A Titan's Physiology and The Nature of Dark Fountains [DELTARUNE]

StrymULTRA · Saturday at 08:20

Nullflowerblush said:
I'd also like to bring point how, when Ralsei says "if the Titan... is anything like a Fountain", in the Japanese localization, he uses the word dōshitsu (同質), meaning "same nature" or "homogenous", which does basically outright confirm the Titans are essentially "living" Dark Fountains. A Titan is made out of darkness, and a Dark Fountain is a fountain of darkness. I think you think Fountains are a special concept operating under unique rules, but they are literally described as simply being a mass of darkness, from which Dark Worlds can be created, like water being sourced from a well. The only difference, fundamentally, between a Titan and a Dark Fountain is the power involved in its creation, with the darkness of a Fountain instead becoming a Titan rather than creating a Dark World once its power "becomes too strong".

Good catch, honestly.

WizardPowers101 · Saturday at 15:11

StrymULTRA said:
This entire wall of text is nothing but a nothingburger filled of genuine fluff, it really says things that are not really the point, and this can be disproven from huuuh... 3 very simple pieces of evidence:

The Titan straight up generating from the Fountain as if it's an egg, with its arm straight up popping out of it.

The Titan's "eye" and wings being on the fountain-pillar thing.

Ralsei saying that both a Titan and a Fountain could be sealed the same way due to them being supposedly the same thing, with him being then proven right when Kris sealed a Titan in the same way they do so with a Dark Fountain.

I do not really think you're disproving these 3 at all besides... just spamming random things to make your point seem stronger? You claim that "titans forming from the fountains doesn't mean they are them", but you're not accounting for one single thing: where was the second fountain in all of this if it was the case? Especially when the Fountain from where the Titan supposedly formed from disappeared after that the latter was sealed away. Your evidence doesn't disprove any other interpretation on why the Titan is a Fountain, everything in that portion of the Chapter 4 screams at it being the case, you're just using semantics to make it seem differently without saying why it has to be the case.

1. That...isn't the fountain. The fountain that was generated was already what we see, which is that river-like pillar. That stone-like structure is basically a part of the whole transformation getting the Titan summoned.
2. The titan's face/eye being on the fountain doesn't really go against what I said from before, which is that it's simply being formed from the fountain's darkness.
3. Again, how does this at all prove anything? Ralsei makes this exact point BECAUSE of what the Titan is. Both fountains AND titans are, in essence, cylinders of darkness that if the SOUL is inserted into, can evaporate the entire thing. This is like saying we were in the PROCESS of sealing the Titan when we were shaving off its fingers in the fight. This doesn't SHOW us anything besides the fact that...light is getting rid of darkness. This isn't at ALL addressing anything.

You don't need to sound pretentious just because you think this is just a flurry of random words on a wall.
Anyways, the "Second Fountain" you're asking is what the Titan is made up of. Again, they come from the special darkness. We literally see this in Chapter 2. Like I told Scout, if your argument is saying "being made up of something = you scale to it", then that once again illogical, there's no necessity linking those two concepts.

StrymULTRA said:
do not think this is too relevant, especially when this can be excused as a case of Subjective Reality/Reality Warping [really wish these 2 were the same ability smfh], as the Dark Worlds are nothing but an alternate view of reality of that particular room/building by substracting enough light until seeing its true dark side. If we wanna make it funnier, Kris and Susie when entering in a Dark World do not change size or all, just their clothes.

I do agree that it is a form of reality warping, that is fine. However, that ain't exactly the issue the at hand. The issue is that we see SPECIFICALLY of WHY dark worlds are they way they are, they aren't necessarily the same. You can't use dragon ball in this case because DRAGON BALL does not use the room's HISTORY/SETTING to define what it looks like on the inside. This is especially true for Chapters 3 and 5. We see that the characters and the world are literally defined by what has transpired overtime and what the room is about. A lot of late-night TV binging and family fights? You get Tenna and him talking about family feuds. Asgore essentially raising his flowers like they were his own? You get Flowery and every other flower acting like they're his family.. Why should that just be brushed off as "oh, they're pretty random because of the reality warping". How does that at all change what the dark world looks like? Susie literally does the same thing but doesn't do it exactly like the Knight, because the lighting of the mind has changed. However this doesn't really change the size of the dark world and its contents. It still has the windows, the book shelves, just a different side.

WizardPowers101 · Saturday at 15:19

Nullflowerblush said:
I'd also like to bring point how, when Ralsei says "if the Titan... is anything like a Fountain", in the Japanese localization, he uses the word dōshitsu (同質), meaning "same nature" or "homogenous", which does basically outright confirm the Titans are essentially "living" Dark Fountains. A Titan is made out of darkness, and a Dark Fountain is a fountain of darkness. I think you think Fountains are a special concept operating under unique rules, but they are literally described as simply being a mass of darkness, from which Dark Worlds can be created, like water being sourced from a well. The only difference, fundamentally, between a Titan and a Dark Fountain is the power involved in its creation, with the darkness of a Fountain instead becoming a Titan rather than creating a Dark World once its power "becomes too strong".

How does this at all matter...? Not only is the Japanese version irrelevant (mainly because it literally just says the same thing as the English version, just slightly different wording honestly), but it being homogenous just means it's alike in a way, not that they're EXACTLY the same. That's what homogenous means; sharing a nature. But Ralsei SPECIFICALLY says how The Titan is anything like a Fountain because both constructs being able to be treated like such: Putting the SOUL inside and then blasting out light from the inside-out, which is how you seal fountains in the first place.

My point is that because the fountains become too strong, this makes it so that a Titan can be summoned, Ralsei LITERALLY says this word for word on how to summon a Titan, which the knight literally does. However, are we going to say that just because it came from a fountain just like "water comes from the well", the water = the well?

Edutyn · Saturday at 15:26

Disagree for Styrm's reason.

StrymULTRA · Saturday at 15:48

WizardPowers101 said:
1. That...isn't the fountain. The fountain that was generated was already what we see, which is that river-like pillar. That stone-like structure is basically a part of the whole transformation getting the Titan summoned.

"Don't make another fountain". Ralsei said it, not me.

WizardPowers101 said:
2. The titan's face/eye being on the fountain doesn't really go against what I said from before, which is that it's simply being formed from the fountain's darkness.

Ok, but where is the second fountain being a fully independent object from the Titan in all of this? You did not display any of that evidence once because a huge "I say so".

WizardPowers101 said:
3. Again, how does this at all prove anything? Ralsei makes this exact point BECAUSE of what the Titan is. Both fountains AND titans are, in essence, cylinders of darkness that if the SOUL is inserted into, can evaporate the entire thing. This is like saying we were in the PROCESS of sealing the Titan when we were shaving off its fingers in the fight. This doesn't SHOW us anything besides the fact that...light is getting rid of darkness. This isn't at ALL addressing anything.

You not liking it does not make stuff false, you know. Plus Kris is specifically using the act of sealing on the Titan, we do never get any indicator in the game that UNLEASH or BRIGHTEN are analogous to the sealing process besides "yeah they make a lot of light" when there's not even a single statement of so unlike the Titan/Fountain point.

WizardPowers101 said:
You don't need to sound pretentious just because you think this is just a flurry of random words on a wall.

Almost all of your OP is saying a lot of stuff that ultimately is not related to the main point, sorry.

WizardPowers101 said:
Anyways, the "Second Fountain" you're asking is what the Titan is made up of. Again, they come from the special darkness. We literally see this in Chapter 2. Like I told Scout, if your argument is saying "being made up of something = you scale to it", then that once again illogical, there's no necessity linking those two concepts.

This is not answering my question. The video you're showing is not even displaying the Titans and the Fountains they're generated from as separate beings, so that clip is useless for your claim.

WizardPowers101 said:
The issue is that we see SPECIFICALLY of WHY dark worlds are they way they are, they aren't necessarily the same. You can't use dragon ball in this case because DRAGON BALL does not use the room's HISTORY/SETTING to define what it looks like on the inside. This is especially true for Chapters 3 and 5. We see that the characters and the world are literally defined by what has transpired overtime and what the room is about. A lot of late-night TV binging and family fights? You get Tenna and him talking about family feuds. Asgore essentially raising his flowers like they were his own? You get Flowery and every other flower acting like they're his family.. Why should that just be brushed off as "oh, they're pretty random because of the reality warping". How does that at all change what the dark world looks like? Susie literally does the same thing but doesn't do it exactly like the Knight, because the lighting of the mind has changed. However this doesn't really change the size of the dark world and its contents. It still has the windows, the book shelves, just a different side.

I can indeed use Dragon Ball because it's a famous example of a place that spatially small on the outside, but enormous in the inside. Nothing in your essay really debunks the idea of this being the case in Deltarune, you're just spamming things about the Dark World being themed on the room it's based on, which is correct, but doesn't defeat my main point at all.

WizardPowers101 said:
My point is that because the fountains become too strong, this makes it so that a Titan can be summoned, Ralsei LITERALLY says this word for word on how to summon a Titan, which the knight literally does. However, are we going to say that just because it came from a fountain just like "water comes from the well", the water = the well?

This is not a "Water and Well" thing, but more akin to "Sand and Glass" situation not gonna lie.

ZephyrArts · Saturday at 15:56

Disagree for obvious reasons

WizardPowers101 · Saturday at 17:29

StrymULTRA said:
"Don't make another fountain". Ralsei said it, not me.

I’m talking about the colorful-water like background which we ALWAYS SEE as the fountain in EVERY CHAPTER, not the stone-like structure forming around said fountain which is what YOU referenced. But whatever I suppose, we just making anything a fountain now.

StrymULTRA said:
Ok, but where is the second fountain being a fully independent object from the Titan in all of this? You did not display any of that evidence once because a huge "I say so".

I already explained this when talking with Scout and repeated the same stuff to you.

StrymULTRA said:
Kris is specifically using the act of sealing on the Titan, we do never get any indicator in the game that UNLEASH or BRIGHTEN are analogous to the sealing process besides "yeah they make a lot of light" when there's not even a single statement of so unlike the Titan/Fountain point.

Dude, that’s the whole point OF it. In each fountain we have sealed, it specifically says that the SOUL is glowing, which is what we see the soul often does all the time. It only seals the fountain because it targets that spot DIRECTLY to get rid of the dark world which the fountain is constantly producing. This is just common sense. But if you think I’m just making it up, then we can move on. It’ll get us nowhere.

StrymULTRA said:
The video you're showing is not even displaying the Titans and the Fountains they're generated from as separate beings, so that clip is useless for your claim.

My claim isn’t necessarily that they have to exist in the same room. I said in my argument that they form from darkness. They literally take the darkness and get curated because of it if that makes any sense to you, right? That’s what the Titan Spawn do and the Titan is no different. All of the darkness from the geyser gets molded and curates the Titan, which is why I’m not denying that the Titan comes from the Fountain.

StrymULTRA said:
I can indeed use Dragon Ball because it's a famous example of a place that spatially small on the outside, but enormous in the inside. Nothing in your essay really debunks the idea of this being the case in Deltarune, you're just spamming things about the Dark World being themed on the room it's based on, which is correct, but doesn't defeat my main point at all.

Then what’s the issue exactly? Like I said before, Cyber City is that big BECAUSE of the internet’s endless amount of content, world wide web, etc etc etc. It’s not that large “just because”. Again, why are we just simply brushing this under the rug and assuming the reality warping is just random and does whatever it wants when there’s clear LOGIC behind it.

Rodriiogo · Saturday at 17:35

Giving my 2 cents here.

I'm not gonna quote anything from the OP but I do wanna answer/bring up something here.

StrymULTRA said:
Titans being fountains is not the sole reason why they're 7-B. Te reason why they're 7-B is also due to them sustaining and keeping these fountains in existence by existing, while also shaping them. Them being the Dark Worlds is not the main evidence, the main evidence is them being the Dark Fountains that give forms to these fountains and make them instantly disappear the moment they're sealed.

StrymULTRA said:
I dunno if this works, BUT I think I did find some evidence.

If the Titan is weakened enough, it will be forced to basically spam defense and not attack anymore until it's fully recovered. The act of Unleash exposes the Titan to light, causing is shield to disappear, but it can still attack, but when it stonewalls, not only Unleash cannot be used, but it does not attack anymore until it's fully recovered.

I think this can help with the idea of "attacks > existing" scaling, as you indeed do still exist while being forced to regenerate and heal, but are still too weak to properly attack during said state. Ralsei even says that "as long as the insides are intact, the battle will still be going" to say that Titan's regeneration pretty much replents its stamina too, can't really do that if the regeneration does not restore that too.

This does not meet the Standard Stabilization feats.
I don't know how this got accepted at all.

Requirement 2: Prove that the stabilized structure is being directly sustained by the power of the character and not from the character's abilities, life force, existence, magical properties, or any unknown connection that is independent of their statistics.

This is not proved and you yourself agree to this:

StrymULTRA said:
Titans being fountains is not the sole reason why they're 7-B. Te reason why they're 7-B is also due to them sustaining and keeping these fountains in existence by existing

Their existence is what keeps the fountain by your claim, that's fine and all but it doesn't mean anything to the scale then. Your other claim does not prove this at all, him regenerating his outer shell as you yourself said does not mean that his attacks scale to his existence sustaining the fountain, he wasn't attacking... because he was regenerating, it is that simple, it doesn't mean, and there is no evidence here to claim that attacks > existence. you can't even quantify their existence as you can't even describe what the sustaining actually is, if he is actively keeping it in place every second or if it simply is a dependent existence where "without this it wont exist, but with this it will", it is never fully explained and just assumed to, your evidence for it being city is through it disappearing when he does, which isn't enough evidence, and creation which is a whole other pack of worms, and, as I said, it doesn't even matter in this case because it doesn't meet requirement 2 regardless.

Requirement 4: Prove that the power of the character's stabilization consistently scales to their regular statistics, similar to our standards for creation feats.

This is also not at all the case, even using the currently accepted ~~inflated and wrong~~ calculations, the best feat is:

GIGA Queen's Final Attack - 2.02 Kilotons of TNT - Small Town level

The Titan is currently scaling to 6.3 megatons of TNT, that is not consistency, that's a ~3119x DIFFERENCE.
Note that people have already called out that this calculation is wrong and are planning to downgrade it, using the next best (still inflated and wrong) feat of:

Tenna claps his hands at Massively Hypersonic speed - 513.24 Tons of TNT - Multi-City Block level

Would make the difference even worse to a ~12275x DIFFERENCE.

The fact we're using this frankly dubious and extremely contentious "feat" as the entire verse's scaling when this requirement for stabilization feats exists shows some crazy level of bias if I'm allowed to say.

---

Wanna be clear if it wasn't obvious, I fully disagree with the titans scaling to the 7-B.

StrymULTRA · Saturday at 17:54

WizardPowers101 said:
I’m talking about the colorful-water like background which we ALWAYS SEE as the fountain in EVERY CHAPTER, not the stone-like structure forming around said fountain which is what YOU referenced. But whatever I suppose, we just making anything a fountain now.

Argue that with the statements, not me lmao.

WizardPowers101 said:
Dude, that’s the whole point OF it. In each fountain we have sealed, it specifically says that the SOUL is glowing, which is what we see the soul often does all the time. It only seals the fountain because it targets that spot DIRECTLY to get rid of the dark world which the fountain is constantly producing. This is just common sense. But if you think I’m just making it up, then we can move on. It’ll get us nowhere.

My entire argument is that you cannot claim that UNLEASH/BRIGHTEN and sealing are the same thing just because "lol soul light", the effects in the fight are not even the same.

WizardPowers101 said:
My claim isn’t necessarily that they have to exist in the same room. I said in my argument that they form from darkness. They literally take the darkness and get curated because of it if that makes any sense to you, right? That’s what the Titan Spawn do and the Titan is no different. All of the darkness from the geyser gets molded and curates the Titan, which is why I’m not denying that the Titan comes from the Fountain.

You still did not even answer my question on where is the Fountain if it's not the Titan. Keeping to duck what I ask is not nice ya know.

WizardPowers101 said:
Then what’s the issue exactly? Like I said before, Cyber City is that big BECAUSE of the internet’s endless amount of content, world wide web, etc etc etc. It’s not that large “just because”. Again, why are we just simply brushing this under the rug and assuming the reality warping is just random and does whatever it wants when there’s clear LOGIC behind it.

Because your argument does not defeat the point, again.

Rodriiogo said:
Their existence is what keeps the fountain by your claim, that's fine and all but it doesn't mean anything to the scale then. Your other claim does not prove this at all, him regenerating his outer shell as you yourself said does not mean that his attacks scale to his existence sustaining the fountain, he wasn't attacking... because he was regenerating, it is that simple, it doesn't mean, and there is no evidence here to claim that attacks > existence. you can't even quantify their existence as you can't even describe what the sustaining actually is, if he is actively keeping it in place every second or if it simply is a dependent existence where "without this it wont exist, but with this it will", it is never fully explained and just assumed to, your evidence for it being city is through the creation and it disappearing when he does which is a whole other pack of worms and, as I said, doesn't matter in this case because it doesn't meet requirement 2.

It's actually the case lol. Try to think it simply with no assumptions. It not attacking because of it regenerating actually implies some stamina consumption that cannot be done when your health is at critical level, meaning that yes, attacks > existence. Yours is really a big "it's not because I say so" lol.

Plus the thing of "nothing says the fountain is sustaining the Dark World" is stupid, in the Stabilization page you've quoted it's said that one of the requirements to ensure that the place is being stabilized is right it instantly disappearing if the character disappears, as it implies a constant process.

Rodriiogo said:
This is also not at all the case, even using the currently accepted ~~inflated and wrong~~ calculations, the best feat is:

GIGA Queen's Final Attack - 2.02 Kilotons of TNT - Small Town level

The Titan is currently scaling to 6.3 megatons of TNT, that is not consistency, that's a ~3119x DIFFERENCE.
Note that people have already called out that this calculation is wrong and are planning to downgrade it, using the next best (still inflated and wrong) feat of:

Tenna claps his hands at Massively Hypersonic speed - 513.24 Tons of TNT - Multi-City Block level

Would make the difference even worse to a ~12275x DIFFERENCE.

The fact we're using this frankly dubious and extremely contentious "feat" as the entire verse's scaling when this requirement for stabilization feats exists shows some crazy level of bias if I'm allowed to say.

Since when a 7-B upscale is treated as an outlier from a Low 7-C character? We have never done this, I believe it's pretty blatant that the greater the tier, the greater the gap between it and the previous one, so we should think of this logically. A High 5-A feat performed from a verse's top tier cannot be treated as an outlier in a verse where weaker characters are instead 5-B, despite the gap being the same as you've mentioned. We do have verses jumping from Tier 6 to Tier 1 just because, do we treat these as outliers just because of the gap being uncountable infinite here? I do not believe so.

The Titan is currently treated as far stronger than GIGA Queen anyway, as narratively whether the gap is x2 or x100000 the narrative gap is the same, due to calcs not being canon. There is simply no reason to treat it as an outlier, the Titan is stronger than anything that was shown before.

What's with these anime/novel scalers always expecting some absolute precision in terms of feats upscale from the pixel scaling? This is a videogame, and one with limited graphics at that, we do need to give some leeway in order to make stuff fair.

WizardPowers101 · Saturday at 18:07

StrymULTRA said:
You still did not even answer my question on where is the Fountain if it's not the Titan. Keeping to duck what I ask is not nice ya know.

I did answer your question. The fountain’s darkness curates the Titan. I said this 500 times already, even in the OG post which you presumably ignored.

The fountain is QUITE LITERALLY a geyser of darkness. All that darkness spewing out gets used to summon the Titan. What exactly is the issue here

StrymULTRA said:
Because your argument does not defeat the point, again.

If the whole point of Dark World’s look and size is based on the room itself and its contents, making said world, how would that NOT reflect its size and therefore be a cause of it?

Rodriiogo · Saturday at 18:10

StrymULTRA said:
It's actually the case lol. Try to think it simply with no assumptions. It not attacking because of it regenerating actually implies some stamina consumption that cannot be done when your health is at critical level, meaning that yes, attacks > existence. Yours is really a big "it's not because I say so" lol.

Huh? No it literally does not. Does it mean that when Kris, Susie, Ralsei heal themselves mid-fight instead of attacking = they are at low stamina? This is a huge leap in logic, the Titan simply chose to prioritize defense and healing because his outershell was damaged so he didn't attack, you're the one making an assumptions that means "oh it means his attacks take more stamina than his existence"

StrymULTRA said:
Plus the thing of "nothing says the fountain is sustaining the Dark World" is stupid, in the Stabilization page you've quoted it's said that one of the requirements to ensure that the place is being stabilized is right it instantly disappearing if the character disappears, as it implies a constant process.

The rules in the page assumes the verse already established that it is a stabilization feat and explained well, which is why the examples section says:

Stabilization feats can vary significantly across fiction, depending on how the character's stabilization is treated and depicted in their respective series. Due to that, there are possible circumstances where stabilization is done independently from the given character's statistics.

It is indeed a valid criticism to bring up that the Titan is entirely vague and comes from assumptions when there's no consistency for said tier and nothing ever supports it.

StrymULTRA said:
Since when a 7-B upscale is treated as an outlier from a Low 7-C character? We have never done this, I believe it's pretty blatant that the greater the tier, the greater the gap between it and the previous one, so we should think of this logically. A High 5-A feat performed from a verse's top tier cannot be treated as an outlier in a verse where weaker characters are instead 5-B, despite the gap being the same as you've mentioned. We do have verses jumping from Tier 6 to Tier 1 just because, do we treat these as outliers just because of the gap being uncountable infinite here? I do not believe so.

A gap of 3119x to 12275x between the highest feat performed in the entire verse and a passive stabilization feat that has barely any context and relies on assumptions is the textbook definition of an outlier for the page's rules.

Outliers are interpreted case by base, so your example is just completely useless here, of course if in a 5-B verse someone randomly steps in and makes a blatant feat like nuking a star with raw power then the upscale is obvious even if it is a way higher value, however for stabilization feats, the page explicitly demands that the stabilization "consistently scales to their regular statistics", it is very much different, straight up making a false equivalence here isn't gonna help your point.

StrymULTRA said:
The Titan is currently treated as far stronger than GIGA Queen anyway, as narratively whether the gap is x2 or x100000 the narrative gap is the same, due to calcs not being canon. There is simply no reason to treat it as an outlier, the Titan is stronger than anything that was shown before.

You are genuinely not seeing that it is a LITERAL RULE in the stabilization page? This is not the same as if the titan actually blew up a city and someone went "oh its an outlier". This is, the type of feat you are trying to use has a literal rule saying that said feat has to consistently scale to their regular statistics otherwise it is not valid. Stop conflating stuff.

StrymULTRA said:
What's with these anime/novel scalers always expecting some absolute precision in terms of feats upscale from the pixel scaling? This is a videogame, and one with limited graphics at that, we do need to give some leeway in order to make stuff fair.

It being a game is such a nothing-burger of a complain and does indeed not give it leeway, have you ever thought that if Toby or whatever creator wanted to show the characters as that strong they fully can even with the "limited graphics"?? What's next? "Oh this is a live action movie so CGI is very hard so we are allowed to inflate feats and need more leeway than animanga/novels"?

Edutyn · Saturday at 18:20

Don't wanna get draged into the debate but the highest feat is miss mizzle storm. Unless i forgot other calc

Rodriiogo · Saturday at 18:22

Edutyn said:
Don't wanna get draged into the debate but the highest feat is miss mizzle storm. Unless i forgot other calc

Not currently accepted to be used, even if a CGM accepted it (Idk how, genuinely asked people off-site and they all agreed its nonsense), it would need a CRT for it to be applied first so it is currently useless for the convo. I can also tell you that this feat won't work, it should not be L7-B or anywhere close.

If we were including arguments not currently accepted I'd talk about how literally every calculation above building is inflated and wrong or straight up doing smth that shouldn't be calc'd, but I will keep that for where it should be (a CGM thread)

StrymULTRA · Saturday at 18:45

Rodriiogo said:
Huh? No it literally does not. Does it mean that when Kris, Susie, Ralsei heal themselves mid-fight instead of attacking = they are at low stamina? This is a huge leap in logic, the Titan simply chose to prioritize defense and healing because his outershell was damaged so he didn't attack, you're the one making an assumptions that means "oh it means his attacks take more stamina than his existence"

I mean, it still implies some superiority, especially when yes, damage is hinted to be affect stamina in Deltarune.

Rodriiogo said:
The rules in the page assumes the verse already established that it is a stabilization feat and explained well, which is why the examples section says:

It does, and I've already explained above both here and in the Charmander's thread. You're just willgly ignoring my arguments at this point.

Rodriiogo said:
You are genuinely not seeing that it is a LITERAL RULE in the stabilization page? This is not the same as if the titan actually blew up a city and someone went "oh its an outlier". This is, the type of feat you are trying to use has a literal rule saying that said feat has to consistently scale to their regular statistics otherwise it is not valid. Stop conflating stuff.

Prove me it's not consistent lmao. A character with a single 7-B feat will definitely have it as valid by having it as superiority over a Low 7-C character, who on its own is that tier by one-shotting 8-A ones.

You're acting like these 3 are all on the same tier in-universe, but it's really not, at all.

Rodriiogo · Saturday at 19:18

StrymULTRA said:
I mean, it still implies some superiority

...no it does not. If I'm fighting someone and they are damaging my body, and I decide to focus on defense and healing, it doesn't mean I'm "too tired to attack", that my attacks > my existence, or anything of sorts, it means I don't wanna... lose?? I think it's something anyone would do, am I crazy for saying this? lol

StrymULTRA said:
especially when yes, damage is hinted to be affect stamina in Deltarune.

Damage doesn't affect stamina, it affects your endurance, just like in yk, real life. If your body is hurt/damaged you will struggle to move more, that's whats happening to Susie. She's hurt so she's struggling to move. This does not apply to the Titan because his existence is what does the sustaining, so his outer shell being damaged does not affect it, and the Titan was not shown to "struggle to attack" or anything like that. He was shown to focus on defending and healing which is a REGULAR RESPONSE to being damaged?

StrymULTRA said:
It does, and I've already explained above both here and in the Charmander's thread. You're just willgly ignoring my arguments at this point.

Your points are simply not convincing and I not only explained here but told you this before:

It's a living Dark Fountain, which can create the Dark Worlds, give them forms -> Both of this is creation.

and instantly make them disappear the moment they're sealed -> Without fountain = No Dark world ≠ It sustains it's existence completely every second with it's power. Things are meant to be taken case by case, there is no context nor consistency towards this sustaining and is just purely assumed to work on the dark fountain somehow spewing out power every second to keep the entirety of the Dark World existing instead of it simply being an existence based thing where the Dark World will no longer exist if the fountain doesn't because that's just how it works (I won't headcanon stuff), when the fountain is locked the world it created also goes with it... it's that simple. It's the same as in multiple verses where killing someone makes their magic/creation be dispelled immediately.
To note, I'm not saying it is strictly like that or not, I'm saying there's so many stuff it could be that the sustaining is indeed not well explained and established.

as creating it requires the creation of a Dark Fountain -> This is irrelevant and so is anything after that

StrymULTRA said:
Prove me it's not consistent lmao. A character with a single 7-B feat will definitely have it as valid by having it as superiority over a Low 7-C character, who on its own is that tier by one-shotting 8-A ones.

Again, you are conflating stuff. If it was a blatant 7-B feat from the Titan I'd give more leeway, if he blasted a city to bits, fair enough, it's blatant as hell, no reason to assume stuff and the scaling after that just has to be thought on.

But this isn't that, it's a sustaining feat which by itself will always have more doubts and be more questionable which is why the rules were even made in the first place. I don't need to prove it's not consistent, YOU need to prove it's consistent via our rules:

Requirement 4: Prove that the power of the character's stabilization consistently scales to their regular statistics, similar to our standards for creation feats.

StrymULTRA said:
You're acting like these 3 are all on the same tier in-universe, but it's really not, at all.

But to humor you a little, tell me, what will be the scaling for Chapter 5 characters? Are you all gonna claim Kris and the gang got weaker after Chapter 4 or that they hold back 3000 to 12000 of times and that's narratively consistent? Are you gonna ignore the fact that regular darkners can still harm the gang post-chapter 4, if so, why? Is even Aqua gonna be 7-B? What will happen to the trashy trio damaging Post Chapter 4 Fun Gang? Was trashy always over 3000 or 12000 times stronger than Queen in Chapter 2? Did Ball and Nubert get that much stronger?

WizardPowers101 · Saturday at 20:56

I really don’t get why people were fine with such a “stabilization feat” when, even the opposition themselves acknowledged this. Why wasn’t this struck down sooner, or even acknowledged when I literally brought this up again in the current thread. Trying to disagree simply because it was mentioned before seems ridiculous.

StrymULTRA · Saturday at 21:11

I'll try to reply to all soon, I just don't like getting words in my mouth such as "the opposition actually agreed with this" when I did not lol.

Mythic381 · Saturday at 21:20

WizardPowers101 said:
Trying to disagree simply because it was mentioned before seems ridiculous.

Discussion rules is a real thing by the way. You can have threads be rejected just because an argument was repeated from a previous thread.

You can see franchise-specific rules for that.

WizardPowers101 · Saturday at 21:34

Mythic381 said:
Discussion rules is a real thing by the way. You can have threads be rejected just because an argument was repeated from a previous thread.

You can see franchise-specific rules for that.

I am aware of this. However threads can be overruled, can be changed. Especially since my thread isn’t the same as Charmander’s, it may seem similar but also brings up the fact the stabilization feat for the Titan doesn’t actually follow the rules.

WizardPowers101 · Saturday at 21:36

StrymULTRA said:
I'll try to reply to all soon, I just don't like getting words in my mouth such as "the opposition actually agreed with this" when I did not lol.

You verbatim said in another thread that they’re 7-B via existing. Look at rule 2, not me.

ScoutManeater · Sunday at 02:14

Rodriiogo said:
But to humor you a little, tell me, what will be the scaling for Chapter 5 characters? Are you all gonna claim Kris and the gang got weaker after Chapter 4 or that they hold back 3000 to 12000 of times and that's narratively consistent? Are you gonna ignore the fact that regular darkners can still harm the gang post-chapter 4, if so, why? Is even Aqua gonna be 7-B? What will happen to the trashy trio damaging Post Chapter 4 Fun Gang? Was trashy always over 3000 or 12000 times stronger than Queen in Chapter 2? Did Ball and Nubert get that much stronger?

I dont think a optional rematch fights should automatically be capping the verse After Chapter 2 the Party Dojo already lets you fight Chapter 2 All Stars which is a sequence of older enemies. If we treated that kind of rematch as strict scaling it would create weird scaling implications like those enemies scaling to a later Kris or earlier Kris being this strong despite not progressing this far or missing equipment.

Also its implied that the Trashy Trio trained/got stronger. Nubert is visibly in a super sayian form while it could be just a little joke if you talk to them it says "The pink ball is stronger then you expected" here and that you and Nubert "both moved up in the world" So I dont think that fight should cap the verse the way you're implying

I agree with Styrm that this kind of thing needs leeway as it is a video game with RPG mechanics. I dont think the fact that older Darkners can damage the Fun Gang later by itself is enough to disprove Titan scaling

Rodriiogo · Sunday at 04:17

ScoutManeater said:
I dont think a optional rematch fights should automatically be capping the verse After Chapter 2 the Party Dojo already lets you fight Chapter 2 All Stars which is a sequence of older enemies. If we treated that kind of rematch as strict scaling it would create weird scaling implications like those enemies scaling to a later Kris or earlier Kris being this strong despite not progressing this far or missing equipment.

Also its implied that the Trashy Trio trained/got stronger. Nubert is visibly in a super sayian form while it could be just a little joke if you talk to them it says "The pink ball is stronger then you expected" here and that you and Nubert "both moved up in the world" So I dont think that fight should cap the verse the way you're implying

This isnt me trying to cap the verse, if when chapter 6 releases someone nukes a whole city then yea go ahead, scale everyone to city level, what I am calling out is that Strym tried to claim that titan being 3300x - 12000x stronger than everyone beforehand is consistent because "the titan is a whole level of power above others", I am simply saying that:

That doesnt make it consistent he still has to prove it;
It is not true unless we wanna ignore blatant stuff.

Sure you can ignore that stuff... if the alternative is more consistent and supported.
Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, they dont get 3300x - 12000x stronger during the game? Genuinely there is no supporting evidence for such a growth, chapters happen literal days apart. So even if I was trying to cap the verse at a certain tier, can you tell me what is the issue? Where is it ever supported that they grow insanely high? Is this just a headcanon at the end? (Yes)

Keep in mind, chapters 1-3 Kris are all one key because he doesnt grow much at all yet chapter 4 is. Can you please inform me whats the evidence that he even grew from chapter 3 to 4? If no then why do you consider all darkners scaling to Chapter 4 kris inconsistent?

Also I didnt simply use the trashy trio, I added how regular darkners during chapter 4-5 are all still comparable to the Fun Gang, not sure why you nitpicked them.

ScoutManeater said:
I agree with Styrm that this kind of thing needs leeway as it is a video game with RPG mechanics. I dont think the fact that older Darkners can damage the Fun Gang later by itself is enough to disprove Titan scaling

There is no leeway to give here because there is no evidence towards your side. It'd be very different if it was stated or shown that the fun gang grew a lot between chapter 3 and 4 and they are way stronger, you'd have a point, a bad one, since you can grow stronger and still be comparable, but still a point. Here? You have no point at all, you assume the fun gang insanely gaps their chapter 3 self when thats not only never stated/shown/supported/hinted at but actually straight up contradicted.

Qurbonboev · Sunday at 05:15

WizardPowers101 said:
Snip

Was there any actual reason to make this CRT right after new chapter release? Did cartel held your family hostage and forced you to make sweeping CRT before:
1. Most powerscalers here fully played new chapter.
2. Most of feats were analysed properly, calced and evaluated? (Which potentially could make your argument about 7-B being outlier erroneous)

Name just one good reason for why continuing this CRT for verse that still has discussion of new chapters disallowed in general discussion, is reasonable to do? If there is none, I am asking for staff to temporarily close this CRT

ScoutManeater · Sunday at 05:46

Rodriiogo said:
This isnt me trying to cap the verse, if when chapter 6 releases someone nukes a whole city then yea go ahead, scale everyone to city level, what I am calling out is that Strym tried to claim that titan being 3300x - 12000x stronger than everyone beforehand is consistent because "the titan is a whole level of power above others", I am simply saying that:

That doesnt make it consistent he still has to prove it;

It is not true unless we wanna ignore blatant stuff.

Sure you can ignore that stuff... if the alternative is more consistent and supported.
Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, they dont get 3300x - 12000x stronger during the game? Genuinely there is no supporting evidence for such a growth, chapters happen literal days apart. So even if I was trying to cap the verse at a certain tier, can you tell me what is the issue? Where is it ever supported that they grow insanely high? Is this just a headcanon at the end? (Yes)

Keep in mind, chapters 1-3 Kris are all one key because he doesnt grow much at all yet chapter 4 is. Can you please inform me whats the evidence that he even grew from chapter 3 to 4? If no then why do you consider all darkners scaling to Chapter 4 kris inconsistent?

They level up at the end of each chapter signifying a growth in strength it cant be evidence against there being a growth in strength plus like what Qurbon said Chapter 5 hasnt even been fully evaluated so right now apart of your reasoning is using past Kris's and Darkners against a Kris who has growed from their previous experiences

Rodriiogo said:
Also I didnt simply use the trashy trio, I added how regular darkners during chapter 4-5 are all still comparable to the Fun Gang, not sure why you nitpicked them.

So... all the darkners in chapter 1-3 should also scale realtive to the boss? why are we scaling the regular darkners to the titan the final boss of chapter 4 unless you wanna say all the darkners scale realtive to their bosses just because they hurt Kris especially after each chapter in the party Dojo

Rodriiogo said:
There is no leeway to give here because there is no evidence towards your side. It'd be very different if it was stated or shown that the fun gang grew a lot between chapter 3 and 4 and they are way stronger, you'd have a point, a bad one, since you can grow stronger and still be comparable, but still a point. Here? You have no point at all, you assume the fun gang insanely gaps their chapter 3 self when thats not only never stated/shown/supported/hinted at but actually straight up contradicted.

You have made assumptions with the titan and the darkners yet you still try to point out what you see as assumptions on us I dont see how this is a point

Its unfair to constantly try to make my side seem like its all based on assumptions and "headcannons" when yours is also pushing that boundary aswell such as with your logic all darkners would scale realtive to their boss just because they can damage Kris

SomebodyData · Sunday at 06:13

I'll have to agree with Strym's points here.

I'll note the following though:

Rodriiogo said:
This is also not at all the case, even using the currently accepted ~~inflated and wrong~~ calculations, the best feat is:

GIGA Queen's Final Attack - 2.02 Kilotons of TNT - Small Town level

The Titan is currently scaling to 6.3 megatons of TNT, that is not consistency, that's a ~3119x DIFFERENCE.
Note that people have already called out that this calculation is wrong and are planning to downgrade it, using the next best (still inflated and wrong) feat of:

Tenna claps his hands at Massively Hypersonic speed - 513.24 Tons of TNT - Multi-City Block level

Would make the difference even worse to a ~12275x DIFFERENCE.

The fact we're using this frankly dubious and extremely contentious "feat" as the entire verse's scaling when this requirement for stabilization feats exists shows some crazy level of bias if I'm allowed to say.

---

Wanna be clear if it wasn't obvious, I fully disagree with the titans scaling to the 7-B.

While I understand the point you're trying to make here, it only really works as long as you ignore the actual tiers. A jump from the 3k gap really isn't that crazy once you translate it to the actual tiers (Low 7-C to 7-B), if anything - you noting this made it clearer that its not an outlier. Now if you disagree with the calcs themselves, maybe there is a point there, but this wouldn't be the thread for it.

Rodriiogo said:
There is no leeway to give here because there is no evidence towards your side. It'd be very different if it was stated or shown that the fun gang grew a lot between chapter 3 and 4 and they are way stronger, you'd have a point, a bad one, since you can grow stronger and still be comparable, but still a point. Here? You have no point at all, you assume the fun gang insanely gaps their chapter 3 self when thats not only never stated/shown/supported/hinted at but actually straight up contradicted.

Both sides are wrong here, unless either side can provide evidence that the gang got stronger or that the rematches are anything more than just an optional game fight there isn't really any use to this point.

CastoriceTheFifth · Sunday at 06:29

SomebodyData said:
I'll have to agree with Strym's points here.

I'll note the following though:

While I understand the point you're trying to make here, it only really works as long as you ignore the actual tiers. A jump from the 3k gap really isn't that crazy once you translate it to the actual tiers (Low 7-C to 7-B), if anything - you noting this made it clearer that its not an outlier. Now if you disagree with the calcs themselves, maybe there is a point there, but this wouldn't be the thread for it.

Both sides are wrong here, unless either side can provide evidence that the gang got stronger or that the rematches are anything more than just an optional game fight there isn't really any use to this point.

How many disagrees would it take for a crt to conclude?

SomebodyData · Sunday at 06:31

I don't think there is a standard but given the amount of disagreeing votes I think its enough for grace(anti-grace?) to start.

CastoriceTheFifth · Sunday at 06:32

SomebodyData said:
I don't think there is a standard but given the amount of disagreeing votes I think its enough for grace(anti-grace?) to start.

Wouldnt it be like 48 hours after thread creation, so basically like 1 more day

SomebodyData · Sunday at 06:46

Think its 48 hours after the needed votes are obtained (I'm assuming grace starts after my vote)

Jepilstiltskin · Sunday at 06:57

Rodriiogo said:
Keep in mind, chapters 1-3 Kris are all one key because HE doesnt grow much at all yet chapter 4 is. Can you please inform me whats the evidence that HE even grew from chapter 3 to 4? If no then why do you consider all darkners scaling to Chapter 4 kris inconsistent?

IDK3465 · Sunday at 07:47

Just realized I didn’t reply to this earlier lol
Uh, yeah, disagree bc of Styrm’s reasons

I can see why someone would be iffy on Titan scaling for other reasons (I do think Rodrii has a point with the outlier stuff, even if I ultimately disagree), but the Titans somehow not being dark fountains is just stupid

Zyurtunder13 · Sunday at 10:01

Rodriiogo said:
Keep in mind, chapters 1-3 Kris are all one key because he doesnt grow much at all yet chapter 4 is. Can you please inform me whats the evidence that he even grew from chapter 3 to 4? If no then why do you consider all darkners scaling to Chapter 4 kris inconsistent?

*they

Rodriiogo · Sunday at 11:57

ScoutManeater said:
They level up at the end of each chapter signifying a growth in strength it cant be evidence against there being a growth in strength plus like what Qurbon said Chapter 5 hasnt even been fully evaluated so right now apart of your reasoning is using past Kris's and Darkners against a Kris who has growed from their previous experiences

That way has visible stats that show that some stats the fun gang have is still below some of the stats other members have in previous chapters. This is not a good point. And neither is chapter 5 not being evaluated because Kris. Does. Not. Grow. Much.

ScoutManeater said:
So... all the darkners in chapter 1-3 should also scale realtive to the boss? why are we scaling the regular darkners to the titan the final boss of chapter 4 unless you wanna say all the darkners scale realtive to their bosses just because they hurt Kris especially after each chapter in the party Dojo

Can you explain the inconsistrncy or are you gonna keep claiming it makes no sense, saying he got "so stronger" when thats cleary not the case? The inconsistency comes from YOU trying to upgrade them to imaginary levels.

ScoutManeater said:
You have made assumptions with the titan and the darkners yet you still try to point out what you see as assumptions on us I dont see how this is a point

What assumption did I make?

ScoutManeater said:
Its unfair to constantly try to make my side seem like its all based on assumptions and "headcannons" when yours is also pushing that boundary aswell such as with your logic all darkners would scale realtive to their boss just because they can damage Kris

What I did was not headcanon? Lmao. I used logic and your argument is saying it "makes no sense" because... it makes no sense.

Rodriiogo · Sunday at 12:04

SomebodyData said:
While I understand the point you're trying to make here, it only really works as long as you ignore the actual tiers. A jump from the 3k gap really isn't that crazy once you translate it to the actual tiers (Low 7-C to 7-B), if anything - you noting this made it clearer that its not an outlier. Now if you disagree with the calcs themselves, maybe there is a point there, but this wouldn't be the thread for it.

I think you clearly skipped the point. I wasnt saying its an outlier because its too high. I said this stabilization (7-B feat) is inconsistent with their regular stats. Which it is, even if you wanna ignore the numbers and say "its just 3 tiers", thats still against our stabilization rules, specifically Requirement 4
I also did not simply talk about the inconsistency but the entirety rest of the point on how Requirement 2 also isnt fulfilled by the Titan feat.

SomebodyData said:
Both sides are wrong here, unless either side can provide evidence that the gang got stronger or that the rematches are anything more than just an optional game fight there isn't really any use to this point.

I did not simply use the rematches.
I added how regular darkners throughout the chapters damage Kris. I used the optional fights as extra evidence.

However if you agree that theres no evidence fan gang did not get much stronger then how could I be wrong? It'd mean chapter 1-3 Kris is ~ chapter 4 therefore everyone that scales to chapter 1-3 kris (every darkner basically) would scale to the 7-B.

I'll answer better when im on pc now.

Eden_Warlock99 · Sunday at 12:33

Rodriiogo said:
That way has visible stats that show that some stats the fun gang have is still below some of the stats other members have in previous chapters. This is not a good point. And neither is chapter 5 not being evaluated because Kris. Does. Not. Grow. Much.

Tbf, it seems like RECRUIT stats and CHECK stats (which also appear to be the same as the Menu stats) are different for some reason.

It doesn't change much, given the Fun Gang's DEF has been stuck at 2 ever since CH1 and has never increased, but it's still worth noting.

Which is why I honestly think you should just make your own thread on this. The OP's proposed solution doesn't actually solve the "Kris not growing much stronger" issue.
You'd still have LV4 Kris at,

Small Town level (2.018 Kilotons), massively upscaling from GIGA Queen.

So even if this thread passes, Shinobeetle would still be able to solo the gigantic mech that was invincible and one-shot the entire Fun Gang at LV2.

Rodriiogo · Sunday at 13:45

Eden_Warlock99 said:
Tbf, it seems like RECRUIT stats and CHECK stats (which also appear to be the same as the Menu stats) are different for some reason.

It doesn't change much, given the Fun Gang's DEF has been stuck at 2 ever since CH1 and has never increased, but it's still worth noting.

Which is why I honestly think you should just make your own thread on this. The OP's proposed solution doesn't actually solve the "Kris not growing much stronger" issue.
You'd still have LV4 Kris at,

So even if this thread passes, Shinobeetle would still be able to solo the gigantic mech that was invincible and one-shot the entire Fun Gang at LV2.

I was pretty much saying that using the stats increase through LV simply isnt a good argument, as if we go purely of stats, well you said what happens really so the LV thing isnt something that contradicts the idea I said and will actually just support what im saying (everyone is comparable, no one is thousands of times stronger)

Maybe I'd need a separate thread to kill the "fun gang is much stronger" idea on its page, but I think its valid for me to use right now to prove that "Titan is on another level so him being 3300x - 12000x stronger is consistent therefore the stabilization feat is valid" is just not true, so it doesnt fullfil requirement 4 of our stabilization feat rules. (Doesnt fullfil requirement 2 either)

WizardPowers101 · Sunday at 17:11

Qurbonboev said:
Was there any actual reason to make this CRT right after new chapter release? Did cartel held your family hostage and forced you to make sweeping CRT before:
1. Most powerscalers here fully played new chapter.
2. Most of feats were analysed properly, calced and evaluated? (Which potentially could make your argument about 7-B being outlier erroneous)

Name just one good reason for why continuing this CRT for verse that still has discussion of new chapters disallowed in general discussion, is reasonable to do? If there is none, I am asking for staff to temporarily close this CRT

What are you talking about? I made this thread without any intent that you're disgustingly assuming. And this isn't about a new chapter? Are you even here for anything or just to argue about nothing?

WizardPowers101 · Sunday at 17:15

IDK3465 said:
Just realized I didn’t reply to this earlier lol
Uh, yeah, disagree bc of Styrm’s reasons

I can see why someone would be iffy on Titan scaling for other reasons (I do think Rodrii has a point with the outlier stuff, even if I ultimately disagree), but the Titans somehow not being dark fountains is just stupid

so you disagree specifically on the fountain point?

WizardPowers101 · Sunday at 17:17

SomebodyData said:
I don't think there is a standard but given the amount of disagreeing votes I think its enough for grace(anti-grace?) to start.

So…just to be 100% clear. You disagree with the thread right right now, correct?

Qurbonboev · Sunday at 18:25

WizardPowers101 said:
What are you talking about? I made this thread without any intent that you're disgustingly assuming.

Where in my post did I assume your intentions for making this thread that early? Can you show me that sentence? (Besides obvious joke about cartels, ig)

WizardPowers101 said:
And this isn't about a new chapter?

Don't you agree that making huge CRT without properly analysing and dissecting new chapter is strange to do? Imagine, if someone tried to do giant scaling CRT for manga, while huge War Arc is ongoing. Every reasonable person would suggest to hold on these changes until Arc finishes properly.

A Titan's Physiology and The Nature of Dark Fountains [DELTARUNE]

Waiting for Walpurgisnacht Rising and Metroid 6...

Waiting for Walpurgisnacht Rising and Metroid 6...

Waiting for Walpurgisnacht Rising and Metroid 6...

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