's.
P4 is also wrong. Johan's actions fall in line with and support MK's statement, Johan failed to copy CQC by simply observing MK perform it, he had to copy it in smaller chunks by copying MK's individual stances while fighting him in order to fully copy CQC which satisfies your P2 propstion, Johan copied the individual stances which MK outlined as the requirement and then copied CQC as a result, MK did in fact understand the extent of Johan's copy ability. MK was surpised because he did not consider the possibility of Johan copying the individual stances one at a time and THEN copying CQC
Ok? At best that would just effect the speed and quality of his abbility to copy, but it doesn't prove that he would somehow have a higher chance of brute force copying MK's composite CQC instead of copying the individual stances
I already outlined in this post and my previous post why this is both a flawed and an unsubstantiated conclusion that relies on unsubstantiated baseless assertions that you are yet to prove
Warren's normal martial art is jeet kune do, when he uses his composite CQC that's him using the military martial arts, it isn't until 1A that Warren fused both together and got his own signature CQC (all stated by MK)
I already outlined that Daniel not using kishin seiken makes sense as the move is highly conditional and can only be used if certain criteria are met, Daniel simply never had the opportunity to use kishin seiken before
Lookism also never states that Daniel HAS copied Warren's combat units stances that's just another Russell's teapot you keep asserting as a fact while spamming 'argument from sillence' simply because there is no proof of the contratory
I LITERALLY showed u that itself and he has no burden after this assertion that makes his position unjustified.
Almost copies CQC perfectly in the first try after seeing it once and MK never showed him stance one by one, he was attacking by using composite CQC nly that took multiple attempts. That also was because Johan was half blind and MK had the most perfected CQC + UI Daniel copied CQC perfectly and better in the first try and Lil Daniel has copy on par with his big body as UI Daniel was never shown to have improved copy skills from his base.
Proof? And also, if i remember properly uhh... Daniel saw Warren's CQC another time too.
Prove that MK had knowledge about copy skills of that level or he has ever met someone with copy skills on par with Johan.
? How this applies to his argument. Also if there's no proof of absense or negation then that means there's no absense and negation iff there's evidence of presence...elite debate knowledge, lol.
If you're reffering to 2A I already explained that MK stated that seeing the burst composite techique and the individual stances is NOT the same thing
Wait huh wha since when does MK have UI???
Ik I am saying that he has never seen Warren use individual CQC stances, gimme a sec to find and upload the image
He has presumably been working with Johan at WTJC for at least a few weeks/months by now
Cloudy keeps using argument from sillence stating that there being no proof of Daniel having CQC does not mean that Daniel doesn't have CQC
You and Aksh about 3-4 comments above mine already summarized yall args and points so I didn't see why I'd reiterate the same thing instead of just summarizing the opposing side claim. The staff can just look through all 3 of our summarizations, especially since you two are before mine so he'd likely read yours first, really not a big deal....
Ladies and gentlemen, we finally have the power-scaling cat, for the third time, failing to understand why interpreting a statement correctly is a core part of analysis. I don't think you've ever heard of Grice's Razor, but let me explain it.Dawg it has not even been a full day since you had a moderator outright tell you to chill out on the bad faith accusations
Atp are you trying to rage bait me or something lmao
Johan's wording is that Daniel uses techiques that can ONLY be COMPLETED with a perfect physique and that even ATTEMPTING TO to perfom them WITHOUT a perfect physique would put him in extreme pain, he NEVER says ANYTHING about physical attributes or stats while talking to Jake, and physical attributes have never been mentioned when character talk about UI Daniel, only his physique being perfect, his experience being perfect and him having mastered all martial arts, it's always about techique or skill, or how his physique is supernaturally perfect.
Also a physique does NOT mean JUST physical capabilities(stats) but also the shape and size of their body, muscles, bones, frame, muscle elasticity, shoulder span etc. Johan's physical capabilities are not the only factor here and claiming otherwise is misunderstanding Johan's words which is what you are accusing me off.
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Also all of what you said literally supports my point bruh
If even ATTEMPTING to perfom UI Daniel's moves causes immense pain, which lead Johan to conclude that the only way to copy UI P Daniel is by literally firing up his muscles and nerves to mimick UI P Daniel's physique so he can he use his moves and even THEN he can ONLY fight like UI P Daniel FOR 10 SECONDS. Then that again by definition means that having a perfect body/physique is a prerequisite AND a requirement to performing the same moves and techiques as otherwise you won't be able to sustain fighting like that due to the immense pain from using said moves without the proper physique.
Which again brings me back to the fact that Johan and Daniel can copy gun and his techiques no problem with no strain to their body, yet both of them had to break their bodies down in order to temporarily fight like UI P Daniel
Trying to boil down the difference between Gun and UI Daniel as just a physical capabilities(stats) difference is completely ignoring UI Daniel's narratively
I really dislike this power scaler mentality of boiling down absolutely everything to stats and numbers at the expense of media literacy, to the point where UI Daniel's whole shtick is being boiled down to him just hitting harder
Why are you wording it as a question? That's literally what happened bruh
By the time Daniel regained consciousness he was on top of Gun and had broken Gun's arm
Not to mention that Gun is an endurance based tank AND a sadomasochistic battle maniac, Gun being able to fight Daniel till sunrise is a stamina and endurance feat not a skill feat, especially since the fight happened off screen and UI P Daniel fights every person diffrently
i also already outlined in a previous comment how Gun's fighting style and being an endurance tank and a sadomasochist + having UI helped him fare better against UI Daniel compared to most people, UI Daniel can't create distance between them via punishment (Google an explanation of how professional fighters measure distance and punish their opponents with jabs to keep them from getting too close) AND his endurance means Gun can last for quite a well, however based on the aftermath to conclude that it was an even match is again disenganeous given fhat from what little we do see Gun was getting ragdolled for most of the fight and was only able to land hits by taking hits in exchange (as I outlined above and in my prior post Gun's fighting style somewhat counters UI Daniel's fighting style)
Again Daniel DID win he broke Gun's arm and was on top of him. Their fight got interrupted because Daniel regained unconsciousness had the fight continued UI Daniel would have won as we saw in HFG even if YUI Gun came out it wouldn't have changed anything lol
I'll repeat again if the ONLY way to perfom said techiques is to have a perfect physique so your body can 'handle the strain' like you said and that even ATTEMPTING to perfom said techiques causes immense pain otherwise then by definition means they are exclusive to someone with a perfect body.
There is no proof that Johan can perfom these techiques normally, the only statement we have is that Johan even attempting to perfom them would cause him immense pain, and there is even LESS proof that Johan was reffering to physical capabilities.
How would the UI Daniel Johan fought in 3A even have GREATER physical capabilities than Johan in the first place given that we KNOW that UI Daniel adjusts his stats to match his opponent? Johan copying UI Daniel for his stats rather than his techiques would go against both narrative AND THE WHOLE POINT OF UI DANIEL'S CHARACTER
He is described as fighting like a machine that gives perfect responses ans counters to every move, to the point where literally the only way for Gun to beat him was to exploit that.
Again you NEVER proved or provided ANY evidence that Johan being unable to fully copy UI Daniel's fighting style due to lacking a perfect physique is due to lacking physical abbilities or that having a perfect physique just makes the techiques more effective
You've just been making baseless assetions that it has to do with their physical capabilities stats when Johan never even mentions physical capabilities or effectiveness in his comsversation with Jake, what he says instead is that the ONLY way to COMPLETE(as in perform) those techiques is by having a perfect physique and that even attempting to do so otherwise will cause immense pain
UI P Daniel's combat abbility is inherently tied to his techiques that are tied to his perfect physique
Also AGAIN Gun and Daniel's combat abbility has NEVER been directly compared by ANYONE in lookism INCLUDING LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE PERSON THAT HAS EVER FOUGHT GUN AND INCLUDING GUN HIMSELF
You would think that if Gun had the same combat abbility as UI Daniel he would comment on that but instead the only comments we get is Gun stating TWICE that he is SCARED, and given that we KNOW UI Daniel adjusts his stats (which comes from Gun himself btw) the only logical conclusion we can reach is that Gun felt scared because of UI Daniel's absurd skill level and techique
Again you are yet to prove that Johan was reffering to physical execution/effectiveness when he explained to Jake why he can't copy UI Daniel under normal circumstances
Again more baseless bad faith accusations
If I am open to debate I am bad faith if I am not open to debate I am stubborn this is literally a catch 22
Also I don't think you actually know what bad faith means bru
Bad faith ≠ disagreeing with you
Bad faith means I am arguing disenganeously or trying to push an agenda if I overlooked or misinterpreted anything you said that would be due to me misunderstanding you not bad faith
