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Debunking Ergenverse 1-A rating

XuQingXiYi

XuQingXiYi

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So the verse is currently rated as 1-A due to Essence and "spatial dimensions" discussed in ISSTH and AWE. I will attempt to debunk that notion with reason below(This is my first thread in vs battles so please go easy on me if I am erred in anything :)).





Essence of Space(ISSTH):

Scan 1: This supposedly mentions dimensions of space, but it says each of them are different size, how do you get dimensions themselves being of different sizes when they are unquantifiable.

Scan 2: This just straight up says that length, breadth, height makes up these spaces. It does not get past 3D. It says this is only a portion of space so u all might believe that the missing part is the higher dimensions but nothing like that is discussed and it was the essence of space that completed what space actually is.

Scan 3: Although this scan may show that a 2d circle becomes a 3d sphere with an additional thread, that is just changing the flat configuration of the circle which is incomplete to a complete system or a world. Meng hao couldn't even make anything beyond the sphere and was surprised that he could even make a world.


Here is a scan from beyond timescape that shows that the true form of former god paragon(11th step) is in a three dimensional form, the whole chapter is xu qing chasing de luozi(same guy) through time travel. Extra scan


Essence(AWE):
Awe Scan : The only parts that actually stand out is that Essence takes up no space, but simultaneously create and contain all of space and essence being outside of time and creating and containing all of time. So essence taking up no space and containing all of it just means it is outside of the space that was shown which is 3d space and contains all of it. Essence being outside of time yet containing all of time just means it is beyond the standard and conventional time. So overall, Essence is just law in a way, 4th step controls the law of reality in a bounded region(Vast Expanse) so they are just normal reality warpers. 3rd steps comprehend essences and can be partial reality warpers depending on how many essences they've comprehended.

Now I will try to go for the proposed tiers starting from vast expanse to Saturn Ring:

Vast Expanse:
There is not much to add here as it has already been discussed that the Vast Expanse contains infinite amounts of universes so it would get a 2-A rating.
True Universe:
This was also made in the past that the Vast Expanse is a nigh-infinitesimal speck compared to the True Universe's Size so I believe that this Universe is qualitatively larger than the vast Expanse which would give it a L1-C rating.
Scan used for bottom tiersAwwp scan
Star Domain: If we consider the Great Universe(True Universe) and Vast Expanse ratio to be a +1D difference then this would apply to the Star Domain as well giving it a 1-C rating
Dao Domain: This should be 1-C as well due to the reason above.
Saturn Ring: H1-C for containing infinite amount of Dao Domains.

TLDR:
Vast Expanse: 2-A
True Universe:L1-C
Star Domain: 1-C
Dao Domain: 1-C
Saturn Ring: H1-C
Agree: @Vesxpura
Neutral: @Eseseso
Disagree: @FriendOfTheTeaParty
 
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The screenshots aren't loading for me, so that should be fixed. As for the arguments themselves.

The first argument doesn't really make any sense. The scene itself has the dimensions he senses cover the entire Vast Expanse, so they'd be significantly sized regardless. That's something the blog itself mentions as well.

The second just seems like a non-sequitur. Of course, space has length, breadth and width. That doesn't really negate the countless other dimensions that get mentioned from existing, it just seems like a misunderstanding of how we treat dimensions at all.

The third scan itself doesn't really mean anything cause Meng Hao only comprehended a part of the Essence of Space temporarily through the Eighth Hex and could only use it in a limited manner in that battle. The point is to show those dimensions exist, not that Ancient Realm Meng Hao could manipulate them to his own without issue. Him being surprised then makes sense.

Now you are semi-correct about them being physical. Ancestor Realm (4th Step) cultivators have an entire Vast Expanse equivalent Realm within their "bodies" (which are just vessels for their Essence) but they do have antifeats for 1-A due to their physical forms existing within the same level of reality more or less.

The point on A Will Eternal is just, meaningless. You seem to just assert your interpretation of Essence contrary to the rest of that scene (which outright says Essence is beyond any place or shape at all) with nothing but well, vibes.

I'd support a downgrade to like, High 1-B for 4th Step, and maybe Low 1-A for 5th Step for seeing space-time as illusory. Subsequent Steps could have a dimensional difference via the gap between realms being stated to get bigger in like, every single book. That said I haven't yet finished Beyond Time so maybe this gets contradicted, so I cannot say for sure.

Oh yeah, here's the blog on the verse page for anyone to read.

I don't have nearly as much time as I used to for the verse, so I'll just say this much and probably won't post more and will go with whatever's decided.
 
Planck69 said:
The screenshots aren't loading for me, so that should be fixed. As for the arguments themselves.

The first argument doesn't really make any sense. The scene itself has the dimensions he senses cover the entire Vast Expanse, so they'd be significantly sized regardless. That's something the blog itself mentions as well.

The second just seems like a non-sequitur. Of course, space has length, breadth and width. That doesn't really negate the countless other dimensions that get mentioned from existing, it just seems like a misunderstanding of how we treat dimensions at all.

The third scan itself doesn't really mean anything cause Meng Hao only comprehended a part of the Essence of Space temporarily through the Eighth Hex and could only use it in a limited manner in that battle. The point is to show those dimensions exist, not that Ancient Realm Meng Hao could manipulate them to his own without issue. Him being surprised then makes sense.

Now you are semi-correct about them being physical. Ancestor Realm (4th Step) cultivators have an entire Vast Expanse equivalent Realm within their "bodies" (which are just vessels for their Essence) but they do have antifeats for 1-A due to their physical forms existing within the same level of reality more or less.

The point on A Will Eternal is just, meaningless. You seem to just assert your interpretation of Essence contrary to the rest of that scene (which outright says Essence is beyond any place or shape at all) with nothing but well, vibes.

I'd support a downgrade to like, High 1-B for 4th Step, and maybe Low 1-A for 5th Step for seeing space-time as illusory. Subsequent Steps could have a dimensional difference via the gap between realms being stated to get bigger in like, every single book. That said I haven't yet finished Beyond Time so maybe this gets contradicted, so I cannot say for sure.

Oh yeah, here's the blog on the verse page for anyone to read.

I don't have nearly as much time as I used to for the verse, so I'll just say this much and probably won't post more and will go with whatever's decided.
Click to expand...
My bad if the screenshots aren't loading, I will have to do something about it.

It says that ALL dimensional spaces described can be described in terms of length, breadth, and width so nothing is being negated about dimensions not existing, I am just saying that the dimensional spaces described can be described in terms of our 3 known dimensions

Yeah but with ur logic if we consider the dimensions he saw to be actually higher spatial dimensions and that they became threads he could manipulate then he should have had no problem going higher than just a sphere, regardless of how good his enlightenment was as of that point.

Yeah I guess I just added the awe part to add on to the 3 dimensions thing meng hao comprehended, not really important ig.

No but u see, in bt chapter 1353, a former God paragon true body was just a three dimensional form and the whole chapter was xu qing chasing him through time travel and timelines. If u didn't know God paragon are 11th Step. I will stand by my original ratings.

Aight it's alright if u can't comment anymore, but can u call other people knowledgeable on the verse to argue? That would be very appreciated.
 
I think using Beyond the Timescape is a better and more obvious way to downgrade. People comparable to 4th and 5th step absolutely do not show anything like 1-A and there are a lot of anti-feats for such a rating. And that is me just reading 45% of the novel yet.
 
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Saftirix said:
I think using Beyond the Timescape is a better and more obvious way to downgrade. People comparable to 4th and 5th step absolutely do not show anything like 1-A and there are a lot of anti-feats for such a rating. And that is me just reading 45% of the novel yet.
Click to expand...
Yes exactly lol, I just skimmed the final chapters and it is already enough to debunk anything before in previous novels
 
I don't care all too much about this, I'm just gonna make a few comments based on what I know (which is based on my reading of RI a few years ago, so if anything beyond it adds details or whatnot, I can't say anything, but to repeat what I said at the start, I don't really care)

The bodies of cultivators are quite expressly not the essences; they may contain analogues of that hold connections to (see Wang Lin tearing the fire/thunder "essence" out of people) or are manifestations of the essences (see the true essence bodies). The body is more conduit than actual 1-A higher order structure, with the true changes happening on the level of one's soul (with cultivation mostly causing transformations in the soul, with the body being transformed as side effect or to cause those changes in the soul, cultivation in of itself is not power, see Wang Lin during the dream dao stuff and the one disciple of Wang Lin who didn't actually cultivate, but instead focused on the domain), which is what has the connection to essences and allows individual cultivators to draw upon their power, if anything I'd say that the soul is what becomes the daosource (if the cultivator becoming a daosource themselves is actually literal rather than a reference instead to their degree of power/control over essence, someone can be a source of dao if they can create such without actually being the source of dao lol)

I can grab quotes from RI if needs be, but honestly, check the first, at worst, essence is still Low 1-A at its core for being the transcendental foundation of a given concept (of which includes time and space, with space explicitly including dimensions) and being irreducible to any of its instatations
 
Deonment said:
I can grab quotes from RI if needs be, but honestly, check the first, at worst, essence is still Low 1-A at its core for being the transcendental foundation of a given concept (of which includes time and space, with space explicitly including dimensions) and being irreducible to any of its instatations
Click to expand...
Yep. Or at least, I dunno how else you read:

“Back when I fought the Mortal Renegade, I asked myself, ‘What is Essence…?’ I had trouble with that question for a long time, but now, I understand. I know what Essence is.
“Essence has no form or shape; it’s almost like it doesn’t even exist, but simultaneously, it creates and contains every form and shape.

“Essence has no beginning or end, but simultaneously, creates and contains the beginning and end of everything.” Although he only murmured the words softly, they caused all of the 1,080,000 worlds to tremble!

“Essence takes up no space, but simultaneously, creates and contains all space.

“Essence exists outside of time, but simultaneously, creates and contains all time.” With these sentences having been uttered, all of the natural laws in the starry sky, as well as all the magical laws, began to resonate!

“Essence is noiseless and lightless, but simultaneously, creates and contains all sound and light.

“Essence does not exist in any one specific place, but simultaneously, creates and contains all places.” As Bai Xiaochun smiled and spoke these fifth and sixth sentences, all the living beings throughout the starry sky became still and quiet!!

In that silence, Bai Xiaochun spoke his final two sentences!

“Essence is infinitely small, but simultaneously, infinitely large.

“Essence is completely unique, and completely boundless!”''
Click to expand...
 
Planck69 said:
Yep. Or at least, I dunno how else you read:
Click to expand...
Some of the most obvious 1-A slop I've ever seen in a single excerpt xd.

Should just be straight 1-A because this is clearly made out to be something outside of the metric it governs, meaning it isn't quantifiable by any degree of measurement of spacetime. Which constitutes 1-A.

Only thing is anti feats. Idk if there's anti feats cause I haven't read this.
 
Phoenks said:
Some of the most obvious 1-A slop I've ever seen in a single excerpt xd.

Should just be straight 1-A because this is clearly made out to be something outside of the metric it governs, meaning it isn't quantifiable by any degree of measurement of spacetime. Which constitutes 1-A.

Only thing is anti feats. Idk if there's anti feats cause I haven't read this.
Click to expand...
The one thing he is correct about is their physical bodies very much not being on a higher reality (well kinda, 5th Step had some statements but the showcases are the exact opposite in the latest novel from what I'm told). Essences/Daos themselves don't have many antifeats.

So like, I can see a seperate rating for manipulating Essences versus their own physical feats (which are High 1-B at least), or something.
 
Phoenks said:
Some of the most obvious 1-A slop I've ever seen in a single excerpt xd.

Should just be straight 1-A because this is clearly made out to be something outside of the metric it governs, meaning it isn't quantifiable by any degree of measurement of spacetime. Which constitutes 1-A.

Only thing is anti feats. Idk if there's anti feats cause I haven't read this.
Click to expand...

Well, actually, to be more precise...

Low 1-A is the minimum it could be based on those statements.

But whether or not it's 1-A depends on if it is meant to be superior to/transcendent of the concepts it governs explicitly, or is just outside of/lacking them.

I guess you could make the case that the text doesn't explicitly say it's beyond them, but rather just isn't of them and possesses no space/time/etc.

Personally, 1-A seems more likely but I'm not sure how tight the divide is between those tiers.
 
Phoenks said:
But whether or not it's 1-A depends on if it is meant to be superior to/transcendent of the concepts it governs explicitly, or is just outside of/lacking them.
Click to expand...
They are explicitly beyond them, quoting the essence blog
Essence was a power that only the cultivators who were not from Arid Triad Expanse Cosmos knew. It was another level of power that was completely different from laws. Su Ming did not understand it. In fact, he had never come into contact with it before this.
Su Ming's pupils shrank. He could not sense any laws in the land changing. It was as if what the black-robed person was doing surpassed even the laws. In fact, it could be said that his Art was beyond Arid Triad Expanse Cosmos. This was a divine ability that did not belong to this place, but to places beyond it!
Click to expand...
The real issue is with any potential antifeats, to which I say see the above
 
Deonment said:
They are explicitly beyond them, quoting the essence blog

The real issue is with any potential antifeats, to which I say see the above
Click to expand...
Clearly it is 1-A+;

"I live in Harmonious Morus Alba's wings, but in whose body does Harmonious Morus Alba live? Even that life hosting Harmonious Morus Alba will only live for a short moment. When it lifts its head, would it not see that it is living in another life that will only live for a short moment? And when that life hosting these two is laughing, would it in the future understand that perhaps it is just a short brushstroke for a writer?"

"When that writer looks at the sky… I wonder, who will be the writer?"

"There is no end… just like how Dao is boundless."''
Click to expand...
Jokes aside, yeah, there's a lot going for it being superior in the work itself.

“The world has invisible natural laws….” he murmured.
“On top of natural law is the omnipresent power of Essence…. Understanding something’s intrinsic qualities, and seeing its true origin, knowing EVERYTHING about it… that is its Essence.”
Click to expand...
 
Deonment said:
I don't care all too much about this, I'm just gonna make a few comments based on what I know (which is based on my reading of RI a few years ago, so if anything beyond it adds details or whatnot, I can't say anything, but to repeat what I said at the start, I don't really care)

The bodies of cultivators are quite expressly not the essences; they may contain analogues of that hold connections to (see Wang Lin tearing the fire/thunder "essence" out of people) or are manifestations of the essences (see the true essence bodies). The body is more conduit than actual 1-A higher order structure, with the true changes happening on the level of one's soul (with cultivation mostly causing transformations in the soul, with the body being transformed as side effect or to cause those changes in the soul, cultivation in of itself is not power, see Wang Lin during the dream dao stuff and the one disciple of Wang Lin who didn't actually cultivate, but instead focused on the domain), which is what has the connection to essences and allows individual cultivators to draw upon their power, if anything I'd say that the soul is what becomes the daosource (if the cultivator becoming a daosource themselves is actually literal rather than a reference instead to their degree of power/control over essence, someone can be a source of dao if they can create such without actually being the source of dao lol)

I can grab quotes from RI if needs be, but honestly, check the first, at worst, essence is still Low 1-A at its core for being the transcendental foundation of a given concept (of which includes time and space, with space explicitly including dimensions) and being irreducible to any of its instatations
Click to expand...
Well essence being low 1-A is still under the assumption that dimensions discussed in issth were countless or infinite which is clearly not the case as those have been said to be described in terms of length, breadth, width. So it's basically just talking above how he saw that he could stack 3d spaces he could manipulate to pressure the opponent by stacking spaces onto them, not literally trapping them in dimensional spaces.
 
Planck69 said:
Yep. Or at least, I dunno how else you read:
Click to expand...
I don't understand how any of the Essence statements get it close to 1-A by itself, spatial dimensions have clearly stated to only amount to 3 so essence by itself wouldn't get that high despite sounding kinda op.
 
XuQingXiYi said:
Well essence being low 1-A is still under the assumption that dimensions discussed in issth were countless or infinite which is clearly not the case as those have been said to be described in terms of length, breadth, width. So it's basically just talking above how he saw that he could stack 3d spaces he could manipulate to pressure the opponent by stacking spaces onto them, not literally trapping them in dimensional spaces.
Click to expand...
Low 1-A and 1-A do not need a mention of countless or infinite dimensions to actually get the tier; those tiers are cosmology independent. The existence of, and essence grounding, dimensions is only secondary to the idea of essences grounding, being wholly independent of, and being irreducible to their instantiations, which includes time and space, but even without those essences would still be (Low) 1-A off the statement given by planck here
Planck69 said:
snip
Click to expand...
The dimensions are brought up in the blog because that part of was the basis of the tier back then, that isn't the case now, where proving the concept as platonic (not exactly, but it gets across my point well enough) is enough for the tier, because if a concept has such a degree of transcendence, then it being limited by dimensions as a concept is kinda silly on the offset
 
Deonment said:
Low 1-A and 1-A do not need a mention of countless or infinite dimensions to actually get the tier; those tiers are cosmology independent. The existence of, and essence grounding, dimensions is only secondary to the idea of essences grounding, being wholly independent of, and being irreducible to their instantiations, which includes time and space, but even without those essences would still be (Low) 1-A off the statement given by planck here

The dimensions are brought up in the blog because that part of was the basis of the tier back then, that isn't the case now, where proving the concept as platonic (not exactly, but it gets across my point well enough) is enough for the tier, because if a concept has such a degree of transcendence, then it being limited by dimensions as a concept is kinda silly on the offset
Click to expand...
Why exactly should essences be platonic on its own, they make sense more as laws of reality. The statement Planck gave about essence was just explaining the essence is outside normal space-time, how is it implying that essence is platonic. Anyways if this does happen to be the case then ig low 1-A makes more sense since literally everyone in bt who more are less above 4th and 5th step cultivators to be bound by time
 
XuQingXiYi said:
Why exactly should essences be platonic on its own, they make sense more as laws of reality. The statement Planck gave about essence was just explaining the essence is outside normal space-time, how is it implying that essence is platonic. Anyways if this does happen to be the case then ig low 1-A makes more sense since literally everyone in bt who more are less above 4th and 5th step cultivators to be bound by time
Click to expand...
They're explicitly above the laws of reality in text. You're assumptions about how they "make sense" do not supersede that.
 
Planck69 said:
They're explicitly above the laws of reality in text. You're assumptions about how they "make sense" do not supersede that.
Click to expand...
Being above the laws of reality does not make them platonic, neither does the statements u provided make them platonic, one of the requirements of being a true platonic form is being a spatial and a temporal in nature and being above the concept of dimensions, which haven't been shown clearly for essence.
 
this chapter is this from? I didn't see the three-dimensional aspect in the Chinese version.

XuQingXiYi said:
Here is a scan from beyond timescape that shows that the true form of former god paragon(11th step) is in a three dimensional form, the whole chapter is xu qing chasing de luozi(same guy) through time travel. Extra scan
Click to expand...
 
I also said this is 1A+.
“我生存在桑相的翅膀内，可桑相又生存在谁的弹指间……那弹指的生命，若抬头时，可否能看到他所在的另一个生命的眨眼中，还有那眨眼的生命，在嘲笑其世界的同时，可曾明悟他的存在，或许只是文人墨客的一笔天钩之内。
至于那墨客看去的天，又是谁的眼……
没有尽头，一如……道无涯。
Click to expand...
 
This is the Chinese version of Beyond Time Chapter 1353, where even machine translation can make it clear that there are endless dimensions here.

他只是微微抬起眼帘，但那双深不见底的紫色瞳孔中，冰冷的杀意并未消退，反而更加凝聚。他清晰地“看”到了，在那百万声叠加的惨嚎源头，在无尽维度乱流的深处·……
Click to expand...
 
在每一个维度里，在每一个概念中，在每一个故事内，它们都追上了母河神灵，将其从各个区域拉回，形成在了祭坛的中心。——Chapter 1346
Click to expand...
自虚无深处而来，瞬间洞穿所有维度，精准地没入各自先前降临的分身投影之中。——Chapter 1352
Click to expand...
To be honest, I really can't find where the three dimensions are. I can only find all the dimensions, every dimension and the endless dimensions above.
 
Hjdjdhf said:
This is the Chinese version of Beyond Time Chapter 1353, where even machine translation can make it clear that there are endless dimensions here.
Click to expand...
Oh damn, well that is translation error in the English version ig. Can u translate the part where u said it was 1-A +
 
In every dimension, within every concept, and inside every story, they caught up with the mother river spirit, pulling it back from various regions to form it at the center of the altar. — Chapter 1346
Click to expand...
Coming from the depths of nothingness, it instantly pierced through all dimensions and accurately merged into their respective prior incarnation projections. — Chapter 1352
Click to expand...
I am not very familiar with English, so I will try my best to translate.

Hjdjdhf said:
I also said this is 1A+.
Click to expand...
I exist within the wings of Harmonious Morus Alba, yet Harmonious Morus Alba itself exists within whose snap of a finger... If that snapped life looks up, can it see within the blink of another life where it resides? And as that blinking life mocks its world, has it ever realized that its existence might merely lie within a single stroke of a scholar's brush in the sky.
Endless, just as the Dao has no boundary.
Click to expand...
This is my own understanding: the world is merely the world as seen through another's eyes, and this more advanced being is just a painting by a higher-level literati, while the literati's world exists as part of a higher existence's perception—endless in this way.
 
Hjdjdhf said:
I am not very familiar with English, so I will try my best to translate.



This is my own understanding: the world is merely the world as seen through another's eyes, and this more advanced being is just a painting by a higher-level literati, while the literati's world exists as part of a higher existence's perception—endless in this way.
Click to expand...
Aight thanks for translating. Considering the endless dimensions were performed or added near the end of story, xu qing should only be around 1-b to 1- A and the next quote u gave wad from pursuit of truth which shouldn't be considered part of the cosmology, it is just saying that cultivation is endless
 
XuQingXiYi said:
Aight thanks for translating. Considering the endless dimensions were performed or added near the end of story, xu qing should only be around 1-b to 1- A and the next quote u gave wad from pursuit of truth which shouldn't be considered part of the cosmology, it is just saying that cultivation is endless
Click to expand...

Brother, the endless Dimensions are just part of the 下行 Saturn Ring, or even not equal to the entire 下行 Saturn Ring. The Saturn Ring consists of the 下行 Saturn Ring plus the 上行 Saturn Ring.
无论是许青还是德罗子，都可以穿梭时光，进入不同时间的不同位面，甚至不仅仅是上行......
下行，依旧如此。
甚至到了最后，在许青一次次追上与出手中，德罗子在这极致的危险里，选择了分化!
Click to expand...
 
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Hjdjdhf said:
Brother, the endless Dimensions are just part of the 下行 Saturn Ring, or even equal to the entire 下行 Saturn Ring. The Saturn Ring consists of the 下行 Saturn Ring plus the 上行 Saturn Ring.
Click to expand...
That would just mean xu qing is 1-A right since he is half formless truth which is above God venerable which is above paragon which is above the 9th step summer immortals which are the peak of thick Saturn Ring
 
XuQingXiYi said:
That would just mean xu qing is 1-A right since he is half formless truth which is above God venerable which is above paragon which is above the 9th step summer immortals which are the peak of thick Saturn Ring
Click to expand...
I have some things to attend to this afternoon，replying to you now

First, I missed an English word. In fact, what I want to express is that the endless Dimensions is smaller than the 下行 Saturn Ring .

Second, there is no need to discuss it. I see the administrator above has said that the fourth step is high 1-B. The fifth step is low 1-A.

Thirdly, you can edit your post; it's obvious that it cannot be H1C.
 
Hjdjdhf said:
I have some things to attend to this afternoon，replying to you now

First, I missed an English word. In fact, what I want to express is that the endless Dimensions is smaller than the 下行 Saturn Ring .

Second, there is no need to discuss it. I see the administrator above has said that the fourth step is high 1-B. The fifth step is low 1-A.

Thirdly, you can edit your post; it's obvious that it cannot be H1C.
Click to expand...
Ahh I see yeah I should probably change it
 
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