[TYPE-MOON] True Magic High 1-A+, Akashic Records and Root thread

ShinMaximillion · Jun 27, 2026

A magician is not deterred by the face of adversity, for a Magician carves an impossible path through it.

The purpose of the thread initially was to formally separate the Akashic Records as a different key from the Swirl of the Root, as Ultima basically suggested of us to do. But I figured since the Akashic Records are directly what grounds True Magic, I figured I might as well do them both.

In that thread, it was established that fundamentally, 「」is essentially absolute unity and non-duality—beyond existence, intelligibility and being. And the Akashic Records were the very undivided self-unfolding of all phenomena that is grounded by the Swirl of the Root. Origins are what determine the patterning that the fate generated by World Souls and Human Souls tends towards, in virtue of being grounded in that fundamental principle.

So the Akashic Records are undivided actuality, and Origins are irreducible and expressions of that undivided actuality—that determines how all things in potential will come to be in actuality, viz their patterning, of how they are gonna come into actuality.

I'll be assuming you at least read the older thread going forward, because some things said there will not be repeated here.

But for a short explanation otherwise, where the explanation of the first thread may have failed here and there.

The Swirl of the Root as the Akashic Records:
The Swirl of the Root is the Absolute ground of everything, the source of existence beyond all else. In some cases, it is even said, calling it a 'cause', 'origin', or even 'zero', which is usually attributed to the Akashic Records, already obscures its essence.
The Akashic Records, in turn, are what is described as the Swirl of the Root—as the beginning and end of everything. It is also what is described of the Root, as ultimate knowledge/perfect knowledge, pinnacle of Magic (True Magic), pinnacle of truth, and the mystery of all mysteries; or in other words, the greatest 'mystery' beyond them all. But what the term 'pinnacle' means will be covered in the afterthought of this section.
The manner by which the Akashic Records serve as the beginning and end of everything is not insofar as the Akashic Records being a composite set of events. But rather, precisely insofar as all things are, they are ontologically posterior to the Swirl of the Root, and are yet to separate or differentiate. This is also why the Akashic Records are described in contradictory terms, as you'll see:

She continues in an unsteady voice, as if still staring at it.“…The Swirl of the Root. The place where all causes are swirling together—everything is prepared there, and yet it’s a place where nothing exists.

Here, Nihil [void] Shiki described it as where all causes (causes in this case are Origins by the way, as they are the causes of all unfoldings of all beings) swirl together—where all things are prepared, and so there's nothing that exists there.

Mash: The divine coordinates where the results of past, present, and future Swirl. Also known as the Akashic Records, it's the ultimate goal for magi — or rather, for the magecraft world.

And here, Mash goes a completely different direction, and describes it as where the divine coordinates where the results of the past, present and future are 'recorded'. And the meaning of the term 'recorded' will also be accounted for later, so worry not about that for now.

But alas, it calls into question exactly how they can it can both be the where all causes swirl and where all results are simultaneously. And the answer to that is a single word attributed to the Akashic Records: zero. It is said by the Grand Master of the Tohsaka family, one of the Five wielders of True Magic, who reached the Root after pushing jewel magecraft to its limits. Briefly gives us a hint, through Rin Tohsaka's recollection:

Even so, magecraft does have its benefits. Just as there are some things only science can accomplish, there remain heights only Mystics can reach. If science is racing into the future, then mages are racing into the past.

Saying that while within the human universe, mystery and knowledge are in conflict (viz., separation and duality), science races towards the future and modern wielders of magecraft race towards the past. But there's a reason why neither ever reaches the Root: it is because the past and future are not in conflict

I think the Tohsaka grandmaster said that. Whether you're heading into the past or the future, your destination is the same: zero, or something like that.

Rather, for Zelretch, the pinnacle of the greatest of Magicians (True Magic users) and Magi (magecraft users), whether you're facing the past or future, the destination is the same: it is zero. Which is essentially a middle way type of argument: if at the most fundamental level the past doesn't face the future, and the future doesn't face away from the past. And if the past cannot be defined as 'other' than the future, insofar as the arrow of time flows towards the future. Then the future has no meaning. And if the future is not facing away from the past, insofar as succeeding after a past moment. Then the past has no meaning.

Ryougi Shiki propose a similar argument via the inference rule reductio ad absurdum, very common in Madhyamaka sects of Buddhism; assuming duality and individuality as independent and self-existent to prove otherwise: that dualities are co-extensive and co-dependent on one another, and so are not absolutes nor the ultimate truth.

“It’s the same as this bridge. One kind of waste is scorned as foolishness, while another kind of waste is praised as art. Where, exactly, does the boundary between them lie?

She asks first, how is it that one kind of waste is scorned as foolishness whilst another is praised as art. Where does the boundary/separation lie? If it is anything but uncertain?

The boundary is uncertain. Even though we say we ourselves define it, in reality it ends up being decided by those on the outside.

She then furthers the argument, saying humans (subject) say we ourselves define the separation between things, even when in reality it often ends up being determined by things outside (objects outside of the defining subject) of the human that defines that. In other words, it is neither the case that separation has independent existence in virtue of the human who defines the separation between things. Nor contrary to this, is not even in virtue of the thing the human seems outside of itself, that which it then defines as separate from it, depending on the object itself. And she concludes that, if it is the case, then the subject cannot independently define duality/separation/boundaries without first acknowledging the object outside of it. And it is also the case that the object cannot determine separation by itself, for it is the subject that 'defines' the separation to begin with.

If that’s the case, then perhaps there was never any boundary to begin with.

She then concludes that separation never existed as an independent substance, self-sufficient principle within reality. That then, perhaps, boundaries were never a thing to begin with. The world is divided entirely by empty boundaries. There is no wall in society that truly separates abnormality from normality.

—The ones who create those divisions are, ultimately, us.”

That the world is divided by empty boundaries, a conclusion that Madhyamaka would probably agree with, hehe. Alas, this is also further elucidated in Fate/Extra CCC, they say all of creation is an illusion. That in reality all things are nothing, and if you remember earlier, I showed that Void Shiki defines this zero too, as nothingness. It is said that one must transcend Maya (the root of the illusion of duality as the essence of reality) and reach Nirvana to recognise this truth. Divine Spirits in general, for example, like Amaterasu, are already at this level naturally because they exist in realms (the Reverse Side/Age of Gods textures)—whereby dualities are not primary modes of experience but secondary.

All human beings have two sides, a yin and a yang. Maybe this Rin is something that could never exist as the real Rin, the Rin of some alternate world.

In this same scan, they describe how, unlike the gods, humans (who all have a yin and yang) within them must unify their yin and yang sides. To become one with the universe (no longer perceiving it as external/separate or dual essentially), and becoming blessed with power by "the other side"—the Akashic Records.

The Akashic Records; the Taiji: unity of yin and yang

The Akashic Records is the Supreme Ultimate, Taiji, being even directly called as such numerous times, one example being:

At the Root, all things are recorded. Maybe Shiki is dreaming within the Taiji...

Here, the Root aspect refers to the records; the Akashic Records themselves. And herein, they are called 'Taiji', such that when one comes into contact with them. They perceive not the differentiated world as they would when not there, but instead, what occurs is:

... — dreaming the dream called the history of this world, including our records at this very moment.

They don't perceive the world as something external; instead dreaming all of the history of this world, all of its records, including that of oneself, as a dream. The reason for this is more interesting than this itself. Taiji is usually deeply paired with Wuji; the connection is retained even etymologically.

Wuji is compounded from Wu and Ji, the Wu signifies nothingness/no/negation, and Ji signifies 'boundaries/polarity/duality'. Together, the word Wuji, in itself, signifies the ultimate reality as without boundaries, duality and limits, in virtue of being pre-differentiated and ontologically prior to the determinative separation between yin and yang. Taiji is usually the same ultimate reality when viewed in relation to the differentiated world. The Tai of Taiji signifies 'extremity', 'supremity', 'summit', 'limit' and compounded with ji, Taiji is the extremity of duality.

Wherein yin and yang reach their limits, and they together become a coincidence (coincide in unity-without-opposing one another).

This is ultimately where the descriptions of the Swirl of the Root as the "greatest mystery", "ultimate knowledge", pinnacle of "truth", and even "summit of dimensional theory" (the definition of dimension is extremely broad and includes spiritual ones in Type Moon) come from. It doesn't mean all things are reaching an end, common to their domain of existence. No, but something more fundamental than that, it is the perfection of duality—viz integration into undivided actuality. And we can actually observe the reliability of this conclusion, from anecdotes of the Akashic Records level of existence:

I was dreaming. I was aware of that.

Gray experiences the Akashic Records, and she begins by saying she's dreaming, dreaming of herself as that undivided actuality—herself as the end of all things. The first thing she notices is that every description she tries of it ultimately fails. And the descriptions that fail are descriptions that attempt to dualise it, and I think this part was intentional:

The surroundings were like darkness, yet in truth, it was not darkness at all. It was not light either—perhaps it was the absence of color itself, or so I thought. I was severed from everything. Only the flow remained. It was a vortex.

There was nothing there, and yet, everything was there. A swirling chaos of contradictions. My intuition told me that if I stepped into it, I would never be able to return.

It was not light, but if it is not light, then it should be dark, no? But it was also not dark, neither light nor dark.

Not the coexistence or co-extension of these dualities, no, it was the absence of them altogether, the absence of colour. The word colour is also used in 'Type Moon', for descriptions as obscuring purity, like, for example, Reines saying descriptions add colour to the ultimate reality that obscures its essence. The next part of this exposition essentially confirms that:

I was severed from everything. Only the flow remained. It was a vortex.
There was nothing there, and yet, everything was there. A swirling chaos of contradictions**. My intuition told me that if I stepped into it, I would never be able to return.

It is the absence of everything. Gray is cut off from everything to the extent that the only thing that remains is the flow—a swirl—where nothing is there, yet everything was there.
A swirl of chaos, contradictions:

Yet, my feet did not stop. Not even the will to stop arose. The flow itself was me, and I was the flow. Why should I fear returning to the place I was born?
"……… … … …"

The flow was Gray herself, and Gray was the flow; all things are the Akashic Records in essence. It may be confusing as to how something absent from everything, as an undivided reality (without parts), can simultaneously be everything.

The answer to that is that it is everything in a different mode of being. Or rather, it is duality that is the Akashic Records, but in a different mode of being. But the reconciliation of this will be covered in the True Magic and Soul section. Duality being at its extremity is systematically demonstrated even more so, right after the aforementioned cited passage:

At this moment, I could see it.
Inside the vortex.
A space where mind, body, time, and space bled into one another like tangled, dissolving threads.
And within it—an incomprehensible record, spreading outward.

We're told in the presence of it, dualities like: mind and body, time and space.

Altogether bled into one another, like folding a cloth of different things first into one. Then, after they become tangled with one another, they begin dissolving, and all that remains is an incomprehensible record: the perfection of all things into non-division. Now, with regard to it specifically being the perfection or actuality of all things, into indivisible unity, we can refer to Ryougi's exposition wherein she speaks of it in pleromatic (fullness/perfection/self-fulfilment) terms:

No matter how long I stare into the distance, I see nothing. No matter how long I wait for something, I still see nothing.It’s profoundly calm… and utterly fulfilling. This is death. Because every meaning is gone, here merely being is perfection.

She says no matter how long you wait for something, nothing is there, yet it was profoundly calm and utterly fulfilling. Because even meaning presupposes duality with what is meant (as meaning and meant are two different things even when interrelated), every meaning is gone, so being/existence is in itself perfection. It turns out even words and language conventionally has its beginning in that undivided actuality, because language and words are ultimately composite things that require duality as a condition. And it is the precondition of duality, which is why this undivided actuality, despite being only just a derivative aspect of the Root, also can only be described in negative terms:

“Ryougi Shiki” sank endlessly. There was no end. No—perhaps I had never fallen at all. Here, there is nothing. Not merely an absence of light, but not even darkness. Because there is nothing, nothing can be seen. There is not even the concept of “falling.”The very word “nothingness” likely cannot exist.

Shiki attempts to describe her experience as falling and sinking endlessly, then realises that it is inaccurate. Then says no, she never fell at all, because there's nothing, there's nothing 'to fall to'. It wasn't merely an absence of light, but even its dual counterpart, darkness. Because there's nothing, there's nothing to see, even the word 'nothingness' likely cannot exist.

For every phenomenon, there is an original cause—the Absolute One from which it all began.
It is both the beginning and the end of this universe.

The Akashic Records is an Absolute 'One', from which every phenomenon began, the original cause. It is also the telos of all things, according to the actuality of its existence, according to which all things proceed towards their own actuality as well.

There, there exists 'that which has recorded everything.' Though rather than being a record, it simply is, so it cannot truly be called information. It merely exists.

Their creation is said to be 'recorded' there, but that is only an analogical description of what it actually is. Because in truth, it cannot be said to be anything but that which 'simply is', it cannot be called anything, not even information; it is pure existence itself: it simply exists. This is essentially existence monism taken to the extreme, the idea that differentiation itself depends ontologically on pure existence, and pure existence itself is independent of differentiation, for it is a precondition of it.

It possesses neither will nor any possible directionality. It is simply something like a whirlpool of the Root, endlessly pouring forth causes.

So it possesses neither will, nor any possible directionality in itself, but as it exercises its infinite causal power, outpouring causes endlessly forth, directionality [Origins] come to determine how things will unfold from the Akashic Records according to their archetype/patterning/principle. Origins are the principles of things, and the Akashic of all things. The Akashic Records have no directionality in themselves, because it is where things are simultaneously from and where they are already. Origins, on the other hand:

Origin
If the absolute attribute known as "Origin" determines the fundamental aspects of magic, then the deeper element, which governs the very essence of existence itself, is the Origin. The Origin is not only possessed by magi but by all beings. It represents an inherent directionality, the fundamental essence that all existence is believed to possess as indivisible.

Are still part of the "indivisible essence of Existence itself" when expressed, outpouring how things get to where they are, and how things begin. So the Akashic Records are the fact that things are, and so "it simply is" and "is perfection", but Origins are how things are, and in what virtue are they perfect.

There is a definite starting point for what you call ‘you,’ a place where your existence first came into being. But that place holds no such thing as life. What exists there is merely the initial cause*—only a direction that determines how things will unfold."

They exist all the way within the Akashic Records (co-extensive with the Root), before (ontologically) things even unfold or become, as the preconditions for how things become. So they have a metaphysical identity with the Akashic Records; they are two ways to refer to the perfection of all things.

It is the cause of everything [すべての原因であり], the zero [ゼロ] that set all phenomena and events [現象・事象] into motion.

It appears the Akashic Records are the cause—zero insofar as it sets all phenomena and events into motion—consequently contains the beginning and end of everything as pure actuality.

The Swirl of the Root (Akasha) The origin point from which all phenomena and events arise. It is the source of all existence itself, and even the Akashic Records—said to contain everything from the beginning of the world to its end—are regarded as merely one part of this “Swirl of the Root.”

And the Swirl of the Root in itself is the origin point from which phenomena and events arise, the precondition of phenomena and events. Whilst the Akashic Records are the precondition of motion, for phenomena and events, it is at once regarded as merely a derivative mode of the Swirl of the Root, apart from its fullness.

However, the term "Swirl of the Root" [根源の渦] is nothing more than a convenient label [便宜上のもの]. In truth, trying to encapsulate it in words is itself a mistake [本質的には言葉にする方が間違いで]. It’s said that calling it simply “　” [「」]—leaving it unnamed—might actually come closer to its essence.

It is then this that is the nameless of the Root, so with this, the origin of phenomena and events—the source of existence itself, beyond it all. The term 'Swirl of the Root' comes to be only a convenient label; no words can exhaust it, not even perfection. It is「」that can be said to come closer to its essence, to be nameless, but even that is not a guarantee, because it is only close to it, not what it is.

But you understand from suspecting it alone that trying to talk about it is meaningless altogether. Every statement is structurally asymptotic, and so it can approach, but it never ever coincides.

Akashic Records: High 1-A+ (Type 2)
Swirl of the Root - 「」: Tier 0

The Akashic Records as Logos: On Absolute Laws and Mysteries (coincidence of mystery and law) of Creation

When Magicians touch upon the Swirl of the Root, they don't 'physically' connect to it like it were a cosmic server with data about reality or an archive of existence. They touch upon 'ultimate knowledge' simpliciter:

Mash: Mages aim for the Swirl of the Root in order to touch ultimate knowledge and uncover truths! Those who reach the Swirl of the Root come to know everything in this world, acquiring Mystery that does not exist in our world -Magic- and gaining the title of Magician. Isn't the process of trying to understand its workings......and reaching that what's important!?

Mash goes even so far as to say they come to know everything in this world, and making that description co-extensive too on them acquiring Magic: being bestowed the title (True) Magician. Notice that after Mash says gaining the title Magician, she says the process of trying to 'understand' (attain knowledge) is working, and reaching that point.

Mash: However...only six people have reached the Swirl of the Root. And even for those six, they could do no more than touch it.

Suggesting that in the modern era, only six people have reached the Root and become Magicians (Aozaki's grandfather being one of them, alongside Aoko), and one doesn't need to dissolve but rather 'touch upon' it.

But of course, the controversial statement here is the fact that Magicians come to know everything about the created/contingent world, as it may imply they are omniscient, which I think this reading is not supported by the source material.

The Root in the World of Magecraft

Aoko: That's right. And it's also the ultimate goal.The Swirl of the Root is the place where all wisdom is recorded, the place where all things are determined.

The Swirl of the Root in the world of magecraft is the ultimate goal of all magi. Because precisely a place where all wisdom is recorded (without potentiality)(only in actuality)) and all things are determined (only in actuality).

If one could see it, touch it, and understand it, then even the very word 'impossible' could be rewritten. Its name varies depending on the tradition, but in the end, it's probably the place where God resides.

The 'ultimate knowledge' magicians attain through the Akashic Records is knowledge that rewrites the word 'impossible'—after all, it is from a reality where the distinction between impossible and possible is yet to be parsed.
The distinction between this knowledge that attains the impossible, and the knowledge of magecraft which attains the possible. Is not a symmetric difference, but impossible knowledge in this context refers to logos:

Where's my next wife? Where is the wife bearing my magic key?Who am I? Of course I know. I exist to understand everything. I exist to reach the ideal.**The logos of the world.

The idea that they come to know everything in this world is a derivative of attaining the Root as logos of the world, a step below its undivided actuality: the Akashic Records. To touch upon it is to understand everything, and all beings exist to reach it, even when they don't consciously choose to do so (free will is maintained).

The alpha and the omega. The absolute laws of creation.The Root. Thus I couldn't go on without knowing who I am.

What is revealed is not the 'undivided actuality' of knowledge or all things, but what is revealed to them is the absolute laws of creation—that operate eternally in reality from the beginning and end—so too the alpha and omega. It is the way the Akashic Records determines all things, through uncreated energies. Unmade operations and activities:

Someone once said, "Had it only ended at the Third..."Magecraft is the study of history;feats of our making, and life orbiting the planet.

Magecraft is a study of history, a mere common trace of the divine. Feats of mankind according to their limited mode of power, and the life orbiting the planet within the human universe.

But True Magic is the providence of a god beyond the heavens.
Why do those who stand on the earth extol the virtues of miracles beyond humankind and the planet?

True Magic, however, is greater than that; it is a revelation—providence directly from the God beyond the heavens. It is the reason why those who attain it can extol the virtues of miracles beyond humankind and the Planet. I say uncreated energies, because True Magic operations have been shown numerous times to be timeless and spaceless, at times even say to be before meaning, determining even meaning fundamentally.

And I'll go over this all at once

The Souls (original essence of soul) true senses: Attaining direct participation in the Akashic Records

“Aozaki. What do you mean, not a single survivor?”
“Exactly that. No one who has touched the Root has ever come back. On a worldwide scale, I mean. The moment you touch it, you're erased. For a soul on the level of a human being, the instant it comes into contact with the Root, it either returns to its original state or is absorbed into the Root.”

Aoko says nobody has ever come back from touching the Root on a worldwide scale, that when the soul at the level of a human touches it, it is erased. In that instant, "it returns to its original state" or otherwise "absorbed into the Root". Which seems strange at first, because she had just attained the Root and was aware she had—even that she awakened True Magic itself. So I think the least bit is clear, she doesn't mean you are erased or absorbed metaphysically or physically.
Rather, the Soul returns to what it always was, before inhabiting the body to assume individuality. There's no need for the Soul in its essence to return to the Root; it is already a mystery as it is. But the soul, when it assumes activity, engages with an openness that allows for an immediate experience of duality as primary.

"I became obsessed with puppet automation, all to attain/reach at 『』through the perfect model of man." On the contrary, he was trying to reach 『』through the soul rather than the physical vessel. In short, through something where existence is non-existence like the cat inside a box which couldn't be measured."He was trying to reach 『』 through that which is 'absent' (『無い』).The physical body cannot be seen through precisely because it possesses a definite form. But the soul, having no form, is transparent.

Pure soul in itself can participate directly in/be in alignment naturally with the Root because it is transparent in itself. The body, however, is not transparent, so when the pure soul is by itself, it can connect to the Root. Yet when it comes to operating in the body, it is already more than just pure soul. Gaining fixed form separate from the external world, in the material world, which is a material body. Attaining the Root is not something added onto the soul; the limited perception of the soul through the eyes of the retinas of the body is what is added. It obscures the individual from the essence of their own soul, and we know this because the only way Gray could see the Akashic Records, not even as an object but as herself, was because the soul was separated from the body:

Near the vortex, I saw something else.
Only my senses expanded.
Perhaps it was because I was on the verge of death.
Freed from the constraints of a physical vessel, my spirit and soul had begun to stretch beyond their limits, amplifying my true abilities.
Perhaps that was why—
At this moment, I could see it.
Inside the vortex.

What allowed her to see at this label was the fact that the soul was finally freed from the constraints and limits of the physical vessel. Spirit and soul then begin to stretch beyond their previous limits from the body, amplifying one's senses and their true abilities. The soul returns to the true scale of its perception and apprehension, which allows for its connection to the Root.

"A soul that exists in the corporeal world is a shadow cast from a higher dimension, and through the body cast from a higher dimension, and through the body used as a catalyst, it guides the mind."

The soul as it operates in the material world, is but a shadow of itself cast from a higher dimension—well, the higher dimension is 'nowhere' and unreachable to the degree that one cannot compare it to another dimension here:

In short, it was a place that was nowhere(どこでもない), a world that was nowhere. Freed from(解き放たれた) from the very concept(概念) of Time(時間), the world had neither morning nor night(なく), neither did it have the sun nor the moon. Only a faint Aurora lit the sky. There was no change(変化) in this World. The spreading Sea knew of no waves, and the Sky knew no drifting clouds. While dwelling in such a World, the Dragon felt a little bit lonely as he could see neither the Moon nor the Stars. So the Dragon chose to shut his eyelids. When he did, what filled him within were his countless, deeply nostalgic memories. It is a proud past, one he'd never be tired of, no matter how many thousands or tens of thousands of times he relives it.

But that's a thread for another time.

The process of attaining True Magic is similar, in that this time, this mode of apprehension is essentially brought forth to the immediate awareness of a human, even as they are within the body.

Suddenly. Here, with no answers in sight, confronted by the foolishness that came from beyond, I feel like fading away. “Right now, I must unify the consciousness that is regressing toward zero into a single whole. This sound.This kind of foolish nonsense—so vexing it almost brings me to tears—is no time for me to be held back by it.My greatest problem from the very start is that red ghost.”

One's consciousness regresses to zero, and I'm sure, just judging from all of the aforementioned, you can make out that the implication is that it is 'letting go of differentiation'. And so, as it regresses to zero, the soon-to-be Magician must unify that loss of differentiation into a whole. Thereafter, there's no longer a separation between your immediate awareness and zero. This is because even thought has a common end:

Hasara: thoughts returning from the end of the universe. Seems scholars from long ago had enough to theorize.

Hasara, for example, makes note that thoughts of the soul return from the end of the universe. Not that 'soul gains something new' but 'soul remembers what it had at the end'. Thought outside of time precedes potentiality; it is in actuality, but within time, potentiality and one attains thought as an actuality. The beginning of thought is in the end of thought, and the end of thought in the beginning of thought. Human/finite thought is in between the beginning and the end:

"They study solely for themselves, yet they don't use that power for themselves.What meaning is there in a way of life like that, Touko?If the purpose is learning, then is the process itself also merely learning?

At zero or the Akashic Records, learning as the goal/purpose is identical to the process itself. Or the process of learning comes to identity with its goal or its actuality.

If there is only a beginning and an end, then isn't that no different from zero?"...As always, Shiki spoke in a delicate, crystal-clear feminine voice, yet with the manner of speech of a man.

Which is why the Akashic Records, after all, is described as zero; it is where only the beginning and end exist. Duality is between the beginning and end, and so where there's only the beginning and end, it doesn't exist. It is contingent on this zero; it proceeds from zero and returns back into indivisible at its end.

Now remember, if we recall, Magecraft was also constrained by duality, in virtue of being in conflict with science. Something that is between zero, not where zero is at the beginning and end.

Even so, magecraft does have its benefits. Just as there are some things only science can accomplish, there remain heights only Mystics can reach. If science is racing into the future, then mages are racing into the past. I think the Tohsaka grandmaster said that. Whether you're heading into the past or the future, your destination is the same: zero, or something like that.

Because it still chases zero by running to the beginning (past), whilst science chases zero by racing to the end (future).

Well, properly speaking, thinking in terms of 'original' and 'unoriginal' at this level is misleading. Because by 'returning to its original' and nothing being 'added onto', I mean to emphasise the collapse of the distinction that makes “original vs acquired” meaningful in the first place.

This distinction, after all, exists only when the soul comes into contact with the body. And so we have a new determination we call 'body', which is a new mode of being; it takes, alongside the determination that remains as this aforementioned activity within body, proceeds directly from its original state. So the original state always remains, and it is before this separation, because this separation exists only on the side of the material world, not the soul itself.

And so, with this being said, True Magic too is neither in the past nor present. As that duality is only privileged to magecraft, which runs to the past, and science, which runs to the future. But it also is at zero, though this isn't to say it is the Akashic Records; this part will be clarified then.

Zero-in-the-finite

All Magicians can be demonstrated to 'perceive' all things as actuality, not to the degree of the Akashic Records. If by 'perceive' we don't mean actuality as an object, as I've covered, but a state whereby 'perceived' and 'perceiver' are not separate, basically the reintegration of the finite into the infinite. The result is not pure unity like the Akashic Records in itself, but the Magician:

Even the whispered voice—“This is death”—is probably a dream. All I do is perceive something like time. There is nothing. No—there isn’t even time here, and yet I can observe it.Naturally, as if it were flowing in disarray, miserably as though rotting, I count nothing but the passage of time.No matter how long I stare into the distance, I see nothing. No matter how long I wait for something, I still see nothing.

This is why a trace of multiplicity can be seen, even when it is ultimately acknowledged as an illusion. But a trace is there nonetheless, which it wouldn't be in the Akashic Records in-themselves. Shiki Ryougi sees a trace of time within the Akashic Records, acknowledging that time doesn't exist in the Akashic Records themselves, but she can see a trace of it nonetheless. This is an important differentiating characteristic between the Soul and the Origins/Akashic Records; the former achieves unity-after-difference. And so even in unity, a trace of difference can be perceived. Whilst the latter—the Akashic Records, is unity-itself, at least as undivided actuality and existence.

True Magic does something extremely similar as well:

"Or rather, it is like crossing the wall of dimensions. If you try running all the way to the end, there is a world made by completely different rules, and you end up learning those rules..... I suppose that is what it comes down to."

Aoko gives us a figurative description of what it is to attain True Magic, for us to work with to derive this conclusion. She says it is like going to a different world with different rules and learning. So we immediately know this is neither the Akashic Records nor " " but something ontologically a step or two after, which brings me back to this:

Where's my next wife? Where is the wife bearing my magic key?Who am I? Of course I know. I exist to understand everything. I exist to reach the ideal. The logos of the world. The alpha and the omega. The absolute laws of creation.The Root. Thus I couldn't go on without knowing who I am.

The logos, the beginning and end of everything in the created world. These are the absolute laws of the created world rooted in immediate participation with the Akashic Records. They are already actual operations as absolute as they are, within the created world—governing the created world from long since the immemorial of time to the end of creation. Magicians come to know everything about this world:

"The origination of all things—a record of the beginning and end of everything. To be connected to it would be to 'discern' the end of everything there is.

It is because when they attain these uncreated laws from which miracles are produced, they can see the beginning and end of everything altogether as an actuality. But unlike the Akashic Records, which are purely just actual—they see the actuality of all things to the degree that the uncreated law determines an aspect of the created world from its beginning and end. Which is why above, they say to be connected to the Akashic Records—of which these uncreated laws (viz mysteries) do—allows one to 'discern' the end or actuality of a particular actual determination of difference (as it progresses from potentiality to actuality).

Zero-in-the-finite

All Magicians can be demonstrated to 'perceive' all things as actuality, not to the degree of the Akashic Records. If by 'perceive' we don't mean actuality as an object, as I've covered, but a state whereby 'perceived' and 'perceiver' are not separate—basically the reintegration of the finite into the infinite. As covered earlier, whereby I basically discussed the process of reaching True Magic as unifying your consciousness and zero into an unbroken whole.

To make it easier to understand, let me give you an example with the Mystic Eyes of Death. It is thought that this ability is greater than them all, to some greater than True Magic—but both of them operate on the same principle:

“Magecraft, Soujuurou, is basically a set of common rules.Systems of magecraft like Runes or Kabbalah are simply different subjects within that framework... Think of them as standard textbooks that explain how the world works. As long as you possess the proper textbook, anyone can become a magus depending on their lineage.

If we define mediated knowledge as knowledge that is co-dependent on another type of knowledge as mediated knowledge, then magecraft as representional knowledgewhile magecraft is a set of common rules that one can find in standard texts representing how the world is as mediated by humanity from the Root.

But using Magic is a different matter. Magic isn't a copied text derived from the Swirl of the Root the way magecraft is. Rather, it is something directly connected to the Swirl of the Root itself.

Then, True Magic is called 'ultimate knowledge', because it is unmediated/immediate knowledge. Magecraft is but a copy that explains the world from within the world, and its rules—True Magic bypasses all of those intermediary steps to participate directly in the Swirl of the Root (as the Akashic Records). We know True Magic is not just arbitrary blessings, but uncreated and actual ways the Swirl of the Root (as the Akashic Records) determines all of reality. That magecraft is mediated knowledge of reality, as experienced by the finite through contingency on the Swirl of the Root. Whilst True Magic is a necessary way, reality is already determined at a deeper level of causality and knowledge that is already complete in itself.

That will be shown right after I emphasise the contingency of magecraft first:

Magecraft is nothing more than making use of the blessings bestowed by this sun.

Magecraft is making use of the blessings already derived from a root cause—and for now, let's call it 'the Sun'.

In the human world, for example, what's prevalent is magecraft.

At its core, magecraft is the imitation of natural phenomena

And magecraft uses mystery contingently, which is why mysteries can decrease and increase in the human world. Because mysteries, such as magecraft, are an imitation of the natural world:

—or the compensation paid in exchange for them. We can study mysteries, put them into practice, and reproduce them, but we cannot create mystery itself.

Or rather, imitating is the compensation to be paid in the created world, because magecraft can only operate contingently. People study mysteries that are already received from somewhere else, because they cannot create mysteries themselves.

Well, perhaps after enough research one might eventually reach that point. But there is a great barrier standing there—a kind of limiter that human knowledge simply cannot surpass.

But because all of magecraft and even human knowledge is derivative and an imitation of the Sun itself, only a copy derived from the Root. No matter how in-depth your research becomes, there's a limit to human knowledge that it simply can't surpass, no matter what. A limit that prevents mankind from creating mysteries, and keeps them perpetually beneath, according to their power, they cannot reach beyond this limit with their uncreated finite or rather contingent, power alone.

And True Magic is the act of wielding the sun itself.

True Magic is mystery itself, to which all other mysteries under magecraft are but secondary and derivative imitations of its reality.

If one could see it, touch it, and understand it, then even the very word 'impossible' could be rewritten. Its name varies depending on the tradition, but in the end, it's probably the place where God resides.

As a result, it is only in touching the Root and grasping it as magician (logos), that the word 'impossible' becomes rewritten. Because this limit of knowledge is bypassed by grounding in a deeper continuity and causal power.

The actual reason why True Magic is associated with miracles, is not because in itself it is just 'a miracle'.

Magecraft has a miraculous process, but the result is always what is naturally possible in the created and differentiated world. True Magic is miraculous in process and in result. Remember, magecraft represents the world to the degree that created beings mediate it (abstract it, separate it into differentiated components and broken down into different parts), rather than directly coming into contact with what the world is as determined by the Swirl of the Root directly, without distortion of duality and separation.

One of the few commandments my grandfather gave me:the source of Magic itself. Never divulge anything about the Root—not its nature, not what I learned of it, not even my own impressions. And yet, if it is my sister's last wish, then perhaps I owe her at least that much: my thoughts on it.

A commandment for a Magician, that having come into contact with the Swirl of the Root, one should represent it as anything but itself. They should not divulge anything about it, not its nature, not what one learned, not even their impressions. Even a step between the Root and the subject in contact with it, like 'representation' would be a distortion that deviates already into indirect participation with the ultimate ground.

"I have a confession to make."Aoko's voice carried through the blue hallway."To be honest, I don't remember anything."Aoko gave a blunt reply, and brought her arm down like a bolt of lightning.

And even if you tried as Aoko tried for her system, they ultimately come to find that the operations of True Magic have come into contact with the Root. Are not things that remain as "represented" or "mediated" altogether in their memory, so even in coming into contact with the Root and 'understanding it', 'gaining ultimate knowledge' and 'mystery of mysteries'—these things remain incorruptible by the subject in contact.

This is actually linked to what Touko says in Kara no Kyoukai, that the further one learns, in order to mediate the world. The further you stray away from the Root:

The more we learn, the farther we stray. The Root is no different—a vortex that can only be approached in ignorance, in a pure state of unknowing. Yet in ignorance, you cannot perceive it—so the pursuit is meaningless.

That approaching the Root is like approaching "a swirl" (pay attention to the "a swirl" instead of the Swirl part, it's gonna be important) that can only be approached in ignorance: a pure state of unknowing. Stripping yourself of any presuppositions, impressions, and meanings about reality, because the true nature of reality can only be accessed when such intermediary steps are stripped.

All magical systems originally disseminated throughout the world flow from this Swirl. Those systems are nothing more than narrow streams. Because they stem from the same root—the Swirl of the Root itself—they are ultimately fragments that have split off into things like astrology, alchemy, Kabbalah, and so on. In the end, they all carry the same origin in their hearts: Taoist immortality practices, runes, and countless others—there's no end to listing them.Researchers who have touched upon this... It is because they were able to imagine what lies at the peak. The ultimate purpose of a magician is to make the self transparent. To reach the truth—there is no goal other than this.Those who have preserved only their sense of self... They are the collective that is forever unfulfilled.

Different traditions have a different name for this goal, all of them from kabbalah, Daoism and countless more. The goal of 'purifying' the self, to make it naked and transparent to the walls of mediation and dualising all created beings, to touch upon what lies at the summit of all things.

Anatta-vijñāna — The Sublime Emptiness of MindAccording to the Dharma, pure emptiness is a state of absolute freedom. In this realm, all dualities simply vanish. The mind, in its intrinsic clarity, grasps the universal Dharma and penetrates the pure essence of existence, exactly as it is. The sky reveals itself as vast, colors blend into delicate shades. Standing at the misty boundary, your noble figure gazes upon the eternal wandering of the Stars.

In Buddhism, for example, attaining this is regarded as attaining to 'pure emptiness', reaching a state of absolute freedom altogether. Dualities and separation vanish, and the dharma are grasped alongside the pure essence of existence, without distortions mediated and representational and just about any category of human thought that hinges on dualizing of the subject and object basically.

Connecting to the Root: Illumination by the Root's light and the ineffable mysteries

Both the Root, as the Akashic Records and the Root as Logos are called the same thing, the Swirl of the Root. And the reason for this connects a bit to the fact that there's nothing that stands between the Root and the subject of contact, not even mediation or representation. That is, there's no 'barrier' that introduces an intermediary step and boundary between the subject in contact and itself, and there are other pointers for this:

First, there was the sheer scale of the damage inflicted on ordinary society during the Holy Grail War. Next, the assassination of a Master dispatched by the Mage's Association.And finally, the appearance of what the Association's instruments had detected as a "Swirl of the Root."...Well, the first two could at least be blamed on Kirei as well. Since Kirei was the supervisor appointed by the Mage's Association, there was room for excuses.But there was no getting around the third.The appearance of a gate opened by the Grail. A ritual to reach the Root was something that should have been carried out under the Mage's Association's direct supervision.So from the Association's point of view, it was hard to overstate how much of a war criminal he looked like.One day, without warning, in a remote corner of the Far East, they observed the manifestation of something that appeared to be a "Swirl of the Root"...

When a gate to the Root is presumed to be opened by the Mages Association, and they refer to this gate as the 'manifestation' of a Swirl of the Root.

Which seems strange at first, because the Swirl of the Root is singular, "the Swirl" part is a singular that is used to describe the Root as a place where "all causes swirl". So in the Root, even if we say figuratively causes swirl, it is the singular unified reality where that single 'swirl' preeminently contains all causes. But here, instead of the swirl, what we get is a swirl. Almost as if to deliberately suggest a relationship between the Swirl of the Root and the path to it (of which True Magic is too), as if that of a single unified reality as a light that illuminates everything, comparatively to the path, which is like variations in its wavelengths. All of these are unified and undivided in the Akashic Records, but in the logos within the created world express [absolute] different and individual ways of the same undivided actuality. You can separate them individually within the created world as:

Even then, you wouldn't have imagined that you, a True Ancestor, would be defeated by a human. You were too late in recognizing magic, the rule outside the rules. That's why you were surpassed by the old man of jewels.

A rule that is outside the rules, a principle outside of principles.

"Before, I told you that magecraft has no limits, right? What that meant was that, so long as it remains within the range human knowledge can reach, it has no limits. Magic, by contrast, is full of limits, or rather, it can only accomplish one single mechanism, but that is only natural. Because it is a single point of light, excluded from the concepts of this universe. "

I used light to represent it, because the True Magic is likened to a single focal point of light that is excluded from the concepts of the created universe. It is limited in range by much, relative to magecraft, because magecraft has no limits within human knowledge. But True Magic only achieves one mechanism, even when that mechanism is far deeper than principle than the common ones. A single point of light that bypasses the need for representation, mediation and conceptualisation, but direct participation in how reality is ordered to thereafter be mediated.

Light is an even better choice of demonstration, because Type Moon uses this symbolically to demonstrate the relation between the Root and itself. Because when Aoko used True Magic, the light of the Root, which illuminates within that 'nothingness', illuminated within Aoko, in the movie, that same light within the Root. Is symbolically shown to 'light' up like lightning throughout and returning to being at the centre, and when it lights up, it gives a glimpse of many dead bodies within that Shiki sees. And then it is nothingness once again, almost to say the light reveals what is implicit undivided actuality but has yet to differentiate in unfolding.

Since True Magic is likened to both handling of the Sun and light itself, it expresses an individual unmediated principle. Then it appears to hold true, to Type Moon, that the Akashic Records are compared to True Magic. Is just the unity of all of these mechanisms at a far deeper level, the level of undivided actualities. And from the side of True Magic, the light is the actualities that determine the differentiated world—already within the differentiated world.

Among the imperfect languages allowed to man, one had to admit there was nothing that could contain what they saw. It was said there was once a Sealing Designated magus who used the Unified Language (Master of Babel), words which allowed no mistake, to which the entire world - living or not - could not but obey. Her _ was much the same, a purity that reached into the depths of the Root itself.It wasn't a simple loss for words. To those magi who had been moments earlier pushing themselves to their absolute limit, engaging in a contest of souls that overshadowed any other kind of conflict, it was all they could do to just remain standing.

And so, these miracles, even as they express themselves in the world, cannot be exhausted by any imperfect allowed to man. It is『』 that reaches into the depths of the Root, as much as one can within the created world. So as to overcome the barriers of mediation, representation and just about anything that leads them to the presupposition that there's anything between them and the Root. That is why when miracles like that manifest, man can do nothing but remain still in awe, witnessing something that they cannot put words into. Not because they are at a loss for them, but because to be silent is all they can do.

Magics causal power - timeless and (already) actual/complete determinations
It turns out things of this nature, like True Magic and the unified language, are causal regimes that cannot be exhausted by finite language:

The mage claimed that even I couldn't kill words. Yet, even words will someday perish. All things fade, vanish, and succumb to death.

Is because words of such languages have a beginning and end too, and mysteries like the unified language and True Magic—associated with logos as what determines how the world unfolds from its beginning and end as grounded in the Root. Are ultimately outside of, and so cannot be measured or exhausted by meaning and language; they are the ones determining such things that are derived from such.

This is supported by Aoko using the unified language, was capable of cancelling the magecraft attacks through the language's transcendence over it. Which isn't even through power nullification, because to nullify an attack requires the attack to be realised first, then nullified, and thereafter unrealised, or at least doesn't take effect. Herein, the attacks don't just 'not register', the meaning of them isn't even registered before the attack:

With a single word, Aoko nullified the runes, dissolving them before they could be given meaning. The power of Aoko's words had surpassed the magical energy of Touko's rune magecraft. - Mahoyo - Chapter 12

It has the same purity that reaches into the Root like True Magic, a language that directly connects to the Root with no intermediary steps. There's no 'potentiality' being 'actualised' of the attack at its level, before the attack can be defended. No, it is actual first in reality that the attack became nullified, because it is nullified before it even has meaning in reality. Because we're already at zero, there's no separation between the Root and the subject. So there's no distinction between the beginning and end, as those categories are measured by created beings closed under the Root's ontology.

Further supporting evidence is prevalent in fact, True Magic incantations use this language:

"By the name Blue, I speak for order. Hear me."A censuring voice told her to stop.At the edges of oblivion, her hand touched the true form of Magic.

Since the true form of True Magic can only be realised by incantations through this language, a direct articulation and declaration to reality:

"Five timeless words: Order has fallen to ruinWhat was declared had come to be. In this time and place alone, the Fifth Magic made itself known.

Expressing the timeless words that declare and reveal True Magic to the created world. The incantations don't travel in time, because to say they do already places yet another intermediary step between the subject and the Root, but the contrary holds, so its incantations are timeless.

When it came to True Magic, however...If the Aozaki Magic was anything like Alice Kuonji's fairy-tale monsters, then mage strength was not a part of the equation. At this point, it was Touko against Magic itself. And there was no winning against Truth. The transcendence and idiosyncrasy of True Magic rendered things like magecraft irrelevant. - Mahoyo - Chapter 12

This is why it is said that there is absolutely no winning against True Magic, the lack of an intermediary step between the subject and the Swirl of the Root. Makes it so that a battle against a Magician is no different from a battle against the truth itself. It does not discriminate between the truth and the being expressing the truth; its idiosyncratic nature to mediated and dual categories renders the magecraft completely irrelevant.

Nevermind the lightning Atram had attempted to unleash, even the storm clouds that had choked out the night sky had been driven away. The Weather Manipulation Magecraft brought about by dozens of magi working in concert was stripped away like it was no more than a thin sheet of paper.That which belongs, to where it belongs.When that ultimate 『』 had appeared, all unnatural, imperfect magecraft returned to nothing.

Which is why when it declares itself, magecraft itself becomes stripped away like it is nothing but a sheet of paper. It returns it all, as if it were unnatural, alongside the mediated categories consisting within, it returns this all to nothing.

The causal power of True Magic: and its limits for better or for worse
Neither higher nor lower power, Neither more nor less power: Simply Grounding Conditions

To begin with, True Magic is not 'more power', and so a battle against it doesn't delineate into a contest of 'infinitely more powerful' against 'infinitely less powerful'. Because the Magics are not graded or stratified, there's no 'higher' than it or 'lower' than it between them:

Nevermind the magi gathered, even the animals and insects of the forest - no, even the earth and rain felt the impact of that essence. If evolution meant the optimal adaptation of one to their environment, then it was a conclusion of form and measure that threatened the end of the world itself.

We're just outright told that it isn't just 'more measure'. But the conclusion of measure itself, the power of the supernatural, is graded as already a representation or mediative description, already of which True Magic resists altogether.

Since I explained that in the created world, derivative mysteries fluctuate in power. There's no section better to re-elucidate that once more, because, on the contrary, True Magic transcends the measure of mystery.

Many old things lost their power, a few new things began to bud. As human knowledge grew, the mysteries which had grown ripe declined, and bit by bit the universal law on this planet transitioned into the laws of physics we have today.

Concealment as corruptibility to mystery or degradation of mystery; at least for mankind, predominantly began after the Age of Gods. Wherein mystery stopped being a universal law within the universe at a material law level, and what became the new law was the laws of physics.

"No. I don't." Touko said this as she crushed out her cigarette in the ashtray with a hiss."If it becomes a battle between magi, then it can't be helped. But outside of that, I wouldn't use it even when I'm alone." "So then, in places where nobody can see you, you do whatever you want, Touko-san?" I still couldn't grasp the full picture of what Touko was trying to say, but I could vaguely understand her point. If concealment and isolation are fundamental to magecraft itself, then it made sense that magi would never openly demonstrate magecraft in front of ordinary people. "Magecraft, too, was originally magic. It's still a predetermined power drawn from the Root that serves as its source. Suppose there exists something called a floating Mystery (shinpi). Let's say it possesses ten units of power. If only one person knows of it, that person can utilize all ten units of that power. But if two people know of it, then it is divided into five and five between them. See? The power has weakened. The wording may differ, but I'd say this is one of the fundamental principles governing everything in this world." "Mystery, you see, derives its significance from remaining a Mystery. Concealing it is the very essence of magecraft. Once the true nature of a magecraft has been revealed, then no matter how many supernatural techniques it employs, it can no longer be called a Mystery. Kara no Kyoukai - Chapter 5: Paradox Spiral (Part 1)/ 195

So normal mysteries are graded then, we can talk about them as having 'more power' than the other, because in the current context of the material universe. Even mystery is mediated, if one or two people know of its power us divided between equivalent amongst those people.
The measurement of potency supernatural abilities is measured by one thing: Mystery

Once the true nature of a magecraft has been revealed, then no matter how many supernatural techniques it employs, it can no longer be called a Mystery.It degenerates into nothing more than a method.And the moment that happens, that magecraft immediately becomes weaker.""...Well, yes.

The law of mystery has it that, once the true nature of a magecraft is revealed, then no matter how many supernatural techniques it employs, it can no longer be called a mystery. It ceases to be the manifestation of an unmediated actuality and degenerates into nothing more than a method, something that can be represented and spoken of by human knowledge.

The word comes from Greek and means 'to close off.'It refers to closure, concealment, and self-completion."

This is because when 'knowledge' is at its most immediate, and without mediation and representation distorting, it reflects self-completion through concealment: it becomes self-standing or self-sufficient. It is the same in effect or, at the very least, extremely co-extensive with, for example, what dictum of magi is:

Hmph, saying it out loud like this really proves how inadequate words are [こうして口にしてみると言葉は本当によくないな]. Even terms like 'zero' or 'origin' come with unnecessary colors [ゼロも根源にも余分な色がついていて] that obscure the true meaning they’re meant to convey [せっかくの意味を閉ざしてしまう]." Choosing my words carefully, I narrow my eyes in thought.

That adding words and description to the Swirl of the Root, as experienced like Origin and 'Zero', comes with unnecessary colours that obscure the true meaning they initially intend to confer.

If we were to assign it a provisional reading, it would be ‘kara’ (emptiness/origin). How it’s interpreted is up to each individual, but to put it simply and clearly, it’s the ‘Swirl of the Root.’ However, since the ‘Swirl of the Root’ already exists as a named concept, it is, after all, something distinct from 『』.

In Kara no Kyoukai special pamphlet, this is expressed as an oxymoron. Proposing that how the Swirl of the Root is interpreted is entirely up to each individual, the variations in differences crystallise into different traditions, representing different interpretations of the same ultimate ground. The oxymoron being that, in spite of these interpretations, in spite of being universally called 'the Swirl of the Root' by the Mages Association.

The very fact that it is a named concept that already exists, it is ultimately different from the ultimate ground. Again, they acknowledge that it can be interpreted as, but what is denied is not that these interpretations point towards the same ultimate truth. Rather, what is being denied is the necessity of words, because the ultimate ground cannot be mediated or represented without institutionalising it into duality and differentiation.

Remember this is not just describing the Root but even participation in the Root, and as we've already seen, even the True Magic is credited with being『』or ineffable. This isn't to say True Magic is the Swirl of the Root per se, it is the opposite, actually. It is to say because the Root-in-itself (including the Akashic Records) is incomprehensible, it can only be directly connected to—if and only if—the mode of apprehension of the subject doesn't exhaust it or distort it. And how can it or must it be connected to without distorting and exhausting its undivided actuality? The answer is immediate awareness, call this awareness access to laws, knowledge or mysteries, it makes no difference, for these are after-images seeking to explain these things in the simplest humanly way possible.

Put simply, you could call it ‘ultimate knowledge.’ Though calling it “ultimate” imposes a standard and reduces it to something finite, so the term isn’t quite correct. It’s just the easiest way to understand it.

I mean, Touko herself is very careful enough to keep note of the fact that the "ultimate knowledge"—that we know by now is what is another way of referring to the mysteries of True Magic. Is something that, in itself, is not entirely true of the words it wishes to convey. It imposes a standard on it, it already seeks to "represent" it, ultimately only to describe what is already finite and not true to it.

So if mystery in magecraft is a measure of how concealed and self-complete something is, then True Magic does not possess such characteristics in a manner that magecraft does. As it is magecraft that does so, by its derivative relation to true mysteries like those of True Magic.

True Magic is neither measurable nor immeasurable; it is simply irreducible in virtue of its incommensurability from division. It cannot be applied to 'measure' or 'extension' of mystery, because magecraft and created/derivative mysteries are where 'measure' and 'extension' of supernatural arises from:

What Aoko inherited was Magic, the greatest Mystery of all.

Because these are already the pinnacle of mystery altogether, the furthest mystery can go. I mean, it does make sense logically after all, if they had anything beyond, even amongst each other, then all of the incomprehensible and so forth radical statements would've been poetic fluff, but that's not the case.

The powdery snow fluttered. The atmosphere crackled around the girl.---This Magic transcended the Mysteries.The gateway to miracles that eluded human knowledge was preparing to make its appearance on the snowfield.

It is simply a matter of consistency that True Magic transcended the mysteries of measure. Hence why Type Moon writers oscillate between 'it is a mystery beyond all mysteries' and 'it transcends mysteries'.

Limits of True Magic: No, it cannot do 'anything' nor override anything.

The things above do raise interesting questions. How does a battle between two Magicians pan out? Do they cancel each other out? Does one, by its 'superiority', cancel out the other? But how can it be if these are already the pinnacle of mysteries? How can one be greater than the other? The short is: they aren't greater than one another.
The long answer is, setting the fact that it True Magic transcends causal power as "measure", for to say it is higher already places it in a mediated duality with what is 'lower' properly speaking. It doesn't mean any battle against a Magician is an instant loss or so, or even that Magics would cancel each other out, not even that one would overpower the other by its 'superiority'. The limits of Magic make clear one thing: the difference between it as a particular expression of an actuality without potency and the Akashic Records as universal ground, and purely undivided actuality.
If I had to differentiate between the two in the simplest way possible, I would say the Akashic Records are unchanging and perfect. And as Pure Actuality, it doesn't 'act' within the universe in any conventional sense—because its existence is its causal power.

Every phenomenon has a fundamental originating cause—an absolute One.It is both the beginning of this universe and its endpoint.There exists there something that has ‘recorded everything.’Though ‘recorded’ isn’t quite right—because it simply exists, it can’t really be called information. It merely is.It has no will of its own, nor could it possess any sense of direction. It only pours forth causes endlessly—something like a primordial vortex at the root of all things.

This is why Type Moon can suggest that the Akashic Records cannot be 'called' anything: not will, not direction, not information. But pure existence, it simply is and no more. Yet this 'thing' that has 'nothing' and cannot even be called anything is the same thing that outpours causes?

The reason is that the fact that it simply is or exists in the purest sense, stripped of division, that it can outpour and ground all things.

It is the cause of everything [すべての原因であり], the zero [ゼロ] that set all phenomena and events [現象・事象] into motion.

Which is why when they say, they don't even say it 'acts to create'. But it is a precondition that sets all phenomena and events into motion; it moves all things without being moved. So it cannot be that the Akashic Records are actually active, nor operates whatsoever, within the universe directly.

True Magic is a finite instantiation of non-mediated participation in a singular grounding actuality that exists as irreducible operations of reality. Reality before it comes to be mediated, divided and separated.

A coordinate regarded as the origin of all events. That is the “Swirl of the Root”……………the long-cherished aspiration of all magi; the beginning and the end of all things, a divine seat that records everything in this world and can also create everything within it.

This is why, unlike True Magic as we will see, it acts as a universal 'cause' viz its actuality. It brings forth all things, and True Magic is what operates as principles that govern the universe, grounded in or still in direct participation with the Akashic Records.

"Before, I told you that magecraft has no limits, right? What that meant was that, so long as it remains within the range human knowledge can reach, it has no limits. Magic, by contrast, is full of limits, or rather, it can only accomplish one single mechanism, but that is only natural. Because it is a single point of light, excluded from the concepts of this universe. "Mahoyo

So its limits are pretty implicit, despite being excluded from the concepts of the universe. True Magics can only govern one operation of the created world, only one. Now that operation may have several effects, but its 'radical' idiosyncrasies and transcendence only apply to the domain of operation it governs.

Take, for example, the alleged proof of Avalon being a greater miracle beyond all else; the supporting evidence taken for this is purely detached from the context of the explanation:

Avalon (The Everdistant Utopia)The "scabbard" that forms a pair with the Holy Sword Excalibur. Its possessor does not age, and any injuries they sustain are rapidly healed.By invoking its True Name to release it, it disassembles into countless fine components and deploys in midair, shielding its owner from all forms of interference. Once it enters a state of absolute protection, harming the owner becomes virtually impossible. It wards off even interference from parallel worlds brought about by the Second Magic.

Because it is in fact said that Avalon can block interferences from parallel worlds brought forth by Second Magic. So the question is not whether or not it is stated, but what it means for this to be stated:

It wards off even interference from parallel worlds brought about by the Second Magic. This "absolute defense," capable of repelling even attacks utilizing True Magic, is in itself a type of True Magic. It is impossible for anyone to harm the King who rests in the land of Avalon.When the "Everdistant Utopia" unleashes its power, not even the King of Heroes can bring harm to Saber.

The context of the 'can block attacks using True Magic' is in regard to Avalon in itself being a type of True Magic, first things first, so both attacks are of roughly the same rank. And secondarily and most importantly, it refers to what I'd like to call the 'limits of True Magic'. In which case, Second Magic cannot interfere with Avalon because, to begin with, Avalon is not part of its domain of operations.

Yes, that is simply so; there's a huge discrepancy between Second Magic and Avalon here. Avalon retains its capacity to block it, because the operations of parallel worlds are already what Avalon is intended to block. As a realm removed from the laws and mediated categories of the Planet, so it is not that the realm of the fairies itself is True Magic. But the bounded field that manifests, to block attacks—the Absolute Defence aspect—is the True Magic, just to set that aside as well.

Another huge discrepancy, especially of the True Magics in the modern era, the five Magicians. Is that the operations of True Magic or what True Magic supervenes over, are relative to the domain in which the subject who attained it resides? I mean, the five magics, for example, are the greatest mysteries of human history or the human order domain.

They exist in this sense, especially in a way like singularity events that govern primitive operations of reality and even bring significant change to it once attained by the subject.

The order goes as follows: In the beginning, the first magic changed everything, the Second Magic as proof and operations of Parallel Worlds recognised 'many' from solidarity. The Third Magic presented a glimpse of the Future, of which we are shown to be something like the servantverse, where everyone is immortal through the Third Magic and are servants (pure souls).

It is unclear so far what the Fourth and Fifth are about.

The conclusion is, a separate key for the Akashic Records from the Root and the tier will go:

The Root remains at Tier 0
The Akashic Records will be High 1-A+ (Type 2)
True Magic High 1-A+ (Type 1)

Note: The next thread by no means will scale the Inner Sea because I deny that the realm in itself is True Magic, but the sheath or the closure or concealment conditions of Avalon are True Magic-like. Not the realm in itself. The next proposal will roughly remain the same, the Reverse Side and Inner Sea proposed for 1-A, but I devised handling it separately to prevent this thread from being clogged with too much information and writing, making it even harder to evaluate.

ShinMaximillion · Jun 27, 2026

BoastJr said:
I just know that someone will upscale Gil to this somehow

Anyways I agree ! Anything for H1A+ Smurfs (sorry Ale)

Only True Magic in-itself scales in relation to the thread, not its fragmented effects to various Mystic Codes and such lol. Gilgamesh won't.

ActuallySpaceMan42 · Jun 27, 2026

Long CRT, and I was basically convinced halfway through, but it just kept going...

Anyway, agree.

ShinMaximillion · Jun 27, 2026

ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
Long CRT, and I was basically convinced halfway through, but it just kept going...

Anyway, agree.

How many staff votes do we require for this to pass again? And thank you for going through it, taking your time. Appreciate it friend.

In a manner of speaking, I thought about adding examples of True Magic types being as explained above, but I guess its a good call I didn't; worrying about the length of the thread. Though, honestly the thread was only this long because it was in a way, intended to distill True Magic for the Type Moon community too overall as well, not just the staff team so yeah.

ActuallySpaceMan42 · Jun 27, 2026

ShinMaximillion said:
How many staff votes do we require for this to pass again? And thank you for going through it and taking your time. Appreciate it friend.

2 more at minimum as long as there is no opposition.

ShinMaximillion · Jun 28, 2026

Can the other mods be tagged just in case?

Just a Random Butler · Jun 28, 2026

ShinMaximillion said:
Can the other mods be tagged just in case?

@Qawsedf234 @DarkDragonMedeus @Celestial_Pegasus @Elizhaa

Vietthai96 · Jun 29, 2026

Root remains tier 0 is fine (idk why this topic get revisited again)

Akashic Records being High 1-A+ (Type 2) is oke

Neutral on True Magic part for now, i still have yet to read that part, and i'm skepticism on scaling

ShinMaximillion · Jun 29, 2026

Vietthai96 said:
Root remains tier 0 is fine (idk why this topic get revisited again)

It wasn't being revised, Ultima said the Root should have two keys separately, for the Akashic Records.

Vietthai96 said:
Neutral on True Magic part for now, i still have yet to read that part, and i'm skepticism on scaling

There's pretty much nothing above True Magic, and it comes immediately after the Akashic Records with not a single intermediary participatory step in between. This topic began in the last thread, because someone else had a conversation with Ultima on the implications of it being "beyond extensionality simpliciter" and being "immediately after the Root/Akashic".

And he said, supposing that was faithful to the source material, then True Magic would either be High 1-A+ or an impossible (to tier presumably) boundary between Tier 0 and High 1-A+:

In theory this would probably fit more into one of the several impossible tiers between High 1-A+ and 0 btw.

To quote him.

Well, properly speaking, the Akashic Records should be Tier 0 and the Root a little above that to begin with, too hehe. But it is better to tag him to see if this has any semblance to what he was talking about; it could be lower. He did ask for a remake thread of the topic of True Magic, specifically setting aside the rest of the yap of the last, and the separation of the Root into two keys, too.

FUNNY ENOUGH, the Mystic Eyes of Death perception are exactly the same rank as True Magic, contrary to the popular belief of them being the only thing that represents what a connection to the Root does. Even to the extent of thinking the ability is Tier 0 lol, we know already because it is one of the mysteries of humanity specifically. Whilst in the Age of Gods, death was an authority that returns you to the underworld. Kurogiri's connection to the Root via unified language is equal to Shiki Ryougi's connection to the Root, which is expressed through her eyes. This doesn't include "Ryougi Shiki"; of course, she outright demonstrably has a better connection to the Root than anyone else whatsoever.

Because the Origin of emptiness connects her closer to the Akashic Records directly, rather than it being through the logos. She says the Mystic Eyes of regular Shiki "catch a glimpse of the Root (Akashic)", which is in line with True Magic expressing exactly one irreducible actuality grounded in the Root, and says "She can see much deeper than that" to the extent that "she may as well be it". We're even told that, because of this, unlike Magicians who can perform exactly one type of unmediated causality that establishes an actuality. Her powers span the entire cosmology, unlike True Magic, which determines aspects of reality irreducibly from its beginning to its end, in paradox spiral, they say:

She's capable of collapsing the entire universe.
Seeing everything altogether, not in a limited sense like magicians, but true omniscience.
She can reduce all of creation to nothingness/the Root.

(Arcueid herself says she's dangerous to her flower garden, aka Avalon) Araya wanted her body for these reasons, so he could return everything to the Root, forcing enlightenment upon everyone, but returning to what he considers Nirvana (which is the Root). We know it holds because the counter force moved to stop this from happening to prevent its collapse. The Mystic Eyes are said to be a limited fragment of that, an aspect of the power to return all things to nothing.

But yeah, besides her, True Magic is the highest thing. She'd probably be High 1-A+ (Type 2), since Origins are in the Akashic, not the Root itself. But her scaling will be uniquely covered by itself last, gotta save the energy for other threads before covering a controversial character like her.

All True Magics do what the Mystic Eyes do, but with respect to a distinct boundary condition they determine. I can give you a few examples to show you that, I was looking to give examples to drive this concept home but didn't want the thread to be too long.

Vietthai96 · Jun 29, 2026

ShinMaximillion said:
It wasn't being revised, Ultima said the Root should have two keys separately, for the Akashic Records.

Well, yeah, i guess, i remember i said somewhere in the past threads that Akashic Records should be High 1-A+ and have its own key, hmmmm

ShinMaximillion said:
There's pretty much nothing above True Magic, and it comes immediately after the Akashic Records

I know that the True Magic is after Akashic Records, you literally need to reach it to obtains True Magic, of course not reach it completely or else you are dissolved into being a part of it, so i can understand if you downscales True Magic from AR. The issue i have is scaling

ShinMaximillion said:
Mystic Eyes of Death

High 1-A+ Shiki Tohno meta? Hmmm

Anyway i will think about True Magic later, also some example would be great, i forgot a lot of Nasuverse thing, ~~and too lazy to read them again~~

ShinMaximillion · Jun 29, 2026

Vietthai96 said:
I know that the True Magic is after Akashic Records, you literally need to reach it to obtains True Magic, of course not reach it completely or else you are dissolved into being a part of it, so i can understand if you downscales True Magic from AR. The issue i have is scaling

Fair concern in a way, I think the difficulty in seeing eye-to-eye here is most likely because of the absence of modal talk. Ultima's initial assessment was:

If it's just a total compression of everything that's possible to conceptualize and then explicate through language into one unified state, which remains yet inferior to the ineffability of the Root (I was informed this is the last stop in the cosmology before the Root), that's High 1-A+, if anything, unless something else goes massively against that.

But if I have to explain in modal talk, I'd say if we treat the Akashic Records as an undivided logical space, wherein all logical possibilities from the Tier 0 (the Root) are resolved into pure actuality. Then True Magic as still 『』is not yet bounded by "possible worlds" so to speak, instead it determines how these possible worlds will be structured as they unfold within the world. In other words, Planet's as carriers of 'fate', so they'd be like the axioms that determine what even is "possible" to begin with, to the degree of possibilities they ground.

Third Magic with Soul, for example, is a precondition for motion under manifestation, Second Magic is a precondition for "parallel worlds", and death is the precondition for "limit of activity". Language altogether is not a thing yet, separation is not a thing yet, and power is not a thing yet. Although the last section was to emphasise that this doesn't make the Magician omnipotent. If you're battling a Second Magician like Zelretch, for example, just be outside of parallel worlds to prevent the advantage he'd have against you.

I say High 1-A+ besides being immediately after a High 1-A+ (Type 2), which, according to Ultima, is in itself grounds to argue for lest it is not faithful to the source material. And besides that, because in modal ontology, axioms of a modal or logical space determine what counts as "possible worlds" to begin with. And on account of High 1-A+ manifesting arbitrarily many possible worlds, as a grounding principle of them. Then, in the same light, True Magic can determine an arbitrary number of possible worlds as they unfold in a structured manner according to the Magics. Since in the Akashic Records, these possibilities are not structured, but unified.

True Magic cannot belong to High 1-A and lower tiers, because it does not belong in the same genus as them to begin with. Everything "higher" in lower tiers from 1-A and up is just a part of the same genus of "qualitative superiority" from the initial baseline 1-A up to the summit of High 1-A. High 1-A+ is a tier for precondition. True Magic cannot be related to as simply "more thing than x" or "higher than x" because even "higher and lower" as I explained would be mediated categories it determines.

This is why it is associated with 『』to begin with, as the conclusion of "measure" as explained in the proposal to begin with.

ShinyHax · Jun 29, 2026

I would have to disagree. Yes, true magic is linked to the Root; however, any Divine Spirit is linked to the Root in exactly the same way—which is precisely why, during the Age of Gods, Magecraft was synonymous with "Magic." If we accept that premise, then any Divine Spirit—including those summoned as Servants—would have to be accorded that same level.

DaReaperMan · Jun 29, 2026

ShinyHax said:
I would have to disagree. Yes, true magic is linked to the Root; however, any Divine Spirit is linked to the Root in exactly the same way—which is precisely why, during the Age of Gods, Magecraft was synonymous with "Magic." If we accept that premise, then any Divine Spirit—including those summoned as Servants—would have to be accorded that same level.

Get permission to post here. Staff thread means you gotta bug red, green, or purple people for perms to post.

ShinyHax · Jun 29, 2026

DaReaperMan said:
Get permission to post here. Staff thread means you gotta bug red, green, or purple people for perms to post.

Sorry

Vietthai96 · Jun 30, 2026

Well, Shinyhax did mention what i have issue with, the scaling, i can understand the logic behind True Magic is High 1-A+ (Type 1) and what Ultima said, the issue is a lot of thing was compared to True Magic which could cause a lot of problem. Iirc Medea spartial magic in FSN, her Servant form, was stated to be close to True Magic, Jeweled Sword literally utilise Second Magic, etc...

ShinMaximillion · Jun 30, 2026

I would have to disagree. Yes, true magic is linked to the Root; however, any Divine Spirit is linked to the Root in exactly the same way—which is precisely why, during the Age of Gods, Magecraft was synonymous with "Magic."

Not a single one of the premises in the entire proposal was addressed. I guess this is gonna be a story of my life as a Type-Moon scaler. Time to retire, I guess.

Cute response, really, you did your best! The equivalent of True Magic in the Age of Gods is authority and nothing more. This is not a secret, it's already included in the thread when I say gods are naturally connected to the Root and "one with the universe".

ShinyHax said:
Magecraft was synonymous with "Magic."

This is why you should understand the contextual relevance of statements before throwing them around. I thought this story would've been made clear with how the last thread went. I already stated I won't be bothering with stuff from the last thread.

Magecraft from the Age of Gods was not synonymous with True Magic:

“The magecraft from the Age of the Gods allows people to directly access the authority of Divine Spirits. And since Divine Spirits are close to the Root, mages won’t have to search for the Root anymore.” My mentor explained.

The context of that statement is that magecraft in the Age of Gods allows people to directly access the authority of the Divine Spirit, and Divine Spirits are the ones who were connected to the Root.

Heartless’ goal was the creation of a god for mages; I had just given the attendees of the Grand Roll the gist of Heartless’ plans to reach that goal.... “Interesting.” McDonell said, nodding twice and clasping together his hands. “A god that exists only for mages… if he succeeds in creating it, we will not have to seek the Root anymore. Isn’t that a wonderful proposition?”

The entire plot of El Melloi case files volumes 9 and 10 was to recreate a new Divine Spirit so it could help them usher the world back to the Age of Gods. Like, lol?

Their magecraft, on the other hand, directly connected with the Root and Divine Spirits—no, the gods themselves.” My mentor said, confirming the difference between mages in modern times and in the Age of the Gods, which had only been hinted at until now.

They even reify "directly connected to the Root" to "no the gods themselves"

“We only know how to fool the world. They had the power to rewrite it however they wish. That is how powerful Divine Spirits are. Of course, they could only wield a fragment of the gods’ powers, but they were still far more powerful than we can ever aspire to be

And would look at that! Right after that, they say fragments of the gods' powers, fragments: fragments of the actual power connected to the Root.

Some of their spells are similar to the Ten-Count spells we use to deceive the world, but they are still fundamentally different. You could say that we are entire dimensions behind them. They were capable of changing the world with a single word by simply invoking the gods.”

That fragment just happened to be "entire dimensions" above modern magecraft, so they say. They invoke gods to do this; they aren't directly connected to the Root; it is still mediated by gods who are actually connected to the Root.

That is why these are fragments, brother; what are you talking about, really and fragments that are already a few intermediary steps behind an immediate connection to the Root. Which isn't even depicted as "higher power", but a transcendence of mystery-as-measure.

Funny you mention AOG magecraft too, because the primordial runes are an example of it.

Da Vinci
"At any rate, the Primordial Runes are powerful stuff."
Da Vinci
"According to Norse myth, Odin made most of the world out of Ymir, with the exception of the runes."
"No, the runes were a different matter: Odin discovered them after offering up his own life. Their shapes contain the depths of the world itself."

They contain the depths of the world in shapes, so rather than being a manuscript to read about how the world works. The latter is relevant to the modern magecraft; the primordial runes are not read, just exercised as already contained pre-existing effects within themselves.

But importantly, this is above modern magecraft but logically not True Magic level silly willy goosy. To begin with, logically speaking, there are already steps between the supernatural effect and the subject exercising it.

Subject - > primordial rune (effect) - > effect in the world

So it is immediately unlike True Magic, but to drive this home. Let's look at whether or not this fits with the source material, as if it wasn't clear enough from the proposal that you avoided directly responding to. We're told primordial runes are not True Magic, despite being magecraft, but rather are "closer to True Magic than to Magecraft"

I love this statement for this especially, because of the careful choice of words Type Moon always upholds, but seems to have its mark missed, I guess. And it is that instead of saying "closer to True Magic simpliciter", they say "closer to True Magic than Magecraft".

Now, I don't know if you have experience with that discipline, but formally (in logic) speaking, the expression "Closer to True Magic" is of a different logical form than "closer to True Magic(x) than Magecraft

". Because these two statements have different truth-conditions.

To satisfy the latter, the state of affairs that must be obtained is further from y than from x, rather than the former, which directly speaks to the 'closeness' of x to another thing, like the primordial runes.

Da Vinci
"No, wait. I forgot about the Primordial Runes! The ones Odin created that served as a magecraft.

Oh, but wait.. Wait, there's more. Not only do they reject this as True Magic, but they also explicitly say this is magecraft—the magecraft of the Age of Gods. The difference between True Magic and Magecraft, even in the Age of Gods, would've been obvious if you bothered to read Case Files Volumes 9 and 10 instead of looking for statements to quote without knowing the context.

You didn't seriously think I came here guns blazing without considering everything you've said, did you? Well, unless you thought you came prepared with just isolated quotes, oof.

It is often said simply that "there are five Magics," but that number does not encompass the entirety of "effects comparable to Magic." As there are numerous examples within the story, the world also contains many Mystic Codes and creatures that are "Magic given form." At the extreme, there are even cases where there is no fixed shape, and existence is found solely within "movement."
Fate/Complete Material III
A prime example of this is likely the secret sword technique Tsubame Gaeshi unleashed by Sasaki Kojirou, the Assassin. This is a certain-kill technique in which blades trace separate trajectories to rend the target, achieving an effect of perfect simultaneity on the level of Magic. In terms of magecraft, this is referred to as the "Multi-Dimensional Refraction Phenomenon," and it can be said to realize the Second Magic, "Operation of Parallel Worlds," albeit in a limited capacity.

Type Moon makes a distinction between True Magic as access to grounding conditions and True Magic effects. True Magic effects exercises one or a few effects that come from actual True Magic, they are also fragments of True Magic. Kojiro's Tsubame Gaeshi (super cool technique tbh), for example, uses the principle of Second Magic to treat time as simultaneity in actuality. Since exercises of actuality are what True Magic does.

It allows him to send three different slashes from three different directions, simultaneously in a single moment. That is to say, there's no gap in time between all three slashes. But he can only manifest three possibilities simultaneously with this slash, unlike Zelretch, an actual Second Magician who exercises operations of all parallel worlds, just to be clear, they say an infinite number of parallel worlds.

Do these things logically look the same to you? I love how none of these effects requires you to be connected to the Root. Because Reality Marbles are an example of this:

Furthermore, the magecraft "Reality Marble," which rewrites reality through the caster's mental landscape, is also regarded as a miraculous technique approaching Magic. Though temporary, the number of magi capable of wielding this Grand Magecraft, which alters the world, is exceedingly few.

And they mention not only Reality Marbles as a miracle that approaches True Magic, but also that it is only an effect of it; they even mention the grand magecraft category as an example of this. And brother, grand magecraft is what Ciel 'technically' used to kill Red Arcueid and completely obliterate her body due to Arcueid raising the rank of the city to her level. After she absorbed enough power to rewrite entire Planet altogether, lmao, this isn't even True Magic level, but it can take out an Arcueid who'd put nasty hands on servants and divine spirits servants lock in brother. The same Arcueid who was:

Distorting all space-time by just gathering her energy.
Performed a Marble Phantasm of the largest scale of all time, even over other True Ancestors.
Literally was swiss-cheesing the entire human universe into 2D, pressing them alongside the time of the human universe itself into a sheet of paper/2D.

Literally nobody feats-wise has ever done this in Type Moon, and they still lost through the process of grand magecraft. What are we doing? Have you ever wondered why gods are bound by the authority of fate, even when they are 'stronger' than the gods of fate itself, like Urd? Have you ever wondered why gods stay dead when the authority of the underworld forbids their return? Matter of FACT, have you ever wondered why the mother of all creation and the highest deity of Mesopotamia could not defy the laws of the underworld as well? How do you think a human like Zelretch defeated Crimson Moon, whom humanity could not imagine a single beast even near his power, no matter how much they wished for? Dude massacred the collective effort of villagers trying to fathom his power, until he got bored the next morning and revived Merem, who was used as a fuel source to manifest those wishes with a kiss.

Upon the continent, in the countries of Western Europe, the influence of the Holy Church expands.The Thaumaturgical Association declines.The ravages of the battle against Crimson Moon are vast.The winter of thaumaturgy. Lord El-Melloi II Case Files material: Secret File -File 02: Chronology of the Clock Tower

Literally, the fight against Crimson Moon in the EL Melloi material is described as having sent the world of magecraft to the equivalent of its ice age decades, even after it.

There was a rumor of a True Ancestor-killing True Ancestor being born.The rumor said that it has the name of Brunestud. If that is so, then it would be True Ancestor royalty.It had defeated three Fallen Ancestors with ease, and its existence was confirmed by several witnesses.It is said that it has golden eyes and hair, and that it assumes the form of a female, which is rather rare among the True Ancestors.However, the church is still denying her existence. That's natural. The church is conservative.It wouldn't be possible for them to admit the existence of a being that rivals the Crimson Moon in scale that easily.

Crimson Moon was so powerful that even after the prime of the Age of Gods, the ptsd he put on the Holy Church made them find it hard to conceive of another being on the same standing as Crimson Moon. So they didn't believe in the manifestation of Arcueid, a being on par with Crimson Moon.

The thaumaturgical cities established by the Association are in the dispute against the Holy Church shut down one by one.Lord El-Melloi II Case Files material: Secret File -File 02: Chronology of the Clock Tower

The historical context of this statement is even funnier, because the holy church was still powerful rn at the time to force the Mages Association to close a lot of their headquarters.

Come of the magi that yet remained from the Age of Gods, the establishment of the foundation of the Thaumaturgical Association.A movement whereby 「even that Mystery will eventually vanish, let us preserve the past in the capacity of an academic discipline」.Lord El-Melloi II Case Files material: Secret File -File 02: Chronology of the Clock Tower

And at the time, it had remnants of mages from the Age of Gods.

What determines the strength of a god is not an authority, it is: How many authorities they have, how much magical energy power output they have. All authorities are equal, because they True Magic class, and without reasonable doubt:

Her perception expanded as she stabilized as a Divine Spirit. Now, connected to the Root, time no longer mattered. She was now able to search for a point in the past while remaining in the present

Because gods are directly connected to the Root. But just as explained in the last section, the compatibility of the Magics is what determines which one wins. That's why, instead of being called Grand Magecraft, they are outright described as beyond magecraft.

I'd like to emphasise these things are already intermediate steps, so they're still in the genus of mystery-as-measure. Rather than True Magic, which transcends mystery itself and is a mystery of mystery (the transcendence and limit of mystery).

ShinyHax said:
If we accept that premise, then any Divine Spirit—including those summoned as Servants—would have to be accorded that same level.

Say it ain't so, bro, every time there's a contest in a nasuverse thread, the opponent doesn't know what to believe under his own standards of what is true. Your earlier paragraph derived this conclusion from statements of case files volume 9 and 10, so say it ain't so that you came to this conclusion with those same volumes:

“Of course, this is all usually within the bounds of a Heroic Spirit. On the other hand, however close the Heroic Spirit gets to their original essence, they are still far from a Divine Spirit. No matter how many times you ascend them, they are still only a Servant. Class labels like Faker or Saber already restrict Heroic Spirits to a single facet of their abilities. That’s why I never considered this possibility before.”

Because we're told that no matter how much you ascend a servant, they will never reach the level of a Divine Spirit. So, say it ain't so, you read all of El Melloi Case Files Volume 9 and 10, then came to these conclusions incompatible with the general plot points of it.

Divine Spirit
You can call the ones that were once existences called gods told of in various legends, losing their form and dissolving into nature, as Divine Spirits. If you look at the fact that these Divine Spirits are existences told of in past legends and myths, then they are the same as the Heroic Spirits summoned as Servants, but in truth, an absolute difference exists existentially between a Divine Spirit and a Heroic Spirit. Therefore, excluding demi-god Heroic Spirits, summoning this "god itself" as a Servant in a Holy Grail War is normally impossible. An exceptional method to make this possible exists where you can prepare a vessel and bring the Divine Spirit down into the material world. For the Divine Spirits manifesting in this form, because their psyche is heavily influenced by their human vessel, it is often the case that their psyche alters to some degree compared to back then. However, the existence of Ishtar descending using an Einzbern homunculus as a vessel is a case where the "Divine Spirit with the psyche is infinitely close to her original psyche", which is rarely seen but nonetheless, she has manifested in this world. And it's hard to know what kind of storm her kind of existence will bring to the Holy Grail War.
Fate/Strange Fake Material

Say it ain't so, Divine Spirits are degraded essences of Gods that can't exercise the full extent of their authority:

“The amount of information a human being can hold cannot be compared to that of a god. If you compare gods to mountains, humans are but grains of sand. Not even all of the supercomputers in the world could contain that much information. To achieve a similar effect, you would have to solidify and compress the god’s divinity like a computer file.” Lord El-Melloi II's Adventures ~ Volume 1/ The Man Who Devoured God

Because they inhabit physical vessels (humans) that already delimit their power, say it ain't so, we're told that gods have normally been suppressed in power to fit into a servant Saint Graph and class of spiritual existence (this is what a divine spirit is if you didn't know btw). Which is consistent with statements from Case Files Volume 9 and 10.

Dioscuri - Pollux
Have you forgotten that we're now only Divine Spirits, not proper gods!? Making true use of our Authority could destroy our entire Spirit Core! Fate/Grand Order - Lostbelt 5/ Olympus

Please say it ain't so that Castor used his authority to move faster than light as a Divine Spirit in the Age of Gods, and his saint graph broke down from the strain. Because only true form/true body gods can use authorities without suicide bombing themselves. Say it ain't say Sozuka Gozen used her trichiliocosm noble phantasm, which is an authority class-skill, and her saint graph also was breaking down from the strain.

Say it ain't so, Brynhildr, a high-class servant can't even handle higher-class grand magecraft, let alone True Magic. And her soul implodes on herself, after she uses the primordial runes. Are we even sure this is grand magecraft and not just really high magecraft (????)? God forbid, please say it ain't so that everyone is gonna upscale from implications that contradict the source material.

Oh no, I wish I were done. But I'm not.

Please say it ain't so that servants using the mythological mystic code, which lets them have authority like the gods, on par with BB's, but they can only use it once, even after having their Saint Graph buffed by several circumstances. Because it would destroy their saint graph.

Archetype:Earth: Though I represent the soul of the planet, its archetype, I have no such Authority in the form of Servant. At best, I can create a storm with my fingertips, or cause an earthquake by touching the surface with my toes

Please say it ain't so. Archetype: Earth has to be degraded from the Celestial Egg frame to fit into a servant class, which makes her lose her authority. Please say it ain't so, it can't be that type moon doesn't shove it in your face, how wrong this is. Again, either those authorities are present in the Saint Graph, but when used, destroy the SG of the servant, like with Castor, or they just aren't included as authorities in the SG, like with Archetype: Earth. Oh please say it ain't so. Shall I continue?

By my Command Spell, I order you to wield that Authority of yours, even bound in human flesh, Black Tezcatlipoca!Tezcatlipoca:And so I will. I pay two of my organs to invoke a solar eclipse.Fate/Grand Order Lostbelt 7

Oh please, say it ain't so, that Tezcatlipoca has to perform a binding vow of trading an organ or two of his human vessel. Just to use his event-exchange authority for a few minutes, because it is too powerful for that human vessel.

“Hands are symbols of evolution....“To a god, hands represent infinite reach. In Asia, the compassion of Avalokiteshvara is represented in her thousand arms. On the other hand (TN: pun not intended), the hands of war deities like the Asura represent destruction. Therefore, if one has the hands of a god, one can reach information normally inaccessible to humans. In other words, they can reach new heights of evolution, which caused you to reach memory saturation… your creators should have predicted that this would happen. Didn’t Mushiki ask you about what you remember?” Lord El-Melloi II's Adventures ~ Volume 1/ The Man Who Devoured God

Because the evolution of a God is infinite, provided we understand here that "hands" are used symbolically for "evolution" and "infinity" for "evolutionary scale". This is why newly created Divine Spirits, even as per volume 10, can move freely at any point in time and see through all of time. The scale of their evolution allows for access to information normally inaccessible to humans—and a divine spirit servant is simply a servant that manifests in a human vessel lels. The fact that some divine spirits' servants are outright stronger than every servant, despite being so significantly nerfed, is just so.. Giggles. Absolutely none of your conclusions follows at all, you just skipped nuance to come to the simplest conclusion that you're comfortable with.

THERE ARE SOME CASES WHERE THE HEROIC SPIRIT IS FORCED TO LOWER THEIR SPIRITUAL RANK IN ORDER TO FIT INTO THE VESSEL OF A SERVANT. AS THE DAUGHTER OF A HEAVENLY DEMON KING, SUZUKA-SAN IS NO EXCEPTION TO THIS.
Fate/Extra CCC Foxtail

Please say it ain't so, man, don't tell me they don't even explain how all of this works, too. It must be such a mystery! (no pun intended)

Shit, sometimes the nerfs are applied directly within the SG, instead of leaving the SG open to access by the authority that will destroy the body:

While a vast power trampled Heaven and Earth and smashed the World on its path toward him, Enkidu smiled with an expression of deep relief.It was an attack devoid of deceit or subterfuge.Though it lacked the sheer magnitude it had during the Age of Gods, the nature of his power was exactly as it had been.
Fate/Strange Fake - Volume 1

Enkidu outright tells us Gilgamesh's EA, as he knows it, had a far grander magnitude than it does when he's a servant in the modern world.

Dr. Roman: So, with that said. Let's get back to what we were talking about.Whether or not a Divine Spirit can manifest in the world as a Servant.
Dr. Roman: They can't.That is the answer.
Dr. Roman: Even if, say, the Divine Spirit in question were willing, it still wouldn't work. Even if you hypothetically had technology that reached the domain of True Magic, the odds would still be against you.

Wow, I guess I don't even have to parrot this one, bro. It's so obvious. I think the same principle applies with magecraft-approaching-true-magic

Fate/Grand Order
In principle, Divine Spirits who possess tremendous power cannot be summoned. However, there are cases where they manifest in the world as 'Pseudo-Servants' by possessing a compatible human host.

In Fate/Grand Order, there are Servants who closely resemble their original human vessels, but these are not the vessels themselves.

Power here obviously defers to Authority for anyone remotely aware. Divine Spirits transcend the Servant summoning framework entirely, and if they're summoned as Servants, they're made to be weak enough to be summonable, and so their Saint Graphs don't implode due to their authorities, my fella.

Do you want me to continue, or do you want to tell me something I don't know? Well, in any case, you think very carefully about what you say next; don't be so sloppy with your conclusions, honestly.

I don't even know what you're talking about when you say they'd "scale to each other"

You do know this is only smurf hax and gods are just gonna be 1-A, right? You do also know not every authority/true magic has anything to do with combat, right? Third Magic is literally one of the most useless forms of Magic in combat, because it is not only mana inefficient, but all of its applications have nothing to do with combat other than realising immortality.

You do also realise that if you have the authority of death/the underworld, as long as somebody has characteristics not reducible to that particular aspect of reality. They won't be harmed by them, just as it is with True Magic, right? Because, please say it ain't so, Fate/Grand Order doesn't tell us even if you send her to the underworld, Tiamat will not count as 'death' as long as the concept of death doesn't exist for her. Of which she only gets after Hassan cuts her.

Vietthai96 said:
Iirc Medea spartial magic in FSN

Nope, that's an effect of True Magic, a magecraft that approaches True Magic, not True Magic:

Spatial Teleportation of Servants- Spatial teleportation is a magecraft that reaches the realm of True Magic. Under normal circumstances, it is not something that can be used so easily. However, the Master of a Servant can make it possible, albeit in a limited capacity, through the use of a Command Spell. This is the act of Forced Summoning. No matter how great the distance between them, with a single command, a Servant will cross vast distances to rush to their Master's side.

As I've explained before, these tend to be significantly limited compared to True Magic, and don't even "transcend mystery", on top of that, they still have intermediary steps between them. It is a magecraft, that's it, a super powerful magecraft at that. All of this grand magecraft stuff will be 1-A max; even the manifestation of reality marbles is a materialisation of an immaterial world inside the inner self/soul of the human. Of which is freed from physical law and transcends space-time.

Neither servants nor divine spirits servants can handle actual True Magic and actual authorities without their SG collapsing:

Vietthai96 said:
Jeweled Sword literally utilise Second Magic, etc...

Not True Magic, too, btw, this is a mystic code that allows a person to perform effects of True Magic, and all it does is take mana from parallel worlds. It only utilises an extremely limited fragment of its function in a limited capacity at that. It's similar in principle to how Kojirou's multi-dimensional refraction falls under the domain of Zelretch but isn't Second Magic itself per se. Zelretch applies limited principles of Second Magic to his Mystic Codes, another example being Kaleidostick, which draws out various skills of yourself from parallel worlds and enables you to wield them for a few seconds.

This sword possesses the ability of the Second Magic "Operation of Parallel Worlds," albeit in a limited capacity, and is capable of interference to the extent of peering into the other side of parallel worlds. Using this power, it is even possible to bring magical energy saturated in the atmosphere of parallel worlds to this side.

Jeweled Sword Zelretch just performs the effects of True Magic with extremely limited capability at that. It merely connects and creates an infinitesimal gap between the infinite next door neighbouring parallel worlds, strictly to draw in the mana/lifeforce of the planet in the atmosphere of the said world, all limited by the user's output at that. Furthermore, it's something you can create with enough time and resources; it'd take Rin about 20 years if she had ample resources and money, lowball, to manage creating that with the blueprints left to her by her Grandmaster. Meanwhile—

If a phenomenon can eventually be achieved by investing enough time and resources, no matter how incredibly difficult it may be, it is not considered Magic.

Zelretch is in the observation viewing all parallel worlds, as indistinct with reference to them existing as actualities and still possibilities. That is, the distinction between potency and actuality still being blurred. Viewing them as such—and as fictional, the the entire universe, in fact, within a book as a fictional string of words to rewrite.

Getting mana from parallel worlds and this seem significantly different.

Oh, also, Vietthai. The statements of close to True Magic are much more common than you think.

“Good. …First, the mages of the Age of the Gods do not aim for the Root because they don’t have to. This is because the Root is quite close to them.”

There are statements of identical logical form "x(mages) are close to the y(the Root and by extension True Magic)", stated even four or three times in Case Files volumes 9 and 10. And even this expression is not logically identical in its content to this expression:

Divine Spirits are close to the Root, mages won’t have to search for the Root anymore. My mentor explained.

Because the state of affairs that obtains, to allow mages to be close to the Root to begin with is Gods themselves being connected to the Root:

“The magecraft from the Age of the Gods allows people to directly access the authority of Divine Spirits. And since Divine Spirits are close to the Root, mages won’t have to search for the Root anymore.” My mentor explained.

In fact, the entire expression is a conditional statement, "If Gods are closer to the Root (because they are connected to it), Mages of the Age of Gods are close to the Root", and why would this follow? The enthymeme here being that "Mages of the Age of Gods, had magecraft directly connected to the Gods' authority", a state of affairs that obtains such that it renders both the antecedent and consequence to be true:

“The magecraft from the Age of the Gods allows people to directly access the authority of Divine Spirits. And since Divine Spirits are close to the Root, mages won’t have to search for the Root anymore.” My mentor explained.

And all of this just to be:

We only know how to fool the world. They had the power to rewrite it however they wish. That is how powerful Divine Spirits are. Of course, they could only wield a fragment of the gods’ powers, but they were still far more powerful than we can ever aspire to be

Just to possess a fragment of these powers. So clearly, logically speaking, there's a difference between the expressions, which is to say, even when they are similar or even identical in linguistic structure, they differ in semantic designation. And differ logically insofar as they also differ in the truth conditions that must obtain for them to be true.

This is why it is important to think contextually about certain statements, rather than just the identity of linguistic structure between statements.

But alas, worry not, Vietthai, I came prepared for everything. There's not a single gap in those arguments; the only thing open for questioning is whether or not those reasons are sufficient for High 1-A+, which is another thing entirely.

Additionally, it would be of benefit to also ask yourself whether or not I made this same proposal, with identical arguments but without attaching tiers to it or simply saying "5D for True Magic, and 3D for everything else below it".
Whether or not this would render a different impression of the statement, because if it does, it would mean intuitions are being invoked to substitute for rationale.

That is, "it feels too high and unintuitive, therefore it must be wrong", intuitions can be misleading, especially in power, where either buzzwords or cosmic destructive feats are primitive elements of intuitions with which we judge power.

And the result is, you can find something unintuitive without rationale, and adopt any form of rationale as an alternative, irrespective of its logical consistency. Because if we're being honest here, if an argument truly has a problem of consistency. Then it should at least bit, be easier to directly dismantle each of the premises there by themselves.

Rather than going about it in a roundabout way, searching for any statement empty of the context surrounding it to stand at least a chance against it. In other words, instead of arguing against logically, you spread the seed of doubt externally.

One is rhetorical. The other contrary would be actual logical analysis. But I think at the very least, given that you do phrase this neutrally rather than the other lad. I do think the concern is fair, since you're not making a conclusive statement, you're just unsure about whether or not the logic can be accompanied by your intuitions.

Which in any case, I hope this response helped with what you were looking for, and if you have any further questions, you may ask, friend!

But just to be clear, only the Five Magics scale, not the effects of True Magic. I've made this clear earlier in the thread, when somebody asked if Gilgamesh would scale. And I said no, because noble phantasms are miracles in effect, not True Magic at a grounding level. And I've already made even more clear in saying that Avalon too doesn't scale, because its boundary conditions are the effects of True Magic, not that it is True Magic itself. It is a reality marble of the Planet, so I'm sure you can tell how this isn't True Magic in itself. Authorities, on the other hand, actually connect to the Root and are entirely at the True Magic level, but I was thinking about covering them in another thread to prevent having longer arguments. But oh well, that got spoiled now.

Antvasima · Jun 30, 2026

@Ultima_Reality @Executor_N0 @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @Ovy7 @IdiosyncraticLawyer @GrathOfLux @Udlmaster @FinePoint @SamanPatou

Are any of you willing and able to help out here please?

ShinMaximillion · Friday at 06:24

Counts the seeds of time in boredom

Bump.

Antvasima · Friday at 07:52

Well, I cannot force other members to be interested when I ping them.

ShinMaximillion · Friday at 08:33

Antvasima said:
Well, I cannot force other members to be interested when I ping them.

Oh yeah, don't worry, don't worry, it was mostly a jest in good faith. But yeah, Type Moon threads have been stagnating for a long while; we definitely do require dedicated moderation to handle it. Iirc all other verses, especially large ones, have a few dedicated mods to them.

Antvasima · Friday at 09:30

Okay. Noted.

Qawsedf234 · Friday at 21:03

Just a Random Butler said:
@Qawsedf234 @DarkDragonMedeus @Celestial_Pegasus @Elizhaa

We already agreed that the Root/Records were High 1-A+ here, while the [ ] was allowed to stay at 0. So I guess it's fine?

No comment on High 1-A true magic.

ShinMaximillion · Saturday at 07:39

That's fine.

Okay, so far the tally is Spaceman agreeing to all of the above, Qawsed and Vietthai being neutral. But I explained to Vietthai regarding his concerns, so I dunno if he's still neutral. I guess a few more mod evaluations are necessary.

I'll give the examples of the True Magic stuff later or whenever.

[TYPE-MOON] True Magic High 1-A+, Akashic Records and Root thread

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