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Shattering All Limits with Tier 0 Lord of Mysteries

On that note, I heavily implore you to reconsider this
Before I go to sleep, I'll just remind everyone about this one more time. The first issue being the completely arbitrary assertion of "higher into High 1-A" (however that follows), and the second being that manipulating any notion across all logically possible worlds is still H1A+, regardless of how you wanna parse it. You wouldn't say someone "is not 1-A" just because they only control 1-A fire or something. In fact, OC is H1A+ because of the concepts themselves. Like if you're gonna disagree on them being H1A+, then I would disagree on even OC or Chaos being H1A+ too. It's genuinely only one or the other.

Because even the lesser unities are still non-discursive knowledge, which would still be beyond how we talk about logical worlds anyways.
 
So having read through the thread, I think Spaceman and Qa make the most persuasive arguments.

I will say however:

“They believe that all objects are numeric. Every number has a spirituality and in ritualistic magic, 0 represents the unknown or Chaos. It symbolizes the state of the universe before it was born. 1 represents a beginning, the first Creator. 2 represents the world and various divinities that were produced from His body. 3 represents contact between divinities and material objects to create all things. Here, using two candles represents the Goddess while the third candle is for you.
This would be better framed (as Spaceman pointed out) as a Daoist cosmology rather than a mishmash of many philosophies.

It should be noted in Daoism, 0 (Hundun or Wuji) is the Unknowable Dao:

Neo-Confucian thinkers used the term in the same sense as the Xici.
Zhou Dunyi 周敦頤 (1017–73; SB 277–81), in particular, associated it with
the Taoist term wuji (Ultimateless, Boundless, Infinite; lit., “without a
ridgepole”) in the famous phrase wuji er taiji 無極而太極. This phrase can
mean either that wuji and taji are one and the same thing, or that wuji comes
first followed by taiji. While Neo-Confucians tended to endorse the first
meaning, most Taoists adopted the second: for them, the taiji is the
beginning of the world, but the wuji is the unknowable Dao itself. This view
derives from the Han “weft texts” (weishu 緯書; see TAOISM AND THE
APOCRYPHA), where taiji is the last of the five precosmic geneses called Five
Greats (wutai 五太), representing the instant when pneuma (qi), form
(xing), and matter (zhi 質) are still merged together but are ready to part
from each other.

The taiji is the One that contains Yin and Yang, or the Three (as stated in
Hanshu 21A). This Three is, in Taoist terms, the One (Yang) plus the Two
(Yin), or the Three that gives life to all beings (Daode jing 42), the One that
virtually contains the multiplicity. The taiji is said to be the function of the
Dao, whose substance is Chaos (see ti and yong); the wuji is the Dao as
the metaphysical One, a neutral “no-number” that is before movement and
quiescence (dong and jing), unity and multiplicity. Thus, the wuji is a
limitless void, whereas the taiji is a limit in the sense that it is the beginning
and the end of the world, a turning point. The wuji is the mechanism of both
movement and quiescence; it is situated before the differentiation between
movement and quiescence,


- The Encyclopaedia of Taoism by Fabrizio Pregadio, pg. 1275
The statement provided by the OP seems very much so a fancier (in wording) retelling of "One begat Two" and aligns very well with a Daoist cosmological origination.

I think perhaps another CRT would be more appropriate where the OP could focus on these and not Platonism and such.
 
I mean I’m just not sure what focusing on either Taoism or Platonism matters really. It’s not like simply mentioning Yin and Yang or the Dao will scale anywhere.

The entire scale is just based on how knowledge is parsed at the level of Symbolism, i.e. that there is a progressive unity between thinker and thought. If ya’ll want I can easily just remove any mention of Platonism, it genuinely wouldn’t change much; all it’s there is to show that I’m not making shit up with my inductions and that there’s actual precedence for the concepts presented.
 
I've read both responses and haven't changed my stance. I don't see Tier 0 as being valid and I don't see a universal High 1-A+ (Type 1) rating being valid either.
You didn't counter his argument about Symbolism, just threw "Lol Neoplatonism not mentioned"

Not good argument to disregard whole thing when OP wasn't even using full Neoplatonism, but rather used analogies of Forms.
 
You didn't counter his argument about Symbolism, just threw "Lol Neoplatonism not mentioned"
I don't need to counter his argument. I need to evaluate it and make a determination on if it's acceptable for the proposed tier. I don't see it being High 1-A+.

there any particular reason for it or are you just gonna vaguepost it away?
When I get off work I can write a more dedicated response, but ultimately I just don't agree with how you're rating them.
 
Guys, please get perms to reply.

Anyways, I’m not sure where all this Platonism shit comes from. I only mentioned it as a reference, it genuinely holds jackall ground on the actual scaling lol.

But I still think the wackiest reductio is that Qaw is basically implying that the collective of 1-A concepts = H1A+ somehow
 
But I still think the wackiest reductio is that Qaw is basically implying that the collective of 1-A concepts = H1A+ somehow
Unrelated to this comment, have you been able to get a source for all the quoted text in the OP yet
 
Added.

Tho I want to mention a funny thing with this not being H1A+, because it’d put into question what T0 even is lmao.

For example, Pure Act is ineffable because it transcends lower mental activities. Since at its level, Knowledge and Being are numerically identical, it becomes the condition for the intellection of things. But as it follows, its Knowledge can only ever be attained through its Being, which is why dualized modes of apprehension like discourse and sense cannot perceive it. Since at the level of Pure Act, Subject (Thinker) and Object (Thought) are the same thing.

Which yea, Pure Act is entirely knowable in fact—you are explicitly allowed to “see” its Essence as a whole, Aquinas is very adamant about this fact. It’s just that you cannot “speak” on it because discourse is sequential and dualistic.

And guess why Symbolism and OC are ineffable? Couldn’t possibly be a similar reason, hmmmmmmmmmmm?

So if this doesn’t follow for LoTM, why would it follow for any T0, really? What’s the “proof” they transcend logical spaces if the way Knowledge is parsed isn’t relevant?
 
For Symbolism to be High 1-A+, that would mean they either scale to Chaos, the OC, or the Universe. If it's the Universe, then the Universe has to be High 1-A+ somehow, which I don't believe is the case.

I doubt any individual Symbolism scales to the OC, considering they're stated to exist at an unreachable level, and even the OC doesn't scale to Chaos.

Right now, your best way to convince anyone is to post quotes that support one of the three scaling methods above.
 
For Symbolism to be High 1-A+, that would mean they either scale to Chaos, the OC, or the Universe. If it's the Universe, then the Universe has to be High 1-A+ somehow, which I don't believe is the case.

I doubt any individual Symbolism scales to the OC, considering they're stated to exist at an unreachable level, and even the OC doesn't scale to Chaos.

Right now, your best way to convince anyone is to post quotes that support one of the three scaling methods above.
OC is just the collective of Symbols, in a similar way to how, say, the World of Forms is the collective of Forms. OC itself does not create definite things, as seen with the creation myth when the Universe it manifested was undifferentiated. Symbols are just the condition for that differentiation. If the Universe is to have existence, then the scope of Symbols has to be the same.

And again, OC is ineffable because it is at the level of Symbols, because Symbols themselves are ineffable.

As for the Universe, it explicitly refers to the entire Cosmology, including the Spirit and Astral World, and more fundamentally/conceptually to the Embodiment of the Universe which is OC.
 
OC is just the collective of Symbols, in a similar way to how, say, the World of Forms is the collective of Forms. OC itself does not create definite things, as seen with the creation myth when the Universe it manifested was undifferentiated. Symbols are just the condition for that differentiation. If the Universe is to have existence, then the scope of Symbols has to be the same.
The OC was a collective of a lot more than just Symbols, though, that much is stated. There is no 'largest' world, within a logical space, so the Universe itself cannot be High 1-A+ regardless of what the OC put into it.

Likewise, the differentiation of said Universe can also not scale to High 1-A+ based on the universe itself; it had to be based on the OC.
And again, OC is ineffable because it is at the level of Symbols, because Symbols themselves are ineffable.
Which is why I just asked for scans equating them in power, if the OC's abilities come from Symbols, or Symbols are stated to wield part of his power, I can agree with High 1-A+.
 
Added.

Tho I want to mention a funny thing with this not being H1A+, because it’d put into question what T0 even is lmao.

For example, Pure Act is ineffable because it transcends lower mental activities. Since at its level, Knowledge and Being are numerically identical, it becomes the condition for the intellection of things. But as it follows, its Knowledge can only ever be attained through its Being, which is why dualized modes of apprehension like discourse and sense cannot perceive it. Since at the level of Pure Act, Subject (Thinker) and Object (Thought) are the same thing.

Which yea, Pure Act is entirely knowable in fact—you are explicitly allowed to “see” its Essence as a whole, Aquinas is very adamant about this fact. It’s just that you cannot “speak” on it because discourse is sequential and dualistic.

And guess why Symbolism and OC are ineffable? Couldn’t possibly be a similar reason, hmmmmmmmmmmm?

So if this doesn’t follow for LoTM, why would it follow for any T0, really? What’s the “proof” they transcend logical spaces if the way Knowledge is parsed isn’t relevant?
Crine man, Bumquainas capping at 1-A.


"Yo big man, look at this possible world I thought of that doesn't have Pure Act. Why mfs even larp ts shit, bro ain't even scale to Modal Realism 😭 "

"Wym man, Pure Act isn't discursive, how are you even speaking of it as such to make that proposition man??"

"Icl man, I aint even know what that discourse stuff means but look: 'Pure Act doesn't exist in X possible world', cool stuff yea? Ima go debunk T0 on VSBW real quick, this shit easy. H1A+ on top"

"But what are you using to ground the content of that proposition if Pure Act is posterior to it?? If Pure Act is what allows you to even speak like that, how come you're delimiting it to that mode of thought??"

"Blah blah blah man. Keep coping, you just cant accept I debunked Aquinas, Plotinus, ancient Greek philosophy and all of medieval Theology. Actual Akuto Sai victims"

The OC was a collective of a lot more than just Symbols, though, that much is stated.
"The original Creator was the maker of the Universe, and also its destroyer. It is both day and also night. It's the light of holiness, and also the decadent abyss. It is an amalgamation of all contradicting concepts and symbolism.
That's literally all it is. Symbolism as unified and symbolism as differentiated. That's all.

There is no 'largest' world, within a logical space, so the Universe itself cannot be High 1-A+ regardless of what the OC put into it.

Likewise, the differentiation of said Universe can also not scale to High 1-A+ based on the universe itself; it had to be based on the OC.
Right, so then how do you believe those worlds become differentiated or determinate? If OC cannot create them, since the tool in which those become actualized doesn't posses that scope, then how could OC be H1A+ himself?

In fact, what even is the reason for H1A+ if not for Symbols? I'm very confused on that end. Since none of the other shit is inherently above 1-A.

Which is why I just asked for scans equating them in power, if the OC's abilities come from Symbols, or Symbols are stated to wield part of his power, I can agree with High 1-A+.
“However, the Oldest One's will can dissipate, but 'His' spirit will remain forever. It won't be erased unless the entire Universe returns to the singularity. Therefore, the corresponding high-level existences still have the possibility of having the Oldest One awaken in 'Them.' The higher the level, the greater the possibility. The corresponding influence and corruption will become more serious.”
Look man, OC getting erased by Termination Symbolism. Wild.
 
I'm ignoring the rest since I only care about what is below, and because you're being needlessly sarcastic.
Sorry, but I'm just a bit frustrated since I don't believe my arguments are being addressed at all. Particularly the fact that there's in total zero messages as to why Symbols aren't H1A+ aside from pure vibes.

Can you expand on this scan? I think you cut out the part where Termination is mentioned.
It's talking about this:
Mr. Fool, shrouded in grayish-white fog, explained in a calm tone, “This world was born from chaos. Besides the astral world’s dominator, the spirit world’s lord, and reality’s sovereign, there is another important symbolism—one that represents the endpoint of destiny, the universe’s destruction, and the finale of all things. Under such a symbolism, even the Celestial Worthy of Heaven and Earth for Blessings and the Mother Goddess of Depravity would completely perish, Their spirits no longer existing, everything returning to chaos. Of course, the hidden fourth Pillar would meet the same fate, not much later than us.

“Or rather, Its self-destruction brings about all termination.”
Genesis (Beginning) is the Symbol by which things emerge from Chaos into determinate forms, whereas Termination (End) is the opposite of that process. But in Chaos, there is no differentiation, not even that of OC as Godhood, since its pure unknowability. But as OC, it contains it since it contains both the beginning of its activity and the termination of it once it awakens. Those are Symbols. Everything it does is via Symbols, since they are the primordial revelations that are unified with it.
 
What do you think about Symbol's potentially scaling to the OC as a reason for them being High 1-A+?
If they can return everything to some composited state of existence, then I can see them being High 1-A+ (Type 1) like the Original Maker. For the same reason that they can alter a structure likely composed of all possible qualities in existence.
 
It's your CRT, so it's up to you, but I would change the OP to reflect the new arguments and conclusions. It currently reads very long, which might be driving staff away from reviewing or commenting.
 
Like I said here:
But I'm not going to stick around for a prolonged debate again as a warning
This'll be my last long comment. I just do not like how these threads generally transpire, and I'm not good with most of them.



For my first response section (if @Mr._East_Statement wants to respond they're allowed to):
To be clear, (Neo)platonism here is clearly for the Symbolism, and the thread is explaining how they are acting similar to a proper Form.
Neo-Platonism, or any idea, must still be mentioned and backed up within the work. Drawing comparisons is not a substitute for the work being usable in it's entirety.
That is definitely not a right word…
It's insulting to SuperNova, yes, but SuperNova (and some other users) have a bad habit of text-bloating their responses to the point where it becomes increasingly difficult to follow. The criticism is valid in my view, and there are ways to simplify it while still maintaining its original point in most cases.
It is like climbing stairs instead of suddenly standing on the roof.

A syllogism is discursive:
A. All humans are mortal.
B. Socrates is human.
C. Therefore Socrates is mortal.

The conclusion unfolds through sequential thought.
The issue is going to be a No Limits Fallacy. To prove High 1-A+ you have to prove that the characters are doing things that either are or impact a space that occupies all possible logical worlds.
Now, why it is important that limitless 'I' (subject) becomes one with the limitless 'universe' (object) is that Forms are intelligible principles, they cannot be grasped by sensory means or discruive reasoning (no sequential, spatial, or division being the subject and object), for The Form's being is also identical to its knowledge. So to understand the Form, the 'I' (subject) should be one with the very Form itself (object).

This scene just here to basically says subject and object are one, to simplify the matter. And it is indeed important if we want to argue for intelligible principles (Symbols) to be H1-A+, and the reason for use of Neoplatonism is that.
As mentioned elsewhere, even by Supernova, is that Neo-Platonic ideals are not mentioned and don't have a hold on scaling. So bringing Neo-Platonic ideals in this conversation as an attempt. You cannot use Neo-Platonic cosmological argumentation if the work doesn't reference Neo-Platonism in the first place. You can draw comparisons, but those comparisons are not valid scaling justifications.

The second issue is that this quote is about the Spirit Realm and how you have to adjust your perception within it. The Spirit Realm is Low 1-A and not affected by the OP's specific cosmology revision unlike the Astral World
… This is very accurate in fact, with the idea of what a Form should be. You cannot understand a form without being the form itself, for there is no division between the thinker (subject) and the object of thinking (object), thus no fragmentation between the being and its knowledge, thus no duality. "To know is to simply be." As one should "stay still and simply see." It is not really thinking about "something" at that point, other than the very act of thinking itself. By Neoplatonism argument of course, which is why relevant to this case. Because primordial truths (Symbols) cannot be grasped by anything but simply 'experiencing'.
I'll be honest here, the way you wrote this explanation is not clear to me. If the argument is that they are truly Platonic, then SuperNova has moved away from that argumentation. Ignoring SuperNova and just focusing on the ideal forms, that still only makes the complete unification of all forms High 1-A+, as no singular form can obtain will be the summation of all possible logical worlds other than the fundamental form of "The Good" to my understanding of that cosmology. Now I have agreed that the Symbols are High 1-A+ here, but there for a different reason than what is presented by my initial response.
To say such is kind of dismissive, considering all the statements that used and aline with OP's proposal (I believe the author for that). There is many statements as the backbone of their argument, not mere "resemblance."
You can feel that way, but unless mentioned, I don't see a bridging connection. You can say it "based on the work, it resembles Platonic Ideals" but that would just be explaining them in a way that makes understanding easier, not a justification in of itself.
If we try to say it isn't H1-A+ then I guess Ultima agreeing with Fate's True Magic being H1-A+ is wrong (True Magic is beyond discruive reasoning), no? I am pretty sure that's the case. Wiki accepts this for H1-A+.
I don't always agree with Ultima (or DT). If you want their opinions, ask them to comment here.

For the previous proposal, I did agree that Symbols should be High 1-A+ when I originally didn't.

For SuperNova only this part is relevant
Quite literally had a whole section specifically about the difference between Chaos as being embodied, and Chaos as what beings embody.

The Primordial Chaos that splits up is the Original Creator embodying the Symbol of Chaos, which does not split up.
The rest is related to Symbol, and I agreed with the change back to High 1-A+

Chaos is still part of a cycle of combining and then separating again. Tier 0 requires uninteraction and, more importantly, the inability to split the entity into smaller parts. A Tier 0 being is always a Tier 0 being; it can't be anything but that. The arguments still have:
  • That all things can be separated and combined together again
  • That when fully merged, like with the Original Creator they'll split again
There's no always present pure form in the depictions that you gave me. It's just things collecting and then breaking again forever in one cycle. It's why I still agree with @May_Alter 's point about it not being Tier 0



Overall, compared to my original stance:
  • Chaos is still High 1-A+ (Type 2) in my view
  • Acausal Type 5 makes sense
  • The rest are fine with the proposed High 1-A+ (Type 1) ratings
I think perhaps another CRT would be more appropriate where the OP could focus on these and not Platonism and such.
If SuperNova wants to specifically do that, sure I guess. Normally, I'd say to settle it here, but of the seven pages, like six are mostly filler at this point due to meme comments or improper discussion points. It would probably work better as a staff thread specifically about Tier 0 to avoid that.
 
There's no always present pure form in the depictions that you gave me. It's just things collecting and then breaking again forever in one cycle. It's why I still agree with @May_Alter 's point about it not being Tier 0
Uh. I explained the distinction between Chaos as embodiment (OC), and Chaos as the Truth being embodied (the Symbol/Essence) in the OP. I can explain that again if you want.

But uh, May Alter didn’t disagree with T0 for this reason, in that, they didn’t disagree with OCs “essence” being unchanging at all, if that’s what you’re implying.

They disagreed due to the fact that I can’t really parse sufficient evidence to prove something like Chaos’ Activity to be numerically identical to its Being, since you can be self-reflexive (wherein Thinker = Thought) simply through contemplation, without, in a sense, being contemplation-itself. The latter is T0, but the former is not.
 
Sure, go ahead
Well then, to begin, please look at the language used to describe OC:
"The Original Creator is at the third level, representing the ultimate, representing chaos, beginning and end, representing the unknowable and undiscussable. No existence can surpass this level, and this level can only have one being, and it's very unstable because both aggregation and division are His instincts.
It is a mass repetition of “represent”, because as is with all beings, even OC embodies some particular notion.

That “particular notion”, then, being this:
“When I was irrational, driven purely by divine instinct, that instinct allowed me to glimpse certain truths—or perhaps root causes.

“Everything in this world originates from the Original Creator. All living beings, all Beyonder characteristics, the way events unfold, and the miraculous turns of fate—all of it.

“What does this mean? It means separation leads to convergence. Something good will inevitably carry bad aspects, and vice versa.

“This is the essence of the world, the fundamental symbol that governs all things. Even existences as powerful as the Great Mother can’t completely avoid it. They can only mitigate its influence.”
The quote-on-quote “essence of the world, the fundamental symbol that governs all things.”

OC is the world, it is all things. It also divides and unifies; it is prone to everything which is conditioned by the Symbol. And because it is so, it embodies it maximally.

Meanwhile, Anthony noticed a strange change in the surrounding scenery: one side reflected the real world—sunlight, stars, green trees, the sea, humans—chaotically jumbled together. The other side resembled a frozen, lifeless universe. Above, brilliant explosions of light continued to erupt, casting out vast amounts of matter, while below, deep, dark abysses consumed everything, compressing it toward a final singular point…

These were still illusions, mere reflections of the mirror world.

Yet even a demigod like Anthony felt an indescribable fear rooted deep in his soul and flesh.

Despite Jenna still being at Sequence 3, without higher-level Beyonder characteristics, her presence was nearly as terrifying as the terror emanating from the depths of the special mirror world.

Because she embodied a most unique and fearsome symbol.

A symbol of the creation and destruction of everything!
^^^ After all, it is not merely OC that is allowed to embody this Symbol, but rather everything. It governs the division and unity of things, creation and destruction, genesis and termination.

For after all, OC is erased into chaos, so if the Symbol did not still exist, how would anything emerge into the next Universe?
OC’s embodiment of this Symbol is meant to be understood the same way as to how Great Old Ones represent their Symbols:
After a pause, Klein continued, "Although the Universe is vast and without an end, the Outer Deities are clearly more familiar with it than we are. They're also stronger, directly representing a certain aspect of the universe. It's very difficult to avoid 'Their' pursuit. Besides, even if we succeed, peace will only last for some time. The recreated civilization will be destroyed in less than a thousand years. When that happens, we won't even have the chance to become Great Old Ones, never capable of any form of self-redemption."
They are explicitly different from the Truths they embody fundamentally, yet, even with that, they can still be called things like “Calamity itself”:
As the planet was torn into fragments in an instant, the three-headed, three-bodied, six-armed Lumian remained completely unaffected.

How could calamity itself ever be harmed by Disaster?
Because in embodying some notion, they become a Symbol, a representative of that notion, and in turn, almost become indistinguishable from it.

This is why OC is also Chaos. Because in maximally embodying it, they become nearly indistinguishable from it—from what Chaos represents.

After all, OC really is just the unity of all Outer Deities, of all representatives. Which is why the “Embodiment of the Universe” can emerge through unity:
"That Lord of the Mysteries and God Almighty of ancient times were unable to restrain themselves from converging together, becoming the embodiment of the entire Universe, which is also the innate instinct of the original Creator."

Godhood is the indestructible spirit of the Creator within all things.
It is also why, you know, OC has an instinct. Because the spirits of the Deities, in coming from a particular concept, embody that concept in the very way they act.

But OC embodies all things. It embodies Chaos—the ground of unity and separation. But in doing so, his instinct literally becomes unity and separation. That is the instinct of Godhood (OCs Spirit), and so it becomes the instinct of the Universe itself.

Truth: "They" are the Truth and everything within the Gray areas shall be defined by "Them"; Light is too extreme, Darkness is too Corrupt. Order is too rigid, and Shadows are too DistortedGrayness is the only ultimate Truth of the universe.
So as pure Truth, Chaos remains non-dual and unchanged. But as the embodiment, the exemplification of that Truth into multiplicity, OC divides itself. After all, if all distinction is erased, then there would not be any meaningful difference between the essence of Chaos and OC itself. As such, they are both the same “Primordial Chaos” before creation. But in dividing itself, OC differentiates itself from such Chaos and exemplifies the “everything-ness” of Chaos into intelligible dualities.
 
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