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-Ken Kaneki vs Muzan Kibutsuji- Match 4 [12-1-1] - GRACE

Okay, look. Kaneki eats Oggai with his kagune-mouth > absorbs Giga-Kakuja Kaneki eats investigators and Furuta's core with his kagune > absorbs them See how it works? The dragon chews and eats Kaneki > Kaneki is not absorbed
Can the teeth absorb? Is the absorption passive?

What's his Ice supposed to do? It says it can cause lungs to undergo necrosis, not sure how that matter since Kaneki's immortality will let him shrug that off. The fight ends with a Kagune in his skull and Kaneki absorbing him afterwards to shit on the other Kizuki.
He just doesn't resist being frozen, so he gets frozen.

Kaneki is resistant to ROS, which affects DNA and the body on a cellular level, so toxic blood is not a problem for him.
Okay now prove its equal or above high tier demon blood.

Skills, accelerated perception, multiple limbs, range, absorption, regeneration, and dura neg allow him to do this. Especially now that his High 7-A is unlimited.
Everything you just named the demons have.

Kaneki can resist cellular destruction via resisting RC supressants which causes the RC cells to disintegrate, and has heat resistance up to 30,000 C, so his cells won't get mutated/destroyed or melted in anyway from that.
How fast is the cellular destruction? There's no heat involved with the bio hax for demons.

What about Koku makes him untouchable?
STW.
 
He just doesn't resist being frozen, so he gets frozen.
His RE will adapt to that + he can potentially utilize Tatara's abilities depending on if @NikHelton allows for it.
How fast is the cellular destruction?
Not stated.
There's no heat involved with the bio hax for demons.
His profile saids :
Biological Deconstruction (By injecting his blood into humans he causes them rapid mutations that results in cellular destruction and quick melting and vaporization of their body.​
Kaneki can resist both the mutations within his body via resisting suppressants and the heat aspect as well.
He'd have to literally dodge all of Kaneki's danmaku, which are a lot stronger than his own durability with added regen neg that you have yet to prove wouldn't work on them.
 
His RE will adapt to that + he can potentially utilize Tatara's abilities depending on if @NikHelton allows for it.
I thought RE wasn't allowed to be used on powers that haven't been shown to be able to be adapted to by the character? Isn't there an entire NLF section on RE's power page?
 
I thought RE wasn't allowed to be used on powers that haven't been shown to be able to be adapted to by the character? Isn't there an entire NLF section on RE's power page?
"It would be a No Limits Fallacy to assume someone with this power can obtain any ability whatsoever. Its extent and complexity only go as far its feats and scaling have gone for it, in relation up to countermeasures to powers that already exist in the setting or similar, in a case by case basis."
 
I thought RE wasn't allowed to be used on powers that haven't been shown to be able to be adapted to by the character?
On profile, Kaneki's power mimicry lets him get a buncha other Kagune abilities, one of them being Tatara's that can release 4,000c heat
 
On profile, Kaneki's power mimicry lets him get a buncha other Kagune abilities, one of them being Tatara's that can release 4,000c heat
....Okay but that's not ice. Ice is a completely different power from extreme heat.
 
Does extreme heat not melt ice?
kronk-point.gif
 
What's his Ice supposed to do? It says it can cause lungs to undergo necrosis, not sure how that matter since Kaneki's immortality will let him shrug that off. The fight ends with a Kagune in his skull and Kaneki absorbing him afterwards to shit on the other Kizuki.
A single breath from his Boddhisatva is enough to almost completely freeze a human, and that was done by a Doma who was poisoned and weakened to 100x below his current level (the potency of blood demon arts weaken alongside physical stats)

Kaneki can resist cellular destruction via resisting RC supressants which causes the RC cells to disintegrate, and has heat resistance up to 30,000 C, so his cells won't get mutated/destroyed or melted in anyway from that.
it depends on two factors:

1. How much blood Kaneki is injected with, because smaller doses of his blood work as a cancer or a poison that constantly degrades the cells and floods the body with demonic ones (basically Muzan's blood cells don't just destroy your cells, but they also multiply themselves to take over). But getting injected with too much blood can cause someone to almost instantly swell up and die.

2. If Kaneki's Cellular Destruction resistance is limited to his RC cells and doesn't break down invasive cells, then Muzan's blood would still just overwhelm the amount of RC cells and human blood and either convert him into a demon (which Muzan can control) or simply just blow him up from the inside or have his human blood completely disintegrated. Even in lower doses, his human blood cells would still be mutated and he would still be poisoned / slowly transformed even with poison resistance.

Edit: Worth noting that every single one of Muzan's physical strikes are laced with his blood.

What about Koku makes him untouchable?
The Transparent World does. Kokushibo can activate the Transparent World, and it will allow him to see everything around him, including characters with comparable speed to his own, in slow motion. It also functions as psuedo-precognition and X-Ray vision, as Kokushibo can analyze the blood flow and muscle expansions in someone's body to predict their next attack and even the power behind said attack. He is also able to distinguish between different genes and blood, so he oculd potentially recognize RC cells as similar to demon ones and analyze his other abilities based on that.

Also Kokushibo has a speed blitz amp with the attack speed of his Longsword attacks.
 
The only problem with Kokushibo and Akaza's speed boosts is that they're still slower than Muzan and Kaneki is equalized to Muzan's speed, so....
 
The only problem with Kokushibo and Akaza's speed boosts is that they're still slower than Muzan and Kaneki is equalized to Muzan's speed, so....
well, they scale to the same value, and honestly i wouldn't put Muzan that far above Kokushibo's speed in any way, especially not his attack/perception speed.

remember, base Gyomei was able to parry all of Muzan's tentacles/whips (black blood brambles), and that Muzan was still freshly poisoned. meanwhile, a locked in Kokushibo was pretty much untouchable to a Marked Gyomei and a Marked Sanemi. His highly weakened monster form was also able to blitz an STW-amped Gyomei.
 
well, they scale to the same value, and honestly i wouldn't put Muzan that far above Kokushibo's speed in any way, especially not his attack/perception speed.

remember, base Gyomei was able to parry all of Muzan's tentacles/whips (black blood brambles), and that Muzan was still freshly poisoned. meanwhile, a locked in Kokushibo was pretty much untouchable to a Marked Gyomei and a Marked Sanemi. His highly weakened monster form was also able to blitz an STW-amped Gyomei.
Last time I asked if Kokushibo's speed would allow him to fight Muzan if the whole self-destruct curse thing wasn't a factor I was told he'd get stomped.
 
A single breath from his Boddhisatva is enough to almost completely freeze a human, and that was done by a Doma who was poisoned and weakened to 100x below his current level (the potency of blood demon arts weaken alongside physical stats)
Good thing Kaneki isn't a human, he's body is practically a Kagune, and also, freezing here doesn't matter much considering Kaneki can release heat from his Kagune, upwards to 4,000 C which will flash vaporize any ice Doma can throw at him.
1. How much blood Kaneki is injected with, because smaller doses of his blood work as a cancer or a poison that constantly degrades the cells and floods the body with demonic ones (basically Muzan's blood cells don't just destroy your cells, but they also multiply themselves to take over). But getting injected with too much blood can cause someone to almost instantly swell up and die.
As I said earlier, Kaneki can resist biological deconstruction, and the Dragon Toxin which gives people cancerous Kagune formations. Kaneki's body swelling up and (exploding from heat?) won't matter much due to his immortality and ability to think critically and attack while in a liquid state.
If Kaneki's Cellular Destruction resistance is limited to his RC cells and doesn't break down invasive cells, then Muzan's blood would still just overwhelm the amount of RC cells and human blood and either convert him into a demon (which Muzan can control) or simply just blow him up from the inside or have his human blood completely disintegrated. Even in lower doses, his human blood cells would still be mutated and he would still be poisoned / slowly transformed even with poison resistance.
Wdym limited to his RC cells? That wasn't the condition for why he was resisting the dragon toxin, it's because his body is practically a Kagune, there was no mention at all of more RC cells = more dragon toxic Resistance and to speculate it as such is a headcanon, even people like Furuta who had comparable RC cells to Kaneki were wearing mask to protect themselves from the Dragon Toxin.
The Transparent World does. Kokushibo can activate the Transparent World, and it will allow him to see everything around him, including characters with comparable speed to his own, in slow motion. It also functions as psuedo-precognition and X-Ray vision, as Kokushibo can analyze the blood flow and muscle expansions in someone's body to predict their next attack and even the power behind said attack. He is also able to distinguish between different genes and blood, so he oculd potentially recognize RC cells as similar to demon ones and analyze his other abilities based on that.
Can you show him reacting to Danmaku, not by parrying because he'd need to dodge every single one due their greater ap and low-high regen neg.
 
Last time I asked if Kokushibo's speed would allow him to fight Muzan if the whole self-destruct curse thing wasn't a factor I was told he'd get stomped.
"stomped" isn't the right term, but the fight would absolutely be in Muzan's favor... Muzan is stronger, has attack speed amps of his own, paralyzing and seizure inducing shockwaves, and also the fact that he would know all of Kokushibo's capabilities beforehand.
 
The Transparent World
OH YEAH i completely forgot about that

i'll interrupt what i was studying and read the skill section for Kaneki, because i think if Kokushibo's and Akaza's outskill is a tad too much, then they'll take my vote
 
"stomped" isn't the right term, but the fight would absolutely be in Muzan's favor... Muzan is stronger, has attack speed amps of his own, paralyzing and seizure inducing shockwaves, and also the fact that he would know all of Kokushibo's capabilities beforehand.
I was basically told that Muzan would blitz and one-shot him even with all of Kokushibo's amps stacked on top of each other.
 
Looking at KnY guys profile, I don't see any regen neg that can deal with Kaneki's Low-High via RE, or his ability to absorb them to sustain and further enhance himself mid battle. Kaneki has shockwaves that scale above the entire KnY verse's dura, and he can use this to one shot multiple enemies at the same time if they're jumping him. Kaneki can amplify his perceptions to help react to attacks, and for attacks that get through that and damage him, Kaneki's AD process will begin allow him to grow stronger and faster in combat. What's also important is that Kaneki's LS is thousands of times higher as well, so any attempts to parry, rather than dodge, will result in some of the members getting their limbs tore at. Kaneki's danmaku will let him relentlessly spam attacks, which all have regen - neg to low-high, which is superior to anything shown within kny.

Voting Kaneki due to superior AP, LS, Skill and Regen.
Same Resoning. Voting Kaneki
 
His RE will adapt to that + he can potentially utilize Tatara's abilities depending on if @NikHelton allows for it.
When has his re adapted to ice. He'd be frozen anyway so Tatara's abilities wouldn't be used.

Not stated.
That's kinda needed cuz of Muzan's own shit being pretty fast.

His profile saids :
Biological Deconstruction (By injecting his blood into humans he causes them rapid mutations that results in cellular destruction and quick melting and vaporization of their body.Kaneki can resist both the mutations within his body via resisting suppressants and the heat aspect as well.
Doesn't mean heat.

He'd have to literally dodge all of Kaneki's danmaku, which are a lot stronger than his own durability with added regen neg that you have yet to prove wouldn't work on them.
Yes exactly he would dodge them all. I've already moved on from the regen neg and haven't gotten an answer for what I asked, not speaking on it unless it gets proven it works on an entirely different physiology.
 
I've read all the arguments above and would like to share my opinion as well:

  1. Regarding Low-High regeneration negation — it does work. Ghoul regeneration doesn't rely on magic or even RC cells, but on telomeres. Telomeres are part of DNA and are involved in cell division, i.e., regeneration. RC cells merely preserve telomere resources by preventing them from shortening. Thus, the kagune blocks natural regeneration, and this should work on demons.
    h7aa5qq.jpeg
  2. Regarding absorption — it also works. As seen with the Oggai and Furuta, biomass absorption can occur via the kagune and happens instantly. Kaneki was eaten by the Dragon but not absorbed. Therefore, he can absorb demons, but they cannot absorb him.
  3. Regarding Muzan's biohax and demon blood poison — it doesn't work. Kaneki's kagune and body are resistant to Biological Deconstruction. As seen with Naki, deconstruction happens instantly. As for ROS, which rewrites DNA, causes sensory degradation, and destroys the nervous system — that also happens instantly. Thus, Kaneki can resist this and adapt via RE.
    IIVz8ng.jpeg
  4. Ironically enough, the Kizuki with the best hax are actually the weakest. Anyone with mindhax gets instantly obliterated due to the AP and Speed gap. No chance. The only ones besides Muzan who would be of any use are Kokushibo, Akaza, and Doma. Even Nakime would be 10 times slower than Kaneki. Given his AD, he'll outpace them quickly. His instinctive reaction is also superior, allowing him to fight on instinct. His skills and enhanced senses let him actively evade attacks from blind spots and sense the enemy's intent — all of this is in his profile. He's on par with Arima, who easily handles crowds and, even as a young investigator, could single-handedly clear a room of 30 ghouls — showcasing incredible battlefield control.
  5. Kaneki's LS prevents demons from blocking or parrying his attacks, and he can crush those caught in his kagune.
  6. Doma's cryokinesis should indeed be a problem, but Kaneki can copy the kagune abilities of ghouls he's seen before. He's copied Kirishima's shockwaves, Eto's kagune-mouths that can speak, Hinami's chimera kagune, and Uta's ability to reshape kagune into flesh. So he could simply copy Tatara's flames to surround himself with fire and prevent freezing.
  7. His pseudo-flight should prevent Muzan from throwing him into the Infinity Castle, forcing Muzan to choose a different strategy.
Thus, Kaneki wins via hax and skills, although it won't be an easy victory. His combat skills and enhanced senses are sharp enough to help him fight against such a crowd.

Voting for Kaneki
 
Good thing Kaneki isn't a human, he's body is practically a Kagune, and also, freezing here doesn't matter much considering Kaneki can release heat from his Kagune, upwards to 4,000 C which will flash vaporize any ice Doma can throw at him.
I mean, Doma's cold temperatures aren't restricted to working only on humans? 😭 His physiology doesn't mean anything unless being "practically" a Kagune means he's resistant to temperatures below like 200°C or whatever Doma upscales from.

Also, his high heat would be useless if he's instantly frozen right as soon Doma pops the Boddhisatva. Since when does Kaneki passively release 4000°C when starting fights? If it's not an opening move, which it's not, then he loses that encounter instantly.

And I don't want to get petty with the chain scales, but demons should have heat resistance up to like 20000°C for tanking lightning.
Wdym limited to his RC cells? That wasn't the condition for why he was resisting the dragon toxin, it's because his body is practically a Kagune, there was no mention at all of more RC cells = more dragon toxic Resistance and to speculate it as such is a headcanon, even people like Furuta who had comparable RC cells to Kaneki were wearing mask to protect themselves from the Dragon Toxin.

As I said earlier, Kaneki can resist biological deconstruction, and the Dragon Toxin which gives people cancerous Kagune formations. Kaneki's body swelling up and (exploding from heat?) won't matter much due to his immortality and ability to think critically and attack while in a liquid state.
You said "Kaneki can resist cellular destruction via resisting RC suppressants which causes the RC cells to disintegrate". I'm not making headcanons, I'm just going off of what you yourself said.

And as far as I remember, that is the case. The toxin over-stimulates the body's RC cells, and the massive influx of RC cells causes physical, genetic, and cellular mutations. I never said that more RC cells gives you a higher degree of resistance, and I don't know where you got that from. I'm saying if Kaneki doesn't have a way to protect the rest of his cells, then Muzan's biological manipulation would still work.

Can you show him reacting to Danmaku, not by parrying because he'd need to dodge every single one due their greater ap and low-high regen neg.
he hasn't fought someone with danmaku, but considering he'd view those attacks in slow-motion, i don't think it's gonna be much of an issue. Kokushibo does have danmaku attacks of his own, though. and they're a blitz level above his normal speed.
 
After reading more on the Kaneki feats, i'm starting to think he's winning
Low-High diff, 70% sure

Though i wanna listen more about answers to Transparent World
 
I was basically told that Muzan would blitz and one-shot him even with all of Kokushibo's amps stacked on top of each other.
whoever told you that is massively overestimating Muzan. he doesn't have a single feat that puts him above Kokushibo's perception with the STW or the amp from his Monster form. the best you can argue for Muzan is that he'd be equal to Kokushibo's speed or slightly superior due to the hierarchy.
 
i'm leaning towards Kaneki myself, but i'll refrain from voting until i get more of elaboration on Kaneki's resistances (it's been a while since i finished :re)
 
After reading more on the Kaneki feats, i'm starting to think he's winning
Low-High diff, 70% sure

Though i wanna listen more about answers to Transparent World
1. Has Transparent World ever been shown to work on someone faster than the user?
2. How is Transparent World going to react to Kaneki doing this?
 
Can we not repeat the same fight 4 times in a year?
More than a year has passed, and the stats have been changed.

The first time, it was closed because the speed wasn't evened out.
The second time, Kaneki fought Muzan alone and won.
The third time, he fought Muzan and Kizuki and lost.
Now all of their stats have increased, and Kaneki has received new hax.
 
Regarding Low-High regeneration negation — it does work. Ghoul regeneration doesn't rely on magic or even RC cells, but on telomeres. Telomeres are part of DNA and are involved in cell division, i.e., regeneration. RC cells merely preserve telomere resources by preventing them from shortening. Thus, the kagune blocks natural regeneration, and this should work on demons.
h7aa5qq.jpeg
This means Ghouls telomores are prone to the same aging process as humans. Demons are immortal, living for centuries without aging. This proves the reverse and in fact goes to show that the biology of Ghouls hinders the negation for broad application on characters like demons.

Regarding absorption — it also works. As seen with the Oggai and Furuta, biomass absorption can occur via the kagune and happens instantly. Kaneki was eaten by the Dragon but not absorbed. Therefore, he can absorb demons, but they cannot absorb him.
All you showed was the Oggai being beaten not instantly absorbed whole. I can't see the Furuta one, didn't link right. Again, do the teeth of the dragon absorb cuz that's where Kaneki died, he didn't die consumed, he died crushed by them.

Regarding Muzan's biohax and demon blood poison — it doesn't work. Kaneki's kagune and body are resistant to Biological Deconstruction. As seen with Naki, deconstruction happens instantly. As for ROS, which rewrites DNA, causes sensory degradation, and destroys the nervous system — that also happens instantly. Thus, Kaneki can resist this and adapt via RE.
First scan shows no whole deconstruction or even decon. Instead it halts the activation and movement of their rc cells and kagune. This sounds grossly misinterpreted, is there something more blatant?
 
1. Has Transparent World ever been shown to work on someone faster than the user?
how faster?
Kokushibo and Akaza reacted to comparable speeds and Akaza was faster than Tanjiro when the latter acquired it, so unless it is tremendously faster, yeah, should work

2. How is Transparent World going to react to Kaneki doing this?
Comparable speeds become slow motion, so they'll be dealing with a not-that-much-annoying danmaku
 
1. Has Transparent World ever been shown to work on someone faster than the user?
Yes, many times. Tanjiro's Transparent World allowed him to view Akaza as if he were frozen, and effortlessly dodge his enhanced Danmaku shockwaves without getting hit even once. To put into perspective, Akaza was constantly overwhelming Tanjiro and Giyu in a 2v1, with Akaza's fastest attacks being able to bypass a base Giyu's Dead Calm, and his Afterglow shockwave bullets being too fast for even a Marked Giyu to perceive (the Slayer Mark is consistently shown to be a blitz amp) and even broke through his Dead Calm, yet Tanjiro (who is significantly slower than Marked Giyu and WAY slower than Dead Calm) was able to come out unscathed because of the Transparent World, and even managed to blitz Akaza (this part is only in the movie).

If you didn't know, Giyu's Dead Calm is also an Esoteric Technique that puts Giyu's attack speed and perception a blitz over his normal self. Tanjiro should've essentially been multiple blitz levels below Akaza's fastest attacks, but he was still unharmed despite being near the epicenter of the attack. So the Transparent World's increase in reaction speed would be several levels above one's initial combat speed, and perception speed would be able to statue someone who should be levels above your own speed.

There is another example with Muichiro's Transparent World and Kanao's Vermillion Eyes (a technique weaker than the Transparent World) but I think you get the idea. And Kokushibo's Transparent World should simply be superior to everyone else's.

Also Kokushibo is actually faster than Kaneki, as he scales to 25.8% SoL as opposed to Kaneki's 20.
 
Yes, many times. Tanjiro's Transparent World allowed him to view Akaza as if he were frozen, and effortlessly dodge his enhanced Danmaku shockwaves without getting hit even once. To put into perspective, Akaza was constantly overwhelming Tanjiro and Giyu in a 2v1, with Akaza's fastest attacks being able to bypass a base Giyu's Dead Calm, and his Afterglow shockwave bullets being too fast for even a Marked Giyu to perceive (the Slayer Mark is consistently shown to be a blitz amp) and even broke through his Dead Calm, yet Tanjiro (who is significantly slower than Marked Giyu and WAY slower than Dead Calm) was able to come out unscathed because of the Transparent World, and even managed to blitz Akaza (this part is only in the movie).

If you didn't know, Giyu's Dead Calm is also an Esoteric Technique that puts Giyu's attack speed and perception a blitz over his normal self. Tanjiro should've essentially been multiple blitz levels below Akaza's fastest attacks, but he was still unharmed despite being near the epicenter of the attack. So the Transparent World's increase in reaction speed would be several levels above one's initial combat speed, and perception speed would be able to statue someone who should be levels above your own speed.

There is another example with Muichiro's Transparent World and Kanao's Vermillion Eyes (a technique weaker than the Transparent World) but I think you get the idea. And Kokushibo's Transparent World should simply be superior to everyone else's.

Also Kokushibo is actually faster than Kaneki, as he scales to 25.8% SoL as opposed to Kaneki's 20.
Kaneki is 20% faster, his kakuja gives a multi-stage blitz amp and slow motion perception, and his AD increases his speed even further.
 
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