This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
I did ask for it to be changed to a staff discussion thread twice. Glassman did say he'll be giving his thoughts eventually, so I'm waiting on that for the time being, while drafting the final reply to Marshadow.
Took me a couple of days to fully read and digest everything.
I didnt see any problems or inconsistencies (especially after reading the replies).
Gotta say though its unfortunate that this thread is getting a bit clogged up from those who sent these so called 'debunks' that are surface level/debunks that are taken completely out of context, Type Moon fans are really tired of these, like imagine everyone started agreeing that the verse caps out at light speed just because BB said servants SG will break if they reach light speed. like its getting tiresome, but i digress.
Overall, I agree with the conclusions of the thread. appreciate the effort Shin put into compiling and explaining all of this.
If there are still broken image links i'll try to point them out.
So overall it should be pretty clear Archetype is operating on a scale that's even beyond the multiverses/Compiled Events themselves. Which should clear the most strict qualification for 1-A.
Oh yeah, I'll be summarising the proposal and compressing everything. Including clarifying everything certain terminology used, why it was used, and what it is meant to indicate. And after that, the staff can evaluate.
@ShinMaximillion Do you want me to change the thread to staff discussion to avoid any future clutter and wait for the staff to give their inputs when they get the chance or is there still any remaining discussions that need to be concluded before the move?
@ShinMaximillion Do you want me to change the thread to staff discussion to avoid any future clutter and wait for the staff to give their inputs when they get the chance or is there still any remaining discussions that need to be concluded before the move?
I don't think you need to respond to Wankbreaker's sock account given he's already permabanned for using alts. You're better off saving your energy for anyone that isn't banned that has some questions or disagreements. Either way moving this thread to Staff Discussion, any normal users need permission from staff to comment on this thread.
By ignorance, he likens the Root to being karma in a non-trivial manner. And cites this evidence
First Image:"That's right. It helps that you're quick to catch on. 'Sight,' 'Hearing,' 'Smell,' 'Taste,' and 'Touch'—the five consciousnesses that govern the human senses. Add to that the surface 'Mind' of a human, along with the deep psychological 'Manas consciousness' and 'Alaya consciousness.' The idea is that these eight consciousnesses form everything in the world."There were some unfamiliar terms.To clear up my confusion, I asked: "Manas? Alaya?""Yeah, those two are what you'd call the deep psyche. Manas is literally the deep consciousness that influences the surface mind. It's the flow of the heart. Alaya is... let's see, it's the 'Root'."
By his stroke of ignorance, not understanding Buddhist allegory. Because the 8th consciousness, Alaya, has a dual aspect, one is Alaya-unconditioned and Alaya-Vijnana, which is reciprocal to karmic seeds. The impurities of the karmic seeds don't impede Alaya-unconditioned even when it encompasses them. Now I absolutely agree, in relation to mankind, the Swirl of the Root is Alaya, for Ryougi Shiki, it has been identified as an even higher consciousness level anyway. It is the ninth level of consciousness in Buddhism, Amala-Vijnana, considered beyond the storehouse consciousness (Alaya-Vijnana).
Now I identify the Root with Alaya-Vijnana in relation to mankind as much as the story does, because it is up to the subject to contemplate to come into contact with their true self.
Aoko gives us the only example of what it is like to come into contact with the Root. Kara no Kyoukai tells us that for one to come into contact with the Root, one must become ignorance, but in ignorance one never realises they have reached it. Shiki Ryougi is naturally close to death, and possesses eyes that allow her to see the death of all things from the Root. Ontop of possessing an underlying persona that remains in communion with emptiness, she was capable of retaining that memory (Amala-Vijnana advantages as the superior consciousness).
That's why I emphasised the concept of the soul as receiving "thoughts from the end of the world", because how consciousness progresses towards completion is by seeing yourself directly as unified with the world. We already know this, because the notion of common sense being mysteries in the Age of Gods meant that the Root was a common place and many were connected directly to it. Gods and Divine Spirits are one such example, remember I do mention in op that they are an equivalent of True Magic in their existence and authorities. They are also noted to be largely connected to the Root
“The magecraft from the Age of the Gods allows people to directly access the authority of Divine Spirits. And since Divine Spirits are close to the Root, mages won’t have to search for the Root anymore.” My mentor explained.Lord El-Melloi Case Files - Volume 10
Her perception expanded as she stabilized as a Divine Spirit. Now, connected to the Root, time no longer mattered. She was now able to search for a point in the past while remaining in the present; not because she could see the past, but because she could see everything in the instant that her divine Saint Graph was compressed back into the form of a Ghost Liner. Lord El-Melloi Melloi Case Files - Volume 10
Directly adjacent to the Buddhist allegory regarding the dual nature of Alaya-Vijnana
The Manas, backed by the Alaya, has been the seat of desire or thirst (trishna), karma, and ignorance. The seeds grow out of them and are deposited in the Alaya. When the waves are stirred up in the Alaya ocean by the wind of objectivity, so interpreted by the Manas, these seeds give a constant supply to the uninterrupted flow of the Vijnana-waters. In this general turmoil in which we sentient beings are all living, the Alaya is as responsible as the Manas; for if the Alaya refused to take the seeds that are sent up from the region of the Vijnana, Manas may not have opportunities to exercise its two fundamental functions, willing and discriminating. But at the same time, it is due to the Alaya's self-purifying nature that a great catastrophe takes place in it, known as "turning-back". With this "turning-back" in the Alaya, Manas, so intimately in relation with it, also experiences a transformation in its fundamental attitude towards the Vijnanas. The latter are no longer regarded as reporters of an external world which is characterised by individuality and manifoldness. This position is now abandoned, the external world is no longer adhered to as such, that is, as reality; for it is no more than a mere reflection of the Alaya. The Alaya has been looking at itself in the Manas' mirror. There has been from the very first nothing other than itself. Hence, the doctrine of Mind-only (cittamatra), or the Alaya-only.
“The Counter Force is extremely thorough in preventing the path from being reached. This is because it’s a power that humans should not possess, an act that serves as the means to regress into nothingness. “Once an individual human is complete, the meaning of their existence will disappear. At long last, one could escape from this burning house of worldly desires. And yet the masses of humans unconsciously refuse to achieve completion simply because they want to live. All humans, the moment they think of themselves as ‘human,’ become less than beasts . Though they live in order to achieve completion, they refuse completion for the sake of survival. Humanity’s beginnings have always been a paradox.
The paradox is that everything moves towards unity as its realisation, and this is a regress back to the origin: Nothingness. But the nothingness is indivisible, and cannot be abstracted nor determinate, it is「」 and so reaching the Root, one comes into contact with their ideal realisation in magecraft. So for mankind, to come into contact with the Root is simply to see oneself through yourself (world). Because the world is always seeing itself through itself, and is naturally connected to the Root.
Although what grants True Magic is communion with the Akashic Records. Because that's where all knowledge is recorded in a complete activity, and when humans come into contact with the Root, they momentarily experience the truth of the entire world. And what remains after is a trace of the Swirl of the Root, and this is True Magic.
These are miracles that introduce changes to the system of the Celestial Body, the actualisation of human potential. It even occurs with Third Magic, whereby the mages, upon having lost Third Magic. Defined the soul through pseudo-spiritrons, the digitisation of the soul by sending the output destination of consciousness from the soul to the Mooncell. Modern magecraft was capable of defining the soul through the lens of pseudo-spiritrons, to replace the significance of Third Magic.
In the Servantverse, Third Magic is just a natural law, for example.
Ignoring the rest of the arguments, since the conclusion is just nothing is deterministic through a misunderstanding of how Buddhist allegory applies to Type Moon, moving on to another problem.
In which he cites this statement of Nasu explaining the Swirl of the Root
Q: When all’s said and done, what was the Root that Araya sought? <Canon>Nasu: The end of history, and a record of humanity’s merit. Which is to say, it’s the “observation of everything, from start to finish”.Takeuchi: Hmm… It’s the same with novels, manga, and anime, right? If you don’t read or watch all the way to the end, you can’t properly evaluate the work.Nasu: That’s putting it too plainly, but you have the gist of it. Only, there’s no guarantee an individual will reach that “end”…
Even at the level of Amala-Vijnana, all it designates is the highest resonance a living being can have with the Root. Power with a distance nearly infinitesimal to that of the Root, well, the Akashic Records in any case.
Shiki's Origin is less of something like the Root but the primary Archetype of it, so naturally it is akin to the directionality of all directionalities (the Akashic Records itself). That's why her fulfilment doesn't involve receiving a trace of the Root, but full on knowledge of all possible things that have existed in relation to the Akashic Records.
While Archetype: Earth is defined as the "one who keeps the memories of the plane" , she explicitly demonstrates a lack of omniscience regarding human events. In fact, she is entirely ignorant of human customs like Valentine's Day and has to ask for explanations, admitting that her imagination has limits and that she doesn't know how to handle the situation. Furthermore, Kukulkan (an Archetype herself) openly admits to lacking common sense and knowledge, stating, "If I said 'I have no common sense in society!' I would cause trouble..." (社会常識ありません！なんて言ったら...).
Also, both Arcueid’s are shocked when A2 says she can make chocolate from scratch without using Marble Phantasm, or “cheating”, in their words. They know of the result, but not the process in which to make it. (Sound familiar?) A1, the soul of the planet, even gets frustrated after attempting to produce chocolate with her own hands and says to recount to her only the outcome of the scenario.
Another example of Wankbreaker arguing in all dishonesty, specifically by ignoring all the entire quotes that were laid out before him in the series itself to push an agenda, would never cease to amuse.
Anyway, I'll make this one short before going back to what I was talking about, which is more important than something the game itself tells you isn't the case. I'm assuming he's simply trying to say that propositional isn't experiential, hence Ascension 1 =/= Ascension 2 =/= Ascension 3, except he's making a vast mistake in presuming how their very nature works.
I'm surprised he even bothered making a dichotomy between Archetype: Earth and Arcueid, because they make it clear that they're all one and the same. In relation to the dreamer and the brain that dreamt.
Given how he blatantly ignored scans from what Type Moon tells us, I'll be posting them in abundance.
I am not prepared to lay down any hard and fast line of demarcation between possession and paranoia. Possession can be formulated as the identity of the ego-personality with a complex.
A common instance of this is identity with the persona, which is the individual’s system of adaptation to, or the manner he assumes in dealing with, the world. Every calling or profession, for example, has its own characteristic persona. It is easy to study these things nowadays, when the photographs of public personalities so frequently appear in the press. A certain kind of behaviour is forced on them by the world, and professional people endeavour to come up to these expectations. Only, the danger is that they become identical with their personas—the professor with his text- book, the tenor with his voice. Then the damage is done; henceforth, he lives exclusively against the background of his own biography.For by that time it is written: “… then he went to such and such a place and said this or that,” etc. Collected Works of C.G. Jung, Volume 9 (Part 1): Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious
Ciel gives us an exposition into Arcueid's nature in OC3 that he chooses to blatantly miss out on or choose to ignore, as usual.
Does she have anything like dual personalities?
Ciel
Well, maybe you're not that far off the mark.
She has multiple roles...or more like, personas for those roles. Ordeal Call 3
Essentially, Ascension 3 is the younger form of Ascension 1, and the OP post itself proves this with a quote related to the very same.
Ascension 3 was created purely as a sense of nature on Earth, nothing more, to fulfil her obligations. However, over time, this very same entity grows up to become the Ascension 1, numb and easier to respond to all stimuli, thus her 'emotions', in response to all stimuli, take root in time, that we are familiar with, the future form. It is in this form that, as the Crimson Moon, described as the Inner Sea of the Planet itself or Soul of the Planet, starts to emerge and take form, the circumstances relating to the message below
"Hmm. If your words hold truth, then this existence being here is indeed logical.…I see. This being is merely a virtual image of potential. It was I who overestimated my station. To think I spoke of dominating 'That One'..."
"No, do not despair. If Arcueid Brunestud remains chained, she will eventually abandon her name. Once that happens, the body reduced to emptiness will become yours. You commanded me to 'set her free,' but the opposite is required. To ensure Crimson Moon's rebirth, she must remain restrained."
Kagetsu Tohya - Crimson Moon side story
Such is why she does not possess a name in FGO, the vessel in which she was to manifest as the future of Ascension 3.
Ascension 1: Name I have none… Nay—rather, I shall someday be granted one, but ‘tis too early as I am now. Hence, I bid thee address me simply by ‘princess’.
This is the reason for her title in FGO specifically "True Ancestor Princess", do note this is stated out to be her name, instead of the title that usually is, that is- instead of "Arcueid" or "True Ancestor Arcueid" that she's referred to as when exchanging consciousness with her manifestations. Ascension 3 is the culmination of her role as a child, or touch of nature, thus having shed her own proper name and individuality to which she was raised, to follow her obligations set forth, as is the case with the persona of Ascension 3.
This is another reason as to why, when Ascension 1 manifests, she retains her name, being True Ancestor Arcueid or simply Arcueid, instead of it being "True Ancestor Princess", the vessel her 'true self' manifests in, possessing her name still due to the circumstances that Melty Blood Actress Again puts forth. As could be seen by her being referred to as 真祖アルクエイド (True Ancestor Arcueid) or simply アルクェイド (Arcueid).
The True Ancestor Princess (A1) is the source of all other Arcueid’s, and at least in the valentines event, that quality has not diminished in the slightest, as she speaks of herself in the present tense. She is still acting as the dreaming stone.
It's still insane to me how this dude sneakily tries to establish a dichotomy between the A2 and A1 and A3, alongside the "dreaming stone" that he mentions, there is only one single quote that mentions the 'dreaming stone', which explicitly says she's not another personality or being, but that her essence is the same to that of Arcueid.
True Ancestor Arcueid
Archetype:Earth
The brain of the planet. The dreaming stone. Her form is that of the purest true ancestor. Her hair that was stolen by a certain dead apostle is back, though as a one time exception to the norms. Although her principles of conduct are different compared to that of Arcueid, she is not another personality, her essence is the same as that of Arcueid.
The Princess of the True Ancestors. Arcueid's true form. That which shows her side as the touch of the planet as the True Ancestor of highest grade of purity. Not an alter ego of Arcueid, but one and the same as the normal her. This version of her temporarily borrowed this body. For Arcueid (her body) to become this form, she must take back her stolen hair.
Wankbreaker ignoring statements put forth by Nasu— Count: 2
Call me Brunestud/Crimson Moon
The Other True Heroine.
Crimson Moon.
The Princess of the Millenium Castle.
The entity that lies deep within Arcueid's consciousness ergo Type: Moon. Arcueid's alternate persona. Colloquially also known as "Princess Arc"
A boss character. Although they share the same origin, her character performance and persona act more differently.
Wankbreaker ignoring statements put forth by Nasu— Count: 3
A state in which the "Crimson Moon" aspect dwelling within Arcueid's deep subconscious has strongly manifested. In this form, she can exercise 100% of the abilities she originally possesses. Unlike her usual self, she speaks in a haughty tone befitting royalty, but on the inside, she is the very same person.
Wankbreaker ignoring statements put forth by Nasu— Count: 4
Ciel: "Is this what they call an origin awakening?"
Archetype Earth: "Not true. We are a single entity. It is simply that the intervals between my awakeningis vastly large. The will of my existence far surpasses your kind."
Wankbreaker ignoring statements put forth by not only Nasu but the character herself– Count: 5
A special guest who has come specifically to celebrate FGO's seventh anniversary. Although her appearance and personality may change significantly between Spirit Origins, they are all still the same person.
Wankbreaker ignoring statements put forth by Nasu— Count: 6
If the correlation between the dreamer and the primate species wasn't emphasised enough in the subsequent posts, then I'll recall to it that Ascension 3 makes it blatant that she doesn't seem to be the Brain of the Planet anymore, nor can her existence be capable of dreaming in her dislikes.
Ascension 1 likewise tells us she is no longer the soul of the planet, due to Ascension 3's servant vessel. I believe this has already been emphasised enough, but her servant vessel lacks the World Egg frame, so the point is entirely moot. Each of the Arcueids (brain) carries out a specific role for themselves, as respective personas to the soul of the planet, to her true nature/true self.
True Ancestor Princess Ye are, let us say, the minds formed by the vessel,while I am the archetype used for the vessel's creation.True Ancestor Princess As your minds falter, I sameself—no, perhaps I overspeak,but it beeth something of the same nature that cometh to the surface.
As one would expect, Ascension 2 carries out the function of the knowledge of experience, which they note in her profile, likening it to the fact she prefers fighting opponents up and close, while other Ascension(s) only choose the process of usage of MP as is, which is a characteristic of Ascension 3, leading to Ascension 1, as Archetype Ascension 3 does not possess free will nor the imagination. She can only make do with things as they are when materialising them.
Those what-ifs were tales of parallel worlds. Images of the future that had occurred on a number of Earths other than myself. Unlike the free-spirited me, I haven't much in the way of imagination. Therefore, I could only materialize what actually happened.
Ordeal Call 3
She, as a persona and aspect of Arcueid, deals in declarative knowledge solely, whereas Ascension 2 deals with knowledge that is implicit. They (personas) are the brains of the vessel, whereas the soul is akin to the concept of an individuated true self, but is subject to change in the vessel she manifests, which is why she tells us she's an inexistent what if (Ascension 3 future) in relation to the vessel she manifested in.
The reason why Arcueid Ascension 2 can dream, whereas Ascension 3 cannot, is that she, as a persona, doesn't possess the subjective experiences to do so. The level of consciousness that Arcueid possesses did not allow her to experience emotions as a subject/agent (more on this later)
Arcueid
I'm a True Ancestor who dreams quite a bit, you know?
Arcueid
I've been seeing all sorts of dreams since way back, so I thought maybe something like this is fine too.
It's quite akin to how "Ryougi Shiki" begins without intellect and completes herself by the creation of Yin and Yang, both 'personalities' accumulating intelligence forward, thus one being more powerful at birth, vice versa with the other.
Anyway, with that infuriating argument out of the way. Back to the Maris bits mentioned by Marshadow, as one could look at the Maris identity statements and wonder about how many ways I could resolve that tension. Perhaps.. Some nuance is missing, perhaps.
Associations of the Soul and Spiritrons as synonymous come from the fact that spiritrons are described as the true essence of all things defined under the soul. That's all, it says "under the soul," not defined as the soul.
The meaning of that existence—“Spiritron Structure is the ‘essence of a thing,’ defined on the basis of that soul.”Intelligent lifeforms—mainly Wizards—maintain their appearance in the digital world by forming a strong connection with this Spiritron Structure.
Spiritron Structure [Concept] (Reishi Kōzō), also called Soul Qualia.
In a digital realm, the shapes of things can change with ease.Inside SE.RA.PH, where even the flow of time is not constant, no stable or fixed value truly exists. However, there is one thing that does not change, no matter what form or size it may transform into: the soul, said to exist on a higher dimension.
The meaning of that existence—“Spiritron Structure is the ‘essence of a thing,’ defined on the basis of that soul.”Intelligent lifeforms—mainly Wizards—maintain their appearance in the digital world by forming a strong connection with this Spiritron Structure.
The very citations that associate the soul with spiritrons explicate on the soul being unchanging and existing in a higher dimension (the Inner Sea). Not only that, but they also make it clear that spiritrons are defined on the basis of the soul. They are not defined as souls; their meaning entirely depends on the soul. All they are is an information medium that carries the waves the soul outputs.
If you look even deeper at the implications of "it is identical to the Soul of the Planet", in spite of this. It is the equivalent of claiming Maris Chaldeas is what the Soul of the Planet is meaningfully not.
If the Soul of the Planet, besides its functionality, is an existentially pure substance, then the moment an identity relation that does not take into account, so much as it does of the function of the substance, then it cannot be used to delimit the substance (identity) of the Soul of the Planet.
Saying otherwise is like claiming Maris Chaldeas is like what the Soul of the Planet is not, because this interpretation relies on a category error to begin with. Again, this is only the case because you love creating interpretative problems that you yourself can never resolve. Even if it meant you had to rewrite your belief systems in seconds, minutes, hours and at worst, a single week.
The actual genius of Marisbury is his sidestepping of the problems of reaching True Magic or at least a path to the Root, using technology granted a self-generating technology, too.
Its prototype was secretly cast at the offshore oil-field base Seraphix.From the ocean floor, the planet’s inner sea of stars was investigated and contacted;128 Rayshift-compatible individuals were linked to Earth’s waveform,and the duplicated waveform became the core of Chaldeas.
Chaldeas was created by contact with the output waves of the souls of 128 humans. All souls already exist in and are unified with the Inner Sea itself, so contact with them was no different from indirect contact with the Soul of the Cosmos. Marisbury, instead of taking the time to contemplate and find his own path to the Root, created a functional copy of the Soul of the Cosmos. Because it imitates its functions, it imitates the very functions that granted the Soul of the Cosmos a path to the Root, the functions that made the Inner Sea True Magic itself. So it became Root-like, since True Magic is just contact with the Root through a path, and it leaves a trace of itself as that which reshapes the word "impossible"
For two thousand years, the Animusphere family dreamed—an imagined vision—and continued to wish for a miracle that would reach the Root
This effectively made Chaldeas the miracle that was considered a path to the Root. Because Celestial Bodies are already Root-like, as I outlined in Touko's statements, Chaldeas became Root-like and ended up mirroring the Root as the only thing within its own cosmos. And because it was also the only thing within its own world (a world that had yet to take root in reality from fantasy), it functionally became the Root itself within its own cosmos.
Achieved not by creating another Root, but by reflecting inside Chaldeas, its apparent functions in any case. Which isn't saying much. It doesn't provide a meaningful identity relationship between both in terms of ontology.
That is precisely why in spite of that, one of them is not omniscient. And what is not omniscient is neither the Root nor the Celestial Egg. But even that is a step below the entirety of the Inner Sea
Phase Slip Swordmanship: B+
A sword style crafted for vampire extermination, forged by a monk who proclaimed, "The soul is sound." While the soul, a higher-dimensional entity, is impervious to direct manipulation, its waves can be perceived. This impact transmission technique, a breach into divine domains, delivers a physical blow capable of penetrating the ethereal. For vampires, blood and the soul are synonymous. Thus, an undead struck by this sword would suffer the depletion of its internal blood (life stock). Given the creator being a swordsman, its efficacy seems to be intrinsically linked to the sword.
Note: Big Mr T, Telomera, did the goofy mistake of thinking that by "self-contemplative" and pure activity, I mean at a Tier 0 level.
As the spoiler tag and the note mention, this has to do with 1-A/High 1-A levels, not Tier 0. This is actually why the last memory of the world, existing in the deepest Inner Sea of them all, was not taught its own significance and nothing about things such as humans. It wasn't because she had no means to "know emotions"; herein, it simply means the level of consciousness that Arcueid possessed did not allow her to experience emotions as a reaction to a separable object or subject/agent, relating to my Arcueid post above. Emotions come after Manas-Vijnana, not even Alaya-Vijnana, the most foundational layer of human consciousness in Type Moon, possesses emotions.
“This force is an unconscious collective of humanity itself, including A, that wishes to preserve its own existence. To protect humanity, this entity manifests itself, without anyone knowing, and it erases A without anyone being able to observe it. The representative created by the swirling subconscious of humanity is part of the unconscious, and therefore acts without its own conscious will.Kara no Kyoukai - Volume 1 - Spiral Paradox
It is an unconscious collective of humanity itself, a karmic seed that desires to self-perpetuate civilisation; it is a representative of the subconscious of humanity swirling and acts without its own conscious will.
“... If you talk about it like this it seems like some guardian of humanity, but this thing has no human emotions. There are times when it blocks acts that would make everyone happier. The tricky thing is that in the end this nuisance is the representation of humanity itself.
It has no emotions of its own, so it does not even act for the good of mankind but for the preservation of its ego. As long as there's the most efficient way to perpetuate the existence of the ego for humanity.
This was about activity as self-directing, which situates motion (potency) and the actualisation/fulfilment/realisation of motion (actuality) as two poles of the same activity. Hence, "Pure Activity", because it is self-productive and partially self-sufficient because of that.
Because, unlike Aristotelian metaphysics, which it seems Telomera is mistaking for what is being used for the discourse about the Celestial here. Self-directing activity is not unique to just the Prime Mover, but three distinct hypostaseis in Neoplatonism (Soul: around 1-A/High 1-A, Nous: High 1-A Type 2, the Hen/One: Tier 0). And they are hypostaseis because they are a level where activity becomes self-contemplative, and this is only possible if the self-contemplative principle has no parts separable from its existence and, by extension, has an activity beyond extensionality (material and spatial extension).
You see, whether the specimen is immutable or not, there's no such thing as eternity, correct? Why? It's simple. We are cut off from the external world. Understand, Shiki? Eternity is formless. An event unaffected by the observer's perception, but one that dominates the observer itself. That's the only phenomenon worthy of being called eternal, the only true record.”Kara No Kyoukai - Volume 2 - Oblivion Recording
Beings can't reach the Eternity that is the Inner Sea/Soul of Cosmos/Celestial Egg, but the moment agents begin to externalise their understanding of the world. Because at that level, beings come to be cut off from the external world.
This is also why I went out of my way to explain True Magic and the Inner Sea in a manner that keeps both entangled, because at that level, all things are unified and exist as one part of another
Heaven and earth once were one.T h e land where mankind took root was a mirror image of the celestial sphere.T h ey formed a Trinity, although not the one that the term is normally interpreted as.In the ancient times, all was connected as one, and was expressed as merged parts of the gods.
Heaven and Earth are one, and mankind exists as a direct mirror image of the Celestial Sphere. Mankind, the Celestial and Gods formed a tri-unity, and everything exists as merged (unified) parts of Gods.
If a phenomenon can be achieved—no matter how difficult—through sufficient time or resources, then it is not considered Magic.In the early days of human civilization, when knowledge was still young, all magecraft was considered Magic.
I mean, even the concept of 'True Magic' didn't exist; all of magecraft itself was True Magic as per several mats, here Fate/Complete Material III. The separation of True Magic and Magecraft begins only when modern humans come to be, and when experiential knowledge (scientific knowledge) departs in its meaning from contemplative knowledge (knowledge-through-contemplation/unity).
The external world is always ambiguous—it’s only within each individual’s brain that ambiguity becomes something definite.Kara no Kyoukai - Oblivion Recording
The external world (the material world or the world as externalised from the self) is always ambiguous and indeterminate; it is the human brain that stabilises that ambiguity into something definite.
But humans… we’re creatures that don’t even need bodies, aren’t we?As long as we have a brain, we’re complete.In the end, it’s just the electrical signals in our brains that make up our world. Kara no Kyoukai - Oblivion Recording
All that exists is consciousness/mind, an already complete/perfect hypostasis. And it is the electrical signs it receives from the soul, that that make up or create the external [material] universe.
Personality, body—they’re nothing more than decorations that make the self easier to understand.
If there’s anything that truly leaves a trace, it exists only inside this head. Because reality is fundamentally composed of consciousness, the only Eternal in the material is the subjective experience of consciousness, archetypal patterns or ideas within the storehouse of consciousness.
The Soul, sometimes referred to as the true self by Touko on numerous occasions. In its essential aspect exists in an higher-dimension.
There is no need to answer. That is the soul. It does not belong to the laws of the material world to which the body is bound, but to something above that—the record of a substance belonging to the concept of the astral plane, the memory of the world itself. …Yes, if the soul remains intact, then even if the body, the genes, or the cells are lost, one would be able to restore what they once were. Fate/Stay Night - Heavens Feel
Something that does not belong to the material to which the body is bound, but something beyond that. The record (memory) of a substance that belongs to the astral world. It is a memory of the world itself, for each particular existent things of reality. In other words, a soul is the activity of a substance that belongs Inner Sea. Existing as part of the Planet's Self-Contemplative activity.
"All human consciousness ultimately converges into the same lake at its deepest layer—or so the idea goes. As a Buddhist monk, you should understand this. It’s not Gaia-theory-like deterrence; instead, it’s the deterrence rooted in the familiar ideology of the Primates. It’s an unconscious alignment of shared opinion that must exist." Kara no Kyoukai - Volume 2 - Spiral Paradox
Which is why the total sum of consciousness of humanity is such that it converges at its deepest layer, the Alaya-Vijnana, another aspect of the mind of the World itself. Intermingled with the Planet's Self-Contemplative activity, it serves as the seat of records of mankind's achievements and realisations (perfections). An essence of mankind that has spiritual ranking on par with Archetypal Beings of the Inner Sea.
Ontologically speaking, above my identity as an individual, there exists a broader existence: ‘Aozaki Tōko as she exists within the world.’If one addresses that version of me, then no matter what personal will I might have, I cannot resist.To deny that would be to refuse to exist in this world itself.Kara no Kyoukai - Oblivion Recording
There is also a distinction between the soul as it experiences the material world, and the soul as it exists inward-oriented within the world, unified with the self-contemplative activity of the Planet.
You see, memory isn’t only stored by humans.The world itself also records memory.It’s a concept similar to the Akashic Records, though what he taps into is a lower-order wave phenomenon than that.Kara no Kyoukai - Oblivion Recording
Mankind is said to receive thoughts as returning from the end of the world. Within the world, the fate of all instances of an individual in all parallel worlds exists as a memory of the world itself. Much to its self-contemplative activity, it is likened in principle to the Akashic Records, but is a lower-order wave-based phenomenon. And this part in particular is important, because the reason why there's this certain degree of symmetry between the Akashic Records and the Celestial Egg is that both of them are self-enclosed systems that unfold outward to disclose the potentialities of things already actual within the system itself. And this is only possible because both are self-contemplative, self-grounding and self-relation with respect to the beings they ground.
In magecraft theory, this dual experience of the soul within the Inner Sea, and the soul within the material world, is likened to the difference between the two aspects of the soul in Daoist philosophy—hun and Po.
Is this even possible?, questioned Jester, the denier of Human Order. She must have a limit to how much power she can exert. Otherwise, the cumulative strains are bound to make this very world reject her. Although... This monster of a god probably doesn’t mind the rejection.
The extent of humanity's transcendental unconscious spirit is such that it rejects the existence of gods, if they so happen to exercise too much of their authority within the material world.
However, if his manipulations go too far against the natural order, Tezcatlipoca himself will be penalised. When the sun no longer reflects off his obsidian right leg, Tezcatlipoca will lose his Divinity, and will become a normal human.
If not, the Gods become penalised and can be degraded from archetypal logos status to becoming a regular human. The effect is not applied to the concept the god embodies or is, as such, but degrades the "God(Tezcatlipoca)", but "Concept(Tezcatlipoca)" remains, as the essence of the God prior to gaining ego: the Ego of the God associated with the concept he is, not the concept itself.
Suddenly, the doors of the keep burst open right in front of the magi still on the ground. From the lobby within, and from the statues in the front garden, something invisible came pouring out. No, as magi, it was something the people gathered there could see. Spirits. But they were different from simple souls belonging to ordinary people. It might have been better to describe them as the leftover energy, an old recording of a personality. For example, in Chinese Taoism, the ' soul ' was divided into two parts: the ' ethereal soul, ' which supported the mind and consciousness, and the ' corporeal soul, ' which supported the body and its functions. The spirits now covering the grounds of the Castle could be completely described as the latter. These spirits were almost entirely corporeal souls. " Ahh, so that's what they meant by angels, " Lord El - Melloi II muttered. Ever since arriving at the Castle of Separation, all of the magi had felt the sensation of being watched by the angels. What if that was more than just their imaginations? The master of the Castle, as the Master of Restoration, had no doubt brought many magi here. Among them, how many had had their Crests repaired, and how many had been harvested for raw materials?
Proposed by Chinese Philosophy, the soul in magecraft theory is conceived of as having two aspects. The electromagnetic waves it receives are causally grounded by the soul, the corporeal soul po. Because it is purely the mind as it outputs its awareness into the corporeal world, in death, it ceases to be. Hun is the incorporeal, the activity that animates all of its instances across all parallel worlds. When a human dies, the soul loses its link to the material world, reverting its field of consciousness inward again.
Even if I gathered hundreds of deaths, indeed, I was merely chasing after the number of deaths.It could not be fulfilled—of course.But there is also a truth that you could never know.I believed that if I experienced tens of thousands of different human deaths, within them there would be a diffusion of souls that connects to the Origin.But that way, one cannot reach the Root. Kara no Kyoukai - Spiral Paradox
This is described phenomenologically as the soul undergoing diffusion, so as to gain a path to the Root. Because at the level of the Inner Sea, all things are already directly connected to the Root. All thinking is meditative and contemplative, inward-oriented.
When it is called a record, it is insofar as it is an activity [directionality].
These are possibilities that exist in every being, for every being, these are meant to be all your possibilities. Melty Blood - Back Alley Nightmare
It is for this reason that possibilities are inherent within a person; every existing individual across all parallel worlds has their own directionality. These are the possibilities inherent to them, but because the True Reality is an internally coherent self-contemplative activity. It is also semantically holistic (only capable of making sense not by its parts but as a whole), capable of only being made coherent by the interrelational nature of things of the Inner Sea.
If one oneself can become this “hollow,” then one can know everything about the universe. Fate/Grand Order - Maris Chaldeas profile
Which is why to be the Celestial Egg is to know everything about the universe, something only possible through the complete self-contemplative and pure noesis of the Celestial Egg (clearly, Maris failed in this department, as only a functional copy of the substance that is the Celestial Egg). Every other creature of the True Reality, except for the True Ancestors, only has partial parts of the entire self-contemplation. Like Leibniz's monads, they only represent a partial view of the entire universe, archetypally so. The Celestial Egg, internally complete and perfect, is also a place for all things of the outward textures to come to be. Every being of the Inner Sea and thereby souls of creatures like humans, internally contains all their potentiality of all its imitations of the surface "material" world, yet simultaneously in-of-itself is the perfection of all potentialities that flow outward to the material world as waves.
Which is why it is described as thoughts returning to the end of the world "Inner Sea", because the Planet remembers all things that have existed on it and all that will.
Eternity must be restored to its rightful place. I shall retrieve your sorrow. Forget as you may, those memories of yours will always be recorded within you,” he said.
The Soul within the Inner Sea, never 'forgets' whatever it knows. It is an Eternity that is complete in itself, a being dwelling in the world of eternal cycles in the True Reality.
That is only a lapse in your recollection. Although I am unable to record them, people's memories never truly disappear," he continued. "If you can't recall them, then that means they are lost," I replied. "Forgetting is a result of deterioration. Memories are never lost, they only fade away until they are nothing more than junk. Do you not find it a waste? Eternal though they may be, we allow them to rust of our own volition. Eternal though they may be, we allow them to wither to dust of our own volition,” he said. I offered no answer. Kara no Kyoukai - Oblivion Recording
Forgetting is an accident of the soul as it experiences the world, the finite brain deteriorating in its capacity to hold a given memory. And remember, even when one forgets as they experience the world, the memories of that person always remain as a record within the Soul and if you consider that thoughts are things that return from the end of the universe, and we already know thoughts are received through electromagneticism in the brain as a shadow cast within the Inner Sea. So if you consider both statements, the natural conclusion is that memories and thoughts are already complete within the Soul, and by "thoughts returning from the end of the universe", the intended description here is to say the human brain, animated by the soul, evolves towards the fulfilment already inherent within the Soul at birth.
So the Soul is a particular fragment or fractal of an already complete/actual whole, which is the Inner Sea.
‘The absence of eternity... is itself eternal.’ Kara no Kyoukai - Oblivion Recording
This has the effect that in the existing between the boundary of remembrance and forgetting, consciousness, once it touches upon the material world, is the absence of eternity as eternal itself. All beings, as the dual Alaya-Vijnana, continue to forget as they are born to experience or remember the world.
On the one hand, “samsaric” viññan.a constitutes one of the preconditions for any “cognitive” viññan.a to occur in the first place, since sentience is necessarily concomitant with all animate life, that is, only living beings have cognitive awareness. On the other hand, viññan.a as cognitive awareness is at the center of the various processes within which karmic activities arise. That is, cognitive processes typically lead, via afflictive intentions, to the karmic activities that ultimately perpetuate the samsaric “aspect” of viññan.a, which, accordingly, con-tinues in an unbroken stream throughout one’s nearly infinite lifetimes. As we shall see, the complex relationship between these two “aspects” of viññan.a – in conjunction with the karmic activities informed by craving, etc. – forms the cen-ter of a self-perpetuating feedback cycle that is largely explicable in terms of the intradynamics of mind itself.
The Buddhist Unconscious - The Alaya-vijnana in the context of Indian Buddhist Thought
It is much like how karma and discrimination are self-perpetuating in Yogachara Buddhism, through the two Vijnanas: the karmic Vijnana and the cognitive Vijnanas.
Yet here stood Mr. Kurogiri, someone who had. Ms. Touko once told me that while we all have our own wills, something else exists deep within the massive accumulation, known as the Will of the Primates. If someone possessed the capability to observe such a thing, they would be able to blend into the independent memories and consciousnesses of others. Kara no Kyoukai - Oblivion Recording
The totality of human history then comes to be what returns to the transcendent and indivisible spirit that represents all of human existence. The ocean of Alaya-Vijnana grounds the causes and receives the effects of its own causes, the source of all activity as remembrance and all ends as forgetting.
Because this cycle of relation between cognitive Vijnanas and the karmic Vijnana is self-perpetuating, just as it is in Yogachara Buddhism:
Depending on karmic formations (sankhara) viññan.a arises. (S II 2) Depending on eye and forms visual viññan.a arises. (S II 73)That is, cognitive processes typically lead, via afflictive intentions, to the karmic activities that ultimately perpetuate the samsaric “aspect” of viññan.a, which, accordingly, con-tinues in an unbroken stream throughout one’s nearly infinite lifetimes.
The Buddhist Unconscious - The Alaya-vijnana in the context of Indian Buddhist Thought
Which is why it is likened to a paradox, because it is a tension that cannot be solved by the world.
“The Counter Force is extremely thorough in preventing the path from being reached. This is because it’s a power that humans should not possess, an act that serves as the means to regress into nothingness. “Once an individual human is complete, the meaning of their existence will disappear. At long last, one could escape from this burning house of worldly desires. And yet the masses of humans unconsciously refuse to achieve completion simply because they want to live.
Humanity lives for completion, but in completion, there's no meaning of life. Humanity also rejects completion, by affirming life, affirming that "I am"—the initiation of Manas-Vijnana. The individual will to live, and the beginning of ego and ego-substance; the acceptance of the world as external to oneself, much like in Yogachara, once more:
Manas is conscious of the presence behind itself of the Alaya and also of the latter's uninterrupted working on the entire system of the Vijnanas. Reflecting on the Alaya and imagining it to be an ego, Manas clings to it as if it were reality and disposes of the reports of the six Vijnanas accordingly. In other words, Manas is the individual will to live and the principle of discrimination. The notion of an ego-substance is herein established, and also the acceptance of a world external to itself and distinct from itself.
In this case, the moment one thinks of themselves as human, for example, they've achieved termination from the Swirl of the Root. In short, your direct connection to the Root becomes filtered by ego-substance. So the divine turns into a base creature:
All humans, the moment they think of themselves as ‘human,’ become less than beasts . Though they live in order to achieve completion, they refuse completion for the sake of survival. Humanity’s beginnings have always been a paradox... “Humans from the time they’re born are already connected to the Root. Humans have become increasingly complex, diversified, and distanced from the Root; rarely is anyone born with a connection to the Root.
All things are inherently connected to the Root at birth, and as humans grow to be attached to the affirmation of life, the further they distance themselves from the Root.
Returning to the One Reincarnation 【Noble Phantasm Name】Amita Amitāpa…Savior’s great Noble Phantasm. The fullest manifestation of the Chakravartin King.According to Indian Brahmanical thought, all humans are reincarnations of Brahma, meaning that all humanity is in fact the same individual. (Since Indian reincarnation often disregards the linear flow of time, nitpicking this is pointless.) Based on this idea, all of humanity will inevitably attain enlightenment. Why? Because ultimately every person reincarnates as an Awakened One. Fate/Extra Material
For this reason, it can be said that all things are already reincarnations of Brahma, and all of humanity is the same individual (Alaya-Vijnana). Reincarnation avoids the linear flow of time, so in a sense, individual human beings experience suffering. Every single person will reincarnate as an Awakened One; this is tantamount to reaching the Root as a human and awakening the perfection of human potential achievable by a human at that time.
Which is why the divide between the Inner Sea and the Material World is radical.
Servants are fundamentally part of the boundary record layer; they exist as information and concepts, in other words, as souls.
In other words, for Darnic to consume the soul of Lancer, a Servant, without even conducting the ritual was nothing other than a genuine suicidal act. After all, it was the soul of a Heroic Spirit. A vast and enormous soul of the finest quality that could activate the Greater Grail with seven of them. Therefore, it should have been impossible for a human who wasn’t a [vessel] or anything else to consume such a thing. Fate/Apocrypha - Volume 2
Consciousness has two aspects which embrace all states of existence and create all states of existence. They are: (1) the aspect of enlightenment, and (2) the aspect of nonenlightenment. . . . That a man is in samsara results from the fact that his . . . manas [7th consciousness] and . . . vijnana [6th consciousness] develop on the ground of the Storehouse Consciousness (chitta) [Alaya-vijnana, 8th consciousness] . . . because of the aspect of nonenlightenment of the Storehouse Consciousness . . ." The Ocean of Alaya
Whilst records of the Heroic Spirit in general exist particularly within the records of Alaya-Vijnana, they are intrinsically intertwined with the records of the Celestial. Gaia just exists in a higher record interface and contains memories much vaster than those that are relevant to human history.
This transitivity between True Magic, recording and the world as but a sheet of paper is, in general, just how True Magic by itself is.
Effects of True Magic are analogous to Zelretch's Second Magic effects
Karmic Seeds: The weaker the presence of the Root within man is, the stronger the seeds of karma get and the mightier the calamities of karma become. The beasts of humanity are the seeds of karma: humanity's own desire for destruction, becoming mightier as humanity develops. The Mooncancer, a calamity of karma, humanity's refusal to let go of its seat of primacy. The final symbol of their existence upon extinction, the Mooncancer is a testament to what is meant by Alaya being the ultimate form of humanity:
“Although we can’t comprehend it the Counter Force is the ultimate form of the dominant race. Time and time again in the past, this thing appeared in front of Magi who attempted certain experiments, and the Magi were all massacred.” Kara no Kyoukai - Volume 1/ Spiral Paradox
A sign of humanity's capacity to rival True Magic at an unconscious level, because the karmic seeds are merely just the communion between the subject and itself, as reflective of the ego. It is not something separable from the ego, but it is before the ego; before consciousness. The humanity imposing its ego unconsciously and the desires of the subconscious onto the world.
Which is the point of True Magic, to render the impossible possible as far as it can simpliciter; as a brute fact with no justification. It's basically Type Moon's plot device for expressing narrative freedom, without completely trivialising their laws; by establishing a tension between singularities like miracles and the predictable things like the things known to be possible through scientific knowledge. Because it has its ground in the Root, which reshapes the meaning of the word 'impossible' as the greatest mysteries, pinnacle of truth and Magic itself; naturally, nothing is impossible for it.
Which is the point of True Magic, to render the impossible possible as far as it can simpliciter; as a brute fact with no justification. Its basically Type Moon's plot device for expressing narrative freedom, without completely trivialising their laws; by establishing a tension between singularities like miracles and the predictable things like the things known to be possible through scientific knowledge. Because it has its ground in the Root, which reshapes the meaning of the word 'impossible' as the greatest mysteries, pinnacle of truth and Magic itself; naturally nothing is impossible for it.
The Human Incineration by the Mage King was carried out by him alone, but the pruning of events was a collective act of humanity itself, as it was "a page that was burned by the consensus of humanity." This has overwritten the current Earth, effectively hijacking human history. The alternate world operates on the premise of "what if," and it represents a world that actually persisted until 2018 based on that assumption.
Which is why, similar to Zelretch, the collective consensus (Alaya) of humanity pruning universes is like the consensus of mankind purging a page of human history (in a book, of course).
Summoning Heroic Spirits (Spirits of Heroes) Heroic Spirits are beings detached from the timeline, and they can be summoned in any time period, regardless of past or future. Unfortunately, humans cannot summon Heroic Spirits themselves, but only their alter egos, Servants. Incidentally, the information (soul) that makes up the Servant returns to the Servant at the time of the Servant's death, and the Servant's actions can be recorded by the Servant as if it were reading a book.
Fate/complete material III: World material - Records of Heavens Feel - Servant System: Difference between Heroic Spirits and Servants, p.012
Let's just be clear on the definition of "space" and time in metaphysics. Aside from science, the definition of space and time is, in its most abstract sense, the field of relations between numerically separable and distinct objects, and there are many ways to map this. Either through things such as the distance between the two numerically distinct objects. Now we run into an immediate problem when we try to apply this to the Inner Sea.
To begin with, ontologically true magic is just communion with the higher parts of the soul, in simple terms, and phenomenologically it requires the externalisation of the world through the ego, as I've explored beforehand. And the Inner Sea is opposed to this, one must recall once more that the self-relational awareness of the Inner Sea is co-dependent on its existence. That's why its Eternal and self-sufficient, because it is self-thinking (contemplating) manifests aspects of itself like gods, bunrei of itself like fairies and avatars of its will like True Ancestors. And manifests its existence, yet simultaneously, its existence as the Inner Sea is not separable from its activity of contemplation.
This is because activity exists as a result of the Celestial Body (Inner Sea) existing, and conversely, the (Celestial) vessel exists because the activity of the Planet thinking its (Celestial) vessel. That's just the point I was making when exclaiming that True Magic and Inner Sea are non-extensional maximally, because it is baked into the power system. I urge you not to read these statements by counting how many buzzwords one can pick out to use as motivation for 1-A, but by seeking out the intention of the writer when he has these characters and narration express these statements. To return to this:
-Time stopped.
Position lost all meaning. It appeared as if the rigorous certainty of space and time itself had been lost.
This statement was about a miracle (True Magic) of Ultimate Beauty. Which is much like the ones beforehand.
Nevermind the lightning Atram had attempted to unleash, even the storm clouds that had choked out the night sky had been driven away. The Weather Manipulation Magecraft brought about by dozens of magi working in concert was stripped away like it was no more than a thin sheet of paper. Lord El-Melloi II Case Files - Volume 3
Strips away phenomena like magecraft as if it were no more than a sheet of paper, and amidst this, it also dissolves the meaning and certainty of positions, space and time. The reason why True Magic does any of these things to begin with is that it dominates the collective unconscious; by extension, Manas/human order of humanity in its own world of dukka (suffering, attachment). There is no way to qualify True Magic through the laws of mankind; these are laws that initiate externalised relations. Because recall that in the Age of Gods and other eras of mysteries like the Age of Fairies, all of which have been withdrawn into the Inner Sea to continue still to this day. These are eras where the world is in tri-unity, everything was internally related and not externalised (separable)
Heaven and earth once were one.T h e land where mankind took root was a mirror image of the celestial sphere.T h ey formed a Trinity, although not the one that the term is normally interpreted as.In the ancient times, all was connected as one, and was expressed as merged parts of the gods. Fate/Strange Fake - Volume 9
There's just no meaning of "space" and "time" to things at the level of True Magic, because the concept of "space" is antithetical to the concept of "non-duality" and "anatta/no-self(egoless)". You can reconcile non-duality with a mode of apprehension that possesses internal differentiations and real internal relations, especially if each section is composed of either contemplation or beings in contemplation (Gods, Phantasmals, Heroic Spirits: they exist as pure soul, Elementals, Archetype). Then each section of the Inner Sea is purely ideal; there's no gap where extensionality can be included.
All that exists there is intelligible content, which we know to be completely free from the notions of "space-time", not because of an obscure buzzword like "concept of space-time" being used in addition to it. But because space-time does not principally apply there.
Nevermind the magi gathered, even the animals and insects of the forest - no, even the earth and rain felt the impact of that essence. If evolution meant the optimal adaptation of one to their environment, then it was a conclusion of form and measure that threatened the end of the world itself.
Right after they say the miracle [True Magic] dissolved the meaning and certainty of space-time. They exclaim at the very end that what it represented was the end of 'form' and 'measure' (quantitative). Because the application of such things requires externalisation.
It was ___. The word didn't even come to mind. Lord El-Melloi II Case Files - Volume 3
There's a reason why these things are regarded as 'mysteries'; it is not poetic fluff. These things are traces of「 」and therefore mirror the elusive nature of「 」as it reproduces miracles. Because there's no measurable way to define True Magic as it is, and no natural language that can define it. Form and measure (language of quantity) are emergent in natural language, language of reason and rational, language of common sense, and mathematical language.
Among the imperfect languages allowed to man, one had to admit there was nothing that could contain what they saw. It was said there was once a Sealing Designated magus who used the Unified Language (Master of Babel), words which allowed no mistake, to which the entire world - living or not - could not but obey. Her _ was much the same, a purity that reached into the depths of the Root itself. Lord El-Melloi II Case Files - Volume 3
But True Magic is a mystery that cannot be contained by any natural language; all of them are considered equally imperfect to True Magic. I even consider the gap to be like that of zero and any finite number, even if you stretch to infinity, Being and Non-Being; zero and one are difficult to reconcile. There's no scientific or natural way to explain how Beauty at its highest purity is something that can dissolve even the 'meaning' of space, position and time into「Zero」
The language of Babel (unified language) is much like this, a miracle of great purity reaching into the depths of the Root itself.
It wasn't a simple loss for words.To those magi who had been moments earlier pushing themselves to their absolute limit, engaging in a contest of souls that overshadowed any other kind of conflict, it was all they could do to just remain standing.
It is a phenomenon that dominates the world of desires/material world, rooted in the ego. Something that even suspends it. This is what makes gods and Celestial Beings especially powerful, because common sense for them is mysteries; they remain connected to the Root and the Planet. Even withdrawing back to its Inner Sea at the end of their era, essentially, for them, miracles are also common sense. Because there's also no measurable way to define a manner by which fire can burn the entire universe in the way Shiva can burn the universe with his flames, in the context of modern science in human order.
If it can direct minimally, if you perceive it experientially as a driving force, the Gods of love direct with their authority. There's no reason 'why', and there's no definable way to reach the why. It is simply God's doing what they can because their causal power encompasses that idea of 'love'
Then they are no match for the ideal love of the Inner Sea.
TL;DR Proposal once more
Divine Spirits, Fairies and True Ancestors with their full authority, having 1-A smurf hax but capping out at 1-C ap-wise
Goetia gets a separate key for being "higher dimensional"/INS, but I'll leave that key also at 1-C and decided to cover the INS alone in the next thread.
the Inner Sea of the Planet, Celestial Egg and Soul of the Celestial at 1-A fully.
Interesting. Very interesting. I'd expect a person who's actually here to "test the integrity of the arguments" would at least have a semblance of understanding of what is being argued. Which tells me to test out the integrity of the arguments is not the goal here, but rather the goal here is just to argue, no? I mean, why would you test the integrity of any argument you don't understand? Did I not explain with citations how technology cannot replicate the Celestial Egg completely? It doesn't seem like any of your responses are prepared to critically engage with the proposal as well. Rather, it's just you talking to yourself and sending scans. I mean its always convenient for you to argue with scans, without explicitly committing to anything interpretatively, because it requires an effort you just refuse to put in, in your pursuit of "wankbreaking". As if you've ever cared about the source material you yourself refuse to critically engage with. But nevertheless, it's okay, that's why I'm here. Let's go through your interpretations for the fun of it, since you refuse to engage with mine, and get your commitments clear for anybody watching and for the staff team marshadow.
Refer to page 2 and the very end of page (last reply) 3 for context.
Additionally, I will not be engaging with any response, unless of course it satisfies the conditions I laid forth for Marshadow earlier as well.
I expect that, for any supposed deviation from my interpretation through rebuttals, the people opposing the thread will propose their more holistic interpretation that synthesises the tension in how they interpret the statements and what the statements are saying.
Any half-hearted critique will be ignored on my side. To prevent wasting energy, time and risking the possibility of clogging the thread, we're already 5 pages in with no substantial opposition or a convincing case being brought up so far.
It seems to be a trend for people to throw around Nasuverse scans when they don't even know the general context of those scans with respect to the entire verse. The time for that has passed now. Any critique posted from any reader, the reader has a responsibility to commit to whatever tension and apparent contradictions between their interpretations and the scans they use effectively. Clearly, the idea of nitpicking scans (no different from isolating context in a verse that uses intertextuality to this extent) has not been working for Nasuverse threads, considering how messy of a history this verse has because of that.
You can always just refer to part 1 of the thread of the Root, where it took pages to go back and forth over the Root being copied by the Mooncell. Because somebody was convinced they were under no obligation to explain to us, Arcueid stresses the computational nature of the Mooncell, says she can't reach the Root, and she depends on it, yet the principle (the Root) on which the person who stresses the Mooncell depends could be recorded.
And all you have to do is refer to this thread, because another party, Marshadow, earlier avoided with his own bloodstream, explaining how two scans say the Archetype is omniscient. But he's arguing otherwise, if you're incapable of elucidating the commitments of your critiques and providing a resolution to your seemingly contradicting scans. Then I'll assume likewise, you're here to cause more problems than you actually care to provide an internally consistent view of the verse, because of concerns over paltry things like where internally consistent views of the verse land the verse tier-wise.
Heck, all you have to do is refer to page 4, where Telomera also uses a scan of a Divine Spirit (material manifestation of the God, mind you), which obeys the law of conservation. To undercut "Gods" and the like, not being 1-A, even when it's common knowledge by now that the Divine Spirit requires are manifest in the surface texture with material bodies that obey the laws of human order. This only happens because people, for some reason, have gotten so comfortable arguing about the verse, with little to no literary and interpretative responsibility
.For any further explanation, it's better to read the proposal. Because that's more or less a summary, and there are still other scans to cover about Alaya. But the thread's length cannot handle any further bibles, I think, so I stopped arguing for the INS being 1-A and everything else about actual 1-A tiers without smurf hax will be covered in the next thread. That means that, for character profiles here, it is only relevant to authorities (basically reality warping smurf hax). And to prevent the thread from being clogged, if the next response from Telomera has the same problems as Marshadow's, you won't respond and will just let the staff team evaluate the arguments.
By engaging with artificial critiques that exist only to attempt to destabilise my interpretations while avoiding the responsibility of proposing better interpretations that demonstrably align with or are exhaustively faithful to the power system, world-building and themes of the verse, of course. If Telomera, for example, can do as much, then I don't feel I should expend my own energy after already giving an exhaustive and holistic interpretation of all the scans at hand.
And if there are any questions from the staff team, I'll readily and gladly respond to the overlords. I also had half of my response and scans ready for Marshadow's rebuttal, so it felt like a waste to leave it be. I thought I should also clarify my position while at it, so I headed in that direction.
Ultimate One? The Arcueid with a Saint Graph, not even a World Egg frame, who's saying this? This being a reference to her Magic Resistance A+?
I'm unsure how exactly you relegated her to Arcueid at 100%, or to Arcueid with World Egg Frame at all. I'll engage in a disinterested manner; it's simple. Her backup, one of her primary smurf haxes, negates this. She even notes that once she experiences something she hasn't before, such as South American artifacts which probably have roots in an Alien Order, given what we know of their history, it won't work on her ever again.
So I don't know what we're smoking here, especially comparing a statement from Saint Graph Arcueid to that of the World Egg frame.
Not only that, your translation is flawed, whatever you sent out.
Translation in-game:
Magecraft and Sacraments are humanity's attempts to copy and recreate the possibilities of this planet, right?
That's why they don't really affect me, since I'm the source of all that.
Your translation:
Magic and Sacraments are the method people use to imitate and reproduce the phenomena occurring on the planet, right?
Therefore, they won't have much effect against me, since I am their basis.
Blatantly posting misworded scans that suit your agenda? See the Magecraft (魔術 Majutsu Magecraft) here? It reiterates it as Magic (魔法 Mahou Literal descriptor for True Magic) lol, which just ganks on your own argument. I really should have you reported for using misconstructive scans here, but I'll let it go just this once. I suppose it happens to the best of us.
If I didn't already have abundant cause for concern, I'm heavily starting to suspect that you're just being disingenuous. In the "counterargument" section for point 10 in my post, all I did was post the same scan that you yourself cited (the last/fourth link in this section), and you're blaming me for posting inaccurate scans. I'm starting to doubt that even your rendition of what the dialogue "ackshually" says is even reliable.
But besides that, whether the scan talks about immunity or resistance, magecraft or magic isn't entirely relevant. Arcueid's immunity/resistance to magecraft/magic is an external relation based on her own magnitude of power and hax resistances compared to magecraft/magic's magnitude of power and hax resistances, not an internal relation that arises from any supposed 1-A nature vs the supposed qualitatively inferior nature of magecraft/magic.
Because if you unironically think this is not immutable, then your understanding of metaphysics is cute, really. Further, tell us what you think the figure of speech intends to convey here.
That is just a fallacy of division. There's no reason to ascribe the immutability of the Akashic Records to individual Origins themselves. If you're willing to treat other particulars such as humans in the Nasuverse as mutable for scaling purposes despite them being part of the "undivided flow" of reality then you don't have any reason to suddenly turn around and treat Origins otherwise.
But at the same time, what you quoted isn't in itself proof of immutability either. Don't pretend that the "undivided flow" is inherently immutable in philosophy. Look into process philosophy for example. It has the same idea of an undivided flow of reality but without the idea that reality is immutable. In fact, the interplay between these two ideas is a key part of process philosophy. You're just eisegeting Neoplatonism into the text here, and this is far from the only time that you do. (Note that this isn't me attempting to refute the Akashic Records scaling, I'm just rebutting your usage of those scans)
To put this in layman's terms, if it wasn't clear, there's the condition here and the deduction from the condition.
Condition: to trace back to the memories of the world
Why?
Justification within the narrative: The observer observing themselves as a subject.
Deduction: the world possesses memories of all the creatures of the world, which are also the Planet, of course. But nevertheless, to possess the world's memories in the same way the world does, it must suffice that the observer can see itself as a subject.
Therefore, the Planet does.
Miscellaneous
This is further motivated by the fact that the Inner Sea is a realm of the Celestial Body itself. And it is also the dream the Planet itself is seeing, so a dream the Planet sees of itself.
If you need me to break that down too, you're welcome to ask.
Well that's not the best way to structure your argument, so let me try and see if I understand your argument and can structure it more rigorously:
P1: The necessary precondition for tracing the phenomena recorded by the world itself is to observe oneself as the subject. In other words, one can trace the phenomena recorded by the world itself only if one observes oneself as the subject. Or, in terms of an equivalent conditional, if one traces the phenomena recorded by the world itself, then one observes oneself as the subject.
P2: The Earth traces the phenomena recorded by the world itself
P3: Earth observes itself as the subject (Modus Ponens 1 2)
While this argument is valid, it is not sound. The premises are not correct. You are making two big leaps in logic here. First, Premise 1 is flawed. It hinges on the assumption that since it is necessary for the human speaking in the excerpt to observe themselves as the subject to trace the phenomena recorded by the world itself, it is universally true that one must observe themselves as subject to trace the phenomena recorded by the world itself (so that by extension, the same would apply to the Earth as well). That is a proof by example fallacy/hasty generalization. On top of that, note that the speaker in the text talks about an observer's inability to observe themselves as the subject as an obstacle to the technique necessary for the speaker to trace phenomena recorded by the Earth, not necessarily to tracing phenomena recorded by the world in and of itself. Your assumption that the Earth must observe itself as the subject to trace the phenomena recorded by the world itself, in itself also hinges on the additional assumption that Earth must follow the same technique that the speaker in the text must follow, which is also a non sequitur.
Second, Premise 2 is also flawed. You are assuming that because the world "records phenomena," it can also "trace the phenomena recorded by the world itself" as the speaker wishes to do. That is an additional layer of self-contemplation (to trace what one has recorded) that you baselessly assume the world is capable of performing on top of simply recording the phenomena of the world despite there being no backing in the text for it.
she cannot be other than that which contemplates manifestation, because there's no ontological at her level of what appears and what she is. But what appears as she is, is not manifestation but the concealed—a formless shape of all things and atomic structure of genesis. Because of that internal relation, the Archetype in spite of being formless, can come to possess a living (avatar) vessel. In dreaming through not only itself, but all manner of creatures that come to exist in it, can come to know its own shape through the maturity of its sapient and primate species. It is where all becoming's are not, for they have all been realised, where all things unfold and fold back into the potential of all living perfections and the actualisation of all living perfections; where all things begin (unfold) and return back (fold).
The only way for your interpretation to go through is if you ignore the scan that undercuts this interpretation, that is, explicit scans that talk about the Archetype as omniscient once more. My interpretation is the synthesis of this scan you're referring to, and the scans that discuss the Archetype being omniscient
This is why I asked context not to be omitted, because intertextuality is prevalent in Type Moon. You can't just avoid other scans to conveniently pick out the ones you want to use to purport a narrative.
Example:
‘The absence of eternity... is itself eternal.’ "Eternity must be restored to its rightful place. I shall retrieve your sorrow. Forget as you may, those memories of yours will always be recorded within you,” he said.
In Oblivion Recording, the absence of Eternity is regarded as Eternal. And the scans in Tsukihime remake are an explication of a dictum that was once echoed as far back as Kara no Kyoukai. So you're not making yourself look good by arguing this way, honestly.
Are you sure you're talking about the right scans? That part of your OP only links to these two pages. Neither of them even remotely contradict my claim that Earth is dependent on distinct sapient beings and dreams to know itself (obviously these beings are unified with Earth, but you understand the concept of internal distinctions right?). Unless there is some quote in those scans I somehow glossed over that proves otherwise, of course. In that case, please write it out for me so that I can read what evidently doesn't exist.
Alternatively, you might be talking about some other earlier scan, and in that case you're being quite unhelpful by not telling me what it actually is. You keep talking about "muh context" that supposedly invalidates my claim when you can't actually cite any.
Now of course, I won't deny that it's clear that the Archetype is "omniscient" to a limited extent. However, it is of course fallacious to assume that this means that Earth is capable of directly observing itself as the subject.
I think I've articulated very explicit examples of the Inner Sea being pretty much universal, and its archetype ranging over the entire Surface Texture. But if you don't care to engage with that and pretend that doesn't exist, then neither will I. Saves my energy, really.
Mind you, the reason why the Inner Sea is inaccessible and unreachable (I hope you don't think it being unreachable has nothing to do with transcendence, even when it is explicitly a higher plane of existence and True Magic itself lol) is not because it is larger or is trivially a "higher dimension":
I accept that. And yet, none of those things qualify for qualitative superiority. "Being pretty much universal" doesn't, "ranging over the entire surface texture," doesn't either, and neither does being "inaccessible and unreachable." None of those things are 1-A. That's not enough for Type 1 Beyond-Dimensional Existence.
I'm not claiming that "it being unreachable has nothing to do with transcendence." But the core issue here is that "transcendence", like all of those other things I listed above, do not prove 1-A qualitative superiority whatsoever. Read the Tiering System FAQ.
But don't think I'm conceding to your assertion that the Inner Sea transcends dimensionality/spatial extensionality in any way either, because I still reject that. You have not proven that "letting go of one's physical ties" refers to transcending spatial extensionality as a whole rather than simply attaining spiritual incorporeality, which are two entirely different things.
Refer to my quote in Quantitative and Liberation from Extensionality, assuming you bothered going through it
But because you need to be liberated from physical constraints, if you wish to flatten this to them saying "it's just an ability to migrate to the Reverse Side of the World" and truly feel confident that this responds to anything, you're welcome to ignore this part of the response then. Because I just think you avoided actually responding meaningfully.
I'm not "flatten[ing] this to them saying 'it's just an ability to migrate to the Reverse Side of the World'" I'm saying that you have no proof that being liberated from physical constraints refers to being beyond dimensionality as a whole rather than just incorporeality, which, as I pointed out above, are entirely different things.
The point of me saying that "it's the ability to migrate to the Reverse Side of the World" is to highlight how you haven't shown any actual proof of the Inner Sea being superior in power in any way to the category of dimensional things, as is required to prove qualitative superiority.
Yeah, ignoring the entire Inner Sea being True Magic. Which is described as being a type of law that involves overcoming a wall of dimensions (in plural), and going outside of the laws of the universe simpliciter.
None of the scans you cite indicate that True Magic categorically transcends dimensionality as a whole. You have one example of Magic making space meaningless in a way that doesn't scale at all to AP, but you have yet to prove that True Magic across the board, including aspects of it that scale to AP, categorically transcends dimensionality/extensionality. And of course, I should take this opportunity to remind you that using the former as proof of the latter is a hasty generalization.
Arguing that true magic is extensional in any sense involves presupposing that dualistic thinking is relevant to its attainment. Naturally, also presupposes its effects are extensional even when you're told otherwise. I mean, yeah:
Dualistic thinking is not relevant to True Magic's attainment, but that does not prove that its effects are also non-extensional and nondual. It's that simple, because to say otherwise requires you to affirm a non sequitur. And no, being "told otherwise" is obviously not enough reason to regard True Magic's effects as non-extensional. 1-A ratings aren't given because some guy "told otherwise" without any actual evidence.
Ambiguous to the psychic channel of common sense, yes. But it's also measurable by other metrics unrelated to geometry, because again, discursive distinctions exist downstream in the material world. Not in the Inner Sea, all of this being based on it being self-contemplative once more. So refer back to my first responses, and you can respond to them adequately this time. If you can. But in any case, there's nothing like "geometry" and "topology" in a way understood at a quantitative level.
Yeah that's just cope. "Sure, space and time are implied to exist in the Inner Sea by the text, but that doesn't disprove my point because I decided to redefine 'space and time' as something else entirely despite my redefinition not being indicated by the text."
You're welcome to cash out ways you can argue against about 10 scans telling you that True Magic is just the seer seeing itself through itself. Not through external determinations like spatial relations and distinctions, in a discursive sense (in a sense applied to Low 1-A and below).
It is something that speaks to the higher self, recorded as a memory of the Planet itself. Such were the days of the Gods; Gods were close to mysteries themselves. Because mystery dictated common sense, it meant miracles of True Magic could be reproduced easily as the lack of mediation made it possible for the notion of impossibility to remain indeterminate, if mysteries are common sense it meant even the impossible that could not be explained was common sense, and so the miracles of True Magic were naught but paltry exercise in the Age of Gods. Naturally, it meant the Age of Gods was an era where many remained directly connected to the Root, with Divine Spirits being one such class of species; a species that remains connected to the Root because of its mode of apprehension: mystery as common sense. That is, knowledge was treated as self-articulate, faith or rather the aggregate of Planetary facets justified faith by means of faith. This communion between the world-as-it-reveals itself, and the world-as-interpreted, communion of knowledge as asserting that “that is this case” and “this follows because it does”, made the world determinate yet without naming it so much as to fragment it.
Take one look at this for me, okay? The Age of Gods is defined by uncertain laws, because rigid and certain laws are exchanged for mystery as common sense. You may revisit this explanation in the op, around the procession section, and you'll see the scans.
This is not a matter of how many power scaling buzzwords are in the op, and as soon as you understand that, I truly believe you'd have a less hard time seeing the consistency being built here. Because you must understand that something like lightning and wind exists in the Inner Sea. But none of those things has meaning scientifically, because what the entire narrative is telling you is that these things are just "mysteries" lol. That's the laws of the Inner Sea and the Age of Gods, the only way for these things to be meaningfully used as downgrades, as if the verse otherwise assigned predication of those terms in the same way it applies to the Inner Sea. And the entire point of the thread is that it doesn't, and all the scans and arguments build consistency on that.
None of the quotes you cited in that section say that rigid and certain laws are done away with entirely.
Also, you're not tracking the argument I was making, I explicitly said that I was not arguing that laws such as the law of conservation of mass downgrade the Inner Sea directly (in the "further explanation" section for Point 5). My point was to demonstrate that there is a difference between the "human laws" that the Inner Sea is removed from and all laws of physics as a whole. "Human laws" are a subset of the laws of physics, so to speak. Therefore, when you cite a text that says that the Inner Sea is removed from "human laws," this only proves that the Inner Sea is removed from a limited subsetof the laws of physics, not that the Inner Sea is prior to "physical laws simpliciter" as you might put it.
Such a forced analogy, considering that the uncertainty principle doesn't claim that space and time are undefinable. Unless you are confused by the uncertainty principle, for saying that somehow.
Now I completely agree with you that it is a quantum mechanical phenomenon. But notice how even that is unrelated to the premise of whether or not it is 1-A. Because in rigorous quantum mechanics and under scientific consensus, there's nothing like a "space where everything can be hypothesised, and a space that embodies the uncertainty principle, such that because 'coordinates' for what they instantiate, have no fixed meaning" or in other words, the space having no canonical metric.
Alright, I guess you have a point about my quantum analogy not being 100% accurate. But my point that what you cited doesn't prove any sort of beyond-dimensional existence still stands.
Your argument here seems to be that:
P1: In the Inner Sea, distance, direction, and time cannot be defined
P2: A "space" where distance, direction, and time cannot be defined must be beyond extensionality (that is, if distance, direction, and time are undefined in a space, then it must be beyond extensionality)
P3: A space that is beyond extensionality is 1-A
P4: The Inner Sea is 1-A
The first issue is with Premise 2. The fundamental problem with your premise is that the inability for distance, direction, and time to be defined in the Inner Sea does not prove that the Inner Sea is beyond extensionality as a whole. Distance and direction are concepts that are not inherent to spatial extensionality as they depend on specific contingent aspects of spatial extensionality to exist in the first place, such as the presence of fixed coordinates and a canonical metric, as you mentioned. The corollary to this is that without these contingent aspects, a space may still be extensional despite direction and distance being undefined in it. This proves that Premise 2, ie "if distance, direction, and time are undefined in a space, then it is beyond extensionality" is false
And of course, as I have mentioned countless times already, even a "space"'s being beyond dimensionality would still be insufficient proof of qualitative superiority or 1-A, which renders Premise 3 false. You have not proven that the Inner Sea has any sort of superiority to dimensional reality by virtue of/directly caused by its particular dimensional properties, so your conclusion that it must thus be 1-A is not sound.
I mean, if it wasn't enough that the "coordinates" in the INS aren't even geometric but refer to logical relations, and the realm itself is considered the unity of all of those logical relations.
That's just a silly argument. Your argument relies on the assertion "Logical coordinates are just logical relations" despite the fact that "logical coordinates" are never actually defined nor is there any context even remotely implying that coordinates in the INS are literally just logical relations.
You're also assuming that "logical coordinates" describe the ontology of the Inner Sea rather than simply being a tool that Chaldea uses for their own purposes. Remember, the map is not the territory.
Then I'm sure ignoring the part assigns predication of transcendence by associating this nature of the INS with the 'omnipotence' of the Primordial Chaos.
Those are entirely different relations. Containing all possibilities does not translate to power superior to all dimensional/non-1-A things, and unobservability obviously does not translate to a nature entirely removed from dimensionality or quantitative extensions of dimensional power (as dimensionality/extensionality does not preclude unobservability).
The scan comes from a Divine Spirit that is inhabiting a physical vessel like... Idk every Divine Spirit? Literally already established in the op. Obviously, the physical laws apply to those physical bodies, but gods only go to the Reverse Side after the Age of Gods.
They used to rule the surface texture of the world before. There's a reason why I stopped in the middle of the thread to argue God's being outright 1-A I'm waiting to finish up with everything and stuff like this in part 2. So not only did you fail to track the op, but you also misused the context of your own scans.
So while we're at it, please read this verse specifically before using Wankbreaker's scans without context.
For this argument to go through, you, much like Marshadow, have to commit to the "8-dimensional Mooncell" being superior to Avalon, if you treat x-dimensional to be akin to geometric embedding and orthogonality. But you can't even argue that, because that's opposed to how the verse actually works lool. Almost as if this blunder of a response isn't the reason why my view is more internally consistent. I mean, you're welcome to argue Mooncell > Avalon man, surely you'll also have motivation to cash out the coherence of a 30% Arcueid causing stress to the 8-dimensional Mooncell. Really? An avatar of a geometrically 6-dimensional, in pure existence alone, causing stress to the geometrically 8-dimensional plane?
No I don't, because I don't operate on the same "higher dimensionality = higher power" assumption that many nasuverse scalers infected by brainrot operate under.
But that's a discussion for another time, so perhaps it is better to point out the fact that my point still stands that Avalon's ability to grant immunity to physical damage is an external relation that depends on its ability to seal someone in a dimensionally separate location, not an internal relation based on any sort of qualitatively superior durability. And it is a point that you have failed to rebut.
Which only goes through if you pretend you didn't see the statement saying the surface phenomena is a shadow of the tower at the end in its true form within the Inner Sea. And amazingly enough, you found a way to even isolate that from the statements of the Archetype dreaming in the Inner Sea. Incredible levels of pure sophistry.
There is no "isolation" occurring here. All of that language about "dreams", "true face of Earth", "shadow casted upon the Earth", ALL of that, even put together, is insufficient evidence for any sort of R>F or qualitative superiority. There must be additional context suggesting that this language goes beyond being figurative and actually serves as an indication of the Inner Sea literally being ontologically more real than the surface; alas, this context simply doesn't exist.
And you do understand that all creatures spring forth as potencies from the Ultimate One, and return to the Ultimate One (Celestial Egg) at the end of their existence, right?
Wow, everything lives and dies on Earth? That's crazy. It's almost as if the lore isn't nearly as impressive scaling-wise when you aren't eisegeting extremely specific integrations of Neoplatonic philosophy into it.
1. Hello? It says the Original One has no limits and is perfect loooollll
2. Hello#2? It says all beings return to the Celestial Egg. You do KNOW this means things are fulfilled within the embrace of the Celestial Egg, and you DO know that fulfilment is tied to perfection in metaphysics, right? Right? Tsk tsk.
3. Hello#3? Says the same thing, that the sapient species of the Planet have their own denouement, and it's the Ultimate One. Denouement is quite literally the realisation (hence perfection of something), excuse me for you being confident to type in a 1-A thread when you don't understand verbiage that relates to 1-A.
1. This is exactly the eisegesis I was talking about. Being "perfect" obviously doesn't automatically refer to the Platonic conception of perfection.
2. Anything beyond "this text indicates that everything dies on Earth and physically returns to it" is pure headcanon. Again, eisegesis.
3. What do you think perfection in this case means? The perfection of a being is for that being to attain its telos. But that's not nearly as impressive (scaling-wise) as you might think. For Aristotle for example, the telos of an acorn for example is to grow into a mature tree. Nothing about perfection or actualizing one's telos is inherently outerversalunless you inject the Platonic meanings of essence and perfection into the text. Again, your scaling hinges entirely upon your own eisegesis.
Neither does the Root have coordinates, but I guess even from the 100th time I re-emphasise something to you, it just flies over your head. I have totally gone over how descriptions and predicates like "coordinates" are ill-defined in Type Moon, because of dimension anti-realism. Now, if you're so obsessed with the word coordinate, just create another thread and argue the Root being a coordinate because they call it that several times, and I'll just beat you on that. Makes no difference.
Firstly, I think it's important to establish that the staff have not yet accepted dimensional anti-realism WRT the Inner Sea, only to the Root.
Anyways, your application of dimensional anti-realism to the Inner Sea is entirely unjustified. In addition to all the other arguments I have already dismantled, this scan of yours (yes, that is your scan that you cited, so if you want to complain about it potentially being inaccurate then go file a report against yourself) which you have primarily used to back your dimensional anti-realism does not prove it either. All it does is say that the assignment of "past" and "future" to different directions of time are constructed by humans, not that time itself is constructed by humans. In fact, in the scan Mash points out that time in and of itself is one of the fundamental aspects of the universe. So much for dimensional anti-realism.
Where this is derived from is the Inner Sea having an activity of self-contemplation, as explained with respect to your lazy responses in the initial parts of my responses. And on top of that, because you're told it is forever beyond human reach. Because it eludes human cognition simpliciter, saying the otherwise is the equivalent of saying the Inner Sea is part of human order lol.
Right, and I've already refuted your argument for the Inner Sea observing itself as the subject.
Also, being beyond human comprehension obviously doesn't scale anywhere either. Something may be "beyond human comprehension" in a sense despite words being able to univocally express truths about it. That's why we don't automatically inflate characters to stupidly high tiers based on statements about incomprehensibility here.
It doesn't have to be at the level of Pure Act, because Neoplatonic Soul is just like that as well. So, what you mean by "pure headcanon" is just you not understanding the verbiage of the tier you're trying to evaluate. Next time, try to be more faithful to people you're arguing against instead of the unnecessary "pure headcanon" commentary, be it Nasuverse or any other work you're 'downgrading' without critically comprehending the substance.
I am honestly still astounded that you read everything about Origins and came to the conclusion that something like that can be immutable. Because you don't even need a direct statement for it being immutable, if it is already an indivisible essence of existence that initiates the motion of teleology. Or perhaps properly speaking here, teleonomy.
Again, this is you eisegeting Platonism into the text. If we really want to draw parallels, the notion of the Origin is more like the Aristotelian notion of the soul as the form of a particular body which actualizes its potential and draws it towards its telos. Especially in the sense that both the Origin and the Aristotelian soul arise and come into being as opposed to always having existed eternally.
Think about this in terms of Occam's Razor for one second. You could interpret the text at face value since there is no context implying that they're talking about anything other than her body. This of course entails that they're speaking of "Platonic ideals" in a figurative sense as people often do.
Alternatively, you could interpret them as talking about her "body" except by "body" they actually DON'T mean "body" but INSTEAD mean "non-bodily form as a Platonic concept" which is not even a common figure of speech at all to begin with. This of course ALSO entails that she's a literal Platonic Form to begin with, something that isn't actually supported by any substantial amount of evidence.
I think it's pretty clear that the former interpretation is more parsimonious, and that yours is just you grasping at straws to support a bad scaling meta.
By the way, you do realize that you describing her as "symbolically represent[ing]" the concept of the female form actually refutes your own point, right? Platonic forms do not "symbolically represent" what they are, they literally just are what they are without qualifications.
In that case, I wholeheartedly suggest that you follow your own preferences.
ADDENDUM: Pretty much everything Shin said here with regards to my counterarguments is just a rehash of what I refuted above. All he does is continue to eisegete specific integrations of Neoplatonism into the text and misconstrue our standards about Beyond-Dimensional Existence and qualitative superiority.
Also, you're not tracking the argument I was making, I explicitly said that I was not arguing that laws such as the law of conservation of mass downgrade the Inner Sea directly (in the "further explanation" section for Point 5). My point was to demonstrate that there is a difference between the "human laws" that the Inner Sea is removed from and all laws of physics as a whole. "Human laws" are a subset of the laws of physics, so to speak. Therefore, when you cite a text that says that the Inner Sea is removed from "human laws," this only proves that the Inner Sea is removed from a limited subsetof the laws of physics, not that the Inner Sea is prior to "physical laws simpliciter" as you might put it.
Anyways, for the staff team, the statement that suggests the Reverse Side/Inner Sea of the World is removed from the laws of physics is here:
Reverse Side of the World [Others]
The place where the evil dragon Fafnir finally arrived at the very end of the novels. The Phantasmal Races, having understood that the Age of the Gods was over, ceded the Earth’s surface to humans and moved to this place. The world where humans currently live (including the laws of physics) is like a fabric that thinly extends across the surface of the planet. Beneath that fabric exist the planet known as “Earth”.On the other hand, the Reverse Side of the World is the world as it was before humans lived there… that is, the fabric of the era where Phantasmal Races strode the land. In other words, the Earth is the bottommost layer of the planet, and it is covered by the “Reverse Side of the World”—the place where the laws of the “world” as it once was reigns, and covering that is the “Present World”.Fate/Apocrypha material - Encyclopedia: Other Side of the World [Others], p.173
You know, the part that says the laws of physics alongside and the world humans currently live in is a fabric that thinly extends across the surface of the Planet. And beneath that fabric is the actual Celestial Body known as Earth.
Anyways, for the staff team, the statement that suggests the Reverse Side/Inner Sea of the World is removed from the laws of physics is here:
Reverse Side of the World [Others]
The place where the evil dragon Fafnir finally arrived at the very end of the novels. The Phantasmal Races, having understood that the Age of the Gods was over, ceded the Earth’s surface to humans and moved to this place. The world where humans currently live (including the laws of physics) is like a fabric that thinly extends across the surface of the planet. Beneath that fabric exist the planet known as “Earth”.On the other hand, the Reverse Side of the World is the world as it was before humans lived there… that is, the fabric of the era where Phantasmal Races strode the land. In other words, the Earth is the bottommost layer of the planet, and it is covered by the “Reverse Side of the World”—the place where the laws of the “world” as it once was reigns, and covering that is the “Present World”.Fate/Apocrypha material - Encyclopedia: Other Side of the World [Others], p.173
You know, the part that says the laws of physics alongside and the world humans currently live in is a fabric that thinly extends across the surface of the Planet. And beneath that fabric is the actual Celestial Body known as Earth.
And yet this quote doesn't preclude the laws of the Reverse Side of the World from having any sort of commonality at all (such as dimensionality/extensionality) with the present/human texture. That the Reverse Side of the World is beneath the texture that abides by the particular set of laws of physics that govern the human/present texture does not prove that the Reverse Side is beyond every single law of physics that governs the human/present texture.
We don't automatically take statements about things being "omnipotent" or "beyond logic" or "beyond space and time" at face value with the strongest interpretation possible.
It is funny though that you'll insist on selectively reading stuff like that with the most brainrot interpretation possible while at the same time grasping at straws to eisegete neoplatonism into the lore in an attempt to get the staff to ignore the obvious implications of passages like this regarding extensionality in the Inner Sea:
The last paradise, filled with flowers of all colors.
Day brings with it the sunlight of spring and the smell of summer, while night brings the air of fall and the stars of winter. Flowers and insects on the ground, water and greenery and animals in the forest, and beautiful faeries in the water. A small world, also known as the mythical land of endless spring, or the island of apples. A utopia shut off from all beasts with knowledge.
Avalon. Another name for the soul of the planet Earth itself, the inner sea of the star.
It is here that that man closed off his own path, shutting himself into the tower, choosing a future where he could not die until the end of the star. Because he had seen what he had to seen. ───No, because he had seen more than enough beautiful things.
「Now go, Cath Palug. I'm staying here. But you should go free, to touch truly beautiful things.」
The man let his last companion out through a window, without showing any emotion. And so the mage continued to gaze at the world from that one window.
This is the entirety of a fairy tale of the end of the world.
Not really sure, man, what it is with overstating my references to Platonic Philosophy, are we sure we're all reading the thread, man? There are ONLY TWO, grand total of two. That too was through a directly cited statement regarding Henosis with respect to True Immortality through the soul.
And another mention, of Aphrodite being called a Platonic Archetype of the feminine, and that's it lol. The rest are just... Metaphysics, I even give a particularly distinct and Type Moon definition to the terminology there, like a few paragraphs into it.
Okay, so saying something like a mind whose ontology/being and activity are the identity of the "mind", because the mind's Eternal nature is rooted in its perceiving itself as a subject, not an object. And therefore, the mind's apprehension is thus not limited by bondate that comes from it seeing something external to it.
Simple, it is in effect pure and luminous. It is not something that requires citing Neoplatonism, that's why I didn't. It's just a metaphysical necessity, the references to Platonism, which have all been cited with their own scans and local context.
Really, just mark this one as one of those superficial critiques, as this had absolutely nothing to do with Neoplatonism to begin with, as it was... Buddhism. I just didn't mention it initially, because it was reserved to be used as an explanation for part 2 of the thread. Just as the Alaya and Gaia explanation was. And a mind that sees itself is gonna be called self-reversion/contemplation, whether or not you look at Daoism, Buddhism and Neoplatonism.
Type Moon is large phenomenologically based on Buddhism, annnnnd dialectically based on Daoism. Neoplatonism in Type Moon exists there to only explain souls (for sure, but it's barely the motivation for any of my justifications, because I never invoke it directly for that), and procession in terms of emanationism, so I don't know what type of thing we're smoking out here.
And procession being:
Unity (pre-noetic:「 」) - > Noetic Unity (Akashic Records: Origins/completion intellection and realisation of everything, and the beginning and end as zero) - > Soul/of the Cosmos (shares the same psychic channel with other ones when it reverts back to the universe, and they are therefore the only ones capable of communion; this field of consciousness constitutes the entire greater universe)
Then something that exists and in simply existing sees itself as an activity, which simultaneously defines its existence. In OTHER WORDS, something that perpetually contemplates and defines itself through itself cannot be defined under those systems. I'm surely surprised this was actually controversial to you, Mr. T if Nasu seems to be understood as much.
But at the same time, what you quoted isn't in itself proof of immutability either. Don't pretend that the "undivided flow" is inherently immutable in philosophy. Look into process philosophy for example. It has the same idea of an undivided flow of reality but without the idea that reality is immutable.
The fact that an Origin records and determines the existence of a being does not preclude it from undergoing the process of becoming itself. On the contrary, origins are compared to "flash[es] of lightning emerging from the vortex of all things" and are said to be "born." Likewise, Origins are said to "arise at the beginning of a person or thing's existence."
This view just imports change within the Root, considering that Origins exist within the Root.
And between a person who actually reads philosophy and Mr T ergo Telomera, the Root was agreed to be Tier 0 and said by Ultima to be the most intentional depiction of a Tier 0. This is only a you person, and unfortunately, Type Moon writers just happened to not be you.
Because unironically it's funny, Origins are immutable is essentially just common sense self-contemplation implies being immutable lol. Ultima did not have a problem with it, but of course, the person larping with philosophy clearly cannot understand a basic dictum that even the writers of Type Moon could.
Because guess what, Mr. T?
6 / Oblivion Recording
(録音, rokuon)
Step (一歩, ippo).The magician (魔術師, majutsushi) took a step toward me.
"The observer (観測者, kansokusha) themselves becomes the observed (観測される対象, kansoku sareru taishou). It is not that you exist as yourself, but rather you must recognize and accept that the time you have accumulated — that very time itself — is what constitutes your self. A definite (確かな, tashika) personality (人格, jinkaku) has never existed from the beginning. You must admit this.
Recording (記録, kiroku) is, in other words, the core (核, kaku) of the soul (魂, tamashii) that is not even influenced by your own thoughts. This is what is preserved (保管, hokan) eternally. Take it into yourself, become one with it, for it is your own wound (傷, kizu). If you do so, even if the world disappears, it will remain within you, and your..." Kara no Kyoukai - Oblivion Recording - Volume 2
The Planet/Inner Sea is already stated to be the observer as the observed. In fact, we are told that's just what recording represents. The core of the Soul, not influenced by thoughts, is eternally preserved, and we know the Soul is preserved eternally as a record of substance within the memories of the Inner Sea.
What's funny to me is that they spell at that level (of recording of the world), when the observer becomes the observed, both the observer and the observed remain unchanged.
"Being far [遠] means that it has no form [カタチ]. It is an event [出来事] that does not depend on the observer’s [観測者] impression, but rather controls the observer itself. That is the only phenomenon that can be called eternal [永遠]—the perfect ‘record’ [記録].
An event that controls the observer, and I explained earlier that thoughts are a phenomenon that returns to the Soul at the end of the world. Because the Soul is already at the end of the world (another name for the Inner Sea), thoughts move towards the inherent fulfilment that exists within the Soul. The Akashic Records are the same thing that Kurogiri was seeking out (the records of the Celestial Sphere of the Earth), but at a higher level, as they represent a record of Being greater than that of the Celestial Spheres. Records of all of creation/the [greater] universe, and much like both, return to them involves successive shedding of qualifiable attributes. Because it's a sequence of existence, it represents unity, but to varying degrees.
This sentiment comes to be expressed way later, after several arcs.
In Spiral Paradox, reality is likened to a spiral of tensions (dualities) transitioning into one another, reaching synthesis as further objects become divided and more attributes can be contained:
“What’s important is not the quantity of death. It is the quality of death. Tracing back to the source, the forms a death can take can be categorized into broader distinctions. Dissecting the possibilities of death into every possible route, I arrived at the sixty-four possibilities present here. Here I have gathered the people who shoulder those varieties of death.
Therefore, this place is a microcosm of the whole world. By experiencing their suffering, I am able to comprehend their suffering. I am able to simplify the eight divine signs into four simple forms and arrive at Ryougi, the Two Forms.” “Hmph. Is being unified as one really so desirable, Araya? Light and darkness were not divided to oppose each other, but because they are the attributes that encompass the greatest number of things.
Everything that exists alone is inherently lonely. That is why it tries to divide into many. You just can’t accept that. You study the deaths of countless humans, carefully research their lives, and accumulate that knowledge as your own. Even if I were to die, you would likely store everything about the life and death of Aozaki Touko in some corner of your brain.
Kara no Kyoukai - Spiral Paradox
The contradiction that initiates karma is only relevant to humanity, which is composed of Alaya-Vijnana. A contradiction so primitive that it was the deciding factor between whether or not one overcomes the wall of duality to reach the Root:
“The Counter Force is extremely thorough in preventing the path from being reached. This is because it’s a power that humans should not possess, an act that serves as the means to regress into nothingness. “Once an individual human is complete, the meaning of their existence will disappear. At long last, one could escape from this burning house of worldly desires. And yet the masses of humans unconsciously refuse to achieve completion simply because they want to live.
All humans, the moment they think of themselves as ‘human,’ become less than beasts .
Though they live in order to achieve completion, they refuse completion for the sake of survival. Humanity’s beginnings have always been a paradox.
Kara no Kyoukai - Spiral Paradox
A text that does heavy lifting in explaining causation in logical, not temporal terms. So instead of "the Root creates the world", it is that the human domain pursues "life", not "completion", because in completion the meaning of life ceases to be. And Arcueid suggests that things are too complex to return to the original Source, so the original Source doesn't "create the world", but it is the world that distances itself from the Root. Because we understand that the Root has no will nor deliberation, it is just where all things 'flow'.
Every phenomenon has an ultimate underlying cause, an absolute One. It is the starting—and ending—point of this universe. There exists something there that has 'recorded everything.' Rather than calling it a record, it is simply something that 'exists,' so it cannot be called information. It just 'is.' It has no will in itself, and no sense of direction is possible. It is merely like a primordial vortex, endlessly pouring out causes.
Tsukihime: Piece of Blue Glass Moon - Day 7 - Arcueid Route
It is also described as a 'contradictory' spiral of everything and nothing, the most contradictory thing in fact of Type Moon cosmology. Because it is the synthesis of all tensions, of itself and reality:
“…The swirl of the Origin.
The place where all causes spiral together—where everything is prepared,
and therefore, nothing exists.
And therefore, where, because everything is determined and set (in other words, complete), nothing exists. All causes spiral together there, and connect into that non-complex source that is before attributes, because attributes exist only when the precondition that is division comes to be:
「………Hmph.
So being one is that important to you, Araya?
Light and darkness were divided
for the very sake of opposing one another––」
「It was not separated because it was inferior, but because it is the attribute that contains the greatest number of things.
All things, when they are only one, are lonely. Therefore, they seek to divide into many. You simply cannot forgive that, can you?
Ah, he said. Let slip a sigh. The twinned Shiki, yin and yang, good and evil. It was not antagonism which divided them. Aozaki Touko, the magus, had described it otherwise. That they were divided insofar as each comprehended all the attributes it possibly could
The two-form yin-yang contains the greatest number of attributes unified within two modes of existence; thereafter, there's none that contains any more attributes. Because the source is prior to duality, and the precondition for duality:
“Continuing the 太極図 [Taiji Diagram]. From the chaos that is『 』, what divides into two becomes the 両儀 [Two Forms / Yin and Yang].
From there it divides again into the 四象 [Four Symbols], and then, to further complicate, the 八卦 [Eight Trigrams]…”
As what proceeds from the Root is divided into two, yin and yang.
Consequently, accumulating immeasurable complexity of attributes cannot reach the Swirl of the Root:
Hominids have become too complex.
In seeking omnipotence, we added too many capabilities.
The result: the genes that form the human blueprint are, at base, made of only four types of nucleotides.
And yet, this simple spiral of four bases, layered and intertwined endlessly, leads to a paradox where complexity becomes immeasurable.
Because of that paradox, analysis becomes impossible.
Reaching the source is unattainable from the standpoint of modern humans.
So I thought: if I can’t reach it, I’ll just have to create it myself.
The result was... pitiful.
No matter how much effort I poured into it—All I could ever create was a perfect version of myself.”
Modern humans have diverged too far.
They’ve become an unmeasurable mass of attributes and systems.
We can no longer reach the original.
Attributes and systems—in other words, destiny.
A paradox/tension of chasing omnipotence. Whereby, in pursuit of omnipotence, the addition of attributes and accumulation of many different systems are used to reproduce magecraft. Modern humanity has effectively diverged further from the source. Now, I don't expect you to understand this much. But an example of causation being not about time, but about logical, ontological priority and primacy. If complex things exist, then they are an aggregate of something much simpler and prior.
Which I already covered beforehand, in relation to procession being about the logical order of Being. If knowledge has a source, then the source is before knowledge「 」-> whatever is unknown is in contrast with what is known, and what is known can only come to be known if it was first unknown, the Akashic Records expresses the completion of everything as all the known and simultaneously the essence of existence itself (existence-as-truth/knowing)/Origins are particular determinations within that complete record as a flow (emanationism/emergence from the source without affecting/causing in the source) - > What is receptive of the directions from its Origin, and through that it begins to underly the possibilities of the particular it governs. These come to exist as animation through teleology, a pull from the end of the world (as thoughts derive from the conclusion of the world).
Each succession has additional determination, but before all determinations, what is first is the indeterminate 「 」and thereafter anything determinate. Anything determinate is intelligible and can be known; what is after Indeterminacy can only be what cannot be Indeterminacy, which is determination. And it can only be "all determination/knowledge/existence", each sequence contains more determinations, but in a more potent sense of unity. Because we clearly see consciousness alone, as it relates to the Root/Akashic Records, can come to be closer to the Root/Akashic Records when it sheds conceptualisation, discrimination and determination.
And the identity of observer and observed delineating an unchanging existence, because existence is solely just subjective experience with different grades. If existence is only that, then change is only possible when the subject is observing the object as external to it. Space slips into intuition, and time orders the phenomenal experience. And the object becomes possible of change, real multiplicity, emergence of ego and death of self-reversion. But if the observer is just the observed, and neither is external to one another, there's nothing external. And space neither emerges nor does time; both become unchanging because change can only be experienced by the seer as they see another object outside of them.
As I quoted, I already spoke of all this before with Wankbreaker's alt and elaborated on this early on page 5, too.
There's a reason why Ultima agreed, and you don't; there's also the reason why Nasu was the one to write that should an observer become an object being observed. Then both the observer and observed will remain unchanged.
The crest that Touko had become able to use was more than twice as powerful as Aoko’s. Aoko gazed at that threat through half-lidded eyes — completely outside her interest. Rather than such external matters, she quietly probed for what lay hidden within her own heart, and carefully seized hold of it.It felt like algae in her hands. It was not a kind of intense passion, nor was it hard or large. Surely, this was just the momentum of the moment. She abandoned thought itself, brought the knots of her heart into her grasp, and stared intently at her enemy.“Right now, I must unify the consciousness that is regressing toward zero into a single whole.
Considering his deliberate use of self-reversion in relation to the attainment of True Magic. On top of that other statement, about the world's memories only having the capacity to be seen as if one has the capacity to see themselves as a subject.
Because it undercuts the ontological gap between the Being and its 'parts'.
If all of its parts are just the 'whole' seeing itself, then there are no real physical or extensional parts to begin with. And supposing we treated the whole as space-itself—seeing-itself, then that also can't follow, because it would not be capable of defining without propositions or patterns itself.
But in the same way a being does to reach True Magic, considering that it is entirely connected to the Root. So it defines itself through the contemplation, but if it were (applies to any number of dimensions) space-itself, then the definition of space would not be dependent on space, but the sum of its parts. Meaning it would just be a consciousness that sees itself as itself externally. Not consciousness that contemplates first and produces partial self-reflective effects of itself (aspects and bunrei of itself being gods and elementals)
But I guess Makoto Sanda got it right when he established a correlation between True Magic, a direct connection to the Root and non-extensionality, even had a power scaler beat on that heh!
-Time stopped. Position lost all meaning. It appeared as if the rigorous certainty of space and time itself had been lost.
Sending this for the nth time, lost count of how it doesn't seem to fit in through the thick-headed skull, though Sandal even seemingly anticipated this deflation of his writing through Mr T and decided to spoon-feed little wittle Mr T with a direct statement about True Magic, declaring the end of 'form' and 'measure'.
If evolution meant the optimal adaptation of one to their environment, then it was a conclusion of form and measure that threatened the end of the world itself.
Effectively getting it right again, beyond a power scaler, if only... but it appears writers really do take time to think about which powerscalers don't.
It was ___. The word didn't even come to mind.Among the imperfect languages allowed to man, one had to admit there was nothing that could contain what they saw. It was said there was once a Sealing Designated magus who used the Unified Language (Master of Babel), words which allowed no mistake, to which the entire world - living or not - could not but obey. Her「 」was much the same, a purity that reached into the depths of the Root itself.
Even going as far as to slap it in your face, that True Magic is beyond these things simpliciter, because no speech of mankind can contain it. Mirroring the very process by which you reach letting go of thoughts, so that they fade into「 」to strip one of all ego-based obstructions (conceptual and perceptual obstructions) to align with「 」, but yeah.
I'm guessing the response to this is also either
"Fallacy bro"
"Dudee, you're sooo brainrotted, it's a Metaphor; please do trust me, nobody knows Nasu as well as I"
"Type Moon scalers are so brainrotted (x2) it's obviously hyperbolic because I said so"
"Not necessarily, there's another possible interpretation x that I can't elucidate contextually ad-infinitum (arbitrary clinging to alternative interpretations without preponderance)
But yeah, all of this is effectively just common sense in metaphysics and mysticism (especially idealistic types). You're concerned with power scaling, and this is a concern of metaphysics; and it really just seems like the writers are getting it right by far, and you're not. We're not really talking on the same wavelength.
This is not particularly a response to anything you said, though. I don't really care about that part.
ADDENDUM: Pretty much everything Shin said here with regards to my counterarguments is just a rehash of what I refuted above. All he does is continue to eisegete specific integrations of Neoplatonism into the text and misconstrue our standards about Beyond-Dimensional Existence and qualitative superiority.
So it's confusing to me that you found to way to seek out this rhetorical angle as an excuse to side-step having to provide a comprehensive. Because the only times Platonism got brought up were a warping... 2 times with 2 scans that mentioned it. How did you find a way to make your ignorance my responsibility?
Apologies if I have to, but only you would waltz into a thread thinking "self-contemplative" references are unique to Neoplatonism. Again, this is not a response, I just find your obsession with 2 referents of Platonism throughout the thread weird and laughable.
It's like an elaborate attempt at oversimplifying the proposal and the arguments made for it to other mass, and declare a
"Hey, look, everybody! Shin is importing Platonism despite mentioning it only twice, grrr, how dare he, how dare heeee! He is trying to poison the well! Don't even bother reading the actual content of the arguments. Type Moon scalers are all brain-rotted because I think so, and therefore I am! All Neoplatonism grrrr hurr durr bad Shin.
Because all my references for self-contemplation were based on Buddhism, which Type Moon is very systematic and clear with how it applies Buddhism, as I've outlined. Sometimes it's better to give up than to keep fighting when you don't even know where you're throwing your punches. I mean, you have not read a single book on Neoplatonism, nor Aranyosi's book that you cited, nor Aristotelian metaphysics.
It is funny though that you'll insist on selectively reading stuff like that with the most brainrot interpretation possible while at the same time grasping at straws to eisegete neoplatonism into the lore in an attempt to get the staff to ignore the obvious implications of passages like this regarding extensionality in the Inner Sea:
I didn't find anything note of being 'funny', your sense of humour might be genuinely broken, gang. Quit calling me brain-rotted for the nth time again.
If we're talking about something 'funny', what actually had me dying was you linking the eisegesis Wikipedia page in this specific message, linking eisegesis pages from Merriam and Wikipedia for the second time in a row. Out of all your entire replies, the only memorable part to me is probably this right now. Wikipedia.... Wikipedia... Reminded me of the time where I loved seeing the attempt to sneak in the Social Influencing, Aura (Overwhelming and Charismatic) and Information Manipulation of Absolute Infinity key as P&A stats into your le "Mr Telomera profile" a while ago, by the by, great feats! If only you didn't lose out to admin smurf haxes...
But anywho, can the staff team be pinged to evaluate yet? This thread has not progressed in one bit whatsoever in terms of staff votes; none of the back and forths have been productive. The opposition side, two so far, one who's banned and the other being big Mr T, who I doubt have even read the thread comprehensively, and their responses leave much, if not all of it, to be desired, especially arguing in relation to something something Neoplatonism when it actually wasn't... substantive nor meaningful. And it's already at 5 pages, so it doesn't look like that much will change.
There's not much of substance that you bring up here (you reiterate some points that I've already refuted) but there is one thing I'd like to respond to.
"The observer (観測者, kansokusha) themselves becomes the observed (観測される対象, kansoku sareru taishou). It is not that you exist as yourself, but rather you must recognize and accept that the time you have accumulated — that very time itself — is what constitutes your self. A definite (確かな, tashika) personality (人格, jinkaku) has never existed from the beginning. You must admit this."
"Recording (記録, kiroku) is, in other words, the core (核, kaku) of the soul (魂, tamashii) that is not even influenced by your own thoughts. This is what is preserved (保管, hokan) eternally. Take it into yourself, become one with it, for it is your own wound (傷, kizu). If you do so, even if the world disappears, it will remain within you, and your..." Kara no Kyoukai - Oblivion Recording - Volume 2
The Planet/Inner Sea is already stated to be the observer as the observed. In fact, we are told that's just what recording represents. The core of the Soul, not influenced by thoughts, is eternally preserved, and we know the Soul is preserved eternally as a record of substance within the memories of the Inner Sea.
Still, no matter how much I tried, it didn't work. Just as a single man
cannot shake his own hand, an observer cannot select themselves as their
own target.
-KnK Oblivion Recording / 6
The translation I am using, which is the translation by ProtoformX on Beast's Lair, seems to differ from yours. While your translation implies that the inability for an observer to observe themselves is tied to human limitations, ProtoformX's translation implies that this is just a general limitation that isn't limited to human observers (so it seems it would also apply to Earth). We can try posting the relevant raw text on the translation requests thread if you want to have someone reevaluate the text though
There is no "self-contemplation" here (at least, not in the way you conceive of self-contemplation) because it is simply impossible for an observer. The observer does not observe himself; instead, the observer is themselves observed by the world. The Earth does not observe itself as the subject, it observes the living sapient beings on Earth (the "observer" in the excerpt you cited), which facilitates the world's mediated (not immediate) knowledge of itself.
While those beings are part of the Earth, there is still a distinction between them. It is explained by Aozaki in the text:
Instead, he speaks to the world itself. Think of it like an
ontological hierarchy. As long as 'I' exist, there will always be an Aozaki
Touko above me that exists within the world itself.
...
The memories that we humans possess, are also recorded by the world
itself. It's a similar concept to the Akashic Records, but this is a wave
phenomenon that exists on a lower level than it.
-KnK Oblivion Recording / 5
There is in fact a duality here (though not an absolute separation) between the "lower" self, who is the observer that becomes observed by the world, and the "higher" self, which "exists within the world itself" and observes the "lower" self by recording it. There is no dissolution of the distinction between observer and observed at Earth's level.
There's not much of substance that you bring up here (you reiterate some points that I've already refuted) but there is one thing I'd like to respond to.
There is in fact a duality here (though not an absolute separation) between the "lower" self, who is the observer that becomes observed by the world, and the "higher" self, which "exists within the world itself" and observes the "lower" self by recording it.
Under what domain do you think the separation applies as a predicate? Because not only does it seem to me that nothing here mentions the observer and observed relation, whereof the passage you're citing as evidence:
Instead, he speaks to the world itself. Think of it like anontological hierarchy. As long as 'I' exist, there will always be an Aozaki Touko above me that exists within the world itself....The memories that we humans possess, are also recorded by the world itself. It's a similar concept to the Akashic Records, but this is a wave phenomenon that exists on a lower level than it.
I also love how you're confused on your readings of metaphysics, as per usual, applying an ontological distinction in a phenomenological context. It's so hilarious because this confusion is the equivalent of saying
"a human is the observer inside the Root, and the Root is the observation of everything": Therefore there's a "duality between the observer and observed in the Root", and by extension the Root is also not Eternal and Unchanging because those are the conditions in Type Moon to be Eternal and Unchanging.
Better do more reading than just Wikipedia pages with philosophy, now if this keeps, the thread is just gonna get clogged by this peculiar form of intellectualism... peculiar arguments like this.
Also, it would be very beneficial for you to understand the difference between how predicates apply depending on the domain of quantification.
Because if you argue like this elsewhere next to people who actually read philosophy, you'd look like the type for import duality in non-dualistic doctrines because "erm look, there are two humans, but if the world is truly non-dualistic, there shouldn't be any numerical distinction between anything". The type to think Pure Act is some void that absorbs multiplicity into itself like a black hole, after taking a lot of philosophy lessons from verses like DC. This is the general consequence of confidence in ignorance, honestly, because if you have to flatten phenomenological predication to ontological predication.
Then to say "multiplicity is real phenomenologically to finite being" is to say that, because of that, you either conclude "Pure Act is metaphysically impossible and logically contradictory" or "Pure Act imports multiplicity as parts to the Pure Act as a whole". And again, Type Moon writers anticipate this and Nasu in that text specifically:
Instead, he speaks to the world itself. Think of it like an ontological hierarchy. As long as 'I' exist, there will always be an AozakiTouko above me that exists within the world itself.
This is why here they talk about 'observers' and the 'observed', phenomenological placeholders that can be assigned predicates within quantification within the domain of phenomenology.
That's why you see your separation between the higher self within the world (Inner Sea) and the lower self (material world), in spite of the alleged capacity for the higher parts of the soul to 'contemplate'. And I say alleged, because you can only be convinced by the sound of your own voice and look of your own texts and not anybody else's, but I digress. Because the references of the observer and the observed becoming one, refers to when you revert to a principle causally immanent in you:
Recording (記録, kiroku) is, in other words, the core (核, kaku) of the soul (魂, tamashii) that is not even influenced by your own thoughts. This is what is preserved (保管, hokan) eternally. Take it into yourself, become one with it, for it is your own wound (傷, kizu). If you do so, even if the world disappears, it will remain within you, and your..."Kara no Kyoukai - Oblivion Recording - Volume 2
Recording in the context of Oblivion Recording is just explicitly said to be the core of the soul, lol.
And this core is not influenced by things of the lower self, within the material world, like thoughts (because thoughts come from the end of the world), and it is what is eternally preserved. Right after that, you're told that from the perspective of the lower self, you must become one with it. It is not becoming one with you, because it already exists in a realm higher than you and already encompasses you. Because in Mahoyo, it is foreshadowed through the reference of the Goat Touko once more, who refers to it as the 'higher self' that not even time travel can impede on its teleology.
In other words, time travel will always be supervened over the natural flow of reality in the same way the 'lesser self' comes before the higher self, because the higher self is already at the finish line, so to speak.
And later on, it is referenced again when Aoko reaches True Magic, and she unifies an aspect of her consciousness that reverts/regresses back to zero into a single whole. So we know it already knows there's an aspect of the soul (because it's an aspect of conscious experience/subjective experience) higher than the one looking in the material world that always regresses to zero into a whole.
“Right now, I must unify the consciousness that is regressing toward zero into a single whole. Mahoutsukai no Yoru - Chapter 12: "Witch on the holy night
It is the equivalent of becoming the observer, becoming the object observed. The only problem is that the material soul will always be a type of Eternity that reflects the absence of Eternity as Eternal. And I explained this earlier, through several references like Roa's Eternity as the world expanding outward endlessly and producing more multiplicity, Karmic-Vijnana and Conscious-Vijnana self-perpetuating experience of samsara, with other references to Spiral Paradox and the accidents of the body like memories of mankind disappearing, but the record of the memory remaining within them (in the soul). None of this is unlike the core of the soul:
It is not that you exist as yourself, but rather you must recognize and accept that the time you have accumulated — that very time itself — is what constitutes your self. A definite (確かな, tashika) personality (人格, jinkaku) has never existed from the beginning. You must admit this.
Because it is ontological continuity, something as we've seen before 'remains even when the world ends', 'is Eternally preserved', and also encompasses all of the time you've accumulated as constitutive of the ontological continuity of the 'self'.
"It will remain forever. [ずっと 残っ て い て] It will never change." [それ は] "There is no need for traits, such as personality. [性格] If the history that one's self has accumulated is the only evidence that demonstrates the self, [自己 が 重ね て き た 歴史] then that will be something that doesn't change no matter what happens."
And this is not flattening of the higher soul into being time in a non-trivial sense, you'd be foolish to think that.
But then again, that's precisely why it wouldn't be a surprise if you thought that. Because it already exclaims that this 'history' is unchanging. So it's not that humanity gives rise to this history causally, even when that 'history' in the material world temporally comes after it (as again the soul exists at the end of the world).
Because we are already told that revelation/disclosure of all time that one has accumulated is proof of it, and it is something that will never change, no matter what happens.
Let's look at this from a logical perspective.
Now consider this, the condition for things not being Eternal by the person Telomera is grossly misinterpreted:
You see, whether the specimen is immutable or not, there's no such thing as eternity, correct? Why? It's simple. We are cut off from the external world
The condition for things not being Eternal is their being separated/cut/divided from the external world/material. And consider the condition for becoming Eternal :
"until the world ends, we are together. [それ は] It will remain forever. [ずっと 残っ て い て] It will never change." [それ は] "There is no need for traits, such as personality. [性格] If the history that one's self has accumulated is the only evidence that demonstrates the self, [自己 が 重ね て き た 歴史] then that will be something that doesn't change no matter what happens." [それ は 何 が 起き て も 変わら ない モノ に なる] "If the observer itself can become the object being observed, [観測 者 そのもの が 観測 さ れる 対象 に なれ ば] then both the thing being observed and the observer remain unchanged." [観測 する モノ も 不変 で あり、観測 さ れる 対象 も 不変] "That is eternal, [永遠] as the magician said." [魔術 師 は 言っ た]
With the condition being the identity (unity) of the observed and the object of observation. And the only thing that qualifies for that intensional predication of the word 'Eternal' is'
*"Being far [遠] means that it has no form [カタチ]. It is an event [出来事] that does not depend on the observer’s [観測者] impression, but rather controls the observer itself. That is the only phenomenon that can be called eternal [永遠]—the perfect ‘record’ [記録].
Kara no kyoukai - Oblivion Recording
Is an perfect/complete, eternal record, something that directly controls the observer. Not only was the core (essence) of the soul considered a record, much like this, something eternally preserved. And not only are the only things that record covered Oblivion Recording is the world and the Root:
The memories that we humans possess, are also recorded by the world itself. It's a similar concept to the Akashic Records, but this is a wave phenomenon that exists on a lower level.
The Inner Sea is Eternal and the Soul of the Cosmos itself Eternal/Eternity, as covered in the proposal.
The Root is already considered something that has existed since the beginning, and something that all life depends on. And something that contains the end of everything at the moment that everything begins. In other words, something Eternal.
But to become Eternal only as far as Oblivion Recording, is for the observer to become the observed as unified (in identity)
And the only things to be assigned predication of the activity of that term 'recording', are the world itself, the soul itself and the Akashic Records. And incidentally, all of these things have been called Eternal too; could it be that they are the observers and observed at once? But no, in desperation, you took a route that probably shows your lack of care for narrative integrity the most.
While your translation implies that the inability for an observer to observe themselves is tied to human limitations, ProtoformX's translation implies that this is just a general limitation that isn't limited to human observers (so it seems it would also apply to Earth). We can try posting the relevant raw text on the translation requests thread if you want to have someone reevaluate the text though
幸い、私にはそれができうるだけの技術があった。けれどダメだった。
In relation to him, tracing/retroactively going back to his past in relation to his memories, he doesn't say it's impossible. It's simply that he failed(ダメだった), but he did have (があった) the means/technique (技術) to trace back to the roots of his past, which is within the possibility (できうる), the reasoning for his failure comes in the very next sentence.
For an observer(観測者は), observing themselves(自分自身を) as their own target (観測する対象には) is something that is impossible(できない) to carry out(自分自身と).
Human beings just simply cannot shake hands (握手はできないんです) with their own selves.
観測者は、自分自身を観測する対象にはできない。自分自身と握手はできないんです、人間というものは。
人間というものは here explicitly states "humans by their very own being", so that's the primary, and the only subject in relation here, which relates to Satsuki possessing the means to and attempting it (超人的)but failing, the reason he fails is simply that he's a human.
Hence why he attains the summit Reason being 自分自身と握手はできないんです、人間というもの Being incapable of shaking their own hands, that is what humans fundamentally are.
This
The observer does not observe himself; instead, the observer is themselves observed by the world.
And then your ignorance on metaphysics just circles back, to either collapsing your own arguments, being just outright wrong on your assumptions of metaphysics, or this...
You are contradicting (unknowingly because of your ignorance) your own position. What you proposed here as an alternative reading is... What is what self-reversion would be; pure observation. If the observer is themselves observed by the world, then the observer and the observed are the same. Looks like we finally agree, but it looks like we finally agree because your confusion on metaphysics led you to make a blunder that already implies that the world encompasses the observer and observes the observer.
Getting a little systematic here once more:
Accounts for the observed as the unity of the observer (in other words, the unity of those two):
Q: When all's said and done, what was the Root that Araya sought? <Canon> Nasu: The end of history, and a record of humanity's merit. Which is to say, it's the "observation of everything, from start to finish". Takeuchi: Hmm… It's the same with novels, manga, and anime, right? If you don't read or watch all the way to the end, you can't properly evaluate the work. Nasu: That's putting it too plainly, but you have the gist of it. Only, there's no guarantee an individual will reach that "end"…
The Root (as the Akashic Records) is neither regarded as the 'observer' nor 'observed', but the observation of everything from start to finish. The choice of the term 'observation' in particular is important here, because if one were to say it is an 'observer', then the observed (in other words, manifestation of everything from the Akashic Records) would be perceptible within the Root.
But if it is merely an 'observation' itself, which is a term that includes the internal relation of the observer and the observed. But herein it is the self-relation of the observer and the observed. Again, should it be the case that the observer and observed are dual within the Root (Akashic Records)?
Then, the Root would either be everything observed from start to finish, but who would be the observer to initiate the beginning of the observed?
Conversely, if both truly have no beginning and end, then the Root would not be the observation of everything from start to finish, nor the end of the world. And remember, by observation here, it is meant to exclaim on the Root as a place where all beginnings and ends are recorded. Therefore, the Root is the 'observation' of everything rather than the observer observing everything, nor the conglomerate of all things observed.
Assume it is otherwise, then the observer and observed would be dual within it. But that is also not the case, and is quite frankly metaphysically impossible.
Yet, my feet did not stop. Not even the will to stop arose. The flow itself was me, and I was the flow. Why should I fear returning to the place I was born?... And within it—an incomprehensible record, spreading outward.
To begin with, all that exists within the Akashic Records is the self as the process of emanation (flow) itself. In other words, it's the equivalent of a human as the identity of the observed and observer. If the observer was not the observed, the flow would not be here at the level of the Root. But the flow is her, at the level of the Akashic Records. Rejecting an immediate static reading of the Akashic Records, in exchange for something akin to a continuous flow. It is not "I am 〈doing〉 [something]" or "[something] is 〈happening〉 to me" at that level, because there's no "I" and "It", "I" and "We", "I am" and "it is not". The I is the 〈happening〉 itself, and the 〈happening〉 is a dissolution of 〈happening/becoming〉; as a return to where you began, the beginning as the end. In other words, a human is a record within the Akashic Records.
The translation I am using, which is the translation by ProtoformX on Beast's Lair, seems to differ from yours. While your translation implies that the inability for an observer to observe themselves is tied to human limitations, ProtoformX's translation implies that this is just a general limitation that isn't limited to human observers (so it seems it would also apply to Earth). We can try posting the relevant raw text on the translation requests thread if you want to have someone reevaluate the text, though
Oh yeah, I didn't respond to this because I'm genuinely confused as to what context is missing because he didn't really elaborate lol.
I'll just assume he purposefully kept the justification for me taking things of Oblivion Recording out of context vague, to prevent him from getting clocked for arguing about things he hasn't read. Like Goddd, it would actually be soooo funny if you thought Kurogiri wanted to and reached the Akashic Records or something, Telomera.
Since it seems like you're trying to argue that, judging by the scan, but are not certain enough to come out and say which part is taken out of context and how.
But anyway, Ultima said he'd respond in three days' time or so. The summary part is for him and the staff team. I'll be back then.
Summary The Akashic Records: Telos and Knowledge as Being
Going by the aforementioned, it is apparent that with the provided description of the Swirl of the Root as 'experienced'. Delineates an expression of a principle that is neither purely an observer nor observed but a self-contained relation of the observer and observed without external relata: undivided existence as all "perfect" knowledge.
Aoko: Right. And also its end goal. The place where all knowledge is recorded, where all matters are settled. To see, touch, and understand it makes even the impossible possible. It has gone by many names over the years, but you could say it's where God lives. Mahoutsukai no Yoru - Chapter 13: "A Story of the Stars"
That's why all things come to be known within the Swirl of the Root, because all knowledge is determined or decided there.
Mash: It is the place where all events began. The divine coordinates where the results of past, present, and future swirl, also known as the Akashic Records, it's the ultimate or rather, goal for magi for the magecraft world. Those who reach the Swirl of the Root come to know everything in this world, acquiring Mystery that does not exist in our world -Magic- and gaining the title of Magician.Fate/Grand Order: Cosmos in the Lostbelt - Final Chapter: Chapter 6: Neverending Meteor Shower
It is coming to know the truth of all things of the created world, it is the Swirl of the Root as the telos—pervading the past, present and future unitarily; where all such notions swirl.
The goal for all magi of the magecraft world those who come to learn the truth of the world, a type of wisdom that is as yet a mystery itself. And through that, they acquire a mystery that does not exist in their given era, gaining the title of Magician. But this particular role of the Swirl of the Root within Magic will be elaborated upon later.
Arcueid: The origination of all things a record of the beginning and end of everything. To be connected to it would be to 'discern' the end of everything there is.Tsukihime Remake - Moon Princess route - Day 7: Eyes of Death Perception
The Akashic Records serve as the active [intelligible] source of everything, and thus the source of causal order. It marks the beginning and end of everything, and to be connected to it is tantamount to discerning the completion/end of everything that exists. It is Being/existence in its self-reflective purity, and because Being is intelligibility, it is the independent ontological continuity of all existence as pure knowledge. And the teleological principle that contingent existence follows in its disclosure of the beginning and end.
It’s also called the Akashic Records, though it’s more accurate to think of that as just one function attached to a part of the Swirl.The Swirl of the Root is, most likely, the cause of everything. From there, all phenomena flow outward. If you know the cause, the end will naturally be derived as well.Put simply, you could call it ‘ultimate knowledge.’ Though calling it “ultimate” imposes a standard and reduces it to something finite, so the term isn’t quite correct. It’s just the easiest way to understand it.
But this facet is but one function attached to part of the Root. The Root, properly speaking, is where all phenomena flow, even before causal order, for it is the source of causation, intelligibility and Being itself.
Keyword Explanation ● Root (Origin)That which serves as the starting point of all phenomena. It is the source of all existence, and even the so-called Akashic Records—where everything from the beginning to the end of the world is said to be inscribed—are but a part of this “Root.”
The question of what the Root is, is a question of where all of existence begins. The question of what the Akashic Records are is a question of how existence is ordered.
And because attributes come forth from duality, afterall attributes have an identity and identity requires difference. It is explained in Type Moon, that things tend to duality because it contains more attributes and emerging from「」what is defined by the boundary of「 」thereby making it 'Two' and not 'One' divides itself into. And this comes to be yin and yang, which this process I thoroughly account for here:
In Spiral Paradox, reality is likened to a spiral of tensions (dualities) transitioning into one another, reaching synthesis as further objects become divided and more attributes can be contained:
“What’s important is not the quantity of death. It is the quality of death. Tracing back to the source, the forms a death can take can be categorized into broader distinctions. Dissecting the possibilities of death into every possible route, I arrived at the sixty-four possibilities present here. Here I have gathered the people who shoulder those varieties of death.
Therefore, this place is a microcosm of the whole world. By experiencing their suffering, I am able to comprehend their suffering. I am able to simplify the eight divine signs into four simple forms and arrive at Ryougi, the Two Forms.” “Hmph. Is being unified as one really so desirable, Araya? Light and darkness were not divided to oppose each other, but because they are the attributes that encompass the greatest number of things.
Everything that exists alone is inherently lonely. That is why it tries to divide into many. You just can’t accept that. You study the deaths of countless humans, carefully research their lives, and accumulate that knowledge as your own. Even if I were to die, you would likely store everything about the life and death of Aozaki Touko in some corner of your brain.
Kara no Kyoukai - Spiral Paradox
The contradiction that initiates karma is only relevant to humanity, which is composed of Alaya-Vijnana. A contradiction so primitive that it was the deciding factor between whether or not one overcomes the wall of duality to reach the Root:
“The Counter Force is extremely thorough in preventing the path from being reached. This is because it’s a power that humans should not possess, an act that serves as the means to regress into nothingness. “Once an individual human is complete, the meaning of their existence will disappear. At long last, one could escape from this burning house of worldly desires. And yet the masses of humans unconsciously refuse to achieve completion simply because they want to live.
All humans, the moment they think of themselves as ‘human,’ become less than beasts .
Though they live in order to achieve completion, they refuse completion for the sake of survival. Humanity’s beginnings have always been a paradox.
Kara no Kyoukai - Spiral Paradox
A text that does heavy lifting in explaining causation in logical, not temporal terms. So instead of "the Root creates the world", it is that the human domain pursues "life", not "completion", because in completion the meaning of life ceases to be. And Arcueid suggests that things are too complex to return to the original Source, so the original Source doesn't "create the world", but it is the world that distances itself from the Root. Because we understand that the Root has no will nor deliberation, it is just where all things 'flow'.
Every phenomenon has an ultimate underlying cause, an absolute One. It is the starting—and ending—point of this universe. There exists something there that has 'recorded everything.' Rather than calling it a record, it is simply something that 'exists,' so it cannot be called information. It just 'is.' It has no will in itself, and no sense of direction is possible. It is merely like a primordial vortex, endlessly pouring out causes.
Tsukihime: Piece of Blue Glass Moon - Day 7 - Arcueid Route
It is also described as a 'contradictory' spiral of everything and nothing, the most contradictory thing in fact of Type Moon cosmology. Because it is the synthesis of all tensions, of itself and reality:
“…The swirl of the Origin.
The place where all causes spiral together—where everything is prepared,
and therefore, nothing exists.
And therefore, where, because everything is determined and set (in other words, complete), nothing exists. All causes spiral together there, and connect into that non-complex source that is before attributes, because attributes exist only when the precondition that is division comes to be:
「………Hmph.
So being one is that important to you, Araya?
Light and darkness were divided
for the very sake of opposing one another––」
「It was not separated because it was inferior, but because it is the attribute that contains the greatest number of things.
All things, when they are only one, are lonely. Therefore, they seek to divide into many. You simply cannot forgive that, can you?
Ah, he said. Let slip a sigh. The twinned Shiki, yin and yang, good and evil. It was not antagonism which divided them. Aozaki Touko, the magus, had described it otherwise. That they were divided insofar as each comprehended all the attributes it possibly could
The two-form yin-yang contains the greatest number of attributes unified within two modes of existence; thereafter, there's none that contains any more attributes. Because the source is prior to duality, and the precondition for duality:
“Continuing the 太極図 [Taiji Diagram]. From the chaos that is『 』, what divides into two becomes the 両儀 [Two Forms / Yin and Yang].
From there it divides again into the 四象 [Four Symbols], and then, to further complicate, the 八卦 [Eight Trigrams]…”
As what proceeds from the Root is divided into two, yin and yang.
Consequently, accumulating immeasurable complexity of attributes cannot reach the Swirl of the Root:
Hominids have become too complex.
In seeking omnipotence, we added too many capabilities.
The result: the genes that form the human blueprint are, at base, made of only four types of nucleotides.
And yet, this simple spiral of four bases, layered and intertwined endlessly, leads to a paradox where complexity becomes immeasurable.
Because of that paradox, analysis becomes impossible.
Reaching the source is unattainable from the standpoint of modern humans.
So I thought: if I can’t reach it, I’ll just have to create it myself.
The result was... pitiful.
No matter how much effort I poured into it—All I could ever create was a perfect version of myself.”
Modern humans have diverged too far.
They’ve become an unmeasurable mass of attributes and systems.
We can no longer reach the original.
Attributes and systems—in other words, destiny.
A paradox/tension of chasing omnipotence. Whereby, in pursuit of omnipotence, the addition of attributes and accumulation of many different systems are used to reproduce magecraft. Modern humanity has effectively diverged further from the source. Now, I don't expect you to understand this much. But an example of causation being not about time, but about logical, ontological priority and primacy. If complex things exist, then they are an aggregate of something much simpler and prior.
And we already understand that in Taijitu, which is what the statements were explaining. The Supreme Ultimate, especially unmanifested as a tiny dot surrounded by an unbounded colourless circle. Which is the Supreme Ultimate as Non-Polarity:
Everything is recorded in the Root… Perhaps Shiki is dreaming within the Supreme Ultimate—the dream we call the history of this world, including even our existence in this very moment. Kara no Kyoukai - Movie - Spiral Paradox
In the movie, this has officially come to be designated as the Akashic Records—the record of all creation, the Supreme Ultimate, the dream that is the history of the created world. In terms of Taijitu, it is Taiji er Wuji, a state before the emergence of yin-yang, symbolising the unified state of the two polarities. And importantly, within the diagram, it is unlike yin and yang when manifested, which has a line between the yin and yang symbols, symbolising the conceptual separation of yin and yang. But more importantly, within yin, where there is a white dot, that white dot represents the truth that within yin, a partial reflection of yang exists. Both poles are complementary to one another, and so they transition into one another because they only represent the transformation of reality through recursion and repeated cycles across all levels.
Which is why it is said that the Supreme Ultimate is Supremely Polar, because as the Supreme Polarity, the Supreme Ultimate has dual ways of manifestation. As activity, it generates yang (which represents the category of all motion/activity across all levels of reality), and as stillness, it generates yin. Within the world of manifestation, these two transition into one another, and existing things continuously transition in all facets of their being between yin and yang. Movement/activity proceeds to its extremity and reaches its limit; once it does, it returns to stillness (yin).
This represents receptive aspects, or the mode that characterises all things in stillness. And in terms of Taijitu, at least, it is in reference to this:
The alternation and combination of yang and yin generate water, fi re, wood, metal, and earth. With these fi ve [phases of] qi harmoniously arranged, the Four Seasons proceed through them. The Five Phases are the unitary yin and yang; yin and yang are the unitary Supreme Polarity; the Supreme Polarity is fundamentally Nonpolar. Zhou Dunyi
So the notion of the Akashic Records as 'everything' and 'nothing' refers to the fact that the flow that generates all phases of existences as recursive process of 'nothingness'. And each phase of existence is characterised by a negation of「 」and so the process of reality is not a question “why is there something rather than nothing”. But a question of “if anything was to proceed from nothing, how can it be anything but nothing.
Inside the vortex.
A space where mind, body, time, and space bled into one another like tangled, dissolving threads.
And within it—an incomprehensible record, spreading outward.
That's why a return to that incomprehensible record is a unification of space, mind, body, and time into one another; thereafter dissolving as threads.
The records are the closest thing pure『』so within it, what ensues first is self-relation (I am the flow and the flow is I), then the dissolution of the observer and observed self-relation into pure flow. The observation of everything requires neither the observer, for it would become the observed. And the observation of everything does not require the observer, because it would become the observer and no longer the observation of everything but the observer of everything. Neither would be aligned with Nasu's description of it as the observation of everything from start to finish, lest it is neither the observer nor observed by an activity that is inclusive of both at once (pure flow).
It is ontologically posterior to the Akashic Records, which is observation of everything—the 'I' there is neither a subject under an event or observer seeing the observed. But the 'I' becomes the process (flow) by which all descriptions disappear, and it begins by an experience of self-relation and ends with complete dissolution of experience into pure flow. Since we also witnessed the spirit of SHIKI dissolve completely into it, after that personality was declared dead.
"...Because my origin is the void, the Shiki who possessed that body can see death. For two years—while in a comatose state and unable to see the outside world—the Shiki who only kept gazing at the nothingness called Ryougi Shiki came to know the feel of death."Kara no kyoukai - Epilogue - Novel 3
And much like Gray's experience, the 'nothingness' that Shiki was gazing at was simultaneously the nothingness called『Shiki Ryougi』and because all meaning in that completion/record dissolves into that flow (direction/continuity) of existence.
within them would be a diffusion of souls that led to the Origin.But that way cannot reach the great Source.What can be reached that way is only the Origin of that individual human.Not the Origin of the totality of primates.Kara no kyoukai - Spiral Paradox - Novel 2
When things return to the embrace of unity, it is a return to your beginning in death, but a return to the Origin of the individual human, not the return to the true source of all primates.
The Origin: Principle of Activity And so, the Swirl of the Root (proper) is the existential cause, and the Akashic Records are the intelligible cause. The Akashic Records mode of existence also generates for the principle of individuation 〈〈Soul〉〉 as an expression of its activity.
There truly is a place—a point of genesis—where the soul known as you first began, where your very existence came into being.But that place holds no such thing as ‘life.’What exists there is only a cause—the origin of beginnings—a vector, a directional impulse that determines the course things will take.Like a flash of lightning emerging in the whirlpool that is the source of everything. Kara no Kyoukai - Novel 2 - Spiral Paradox
Before things become and before existents unfold in any intelligible sense, before even the conception of soul. There exists only a point of genesis. A principle where the soul, known as 'you', begins to form and where your existence comes into being. But therein exists no notion of life.
What exists there is only the cause of your soul, a directional impulse that grounds the course one will take. Although it is possible to compare it to the first to reflect the light from the Root, it is compared to a flash of lightning arising within the flow from the source of everything. If the Akashic is the totality of Being in self-articulative flow, or the Root in activity-itself, then the Origin is the principle by which the existent appears through participation in the Origin. It is the ground of its expressions or manifestations defined under that single predicate cause, not a process, not an individual or predicate in the way predicates are understood in relation to a subject.
a spark of purpose arises.A meaning like: ‘to do ___.’ And based on that stream of intent, a matching substance takes shape—and sometimes, that form becomes a human.It’s like… the directional force born from the primal cause. An impulse to ‘do’—or to ‘be compelled to do’—emerging from the swirling chaos of the Root.Kara no Kyoukai - Novel 2 - Spiral Paradox
It ensues from the source of everything, like an imprint of meaning or intellection, what it means for the expressed activity that shapes a substance to be. The stream of intent that arises based on the Origin matches with a substance that takes shape.
In the end, it’s an absolute imperative—something that designs all things with form, compels them toward that shape. Kara no Kyoukai - Novel 2 - Spiral Paradox
They are absolute commands that provide intelligibility to their expressed participants, designing all things with a form that compels them toward that intelligible principle.
Souls are forged with something like a mold—their Origin. Even if we’re conscious of it, we can’t go against the directional force that lies at the foundation of our existence.”Kara no Kyoukai - Novel 2 - Spiral Paradox
Souls are forged in accordance with that mould, that underlying directional force that exists at the foundation of all existence.
The Origin: Principle of Activity II (self-predication, participation, perfection and intelligible nature)
We humans often end up doing things we don’t want to do, unable to resist our desires.Whether it’s humans, plants, or minerals, Touko-san said that this “directionality” she spoke of is fixed—and in the end, everything lives while bound to it.Kara no kyoukai - Novel 3 - Murder Speculation
While it is stated that Origins are the source of directionality (fate) and teleology as expressed powers underlying the individual subordinate to itself through the Soul, across all its manifestations.
Shirazumi Lio himself said he couldn’t control himself…But that’s not true.…Since you seem to be sympathizing with Shirazumi Lio, I’ll give you this warning.Listen carefully:Those who awaken to their Origin do lose their personal identity—But that identity never splits into two.As long as the will of Shirazumi Lio still exists, Then as long as it exists, he’s capable of suppressing his impulses. It’s not like a split personality that flips on and off.He eats people of his own volition, Kokutō. Equating that with the Shirazumi Lio you once knew is foolish. He’s simply deceiving you—drawing out your sympathy.”Kara no Kyoukai - Novel 3 - Murder Speculation
It is also made clear that Origins don't control 'personality' and such, they don't determine the flow of their instances as if they were contained within them as abstract [unmanifested] temporal slices. The personality is never replaced nor split when one's Origin awakens; it is still possible to resist one's own psycho-ontological principle of individuation and activity.
Incidentally, Shiki’s Origin, with her longing for death, is Emptiness. Azaka, who tries to rebel against order, might be called Taboo. Shiki is too close to her Origin, so she’s dragged along by its impulse. But Azaka’s still quite normal, right? That’s because Origin is merely a cause—it doesn’t control the individual. Not unless they become aware of it.”Kara no Kyoukai - Novel 3 - Murder Speculation
The Origin is not a source of directionality, as if it contained the potency to be realised in unfolding. But is a single-predicate cause, an Origin cannot be “to wish for all-things to return to the Root” or “to love my brother”, rather a much simpler, irreducible and indivisible predicates such as “Emptiness” and “Taboo”.
“Well, it’s not something one can usually perceive.But… there are people who are born already close to their Origin.Like those with psychic powers—people like that tend to possess remarkable abilities, and at the same time, they’re more likely to be outcasts from society. Kara no Kyoukai - Novel 2 - Murder Speculation
That's why beings can be born close to their Origins, and others further. Because the depth at which they affect an individual is contingent on the depth at which they participate or stand in relation to their essence. They are not teleological powers, for they are not descriptive principles; they are teleological powers based on participation theory. In other words, the closer you are to them, the further you come to be like an Origin, but primitive predicates that express becoming through their outward flow as causes to their participants.
“Origin refers to something even higher—something more fundamental.If there’s such a thing as a past life, then surely it follows that there’s a life before that too, right? Even if your past life wasn’t a human… even if the one before that wasn’t even a thing—there’s still a continuous thread that ties them all together.Kara no Kyoukai - Novel 2 - Murder Speculation
Which is why it can be expressed in different ways without limit; it is a continuous thread that unifies all of your past lives, existing recursive expressions of the activity rooted in that same predicate in which you participate.
Origin The directional tendency of phenomena that arise from an initial cause.It is the core, absolute imperative that makes an existence “α” be truly “α.”For instance, a being whose origin is “taboo” will, whether born as a human, a beast, or even if it transforms into a plant, inevitably become something that deviates from the moral order of its group.
That single-predicate cause is the core of an existent, which makes x truly be x, by participation under whatever can be expressed outward of the predicate x. And so, if one is born with the origin of Taboo, whether human, beast or plant in their next cycle of becoming, those outward expressions of Taboo will inevitably become existents that naturally deviate from moral order so as to exemplify Taboo.
"Origin" determines the fundamental aspects of magic, then the deeper element, which governs the very essence of existence itself, is the Origin. The Origin is not only possessed by magi but by all beings. It represents an inherent directionality, the fundamental essence that all existence is believed to possess as indivisible. Fate/Complete Material III
Which is why they are altogether, the essence of all existence, believed to be not only inherent or immanent under the conditions of intelligibility it generates, but also indivisible on account of their being single-predicate causes, before those predicates come to be assigned to composite objects. Which, in turn, produces the directionality of all things; and this composite directionality can only be expressed by the third hypostasis: Soul.
The Root outpours causes, the Akashic Records and Origins come to be intelligible causes, and the principle of individuation-within-unity. The soul is a rational cause, the principle of multiplicity-in-unity, and the source of identity and individuality.
The reason for this graded discretion between higher and lower levels is that the further upstream one goes, the less you find determinations to be expressed in multiplicity. And the closer one gets to perfection on the basis of scale in unity, as already gestured towards by earlier explanations of the experience of the Akashic Records in death. Containing the completion of everything not as a composite story, but as a conglomerate of single-predicate causes that by themselves are not predicable of anything but themselves (self-predication).
After all, the Origin does not 'say' anything of the subject other than which predicate underlies the tendency of its activity. It is a phenomenon that exists before subject and object separation, and therefore cannot be reduced to rigid categories that have an aptitude to be described by the language of the finite.
It was dark there, and the depths were murky. Realizing that all around me was nothing but darkness, I accepted that I had died.
Ryougi Shiki floated in a sea without light or sound. Naked and unadorned, the humanoid called “Ryougi Shiki” sank endlessly. There was no end. No—perhaps I had never fallen at all.
Here, there is nothing. Not merely an absence of light, but not even darkness.Because there is nothing, nothing can be seen.
There is not even the concept of “falling.”
The very word “nothingness” likely cannot exist.
Within this 『』—where even description is meaningless—only my body continues to sink. Kara no kyoukai - Hollow Shrine - Novel 2
When one returns to their Origin in death, and experiences the Akashic Records. It is, once again proven not just from Gray's experience but Shiki's experience that predication at best is analogical characterised expressing it by what it is not: Ryougi Shiki sank endlessly for there was no end—or perhaps never fallen at all, there is nothing/nought, not merely an absence of light but even darkness, nothing can be seen and not even the word 'Nothingness' likely exists. Therein, all descriptions are meaningless.
Yet, even words will someday perish. All things fade, vanish, and succumb to death. Without this mortality, the boundary between past and future would blur. It is because things don't return that we cherish them, fiercely guarding against their loss.Kara no Kyoukai - Novel 3 - Oblivion Recording
And it is where every meaning ends; to be at that level is perfection itself. So ontologically speaking, the Akashic Records are not beyond language, for it contains a single directional predicate, a predicate to which its participatory expressions directionally tend towards, regardless of form: Taboo-itself as a single indivisible predicate underpins the unfolding of existents that participate directionally under the Origin [Taboo] that which they tend towards.
Being is fully self-articulate in an immediate sense, but because it is a self-referential activity of Being and those who give meaning (intellection) to Being. If knowledge begins from nothing, and returns to nothing, then in complete knowledge there is both self-articulation, but that self-articulation is self-referential—it is no different from silence.
“Every event has a fundamental cause, an absolute One. It is the starting—and ending—point of this universe. There exists there ‘that which has recorded everything.’ But rather than calling it a record, it is something that simply is, so it cannot be called information. It merely exists. It has no will of its own, and no directionality is possible. It is like the Swirl of the Root, simply letting the causes flow outward.”Tsukihime Remake - Moon Princess route - Day 7: Eyes of Death Perception
As a result, the Akashic Records are simultaneously the starting and end point of the universe at once. There, what is called a record simply is—it cannot be called information nor anything but 'existence' itself, for it merely exists. In merely existing, within it directionality terminates. Not because it is nonexistent therein, but because therein it is not a process but a completely realised reality, a principle without a will of its own that simply lets causes flow outward. These causes are the directionality produced by Origins, whereof at the level of Origins, such a directionality is resolved into reversion as return to a higher unity.
After all, qualified internal differentiation of Origins, the distinctive directionality that spread outward as separable within the world of becoming, is coiled back into a fully intelligible and self-articulate unity.
Mystic Eyes of Death PerceptionAn ability awakened when Shiki fell into a coma and, during that time, remained in prolonged contact with the “Root.”It is said that all things, in the very process of their formation, inherently contain the concept of “death”. Through these eyes, one can visually perceive the “death” contained within objects as black points and lines.This is a type of supernatural ability that cannot be reproduced through magecraft.
All things in the very process of their formation contain the concept of death within them. The process of formation whereof the expressed activity of the Origin, through what manifests from its power, is the most foundational phase of formation. Which is to say the Origins grounded the tendency towards not only your becoming, but your end as well. Which is why, at its level, directionality doesn't exist, because everything is complete, and so death is just a momentary provision into a pure and undivided flow at the limit of your existential activity as an individual. It is through this principle that Mystic Eyes of Death Perception users can see the death of all things.
Intermission
The Origin is not just the directionality things will take, but also determines what directionality things will take in an eminent manner within the Root. In understanding that things that are formed are intrinsically imbued with their implicit directional fated end, then it is apparent that the Origin unmanifested is an activity unified with the Pure Activity of the Akashic Records. And when they flow outwards as a course set forth, for substances to follow in the world of becoming, it functions as a particular expressed activity based on a single irreducible predicate.
But that's all that they are, single irreducible predicate causes. Things just tend towards that predicate x (emptiness, for example), to become like that x-ness. This is a level of abstraction that is not determinate; in the degrees of separable attributes, it has to determine the actual rational fate of all things. It is not a composite activity; it is an unbroken activity of the single predicate x that gives form to all things under x. Which is why the Origin needs another principle to flow into, so that such a principle can produce a rational differentiation in intelligible content based on the directionalities of the Origin.
The Soul: The Principle of individuation II (the activities of the Soul)
The Soul-in-itself
The Soul by itself is connected to the Root, and affections that cause the termination from the Root are the affections of the body within the material world.
Humanity’s beginnings have always been a paradox.....Humans from the time they’re born are already connected to the Root. Kara no Kyoukai - Spiral Paradox - Novel 2
This is why humans are born connected to the Root at the very beginning of their biological birth, because the Soul-itself is already connected to the Root. That's Magic Circuits, which exist within the Soul, can also connect to the Root.
“…That was the reason. Listening to Touko-san’s monologues is fine, but not understanding their meaning feels discourteous as a listener. I wish she would tell these kinds of stories to Shiki or Azaka instead. Yet, feverish as she was, Touko only grew more absorbed in her tale.
‘The reason I became obsessed with doll-making was to reach『』through the perfect prototype of a human being. He, on the other hand, sought not the body but the soul—in other words, something like the cat in the box that cannot be measured. Existence…’
She faltered, as if the words themselves slipped away.”
It is also why it's possible to trace back『』through the Soul, and as explored, it will be shown to be possible with even the body. But one would have to replicate a perfect prototype of a human being, whilst simply tracing back to reach『』through the soul is simply natural. That's why, unlike with the body, the simple act of tracing back that which cannot be handled by 'measure', an existence like that of a cat in a box.
“There is a purpose. But what you said isn’t wrong either. Magi pursue zero—something that was never there to begin with. In the end, their goal is to reach the ‘Swirl of the Root.’ Kara no Kyoukai - Novel 1 - Spiral Paradox
We were trying to reach the『』through what does not exist. The physical body, because it has a definite form, cannot be made transparent. But the soul, having no shape, is already transparent.Kara no Kyoukai - Novel 2 - Spiral Paradox
And much like the Root, which is a principle that cannot be deduced as 'something' or an 'existing thing', but is natural language.
Since antiquity , souls have always been difficult to handle. They're theorized to exist and are considered to be necessary components of magecraft, but only one mage has ever proven their existence. Our definition of souls stops at "that which examines within" and "that which is transferred between vessels". Fate/Stay Night - Prologue
The Soul is also a path to『』through what itself doesn't exist, and so Soul is like『』snd such. Something that is not within the realm of cognition nor observation for mankind, something unlike the body, something without shape/form and is already transparent.
Something that already, but the moment ego and discrimination are introduced, in man recognising themselves as 'humans', they become lesser than beasts. Effectively living to survive, and not living for completion:
All humans, the moment they think of themselves as ‘human,’ become less than beasts. Though they live in order to achieve completion, they refuse completion for the sake of survival.Kara no Kyoukai - Spiral Paradox - Novel 2
By his stroke of ignorance, not understanding Buddhist allegory. Because the 8th consciousness, Alaya, has a dual aspect, one is Alaya-unconditioned and Alaya-Vijnana, which is reciprocal to karmic seeds. The impurities of the karmic seeds don't impede Alaya-unconditioned even when it encompasses them. Now I absolutely agree, in relation to mankind, the Swirl of the Root is Alaya, for Ryougi Shiki, it has been identified as an even higher consciousness level anyway. It is the ninth level of consciousness in Buddhism, Amala-Vijnana, considered beyond the storehouse consciousness (Alaya-Vijnana).
Now I identify the Root with Alaya-Vijnana in relation to mankind as much as the story does, because it is up to the subject to contemplate to come into contact with their true self.
Spoiler: On Aoko
Aoko gives us the only example of what it is like to come into contact with the Root. Kara no Kyoukai tells us that for one to come into contact with the Root, one must become ignorance, but in ignorance one never realises they have reached it. Shiki Ryougi is naturally close to death, and possesses eyes that allow her to see the death of all things from the Root. Ontop of possessing an underlying persona that remains in communion with emptiness, she was capable of retaining that memory (Amala-Vijnana advantages as the superior consciousness).
That's why I emphasised the concept of the soul as receiving "thoughts from the end of the world", because how consciousness progresses towards completion is by seeing yourself directly as unified with the world. We already know this, because the notion of common sense being mysteries in the Age of Gods meant that the Root was a common place and many were connected directly to it. Gods and Divine Spirits are one such example, remember I do mention in op that they are an equivalent of True Magic in their existence and authorities. They are also noted to be largely connected to the Root
“The magecraft from the Age of the Gods allows people to directly access the authority of Divine Spirits. And since Divine Spirits are close to the Root, mages won’t have to search for the Root anymore.” My mentor explained.Lord El-Melloi Case Files - Volume 10
Her perception expanded as she stabilized as a Divine Spirit. Now, connected to the Root, time no longer mattered. She was now able to search for a point in the past while remaining in the present; not because she could see the past, but because she could see everything in the instant that her divine Saint Graph was compressed back into the form of a Ghost Liner. Lord El-Melloi Melloi Case Files - Volume 10
Directly adjacent to the Buddhist allegory regarding the dual nature of Alaya-Vijnana
The Manas, backed by the Alaya, has been the seat of desire or thirst (trishna), karma, and ignorance. The seeds grow out of them and are deposited in the Alaya. When the waves are stirred up in the Alaya ocean by the wind of objectivity, so interpreted by the Manas, these seeds give a constant supply to the uninterrupted flow of the Vijnana-waters. In this general turmoil in which we sentient beings are all living, the Alaya is as responsible as the Manas; for if the Alaya refused to take the seeds that are sent up from the region of the Vijnana, Manas may not have opportunities to exercise its two fundamental functions, willing and discriminating. But at the same time, it is due to the Alaya's self-purifying nature that a great catastrophe takes place in it, known as "turning-back". With this "turning-back" in the Alaya, Manas, so intimately in relation with it, also experiences a transformation in its fundamental attitude towards the Vijnanas. The latter are no longer regarded as reporters of an external world which is characterised by individuality and manifoldness. This position is now abandoned, the external world is no longer adhered to as such, that is, as reality; for it is no more than a mere reflection of the Alaya. The Alaya has been looking at itself in the Manas' mirror. There has been from the very first nothing other than itself. Hence, the doctrine of Mind-only (cittamatra), or the Alaya-only.
“The Counter Force is extremely thorough in preventing the path from being reached. This is because it’s a power that humans should not possess, an act that serves as the means to regress into nothingness. “Once an individual human is complete, the meaning of their existence will disappear. At long last, one could escape from this burning house of worldly desires. And yet the masses of humans unconsciously refuse to achieve completion simply because they want to live. All humans, the moment they think of themselves as ‘human,’ become less than beasts . Though they live in order to achieve completion, they refuse completion for the sake of survival. Humanity’s beginnings have always been a paradox.
Spoiler: Explanation
The paradox is that everything moves towards unity as its realisation, and this is a regress back to the origin: Nothingness. But the nothingness is indivisible, and cannot be abstracted nor determinate, it is「」 and so reaching the Root, one comes into contact with their ideal realisation in magecraft. So for mankind, to come into contact with the Root is simply to see oneself through yourself (world). Because the world is always seeing itself through itself, and is naturally connected to the Root.
Although what grants True Magic is communion with the Akashic Records. Because that's where all knowledge is recorded in a complete activity, and when humans come into contact with the Root, they momentarily experience the truth of the entire world. And what remains after is a trace of the Swirl of the Root, and this is True Magic.
And from there, we understand that the Soul, before it projects consciousness as an expressed activity of itself. In the same way, the Origin generates/determines directionality and also expresses that directionality as its outward activity. However, the phase at which the Soul terminates from the Root is during the formation of the ego-substance. Which only occurs, as explained before, when once sufficiently discriminated between the 'I' and the world. The separation of the external world from the observer.
Soul within the material world: Souls Cyclical Causal Power
Naturally, given the circumstances, it becomes clear that the ego-substance begins only after cognitive-vijnana and karmic-vijnanas. This is because consciousness is an external activity of the Soul, not something that exists within the Soul's essence and its internal activity.
Ryougi Shiki (nihil): If it were possible to keep the brain alive alone, humans wouldn’t need a body. With just an external supply of electricity, the brain could keep dreaming indefinitely—like a magician once told Shiki. You’re similar to them, in a way. Saying that personality is found in the brain. But that’s wrong.
For example, Kokutou-kun, the being that is 'you'—your personality, your soul—is shaped by the accumulation of your experiences and the vessel of your physical body. The brain, as the source of intellect, cannot create personality on its own.Kara no Kyoukai - Novel 3 - Epilogue
The ego-substance arising-dependently, as personality which grounds the ego-substance, is shaped by the accumulation of your experience in your physical vessel. Which is why shortly when you're birthed, you're born connected to the Root but come to accumulate experience of the world of suffering and samsara. All of these seeds of karma, Manas, and impure consciousness (discrimination) are emergent of the soul's external activity as covered here:
The external world is always ambiguous—it’s only within each individual’s brain that ambiguity becomes something definite.Kara no Kyoukai - Oblivion Recording
The external world (the material world or the world as externalised from the self) is always ambiguous and indeterminate; it is the human brain that stabilises that ambiguity into something definite.
But humans… we’re creatures that don’t even need bodies, aren’t we?As long as we have a brain, we’re complete.In the end, it’s just the electrical signals in our brains that make up our world. Kara no Kyoukai - Oblivion Recording
All that exists is consciousness/mind, an already complete/perfect hypostasis. And it is the electrical signs it receives from the soul, that that make up or create the external [material] universe.
Personality, body—they’re nothing more than decorations that make the self easier to understand.
If there’s anything that truly leaves a trace, it exists only inside this head. Because reality is fundamentally composed of consciousness, the only Eternal in the material is the subjective experience of consciousness, archetypal patterns or ideas within the storehouse of consciousness.
The Soul, sometimes referred to as the true self by Touko on numerous occasions. In its essential aspect exists in an higher-dimension.
There is no need to answer. That is the soul. It does not belong to the laws of the material world to which the body is bound, but to something above that—the record of a substance belonging to the concept of the astral plane, the memory of the world itself. …Yes, if the soul remains intact, then even if the body, the genes, or the cells are lost, one would be able to restore what they once were. Fate/Stay Night - Heavens Feel
Something that does not belong to the material to which the body is bound, but something beyond that. The record (memory) of a substance that belongs to the astral world. It is a memory of the world itself, for each particular existent things of reality. In other words, a soul is the activity of a substance that belongs Inner Sea. Existing as part of the Planet's Self-Contemplative activity.
"All human consciousness ultimately converges into the same lake at its deepest layer—or so the idea goes. As a Buddhist monk, you should understand this. It’s not Gaia-theory-like deterrence; instead, it’s the deterrence rooted in the familiar ideology of the Primates. It’s an unconscious alignment of shared opinion that must exist." Kara no Kyoukai - Volume 2 - Spiral Paradox
Which is why the total sum of consciousness of humanity is such that it converges at its deepest layer, the Alaya-Vijnana, another aspect of the mind of the World itself. Intermingled with the Planet's Self-Contemplative activity, it serves as the seat of records of mankind's achievements and realisations (perfections). An essence of mankind that has spiritual ranking on par with Archetypal Beings of the Inner Sea.
Ontologically speaking, above my identity as an individual, there exists a broader existence: ‘Aozaki Tōko as she exists within the world.’If one addresses that version of me, then no matter what personal will I might have, I cannot resist.To deny that would be to refuse to exist in this world itself.Kara no Kyoukai - Oblivion Recording
There is also a distinction between the soul as it experiences the material world, and the soul as it exists inward-oriented within the world, unified with the self-contemplative activity of the Planet.
You see, memory isn’t only stored by humans.The world itself also records memory.It’s a concept similar to the Akashic Records, though what he taps into is a lower-order wave phenomenon than that.Kara no Kyoukai - Oblivion Recording
Mankind is said to receive thoughts as returning from the end of the world. Within the world, the fate of all instances of an individual in all parallel worlds exists as a memory of the world itself. Much to its self-contemplative activity, it is likened in principle to the Akashic Records, but is a lower-order wave-based phenomenon. And this part in particular is important, because the reason why there's this certain degree of symmetry between the Akashic Records and the Celestial Egg is that both of them are self-enclosed systems that unfold outward to disclose the potentialities of things already actual within the system itself. And this is only possible because both are self-contemplative, self-grounding and self-relation with respect to the beings they ground.
In magecraft theory, this dual experience of the soul within the Inner Sea, and the soul within the material world, is likened to the difference between the two aspects of the soul in Daoist philosophy—hun and Po.
Is this even possible?, questioned Jester, the denier of Human Order. She must have a limit to how much power she can exert. Otherwise, the cumulative strains are bound to make this very world reject her. Although... This monster of a god probably doesn’t mind the rejection.
The extent of humanity's transcendental unconscious spirit is such that it rejects the existence of gods, if they so happen to exercise too much of their authority within the material world.
However, if his manipulations go too far against the natural order, Tezcatlipoca himself will be penalised. When the sun no longer reflects off his obsidian right leg, Tezcatlipoca will lose his Divinity, and will become a normal human.
If not, the Gods become penalised and can be degraded from archetypal logos status to becoming a regular human. The effect is not applied to the concept the god embodies or is, as such, but degrades the "God(Tezcatlipoca)", but "Concept(Tezcatlipoca)" remains, as the essence of the God prior to gaining ego: the Ego of the God associated with the concept he is, not the concept itself.
Suddenly, the doors of the keep burst open right in front of the magi still on the ground. From the lobby within, and from the statues in the front garden, something invisible came pouring out. No, as magi, it was something the people gathered there could see. Spirits. But they were different from simple souls belonging to ordinary people. It might have been better to describe them as the leftover energy, an old recording of a personality. For example, in Chinese Taoism, the ' soul ' was divided into two parts: the ' ethereal soul, ' which supported the mind and consciousness, and the ' corporeal soul, ' which supported the body and its functions. The spirits now covering the grounds of the Castle could be completely described as the latter. These spirits were almost entirely corporeal souls. " Ahh, so that's what they meant by angels, " Lord El - Melloi II muttered. Ever since arriving at the Castle of Separation, all of the magi had felt the sensation of being watched by the angels. What if that was more than just their imaginations? The master of the Castle, as the Master of Restoration, had no doubt brought many magi here. Among them, how many had had their Crests repaired, and how many had been harvested for raw materials?
Proposed by Chinese Philosophy, the soul in magecraft theory is conceived of as having two aspects. The electromagnetic waves it receives are causally grounded by the soul, the corporeal soul po. Because it is purely the mind as it outputs its awareness into the corporeal world, in death, it ceases to be. Hun is the incorporeal, the activity that animates all of its instances across all parallel worlds. When a human dies, the soul loses its link to the material world, reverting its field of consciousness inward again.
Even if I gathered hundreds of deaths, indeed, I was merely chasing after the number of deaths.It could not be fulfilled—of course.But there is also a truth that you could never know.I believed that if I experienced tens of thousands of different human deaths, within them there would be a diffusion of souls that connects to the Origin.But that way, one cannot reach the Root. Kara no Kyoukai - Spiral Paradox
This is described phenomenologically as the soul undergoing diffusion, so as to gain a path to the Root. Because at the level of the Inner Sea, all things are already directly connected to the Root. All thinking is meditative and contemplative, inward-oriented.
When it is called a record, it is insofar as it is an activity [directionality].
These are possibilities that exist in every being, for every being, these are meant to be all your possibilities. Melty Blood - Back Alley Nightmare
It is for this reason that possibilities are inherent within a person; every existing individual across all parallel worlds has their own directionality. These are the possibilities inherent to them, but because the True Reality is an internally coherent self-contemplative activity. It is also semantically holistic (only capable of making sense not by its parts but as a whole), capable of only being made coherent by the interrelational nature of things of the Inner Sea.
If one oneself can become this “hollow,” then one can know everything about the universe. Fate/Grand Order - Maris Chaldeas profile
Which is why to be the Celestial Egg is to know everything about the universe, something only possible through the complete self-contemplative and pure noesis of the Celestial Egg (clearly, Maris failed in this department, as only a functional copy of the substance that is the Celestial Egg). Every other creature of the True Reality, except for the True Ancestors, only has partial parts of the entire self-contemplation. Like Leibniz's monads, they only represent a partial view of the entire universe, archetypally so. The Celestial Egg, internally complete and perfect, is also a place for all things of the outward textures to come to be. Every being of the Inner Sea and thereby souls of creatures like humans, internally contains all their potentiality of all its imitations of the surface "material" world, yet simultaneously in-of-itself is the perfection of all potentialities that flow outward to the material world as waves.
Which is why it is described as thoughts returning to the end of the world "Inner Sea", because the Planet remembers all things that have existed on it and all that will.
Eternity must be restored to its rightful place. I shall retrieve your sorrow. Forget as you may, those memories of yours will always be recorded within you,” he said.
Spoiler: Further bits
The Soul within the Inner Sea, never 'forgets' whatever it knows. It is an Eternity that is complete in itself, a being dwelling in the world of eternal cycles in the True Reality.
That is only a lapse in your recollection. Although I am unable to record them, people's memories never truly disappear," he continued. "If you can't recall them, then that means they are lost," I replied. "Forgetting is a result of deterioration. Memories are never lost, they only fade away until they are nothing more than junk. Do you not find it a waste? Eternal though they may be, we allow them to rust of our own volition. Eternal though they may be, we allow them to wither to dust of our own volition,” he said. I offered no answer. Kara no Kyoukai - Oblivion Recording
Forgetting is an accident of the soul as it experiences the world, the finite brain deteriorating in its capacity to hold a given memory. And remember, even when one forgets as they experience the world, the memories of that person always remain as a record within the Soul and if you consider that thoughts are things that return from the end of the universe, and we already know thoughts are received through electromagneticism in the brain as a shadow cast within the Inner Sea. So if you consider both statements, the natural conclusion is that memories and thoughts are already complete within the Soul, and by "thoughts returning from the end of the universe", the intended description here is to say the human brain, animated by the soul, evolves towards the fulfilment already inherent within the Soul at birth.
So the Soul is a particular fragment or fractal of an already complete/actual whole, which is the Inner Sea.
‘The absence of eternity... is itself eternal.’ Kara no Kyoukai - Oblivion Recording
This has the effect that in the existing between the boundary of remembrance and forgetting, consciousness, once it touches upon the material world, is the absence of eternity as eternal itself. All beings, as the dual Alaya-Vijnana, continue to forget as they are born to experience or remember the world.
On the one hand, “samsaric” viññan.a constitutes one of the preconditions for any “cognitive” viññan.a to occur in the first place, since sentience is necessarily concomitant with all animate life, that is, only living beings have cognitive awareness. On the other hand, viññan.a as cognitive awareness is at the center of the various processes within which karmic activities arise. That is, cognitive processes typically lead, via afflictive intentions, to the karmic activities that ultimately perpetuate the samsaric “aspect” of viññan.a, which, accordingly, con-tinues in an unbroken stream throughout one’s nearly infinite lifetimes. As we shall see, the complex relationship between these two “aspects” of viññan.a – in conjunction with the karmic activities informed by craving, etc. – forms the cen-ter of a self-perpetuating feedback cycle that is largely explicable in terms of the intradynamics of mind itself.
The Buddhist Unconscious - The Alaya-vijnana in the context of Indian Buddhist Thought
It is much like how karma and discrimination are self-perpetuating in Yogachara Buddhism, through the two Vijnanas: the karmic Vijnana and the cognitive Vijnanas.
Yet here stood Mr. Kurogiri, someone who had. Ms. Touko once told me that while we all have our own wills, something else exists deep within the massive accumulation, known as the Will of the Primates. If someone possessed the capability to observe such a thing, they would be able to blend into the independent memories and consciousnesses of others. Kara no Kyoukai - Oblivion Recording
The totality of human history then comes to be what returns to the transcendent and indivisible spirit that represents all of human existence. The ocean of Alaya-Vijnana grounds the causes and receives the effects of its own causes, the source of all activity as remembrance and all ends as forgetting.
Because this cycle of relation between cognitive Vijnanas and the karmic Vijnana is self-perpetuating, just as it is in Yogachara Buddhism:
Depending on karmic formations (sankhara) viññan.a arises. (S II 2) Depending on eye and forms visual viññan.a arises. (S II 73)That is, cognitive processes typically lead, via afflictive intentions, to the karmic activities that ultimately perpetuate the samsaric “aspect” of viññan.a, which, accordingly, con-tinues in an unbroken stream throughout one’s nearly infinite lifetimes.
The Buddhist Unconscious - The Alaya-vijnana in the context of Indian Buddhist Thought
Which is why it is likened to a paradox, because it is a tension that cannot be solved by the world.
“The Counter Force is extremely thorough in preventing the path from being reached. This is because it’s a power that humans should not possess, an act that serves as the means to regress into nothingness. “Once an individual human is complete, the meaning of their existence will disappear. At long last, one could escape from this burning house of worldly desires. And yet the masses of humans unconsciously refuse to achieve completion simply because they want to live.
Humanity lives for completion, but in completion, there's no meaning of life. Humanity also rejects completion, by affirming life, affirming that "I am"—the initiation of Manas-Vijnana. The individual will to live, and the beginning of ego and ego-substance; the acceptance of the world as external to oneself, much like in Yogachara, once more:
Manas is conscious of the presence behind itself of the Alaya and also of the latter's uninterrupted working on the entire system of the Vijnanas. Reflecting on the Alaya and imagining it to be an ego, Manas clings to it as if it were reality and disposes of the reports of the six Vijnanas accordingly. In other words, Manas is the individual will to live and the principle of discrimination. The notion of an ego-substance is herein established, and also the acceptance of a world external to itself and distinct from itself.
In this case, the moment one thinks of themselves as human, for example, they've achieved termination from the Swirl of the Root. In short, your direct connection to the Root becomes filtered by ego-substance. So the divine turns into a base creature:
All humans, the moment they think of themselves as ‘human,’ become less than beasts . Though they live in order to achieve completion, they refuse completion for the sake of survival. Humanity’s beginnings have always been a paradox... “Humans from the time they’re born are already connected to the Root. Humans have become increasingly complex, diversified, and distanced from the Root; rarely is anyone born with a connection to the Root.
All things are inherently connected to the Root at birth, and as humans grow to be attached to the affirmation of life, the further they distance themselves from the Root.
Returning to the One Reincarnation 【Noble Phantasm Name】Amita Amitāpa…Savior’s great Noble Phantasm. The fullest manifestation of the Chakravartin King.According to Indian Brahmanical thought, all humans are reincarnations of Brahma, meaning that all humanity is in fact the same individual. (Since Indian reincarnation often disregards the linear flow of time, nitpicking this is pointless.) Based on this idea, all of humanity will inevitably attain enlightenment. Why? Because ultimately every person reincarnates as an Awakened One. Fate/Extra Material
For this reason, it can be said that all things are already reincarnations of Brahma, and all of humanity is the same individual (Alaya-Vijnana). Reincarnation avoids the linear flow of time, so in a sense, individual human beings experience suffering. Every single person will reincarnate as an Awakened One; this is tantamount to reaching the Root as a human and awakening the perfection of human potential achievable by a human at that time.
Which is why the divide between the Inner Sea and the Material World is radical.
Servants are fundamentally part of the boundary record layer; they exist as information and concepts, in other words, as souls.
In other words, for Darnic to consume the soul of Lancer, a Servant, without even conducting the ritual was nothing other than a genuine suicidal act. After all, it was the soul of a Heroic Spirit. A vast and enormous soul of the finest quality that could activate the Greater Grail with seven of them. Therefore, it should have been impossible for a human who wasn’t a [vessel] or anything else to consume such a thing. Fate/Apocrypha - Volume 2
Consciousness has two aspects which embrace all states of existence and create all states of existence. They are: (1) the aspect of enlightenment, and (2) the aspect of nonenlightenment. . . . That a man is in samsara results from the fact that his . . . manas [7th consciousness] and . . . vijnana [6th consciousness] develop on the ground of the Storehouse Consciousness (chitta) [Alaya-vijnana, 8th consciousness] . . . because of the aspect of nonenlightenment of the Storehouse Consciousness . . ." The Ocean of Alaya
Whilst records of the Heroic Spirit in general exist particularly within the records of Alaya-Vijnana, they are intrinsically intertwined with the records of the Celestial. Gaia just exists in a higher record interface and contains memories much vaster than those that are relevant to human history.
Solomon (Lev): The soul is the blueprint for life. The body is constructed according to that blueprint, and the mind accumulates memories by way of the body's action. All of this depends on the soul. Without a soul, one is nothing more than a lump of flesh.Fate/Grand Order: Cosmos in the Lostbelt - Final Chapter
This is why Solomon (Lev) indicates that the Soul is the blueprint of life, to which the body is constructed in accordance with the activity of that blueprint. Likewise, here, he makes it clear that the mind itself accumulates memories by way of the body's action. In other words, memories are accumulated through finite experiences and filters of constraints that are the actions of the body.
"…The soul resides in the brain. If it were possible to keep the brain alive alone, humans wouldn’t need a body. Kara no Kyoukai - Novel 3 - Epilogue
This order of causation is reversed within the material world, as the soul is thought to exist within the brain. And thereby arise relationally alongside the brain, but these need not be contradictions, but different ways of apprehending the soul.
Hasara: A soul isn't made up of data. It's generated in all that exists. I've heard it described as a link from a different dimension, as a waveform generated by the interactions between existence and time, and as thoughts returning from the end of the universe.Fate/Grand Order
Which is why, from the perspective of causation within the material world, it is regarded as 'generated' in all that exists. But properly speaking, such a reference is to a different referent, and that's the waveform of the soul. This is a link from a different dimension that arises within the material relationally in accordance with the interactions between existence and time. And the waveform itself is also thoughts that return from the end of the universe.
The idea of thoughts 'returning from the end of the universe' bit is especially important, because it indicates that thoughts and by extension memories alike are not created. But they are received from a teleological standpoint, for if something is to receive another from the end of the world, then that which is receptive is being moved towards preordained teleological closure.
Da Vinci: A soul that exists in the corporeal world is a shadow cast from a higher dimension, and through the body cast from a higher dimension, and through the body used as a catalyst, it guides the mind.Fate/Grand Order: Cosmos in the Lostbelt - Final Chapter
This is why there's a 'soul' as the expressed activity from the Soul within a higher dimension. The former is like a shadow, cast by the reality of the soul in a higher dimension. It then uses the body as a catalyst to guide the mind towards the link to the end of the world.
Shirou Emiya: ...Mrgh. So I didn't turn into a tree, but I was receiving a transmission of what the tree saw, making me think that I was the tree?Illya: Oh, you're sharper than you look. Yeah, that's what happened. It's a form of magecraft that treats humans like hardware and transposes their input source. It's a big deal to turn someone directly into a tree, but magecraft is still capable of connecting someone's consciousness - to a tree. This magecraft is used for scrying and possession, too.Fate/stay night - Heaven's Feel route - Day 06: beautiful (I) - Scene 09: Winter castle - Ilya (II)
This is also why, under the supposition of the soul as an independent principle. One can move their input source (that which is to receive the waves from Soul), so they can receive transmission of those waves in other physical constituents, like trees.
Illya: Souls are the only permanent thing in the material world. But nobody can make souls exist independently in the world. A soul can't remain here without a body to host it, and once it acquires a body it's bound by that body's mortality. The magecraft you just experienced is about the best we Einzberns and Tohsakas can manage.Fate/stay night - Heaven's Feel route - Day 06: beautiful (I) - Scene 09: Winter castle - Ilya (II)
As it is the body that the external activity acts through as a shadow of itself. The soul, then, when it manifests within the material world, has its activity bound by the material body. And so, even when by itself (in its internal activity) the Soul is the only thing eternal within the material world, it also cannot remain within the material world. In other words, generate its expressed activity without a body, as once its expressed external acquires an output target, it is bound by that target's (body's) mortality.
To make the Soul exist independently in the world is a realm of True Magic, and hence mankind is not equipped to handle such an exercise.
Limit of material animation: (reversion in death)
Ciel: Um, all humans die though. It's not something that we experience while alive, but death always comes for us, doesn't it ? That is nothing more than the cessation of vital activity. When one of the contraptions we call humans ceases to be able to function, people colloquially refer to that as 'death'. When a human dies, nothing is actually lost. On a micro level, there aren't any elementary particles that disappear, and on a macro level, the death of an individual doesn't inflict any loss on the planet itself.
Tsukihime Remake - Piece of Blue Glass Moon: Ciel route - Day 8
When the body reaches the end of its vitality, a human dies, but nothing is truly lost. Not even from a physical standpoint, because elementary particles don't actually disappear.
But even to the Planet-itself, the death of an individual does not inflict any loss upon it.
And as explained earlier, when one does, the Soul diffuses/assimilates back into the flow of the Origin.
within them would be a diffusion of souls that led to the Origin.But that way cannot reach the great Source.What can be reached that way is only the Origin of that individual human.Not the Origin of the totality of primates.Kara no kyoukai - Spiral Paradox - Novel 2
When things return to the embrace of unity, it is return to your beginning in death as—but a return to the Origin of the individual human, not the return to the true source of all primates.
Yet, my feet did not stop. Not even the will to stop arose. The flow itself was me, and I was the flow. Why should I fear returning to the place I was born?... And within it—an incomprehensible record, spreading outward.
To begin with, all that exists within the Akashic Records is the self as the process of emanation (flow) itself. In other words, it's the equivalent of a human as the identity of the observed and observer. If the observer was not the observed, the flow would not be her at the level of the Root. But the flow is her, at the level of the Akashic Records. Rejecting an immediate static reading of the Akashic Records, in exchange for something akin to a continuous flow. It is not "I am 〈doing〉 [something]" or "[something] is 〈happening〉 to me" at that level, because there's no "I" and "It", "I" and "We", "I am" and "it is not". The I is the 〈happening〉 itself, and the 〈happening〉 is a dissolution of 〈happening/becoming〉; as a return to where you began, the beginning as the end. In other words, a human is a record within the Akashic Records.
Inside the vortex.
A space where mind, body, time, and space bled into one another like tangled, dissolving threads.
And within it—an incomprehensible record, spreading outward.That's why a return to that incomprehensible record, is a unification of space, mind, body, time into one another; thereafter dissolving as threads.
Even the whispered voice—“This is death”—is probably a dream. It’s profoundly calm… and utterly fulfilling. This is death. Because every meaning is gone, here merely being is perfection.A world only the dead can reach—A realm the living cannot observe…Kara no Kyoukai - Novel 2 - Hollow Shrine
This is why, out of the many things associated with the Root, under the relational participation in it, death is one of the things it symbolises. Because it is only in death that things return to it. A state which I covered before as being described in terms like “calm and fulfilling” and where “every meaning disappears so that simply being there is perfection”. A world that can only be reached by the dead and cannot be observed directly by the living.
For two years—while in a comatose state and unable to see the outside world—the Shiki who only kept gazing at the nothingness called Ryougi Shiki came to know the feel of death.Kara no Kyoukai - Novel 2 - Hollow Shrine
And this is because when death occurs, one becomes unable to see the outward world and only the world within. This is because the Soul no longer projects consciousness as an output outward of itself. And from this statement, too, the part about Ryougi Shiki gazing at the nothingness that is herself. We understand that form of perception is not the observation of the Root as an external object or existent, but the perception of oneself as the Root itself. In other words, inward-turning, not turning towards the Root as if it were outward.
Had it been the latter, they would perceive the Root as 'there' and them as 'here'. But herein, they perceive the Root to be 'here' as 'me'.This isn't the activity of the observer, nor the reality of the observer. But the activity of observation itself, only in difference, is there an identity. But there's no difference here, and so there's no identity of the observer nor the observed.
"If the observer itself can become the object being observed, [観測 者 そのもの が 観測 さ れる 対象 に なれ ば] then both the thing being observed and the observer remain unchanged." [観測 する モノ も 不変 で あり、観測 さ れる 対象 も 不変] "That is eternal, [永遠] as the magician said." [魔術 師 は 言っ た]Kara no Kyoukai - Novel 3 - Oblivion Recording
Both the observer (subject) and the (object), become unchanging and eternal.
Recording (記録, kiroku) is, in other words, the core (核, kaku) of the soul (魂, tamashii) that is not even influenced by your own thoughts. This is what is preserved (保管, hokan) eternally. Take it into yourself, become one with it, for it is your own wound (傷, kizu). If you do so, even if the world disappears, it will remain within you until the world ends"Kara no Kyoukai - Novel 3 - Oblivion Recording
This mode of being is also the core of the Soul, its activity that is preserved eternally—beyond even your thoughts. It is something that, even if the [material] world were to disappear, will remain within you.
There is no need to answer. That is the soul. It does not belong to the laws of the material world to which the body is bound, but to something above that—the record of a substance belonging to the concept of the astral plane, the memory of the world itself. …Yes, if the soul remains intact, then even if the body, the genes, or the cells are lost, one would be able to restore what they once were.
This activity of recording, which is at the core of the Soul, is an activity/record of a substance that belongs to the astral plane, as the memory of the [Celestial] world itself. And because it's an activity independent of the existence of the body, genes and cells, as long as it remains, one can restore all of those to what they once were.
Intermission: On self-contemplation/self-reversion
Roa, who defines Eternity as such: Teleological Closer
Roa: Perfection cannot be something that exists. It has to be a place for us to reach. Humanity's destination. Humanity's conclusion.
Perfection is a place for humanity to reach. Humanity's conclusion and destination, something that cannot 'exist' because 'existence' is a process that guides one to that conclusion.
Roa: The meaning of my soul. The answer to what it is we must accomplish. I want to arrive at that conclusion.Tsukihime - Near Side: Ciel's route - 9/
The meaning of the Soul, a principle with which we covered beforehand, is the guiding force at the end of the world. That which, in its internal activity, is already 'fulfilled', 'perfected' and beyond life, in perpetual communion with the Origin at the Akashic Records.
Perfect Realisation
Roa: That is the state of true permanence. One onto which nothing can be added, and from which nothing can be taken away. Ergo, the sole thing upon this earth that could be referred to as eternal.Tsukihime - Near Side: Ciel's route - 9/
And much like the Soul already perfected in its inward-activity, this state of Eternity for Roa is true permanence. One to which nothing can be added nor lost, and it is the only thing on Earth that is considered Eternal. Immediately undercutting the idea of this being in reference to the Root, which exists outside of everything.
Dissolution of the observer
Roa: No, it is eternity. I care not if I perish along with everyone else when the time of reckoning arrives. If there is nobody left to observe, then it would mean everything has achieved permanence. The eternity that I embody is temporary, it exists only until that moment comes. I am unable to reduce everything to nothing. That is why, until that time comes, I will continue to live on in this manner. And besides...I now have something else I can look forward to.Tsukihime - Near Side: Ciel's route - 6/
And for Roa, it is only reached when there's nobody left to observe. As it is the observer that initiates the presupposition of the observed, but if it ceases to be, then everything will achieve permanence. Which is actually covered as an exposition of why, as long as the subject and object are separate, then no Eternity can be reached in Oblivion Recording. Hence, existence within the external world does not guarantee Eternity:
"That is not eternity. The external world does not guarantee permanence. Admittedly, human technology will likely create an indestructible medium in the future. However, it is that object itself, not us, that will remain unchanged. Objects only hold meaning with an observer. Even if the object itself is unchanging, as long as the observer's perception isn't, it cannot be considered eternal. Can you observe something today with the same exact mindset as yesterday? No, you can't. The observer's mind is ever-changing. The new turns old, the wondrous fades. The object itself remains unaltered, but our perception alters its value.Kara no Kyoukai - Novel 3 - Oblivion
This makes it clear that the separation between subject and object needs to be bridged before Eternity is reached. Which is why, even if there existed an indestructible medium that exists as human technology. The object itself remains unchanging shall it be, but because its meaning (determination) is held by the existence of the observer. Then the object itself cannot completely be regarded as unchanging as long as the observer's perception itself has not reached perfection.
However, as long as the observer's mind is ever-changing, a condition that does not apply to the core of the Soul within the Inner Sea, which is unchanging and the observation of everything [phenomenologically] through its inward-oriented activity united with the Root. This can only be overcome by the cessation of the external world rooted in extensional predication.
Yet those words are nothing but a scream into the void. The theologian I had been died when I reached the castle surrounded by the flowers of the planet in full bloom. Eternity was already there.... It doesn't matter how many times I depart this world. The hatred and joy I feel each time is still strong enough to tear me to shreds. Back then, I weighed 'knowing all of the world' against 'knowing her'. In that instant, the theologian within me died.
This... this is it! This is certainly it! Eight hundred years ago. I certainly saw eternity itself. - Roa to Archetype: EarthMelty Blood Actress Again - Roa's ending
This Eternity has already been recognised to be Arcueid by Roa several times. Which should come to no surprise considering the qualities associated with this 'Eternity' of the Celestial [Earth] Sphere, not an Eternity outside of the world. But the only Eternal existence of its respective Celestial Sphere. Now we shall go over why this is so, and why Roa regards her as such. But before then, we must reconsult the definitions of Eternity from Oblivion Recording.
So clearly, it is a fundamentally flawed and lazy interpretation to say nothing can be both the observer and observed in Type-Moon. So as to say, it is a 'general statement' rather than a statement about humanity. Which still has no bearing on my interpretation to begin with, because I don't think not being human means you can self-contemplate. It's an enthymeme of my inference, since the argument was that only hypostaseis can perform, as seen with the Soul doing so.
Eternity: Self-Contemplative activity of the Planet
Key Words:Eternity:
But what exactly is eternity? It's that which endures forever. It's that which remains unchanged forever.Kara no Kyoukai - Novel 3 - Oblivion Recording
It is that which endures forever and remains unchanging forever.
Conditions to be Eternity:
You see, whether the specimen is immutable or not, there's no such thing as eternity, correct? Why? It's simple. We are cut off from the external world. Understand, Shiki? Kara no Kyoukai - Novel 3 - Oblivion Recording
The separation between the external world and the 'I' is the reason why the material world has no eternity. Conversely, the unity of I and the world, so that the 'world' is no longer 'external' is the path towards Eternity. In short, the dissolution of extensional predication.
"Being distant [遠] means that it has no form [カタチ]. It is an event [出来事] that does not depend on the observer’s [観測者] impression, but rather controls the observer itself. **That is the only phenomenon that can be called eternal [永遠]—the perfect ‘record’ [記録]”
To be Eternal is to be an event (process/flow) unaffected by the observer's perception, but dominates the observer itself. That is the only phenomenon worthy of being called Eternal, the perfect record of all things. A type of activity the Soul possesses within the Inner Sea, the core of itself: recording.
And as seen before
To be the observer and observed simultaneously, that which is eternally preserved. Which human souls already encompass.
There was an attempt at reversing the interpretation as a rebuttal:
The observer does not observe himself; instead, the observer is themselves observed by the world. -Almighty Telomera
Which (?) does not change anything, it seems, because even this collapses into self-contemplation.
Because the interpretation is not that the Celestial Sphere and humanity [observer] are the same across all levels, the interpretation is that there's no identity of the observer and observed. And the notion that the observer is itself observed by the world, then the world is not the observer (subject), but also not the observed (object). If it were the observer (subject), then it wouldn't observe the observer (subject). And if it was the observed (object), then it wouldn't observe the observer (subject) but would be observed (object) by the observer (subject)
Akashic RecordsQ: When all's said and done, what was the Root that Araya sought? <Canon> > Nasu: The end of history, and a record of humanity's merit. Which is to say, it's the "observation of everything, from start to finish". Takeuchi: Hmm… It's the same with novels, manga, and anime, right? If you don't read or watch all the way to the end, you can't properly evaluate the work. Nasu: That's putting it too plainly, but you have the gist of it. Only, there's no guarantee an individual will reach that "end"…
I take it that the activity of the world is the same in principle (functionally) as the activity of the Akashic Records. Which is an activity not of the observer nor the observed, but what encompasses those dual concepts and allows for an overcoming of that duality into the unbroken act of 'observation'. As I explained earlier, the mechanisms behind this are self-contemplative:
The Root (as the Akashic Records) is neither regarded as the 'observer' nor 'observed', but the observation of everything from start to finish. The choice of the term 'observation' in particular is important here, because if one we to say it is an 'observer' then the observed (in other words manifestation of everything from the Akashic Records) would be be perceptible within the Root. But if it is merely an 'observation' itself, which is a term that includes the internal relation of the observer and observed. But herein it is the self-relation of the observer and the observed. Again, should it be the case that the observer and observed are dual within the Root (Akashic Records). Then, the Root would either be everything observed from start to finish, but who would be the observer to initiate the beginning of the observed? Conversely, if both truly have no beginning and end, then the Root would not be the observation of everything from start to finish nor the end of the world. And remember by observation here, it is meant to exclaim on the Root as a place where all beginnings and ends are recorded. Therefore, the Root is the 'observation' of everything rather than observer observing everything nor the conglomerate of all things observed.
This is why there's a symmetry between the Celestial Sphere and the Akashic Records, because those are functionally (in terms of mode of activity) similar
“Memory doesn’t exist solely within people. The world itself holds memories too.”“It’s similar to the concept of the Akashic Records—though what he uses is a lower-level form of that phenomenon, more like a wave-based imprint.”Kara no Kyoukai - Novel 3 - Oblivion Recording
Which as we've seen through the Soul, which exists within the Inner Sea, it contains a particular set of activities that are inherently perfected. Which is why, when the external activity of the Soul diffuses, the Soul returns to its internal activity—the activity that produced an outward flow (shadow of itself) that animated its given vessel.
To begin with, the notions of 'observer' and 'observed' only hold meaning when there exists such a thing as an 'external world'. It has no meaning to worlds defined by an internal differentiation within the activity of contemplation.
The memories hadn’t been forgotten; they had been damaged. Once that was the case, there was only one method left. Rather than tracing back the past as remembered by an individual, I would have to trace the phenomena recorded by the world itself. Fortunately, I possessed technology advanced enough to make that possible. But it was no use.An observer cannot make themselves the object of observation. A human being cannot shake hands with themselves.Kara no Kyoukai - Novel 3 - Oblivion Recording
Which is why 'humans' not the Soul, but 'humans' as they exist within the material world and are defined as such. Which is why an observer cannot make themselves an object of observation; it is a constraint that exists only within the external world. Because in saying you are the object of observation, one must first look inward—for external perception and objects obscure one from seeing oneself through themselves.
This is why this form of activity is natural and effortless for the Soul when it is no longer confined by the body; this is also why humanity as seen before are infact born connected to the Root. By growing too attached to the external world, creating a perpetual cycle of 'needing' because you attach oneself to external objects. Lack of fulfilment begins from the need for what is external to you.
One must overcome this to 'trace back the fullness memories of the world'. Now back to this:
The memories hadn’t been forgotten; they had been damaged. Once that was the case, there was only one method left. Rather than tracing back the past as remembered by an individual, I would have to trace the phenomena recorded by the world itself. Fortunately, I possessed technology advanced enough to make that possible. But it was no use.An observer cannot make themselves the object of observation. A human being cannot shake hands with themselves.Kara no Kyoukai - Novel 3 - Oblivion Recording
Now, let's entertain the notion that the condition applies to tracing back the memories of the world, and not the world as it possesses memories. Then it would follow that the Planet cannot trace back its own memories completely; however, if that follows. Then the activity that maintains the existence of the substance known as the 'human soul' would not be the very activity that is self-contemplative. And so, the soul would not be capable of self-contemplation in death, but that occurs so that it can't be.
Furthermore, if the mind of the world cannot trace back its own memories. Then it could never follow that the world can know of all events:
In the world of magecraft, these are called “Archetypes.” The spirit ahead of us is one such being—an extraordinary recorder. …A being that knows the distant history of life, from long before humanity was born…Fate/Grand Order: Cosmos in the Lostbelt - Nahui Mictlan: Golden Sea of Trees Travelogue, Section 14: Terminal Observatory Metztitlan
In fact, Celestial Spheres are outright stated to possess knowledge of all things.
Refer to my last self-quoted "earlier response again" spoiler tab.
In relation to that, it wouldn't make sense had the Planet been incapable of self-reversion, if the existence of the Inner Sea, where its inner activity is itself a kind of True Magic.
It even rejects interference from parallel worlds via the Second Magic. This “absolute defense” capable of deflecting even magical attacks is, in itself, a kind of true magic.
One such that it can even repel interferences from Second Magic. Because the condition to attain that would require contemplation. Not contemplation in the way Magicians even perform it, but contemplation that allows for the existence of the contemplator to be itself self-contemplation and so too its activity.Which makes even more sense, on account that Arcueid/the Ultimate/Original One is called the lord of the 'mystical'. And why beings of the Inner Sea are either True Magic-itself in their existence, connected to the Root, capable of reproducing effects on par with True Magic or all of the above. Because they intrinsically have contemplative activity, something I explained in responses above:
The magecraft we know of is no more than the manipulation of formulas. It is only a trick to briefly fool the world....
“We only know how to fool the world. They had the power to rewrite it however they wish. That is how powerful Divine Spirits are. Of course.
As seen before, True Ether is the substance that forms both the Gods and Celestial Bodies themselves, a type of mana that is not only greater in quantity proportional to bare ether, but greater in quality proportional to Ether.
Even I was at danger of being crushed by it. To the people of the modern age, Magical Energy from the Age of the Gods was basically a poison. Unfortunately for me, the Magical Energy here was infinitely close to that of the Age of the Gods. Ever since I arrived here, my Mystic Eyes had been burning with pain more intense than I had ever felt.
The power of the dragon had created a space that preserved the texture of the Age of the Gods which was supposed to be lost. For this reason, all the creatures and plants that had evolved in Albion were completely different to their counterparts on the surface. It was the only place where Magical Energy could emit light.
Source: Lord El-Melloi II Case Files Volume 10: case. Grand Roll (Lower) - Chapter 1, Part 4
Essence
Divine Spirits are degraded vestiges of Gods:
Spoiler: On Divine Spirits being Degraded Vestiges of Gods
It is a personification of the Sun, a "degraded" version of Amaterasu Ōmikami (the Sun Goddess). When Caster Fox enters their nine-tail form, it does not turn into this exact appearance. Rather, this represents the original, ancient form of Caster Fox, which still exists in the present.
However, this needn't be understood as ontological degradation. What is meant when it is said that Gods became Divine Spirits, is insofar as they have lost their bodies to several cosmic extinction events that struck them. The attack from the White Titan, the embodiment of destruction and the destroyer of Civilisations. It destroyed the true bodies of the manifested aspects and concepts of the True Reality, with another notable one being Ragnarok.
Memory was not forgotten, but rather, it had been damaged. In that case, there is only one method. It is not to trace the past remembered by an individual, but to trace the phenomena recorded by the world itself. Fortunately, I had the necessary technique to do so. However, it doesn't work. An observer cannot observe themselves as the subject. One cannot shake hands with themselves; that's just how humans are.
And this extent of contemplation is found in the world's perception of the the Inner Sea as both itself and its own observer. The observed here, come to be perfections of nature, determinate aspects and concepts that fall under its actuality.
People had their languages confounded by God. This happened in an age when the existence of God was still acknowledged—a time called the Age of the Gods.
Back then, mystery wasn't something mysterious—it was treated as common sense. It was a world of swords and sorcery, so to speak.
The kinds of mysteries that are impossible now were not so difficult to perform in that era.
Heaven and earth once were one.
The land where mankind took root was a mirror image of the celestial sphere.
They formed a Trinity, although not the one that the term is normally interpreted as.
In the ancient times, all was connected as one, and was expressed as merged parts of the gods.
Regarding the former quote, that meant in the Age of Gods, the Heavens and Earth were phenomenologically unified, truths were perceived not as objects to fragment, but principles inherent to the subject itself. That is, everything (including humanity) was a part of the gods, the archetypal concepts of the True Reality. And it was the humans who believed in those subjects to be objects that encompass subjects or themselves. It is for this reason that true magic was common, and the impossible of today was possible.
Magecraft chases the past, to isolate mystery from knowledge, and science chases the knowledge as isolated from mystery: the future. Both of them pursue zero, but both divide zero in their pursuit, thereby distancing themselves from zero. True Magic is the unity of knowledge as mediation and immediacy, for it asserts what is true of which it engages with in mediation, on the basis that it is true; thereby being an immediacy.
Beyond that, supposing the world could not contemplate. Then there would be no explanatory power for how the Inner Sea can be Eternal:
"That place is the final paradise, where flowers of various colors bloom in abundance. During the day, it is filled with the sunlight of spring and the scent of summer, and at night, it is covered by the air of autumn and the winter stars. There are flowers and insects, and in the forest, there is water, greenery, and beasts, while the water's edge is inhabited by beautiful fairies. In mythology, it was also known as the land of eternal spring or the island of apples...To the wise beasts, it is an unattainable, unreachable utopia. Its name is Avalon. It is another name for the soul of the planet Earth, within the stars, and its resting place."Tower at the end of the World (craft essence) - Fate/Grand Order
Which has been outlined to be Everlasting and Eternal two times, and we know should be because the core of the Soul is also eternally preserved as a record and where it is preserved is within the Inner Sea. Something that I've already covered, that is the ways in which Eternity of the Celestial Egg's activity is instantiated between its Inner and External Activity here:
The Inner Sea is a realm already of the perfect, ideal and complete; it cannot be affected by any and all cycles of death and destruction within the material world.
The Fairyland Avalon where King Arthur rests. The wielder will heal from any wound, and the aging process will cease. Unleashing the true name of Avalon will deploy a Bound Field that provides the greatest defence.
Therein, inhabitants of it who dwell within it in spite of being from the material world, cease to age from within it. The age of gods and likewise the primitive ages of spiritual affairs are eternal cycles, with the material world mankind being transient in comparison
While the Age of the Gods was like an eternal cycle, the modern age was transient. In a certain sense, the jewels that Luvia had expended and the mages that entered Spirit Tomb Albion to find remnants of the past were emblematic of the age that we lived in.
It is not an era whereby the Planet unfolded linearly outward; it is an era where the Planet begins to reflect itself onto itself. It is an era of perfection of the world, reflecting onto one another, to constitute the order within the Planet's self-contemplation.
A land at the end of the world where they would be eternally forbidden to set foot.
The beginning of worlds that exist at the end of the material world, yet are also causally before the material world. If the Original One is the beginning of all its creatures and the perfection/fulfilment/end to all its creatures, then it stands to reason the Inner Sea is where all perfections are realised. It is for this reason that some mages have opted to return mankind to the age of gods, to force a spiritual ascension into beings on par with Gods. Because Gods are entirely self-sufficient entities, eternal and perfect concepts, Gods are higher beings, and can bring about salvation. This is why Fairies on the other hand, had no need for the concept of a god, having enough power to not pursue salvation from what is greater than them.
Avalon will continue to exist until the end of humanity.
Nevertheless, Avalon will continue until the Unconsciousness of the World and the Consciousness of the World become tangled once more. That is to say, it will exist until the end of humanity, a world that humanity unconsciously aspires to reach.
There's simply no gap between the observer and observed at the level of the Inner Sea and the mind of the world (record/activity). If the observer is observed by the world, of which the observer is also an extension, of the activity of the world. Then the observation of the observer is the, is the observation of the observed simultaneously. As the observer, when observed, becomes the observed and the observer. Yet, observers like humanity who observed objects as external to them. And the very objects external to them, as part of the Planet's observation.
Nero Claudius: Everything in this universe will someday vanish. All things are part of the Planet's history. This planet makes use of every living creature...because it is dreaming a single dream.Fate/Extra Encore
Which is why even the beings that appear in the material world don't create a duality between the world as the observer and then as the observed. It is the act of observation, the Planet dreaming not beings that are external to it. But dreaming of beings that are within it, and through them simultaneously. A single unbroken activity of dreaming. Which cannot be described neatly in dual terms of observer and observed, for it covers both. And if there's no such gap to the world as that of the 'observer' and 'observed', then there's nothing external to the world for it to observe without being reduced to that duality.
Because the only reliable method to define such an internal relation, is if the mind self-contemplates. And hence doesn't just see itself, but sees itself through itself.
The Inner Sea and Celestial Egg (and thus the mind of the world) as Teleological Closure
On account of Roa' exposition on Eternity, especially on account of it being the conclusion and destination of mankind. It would seem contextually too, this refers to both the Inner Sea and Celestial Egg.
Avalon will continue to exist until the end of humanity. She recognizes that Avalon is the "ideal future that humanity aspires to reach." For that reason, the Avalon she resides in is not locked, but instead left open as the finish line for humanity.Her staff points beyond the horizon. To "hope" itself, which continues to shine beyond eternity, that keeps people running towards it even to this day. That is why she points to it.So that those who keep moving forward don't come to a standstill. So that their journey doesn't come to an end.
The Inner Sea, or in other words Avalon will continue to exist until the end of history and humanity. It is an ideal future that mankind aspires to reach, a horizon beyond the Eternity (linear Eternity) of the material world.
the weapon gained knowledge of its own af t er descending to the earth and interacting with humans. It then tried to bridge the worlds of gods and men in its own way. The Chisel would indeed be returned to the gods — in other words, by approaching the gods.That is, gods would not rule humanity. And humanity would make its way to the realm of the gods.
The goal of mankind, beginning from gods no longer ruling humanity but humanity of its own independence, making its way back again to the realm of Gods (the Reverse Side of the World).
On Language: The ineffability of True Magic, the Inner Sea and the universal language
Let's just be clear on the definition of "space" and time in metaphysics. Aside from science, the definition of space and time is, in its most abstract sense, the field of relations between numerically separable and distinct objects, and there are many ways to map this. Either through things such as the distance between the two numerically distinct objects. Now we run into an immediate problem when we try to apply this to the Inner Sea.
To begin with, ontologically true magic is just communion with the higher parts of the soul, in simple terms, and phenomenologically it requires the externalisation of the world through the ego, as I've explored beforehand. And the Inner Sea is opposed to this, one must recall once more that the self-relational awareness of the Inner Sea is co-dependent on its existence. That's why its Eternal and self-sufficient, because it is self-thinking (contemplating) manifests aspects of itself like gods, bunrei of itself like fairies and avatars of its will like True Ancestors. And manifests its existence, yet simultaneously, its existence as the Inner Sea is not separable from its activity of contemplation.
This is because activity exists as a result of the Celestial Body (Inner Sea) existing, and conversely, the (Celestial) vessel exists because the activity of the Planet thinking its (Celestial) vessel. That's just the point I was making when exclaiming that True Magic and Inner Sea are non-extensional maximally, because it is baked into the power system. I urge you not to read these statements by counting how many buzzwords one can pick out to use as motivation for 1-A, but by seeking out the intention of the writer when he has these characters and narration express these statements. To return to this:
-Time stopped.
Position lost all meaning. It appeared as if the rigorous certainty of space and time itself had been lost.
This statement was about a miracle (True Magic) of Ultimate Beauty. Which is much like the ones beforehand.
Nevermind the lightning Atram had attempted to unleash, even the storm clouds that had choked out the night sky had been driven away. The Weather Manipulation Magecraft brought about by dozens of magi working in concert was stripped away like it was no more than a thin sheet of paper. Lord El-Melloi II Case Files - Volume 3
Strips away phenomena like magecraft as if it were no more than a sheet of paper, and amidst this, it also dissolves the meaning and certainty of positions, space and time. The reason why True Magic does any of these things to begin with is that it dominates the collective unconscious; by extension, Manas/human order of humanity in its own world of dukka (suffering, attachment). There is no way to qualify True Magic through the laws of mankind; these are laws that initiate externalised relations. Because recall that in the Age of Gods and other eras of mysteries like the Age of Fairies, all of which have been withdrawn into the Inner Sea to continue still to this day. These are eras where the world is in tri-unity, everything was internally related and not externalised (separable)
Heaven and earth once were one.T h e land where mankind took root was a mirror image of the celestial sphere.T h ey formed a Trinity, although not the one that the term is normally interpreted as.In the ancient times, all was connected as one, and was expressed as merged parts of the gods. Fate/Strange Fake - Volume 9
There's just no meaning of "space" and "time" to things at the level of True Magic, because the concept of "space" is antithetical to the concept of "non-duality" and "anatta/no-self(egoless)". You can reconcile non-duality with a mode of apprehension that possesses internal differentiations and real internal relations, especially if each section is composed of either contemplation or beings in contemplation (Gods, Phantasmals, Heroic Spirits: they exist as pure soul, Elementals, Archetype). Then each section of the Inner Sea is purely ideal; there's no gap where extensionality can be included.
All that exists there is intelligible content, which we know to be completely free from the notions of "space-time", not because of an obscure buzzword like "concept of space-time" being used in addition to it. But because space-time does not principally apply there.
Nevermind the magi gathered, even the animals and insects of the forest - no, even the earth and rain felt the impact of that essence. If evolution meant the optimal adaptation of one to their environment, then it was a conclusion of form and measure that threatened the end of the world itself.
Right after they say the miracle [True Magic] dissolved the meaning and certainty of space-time. They exclaim at the very end that what it represented was the end of 'form' and 'measure' (quantitative). Because the application of such things requires externalisation.
It was ___. The word didn't even come to mind. Lord El-Melloi II Case Files - Volume 3
There's a reason why these things are regarded as 'mysteries'; it is not poetic fluff. These things are traces of「 」and therefore mirror the elusive nature of「 」as it reproduces miracles. Because there's no measurable way to define True Magic as it is, and no natural language that can define it. Form and measure (language of quantity) are emergent in natural language, language of reason and rational, language of common sense, and mathematical language.
Among the imperfect languages allowed to man, one had to admit there was nothing that could contain what they saw. It was said there was once a Sealing Designated magus who used the Unified Language (Master of Babel), words which allowed no mistake, to which the entire world - living or not - could not but obey. Her _ was much the same, a purity that reached into the depths of the Root itself. Lord El-Melloi II Case Files - Volume 3
But True Magic is a mystery that cannot be contained by any natural language; all of them are considered equally imperfect to True Magic. I even consider the gap to be like that of zero and any finite number, even if you stretch to infinity, Being and Non-Being; zero and one are difficult to reconcile. There's no scientific or natural way to explain how Beauty at its highest purity is something that can dissolve even the 'meaning' of space, position and time into「Zero」
The language of Babel (unified language) is much like this, a miracle of great purity reaching into the depths of the Root itself.
It wasn't a simple loss for words.To those magi who had been moments earlier pushing themselves to their absolute limit, engaging in a contest of souls that overshadowed any other kind of conflict, it was all they could do to just remain standing.
It is a phenomenon that dominates the world of desires/material world, rooted in the ego. Something that even suspends it. This is what makes gods and Celestial Beings especially powerful, because common sense for them is mysteries; they remain connected to the Root and the Planet. Even withdrawing back to its Inner Sea at the end of their era, essentially, for them, miracles are also common sense. Because there's also no measurable way to define a manner by which fire can burn the entire universe in the way Shiva can burn the universe with his flames, in the context of modern science in human order.
If it can direct minimally, if you perceive it experientially as a driving force, the Gods of love direct with their authority. There's no reason 'why', and there's no definable way to reach the why. It is simply God's doing what they can because their causal power encompasses that idea of 'love'
Given this earlier exposition, I believe True Magic should intrinsically reproduce effects on a 1-A. Due to its transcendence over extensional predication, and a phenomenon that operates on a level where there's no natural language of mankind that can express it in words, for it is『』
And given that the Inner Sea, where the Soul of the Celestial exists, is considered an existence that's a type of True Magic as well.
Then it follows the Inner Sea is incomprehensible and cannot be described sufficiently by any natural language (simpliciter). Which is what it is noted to be, a world beyond comprehension. And as a testament to its non-extensional nature, when Atlas institution tries to measure its location based on natural coordinate systems of mankind.
And the computer itself just reported 'impossible to measure', which would contextually be the basis of True Magic just being completely removed from the conceptual framework of the human universe.
And magic is the act of handling the sun itself. Going to a place no one can reach, and bringing about a miracle that no one and nothing can imitate or reproduce. No matter how much money you spend or how much time you spend, a technology present humanity cannot reach. That is magic."Or rather, it is like crossing the wall of dimensions. If you try running all the way to the end, there is a world made by completely different rules, and you end up learning those rules..... I suppose that is what it comes down to."Before, I told you that magecraft has no limits, right? What that meant was that, so long as it remains within the range human knowledge can reach, it has no limits. Magic, by contrast, is full of limits, or rather, it can only accomplish one single mechanism, but that is only natural. Because it is a single point of light, excluded from the concepts of this universe."
Something that can only be attained by crossing the wall of dimensions, so as to run all the way to the end to come across the Sun itself. Therein one learns those rules. True Magic is like a single point of light, something excluded from the concepts of the human world entirely.
To quote myself regarding this reference to the 'point of light':
Which explains why even True Magic itself is associated with『』from a phenomenological perspective. It is functionally the same reason why the unconditioned Soul is associated with『』as I've explored numerous times.
What is more fascinating about the descriptions of Ultimate Beauty is that it is on par with the unified language in its purity and connection to the Root. It was achieved by physical means, not through scientific means, of course, but through theurgy. This demonstrates that True Magic has no care for what substance a thing is made up of, but simply cares for what ritual symbolises the ways of the Root. So as to reflect the nature of the Root directly through a medium of the world. But once the path to the Root is garnered, the distinction between what the substance is and what it reproduces collapses into「 」
In the context of Ultimate Beauty, it was reached through the interplay of two facets of the supreme body (yin and yang). And Caleena, having gazed at the Beauty of those two girls. Their Beauty was reflected onto her, uplifting her to a higher grade of Beauty through that tri-une relation. Yet in spite of that, when ultimate beauty manifests through Caleena by her participation in the two Beauties.
-Time stopped.Position lost all meaning.It appeared as if the rigorous certainty of space and time itself had been lost. Nevermind the magi gathered, even the animals and insects of the forest - no, even the earth and rain felt the impact of that essence. If evolution meant the optimal adaptation of one to their environment, then it was a conclusion of form and measure that threatened the end of the world itself.It was ___. The word didn't even come to mind. The Case Files of Lord El-Melloi II Vol. 3 - Twin Form Tower (Lower)
It cannot be expressed by any means, not physical means, not metaphysical means. But it was just a declaration of the conclusion of form, space, human language and time.
Regarding the former quote, that meant in the Age of Gods, the Heavens and Earth were phenomenologically unified, truths were perceived not as objects to fragment, but principles inherent to the subject itself. That is, everything (including humanity) was a part of the gods, the archetypal concepts of the True Reality. And it was the humans who believed in those subjects to be objects that encompass subjects or themselves. It is for this reason that true magic was common, and the impossible of today was possible.
Heaven and earth once were one.The land where mankind took root was a mirror image of the celestial Sphere. They formed a Trinity, although not the one that the term is normally interpreted as.In the ancient times, all was connected as one, and was expressed as merged parts of the gods.
The Age of Gods and eras of mysteries, which currently take place in the Inner Sea. Were ages of unity, wherein everything was expressed as merged parts of Gods.
People had their languages confounded by God. This happened in an age when the existence of God was still acknowledged—a time called the Age of the Gods.Back then, mystery wasn't something mysterious—it was treated as common sense. It was a world of swords and sorcery, so to speak.The kinds of mysteries that are impossible now were not so difficult to perform in that era.
Therein, mystery itself is common sense. And under those terms, the world was not only stronger, but language itself was stronger too:
it wasn’t just the world that was superior in the Age of the Gods—but that language itself was superior back then.Kara no Kyoukai - Novel 3 - Oblivion Recording
This language is formless and bereft of structure, unlike the languages that arose as divided fragments of it:
But… is it truly possible to convey meaning that applies to all things? If such a thing is possible, then that language wouldn’t be one used between people—spoken from person to person. Rather, it would be a formless language, a language through which a person speaks directly to the world itself and determines meaning through that act.God confounded language.Fearing that language, He bestowed upon humanity the structured, shaped languages we have today.Kara no Kyoukai - Novel 3 - Oblivion Recording
It is called the Unified Language, the master of Babel. It is a divine language that communicates to all living things:
The one and only language that once spanned the entire world, before God’s disruption.We now call it the Unified Language—and Godoword became the only magician capable of reproducing it.The Master of Babel.A means of communication common to all living things…That is none other than a gateway to the Origin itself.
A language that acts as a gateway to the Root itself.
Among the imperfect languages allowed to man, one had to admit there was nothing that could contain what they saw. It was said there was once a Sealing Designated magus who used the Unified Language (Master of Babel), words which allowed no mistake, to which the entire world - living or not - could not but obey. Her _ was much the same, a purity that reached into the depths of the Root itself.
It is this language that is compared to the『』that was the Ultimate Beauty of Caleena. The Ultimate Beauty can only elude imperfect languages of mankind, that fragmented from the unified language. But it is only the unified language that exists on the same standing as『』itself.
“If it’s a human, they can at least respond in their own language.”“Huh... but then, does that even mean anything? If there’s no reply, isn’t it just him talking to himself?”“If it were just language, then yeah, it would be.”“But his case is different. He doesn’t simply ‘speak to’ rocks and beasts. He imprints his will upon them. And more than that—he’s not talking to the rock or the beast. He’s talking to the world itself.”“From an ontological hierarchy, there's something beyond just ‘me’ as an individual. There’s the existence of ‘Aozaki Touko as part of the world.’ If someone speaks to that—to my existence within the world—then my personal will alone can’t resist it. To reject it would be to reject my very existence within the world.”“Language is absolute.”“His words become truth itself.”“Godoword—Satsuki Kurogiri—is the ultimate hypnotist, one whose influence extends to all things.”“Memory doesn’t exist solely within people. The world itself holds memories too.”Kara no Kyoukai - Novel 3 - Oblivion Recording
Incidentally, it is only this language that can communicate with the world-itself—at the level of its memories. And unlike discursive means of articulating the world. This language doesn't express anything; he merely imprints his will upon the world itself through that language common to the Age of Gods. And so, his words become the truth itself for that language is absolute.
Because only his appearance and ability are known to all, many mages in London believe he doesn't even truly exist. The magecra? he utilizes is exactly as his moniker suggests: God's Word. He has complete command over every language spoken by any race or tribe that currently roams the world. When I say complete, I don't just mean that he can speak them. He knows everything that has ever emerged from them, beginning from their conception. Their history, their beliefs, all of it. There exists no word that he cannot speak, and there exists no race of man that is unknown to him. However, he did not acquire this knowledge by traveling the world. God's Word learned only a single language, and his understanding of every other one is nothing more than a consequence of that. Surely you've heard of the Tower of Babel, right? It's a myth about the gate of God that's been passed down in Babylon."Kara no Kyoukai - Novel 3 - Oblivion Recording
And because languages built the conceptual frameworks and basis of entire worlds. Having such a primitive and universal language like the unified language, one can come to command every language spoken by any race or tribe that roams the current world. Not only the language, but also the knowledge of just the language, and what that language has provided as a conceptual foundation for the world of man. This means one comes to know everything that has emerged from those languages from their conception.
Their history and their beliefs altogether. No word left unspoken nor incommunicable, nor any race unknown to the user. All of this is a consequence of knowing that unifying and universal language.
This is a testament to True Magic's absolute transcendence over discursive language, and not only that, but the Inner Sea's transcendence beyond the conceptual basis of the material world simpliciter.
RECAP
Miscellaneous
The Mystical, Talent and Participation in Origin
But no experience in childhood can transform an adult’s consciousness so thoroughly.That kind of thing… is how they were before they were even born. Souls are forged with something like a mold—their Origin.
The principle that proceeds directly after the Origin is the Soul, to which its Origin is a mold.
Indeed, if nothingness is her origin, then she would probably wish to return all things to nothing. Therefore, without exception, Shiki could kill any thing. Even if the personality called 'Shiki' tried to deny it, that was the primal pattern of her soul.
The Origin is the primal pattern etched into the Soul, and it is through this that it starts to subtly influence the persona. Through entering the will generated by the Soul, in Shiki's case, her primal pattern of the Soul being nothingness meant she had a wish to return all things to nothing. In other words, wished to return things to completion, where life ceases to have meaning: the Akashic Records. This can only exist in the world of becoming, because Shiki experiences the dependent world and the ultimate world at once.
This is Shiki's karma, who after the death of her other persona as it dissolved into the Root, Shiki lost her yang (symbolising life), becoming closer in her Origin participation through her female (yin: symbolising stillness and death).
Yes — that is Shiki’s ability. Like Asagami Fujino, she has a special channel: a way to see things different from ordinary people. A special eye that can glimpse a microcosm of the world called the vortex of origin.
The karma that she gained from that, and as a result of having the origin of nothingness, was the capacity to glimpse at the microcosm of the world known as the Swirl of the Root. In other words, miniature facet of the Root, the Akashic Records.
This allowed her to have the ability to kill all things without fail, by glimpsing the conclusion of all things within the Akashic Records.
Degree of participation, however, is not differentiable within the Soul as such, but what the Soul generates, which is consciousness-dependent on the personality. With the primitive example being the three personalities of Shiki, SHIKI and「Shiki」all three parts of one soul. And all three are different spirits (personalities/egos), each with varying degrees of participation under their Origin. SHIKI did not possess the latent potential to see death, because that ability was only unlocked by yin (stillness) upon long contact with the Root. We know Mystic Eyes of Death Perception aren't just bestowed based on the experience of the Root. After all, Gray and Roa, many others have experienced death and come back without being bestowed such abilities.
And we also know that the nihil personality (spirit) of Shiki has a much deeper communion with the Root. Even more so than her yin personality (female).
—That is Shiki's capability. Much like Asagami Fujino, she perceives a unique channel in which things unseen by others become visible. When she "looks" at them, she is seeing a glimpse of the architect's floor-plan for all reality. That is the "swirl of the Root." —But I can see much further than that. No, rather - I may well be that "swirl" myself.
And beyond all of this, it is important to reiterate again that in death, it isn't the Soul that dissolves. Because we know it wasn't the Soul of "Shiki Ryougi" that dissolved into nothingness, but a specific ego (personality) that was SHIKI (yang: her male personality/spirit)
Only my senses expanded.
Perhaps it was because I was on the verge of death.
Freed from the constraints of a physical vessel, my spirit and soul had begun to stretch beyond their limits, amplifying my true abilities.
Perhaps that was why—
At this moment, I could see it.
Inside the vortex.
A space where mind, body, time, and space bled into one another like tangled, dissolving threads.
And within it—an incomprehensible record, spreading outward.
And from Gray's exposition, we are told the condition to witness the Root again. Is merely for the Soul to be freed from physical constraints (its external activity that animates the body). And when that occurs, one's senses expand through that inward-reversion. And the spirit and soul stretch beyond the limits they had within the body.
Her perception expanded as she stabilized as a Divine Spirit. Now, connected to the Root, time no longer mattered. She was now able to search for a point in the past while remaining in the present; not because she could see the past, but because she could see everything in the instant that her divine Saint Graph was compressed back into the form of a Ghost Liner.Lord El-Melloi Case Files 10
“In short, you humans have become the representatives of the planet, but you guys can be rolled up like a thin layer of cloth. What do you do when you have a piece of cloth that's about to blow away in the wind?
Unlike the Inner Sea, as will be seen. The material world or surface texture is an entirely contingent and ontologically impure reality. So much so that it requires another just to remain anchored to the very Celestial Body with which it depends. Without that anchor, it is so transient as to be that which can be blown away by wind (figuratively speaking, of course).
Its contingent nature is further exemplified in a few passages after:
“The directionality———mentality of the intelligence that humans obtained wished to illuminate the darkness of "uncertain laws." As a result, it appears that the planet's rules have altered into "laws optimized for the survival of humans.
The surface texture or the material world initially existed in Prime Matter or pure indeterminacy prior to being illuminated, which is why it needed an anchor to depend on such that it would illuminate the material world and make certain of the otherwise uncertain laws of it. The planet optimised its rules to facilitate that, and what would come to animate and illuminate the surface was:
If it's going to be peeled off, you stitch it in a place so that cannot happen. Like that this texture of the world where you humans live is anchored to this planet by the Holy Lance. The Lance that shines to the Ends of the World. The pillar that guards the Apex Species.”
Rhongomyniad, in its true form, not as a shadow, otherwise manifests in the material world as a weapon. It is a Holy Lance that the material world anchors itself into, as it nurtures and sustains its reality. It is that which shines and illuminates to the ends of the material world; or rather, that shines and illuminates the entire material world.
You can compare the Inner Sea to a substance, as a bearer of accidents. Such that the world of becoming/change as the surface texture, is attached to a substance that underlies its continuity from beneath it (regarded as locally beyond, but metaphysically 'beneath').
The material manifestation of the tower is the weapon Rhongomyniad, which is considered a shadow cast upon surface texture by the tower at the end of the world. In that same vein, it will follow in of itself that the surface texture where the weapon manifests as a shadow, is by itself considered a shadow of the true reality. Which in this case, is the inner sea accordingly.
Spoiler: Quantitative and Liberation on Extensionality
The Inner Sea is a purely archetypal world, a world of pure spiritual phenomena and a mental plane.
They are merely unable to liberate themselves from their physical ties. They can't take on the form of a spirit as fairies can. As a result, they are unable to migrate to the Reverse Side of the World and have to remain on surface in this condition.
Despite being designated as a higher-dimensional plane, ascension to the Inner Sea involves no additive quantitative stacking. It is not unreachable for it has "x independent directions", it is unreachable from the material [surface] world of qualitative asymmetry:
It is not sufficient quantitative measure and extension that bestows one the natural rights to inhabit the archetypal world; it is precisely the quality of being immaterial and abstract that facilitates one's ascension to the Inner Sea. Precisely because it is completely beyond material composition, in fact, even stated to be completely removed from the laws of physics, as those are only relevant to the material [surface] world. The Inner Sea has been described as a conceptual domain, and it is in virtue of all of the aforementioned that particular parts of it, like Avalon, have the attribute of being an absolute defence against any physical interference and interaction:
■ Avalon: The Everdistant Utopia
Rank: EX
Type: Barrier Noble Phantasm
Defense target: 1 person
The power of the sheath of Excalibur. Expanding the sheath, it shuts out all physical interference by placing the owner in the land of the fairies.
The magecraft we know of is no more than the manipulation of formulas. It is only a trick to briefly fool the world....
“We only know how to fool the world. They had the power to rewrite it however they wish. That is how powerful Divine Spirits are. Of course.
As seen before, True Ether is the substance that forms both the Gods and Celestial Bodies themselves, a type of mana that is not only greater in quantity proportional to bare ether, but greater in quality proportional to Ether.
Even I was at danger of being crushed by it. To the people of the modern age, Magical Energy from the Age of the Gods was basically a poison. Unfortunately for me, the Magical Energy here was infinitely close to that of the Age of the Gods. Ever since I arrived here, my Mystic Eyes had been burning with pain more intense than I had ever felt.
The power of the dragon had created a space that preserved the texture of the Age of the Gods which was supposed to be lost. For this reason, all the creatures and plants that had evolved in Albion were completely different to their counterparts on the surface. It was the only place where Magical Energy could emit light.
Source: Lord El-Melloi II Case Files Volume 10: case. Grand Roll (Lower) - Chapter 1, Part 4
Essence
Divine Spirits are degraded vestiges of Gods:
Spoiler: On Divine Spirits being Degraded Vestiges of Gods
It is a personification of the Sun, a "degraded" version of Amaterasu Ōmikami (the Sun Goddess). When Caster Fox enters their nine-tail form, it does not turn into this exact appearance. Rather, this represents the original, ancient form of Caster Fox, which still exists in the present.
However, this needn't be understood as ontological degradation. What is meant when it is said that Gods became Divine Spirits, is insofar as they have lost their bodies to several cosmic extinction events that struck them. The attack from the White Titan, the embodiment of destruction and the destroyer of Civilisations. It destroyed the true bodies of the manifested aspects and concepts of the True Reality, with another notable one being Ragnarok.
Memory was not forgotten, but rather, it had been damaged. In that case, there is only one method. It is not to trace the past remembered by an individual, but to trace the phenomena recorded by the world itself. Fortunately, I had the necessary technique to do so. However, it doesn't work. An observer cannot observe themselves as the subject. One cannot shake hands with themselves; that's just how humans are.
And this extent of contemplation is found in the world's perception of the the Inner Sea as both itself and its own observer. The observed here, come to be perfections of nature, determinate aspects and concepts that fall under its actuality.
People had their languages confounded by God. This happened in an age when the existence of God was still acknowledged—a time called the Age of the Gods.
Back then, mystery wasn't something mysterious—it was treated as common sense. It was a world of swords and sorcery, so to speak.
The kinds of mysteries that are impossible now were not so difficult to perform in that era.
Heaven and earth once were one.
The land where mankind took root was a mirror image of the celestial sphere.
They formed a Trinity, although not the one that the term is normally interpreted as.
In the ancient times, all was connected as one, and was expressed as merged parts of the gods.
Regarding the former quote, that meant in the Age of Gods, the Heavens and Earth were phenomenologically unified, truths were perceived not as objects to fragment, but principles inherent to the subject itself. That is, everything (including humanity) was a part of the gods, the archetypal concepts of the True Reality. And it was the humans who believed in those subjects to be objects that encompass subjects or themselves. It is for this reason that true magic was common, and the impossible of today was possible.
Magecraft chases the past, to isolate mystery from knowledge, and science chases the knowledge as isolated from mystery: the future. Both of them pursue zero, but both divide zero in their pursuit, thereby distancing themselves from zero. True Magic is the unity of knowledge as mediation and immediacy, for it asserts what is true of which it engages with in mediation, on the basis that it is true; thereby being an immediacy.
Spoiler: On True Magic Just as the realm that is True Magic itself, the Inner Sea, is considered qualitatively beyond the material world, for it requires liberation from material (extensional) constraints. Also considered beyond space-time and a place where such phenomena are rendered unknowable as seen beforehand, as it is a realm prior to the laws of physics and completely removed from human laws. Further evidence suggests True Magic is inherently beyond dimensional/extensional constraints. That's why even phenomena such as Beauty has its own perfection, which can be exemplified in the world of becoming. In The Case Files of Lord El-Melloi II Vol. 3 - Twin Form Tower (Lower), such a thing manifested; the ultimate beauty. That which was True Magic as well, and the same rank as the unified language insofar as both of them reach into the depths of the Root:
It was said there was once a Sealing Designated magus who used the Unified Language (Master of Babel), words which allowed no mistake, to which the entire world - living or not - could not but obey. Her _____ was much the same, a purity that reached into the depths of the Root itself.
Because divinities are already determinate (aspectual) perfections, and properties/logoi of the Planet's actuality. And at the level of the Inner Sea, wherein the Planet purely contemplates itself unitarily as an object of its own contemplation.
Phantasmal species.
Within our works, this is a general term for those creatures that appear within legends and myths.
They are those existences that deviate from their original form by the impact of factors alien to their ecology; those existences borne of human ideation (想念); and those existences that ascend to a higher order as a consequence of longevity.
Incidentally, it is typically only those creatures that hold standing as Demonic Beasts (魔獣), translated sometimes as "Monstrous Beasts") or below that are used as Familiars (使い魔). The Ranks go in the order of Animal (野獣 lit. "wild beast") → Demonic Beast (魔獣?) → Phantasmal Beast (幻獣) → Holy Beast (聖獣).
Phantasmal and Holy Beasts of the Millennium Class fundamentally outmatch the strength of Mysteries on the order of Magecraft; the Mysteries inherent to said creatures are of a magnitude equivalent to that represented within True Magic.
That's why beings, in their formless essence, are beings of the Inner Sea, like phantasmals, which, ontologically speaking, are 'mysteries' in themselves, an equivalent of True Magic.
Fun and joy, fun and joy. Hear, glorious gods. Hear, my father, Keraunos incarnate! I commend you for dragging me by the hair, swinging me around, and slamming me on the earth. I’ll be alive as a companion of mankind while you disappear into the spiral of myth. No, I’ve been part of humanity since inception. It’s this concrete form of mine that was a dream and illusion all along. Because my perfect form, madness, originated within humanity.
Spoiler: On Dimensional and Transcendent Mysteries
The nature of divinities (Gods and Divine Spirits) as mysteries, logoi and miracles themselves, is crystallised through natural rights and jurisdiction over activities the surface texture by exercising activities proceeding from the Inner Sea:
Yes,” Faker said. “It’s honestly shocking. Magecraft in this era hasn’t just fallen behind by a couple of steps. It’s already an entire dimension away. The only reason why they even managed to bother us is because they don’t have the same goals. I don’t have any idea how many more tricks that Aozaki has hidden up her sleeve.”
Some of their spells are similar to the Ten-Count spells we use to deceive the world, but they are still fundamentally different. You could say that we are entire dimensions behind them. They were capable of changing the world with a single word by simply invoking the gods.”
Source: Lord El-Melloi II Case Files Volume 9: case. Grand Roll (Middle) - Chapter 3, Part 4
It is for this reason that ten count spells, those that invoke a fragment of the God's power, are considered an entire dimension beyond the magecraft of the surface texture. As it proceeds from the rules of a non-extensional archetypal plane of contemplation, power that is borrowed from non-extensional (immaterial) archetypal mysteries like Gods.
Authority: [Miracle]
Authority (権能) refers to a unique category of power distinct from Code Casts, Skills, or Noble Phantasms. It denotes a level of ability capable of altering phenomena, manipulating the flow of time, or even creating entire nations—a power that can shape the world itself.
Such abilities existed during the Age of Gods, approximately 6,000 years ago. However, with the advancement of human civilization after the Common Era, these powers were finally relinquished and retreated into the annals of the past.
Unlike regular skills, which operate on the premise of "this result can be achieved through these means," Authority operates on the principle of "it is done simply because there is a right to do so."
It is a natural power for Divine Spirit-class Servants to possess, but to wield such authority in this era requires a significant price—often the self-destruction of the wielder.
In Fate/Extra CCC, those who consume the Moon Cell attain this level of power
An Authority is something considered within the category of 'miracle' [True Magic]. A class of power categorically removed from Code Casts, Skills and Noble Phantasm. It is a degree of causal power that is capable of entirely altering phenomena, manipulating the flow of time and creating nations: reshaping the world itself. This scale of power ceased to exist within the surface texture/phenomenal world. And unlike regular skills, which operate on the premise of “by what manner can this result be achieved”, in other words, skills of magecraft. Supernaturals that depend on human wisdom and scientific means of analysis. An authority is a logical prior to such mediation and fragmentation; it purely operates on the premise that a divinity has “the right to reproduce this effect”.
The right to reproduce certain effects is rooted in the concept with which divinity represents; it is the manifestation of perfected causal power from the Inner Sea. Take the Goddess Ishtar, hailed in the account of Mesopotamian myth as an aggregate of Mother Nature's Beauty:
While her appearance was an aggregate of Mother Nature’s beauty, it was covered in high-brand fashion produced by modern society.
The Morning Star. The Evening Star. And the name Venus itself has roots leading back to the goddess Ishtar of Mesopotamia. As the star presiding over the concept of beauty, it would serve as a perfect replacement in this case, wouldn't it?"
She gains authority and supervenes over the concept of Beauty itself. And whatever phenomenological effects are associated with it, so as to reproduce them ontologically. This is why Beauty, as seen beforehand from True Magic, stopped time and space, rendering positions/coordinates meaningless. It is because those qualities are associated with a luminous phenomenological experience, presence that may render the appearance of any other null, so as to intensify the presence of the Beautiful.
And if that may be time and space, for some, time and space halts. Consequently:
Manifestation of Beauty: EX
The goddess of beauty advened in an Einzbern homunculus. Her charm power can affect magical and inanimate objects and even the laws of physics, but she can't use them against concepts related to the underworld due to a poor compatibility match-up.
She feels no need to use this against humans since they automatically worship her.
The cause of Haruri's devotion was the goddess' natural charm, not the charm from the Skill.
Her Beauty or charm has a causal power such that it can affect not only magical phenomena, but also inanimate objects and the laws of physics. Notions that have nothing to do with the mystical phenomenological experience of Beauty, because Ishtar is the perfection of Beauty and its universal pattern as instantiated in the minds of mankind. Is also capable of causally reproducing meticulous miracles associated with mystical experiences of the concept of Beauty. A rule, natural right of logoi and in other words, an activity of the logoi that follows from its existence. The existence of the divinity is the concept, and its activity proceeds from its mere essential existence. Their scale of psychic channel is such that the experience of reality is simultaneously unitary with the experience of oneself.
Originally, Faeries are considered nature's sense of touch, something that humans cannot perceive.
However, there are indeed some Faeries who were born wearing humans' imagination as shells.
Elementals (true fae: A-Reis) like Fairies are greater than the perfections of Logoi or Divinities. They are immediate determinations of the world's subjective experience; that's why they are defined as those who have come into a will of their own. That is, coming to exist through a will of their own and within a will of their own. Unlike Divinities, who have held supernatural abilities only proportional to their existence, as their existence is the very causal power. A-Reis, on the other hand, can reshape the world entirely as they see fit, not only in accordance with whatever logos they both embody and are.
“There are familiars and Phantasmal Species like them. However, the existence of true fairies is still a mystery that we have not yet fully grasped. In a certain sense, it’s a mystery more complex than the magecraft of the Age of the Gods. After all, it was a fairy known as the Lady of the Lake who gave King Arthur her sword, Excalibur.”
Source: Lord El Melloi Case Files Chapter 3 Part 3
It's for this reason that the true A-Reis are considered a mystery that completely eludes mankind. Not a mystery that is self-referential or self-explanatory like divine spirits, as universal and primitive patterns of reality as understood in human cognition. They are a mystery more complex than the magecraft of the Age of Gods.
What if this hole leads to the Fairy Realm, or somewhere close to it…? What if the place that it leads to is more dangerous than the Age of the Gods…?”
A mystery that cannot be reached through magecraft, something on par with True Magic itself. However, the causal power of the conventional A-Rei is delimited by the extent of the mentality they embody; fairies are partial fractals of the Planet's conscious experience.
Fairies can exercise True Magic, insofar as their subjective experience is experience of themselves, the subject as the object. For they are fractals of the Planet's consciousness, it is True Magic through self-determination; they redefine the rules even at the level of the Inner Sea simply because they are the world as they experience it. The conscious (living) perfections of the planet itself, undeterred by the communion of the Planet and Man. That is, the Planet in its unconscious state: Alaya.
Divinities can exercise True Magic insofar as they are the unconscious perfections of the world, the universal patterns of divine reason (logos). These archetypal logoi are self-predicative or self-articulated, as demonstrated, it is the exercise of magic without externalising reality. To manipulate reality, because reality is what you have a self-relation with. These are fantasies that mankind's Alaya, the Planet's unconscious activity, maintains through human imagination. The relationship between divinities and mankind is dynamic and reciprocal. Gods embody and are the perfect ideas of what the world of mankind comes to exemplify. The idea-of-phenomena-as-such-and-without-so-and-why, this is why they are, properly speaking, referred to as mysteries of nature. Not just 'concepts' or 'ideas' of nature, but those 'ideas' and 'concepts' as mysteries themselves.
Both bypass mediation, but do so to differing degrees.
As he was defined as the omnipotent deity on Earth within the Aztec world, his existence is, in a certain sense of the word, a mixture between Odin of the Norselands, Zeus of Greece, the Buddhist Demon King of the Sixth Heaven (Mara),and the Satan of Christianity (Lucifer)
These gods (devils) are all peerless existences in the physical world, but in the more spiritual world of destiny, they are not so unrivalled, and are similar in that they are all limited despite their omnipotence.
It is for this reason that even the highest of divinities in class are considered omnipotent in causal power only with respect to the material world. But in the astral/spiritual world, aka the Inner Sea, they are considered limited. Fairies can rewrite the rules because the rules are an extension of their subjective experience and therefore an extension of themselves. As a result, even the lower parts of True Reality are subordinate to these rules, the lowest parts of the Inner Sea here being the unconscious facets of the Soul of the Cosmos. Those considered to house self-predicative symbols of divine reason (logos), the throne of the gods. Gods rewrite the laws, not the True Reality, but of the material world; that's why they are anything but omnipotent in the Inner Sea.
They cannot rewrite the Inner Sea, because they are unconscious parts of it. Just symbols only, as awareness of their existence extends towards those with knowledge, as their existence, because their activity is their existence.
Gods are a consequence of the Inner Sea; Fairies are the Inner Sea.
True Ancestors are the highest grade of A-Reis; these beings are not merely just the Planet's sense of touch. But they are considered the embodiment of the Planet's consciousness and will be entirely manifested anthropomorphically.
The survivor of the royal family known as the "True Ancestors," the origin of vampires, as well as a higher spiritual entity known as the "Will of the Stars". Although she is a vampire, she is a kind of spirit inhabiting the earth, and can be easily understood as an anthropomorphic manifestation of nature. Her master, Monji, worships her as a god, but because of his misinterpretation, she is unable to function at her full potential. It is said that her inherent power as the will of the stars is extraordinary.
They are neither aspects of nature (divinities), fractals of nature's subjective experience (conventional A-Reis) nor a derivative projection of nature (humanity). But the manifestation of nature-itself, the very will of the Planet.
Hybrid Follower and Bound True Ancestor, Gato Monji & Berserker Gato Monji is a strange Master who worships the Berserker as a god. He holds a unique religious worldview that mixes various religions and is someone difficult to communicate with. The Berserker is originally a "True Ancestor," a spirit of the Earth, but due to Gato's misunderstanding that she is a god, her status has been degraded from a celestial being to a mere god, preventing her from fully unleashing her abilities. In combat, she uses a treasure that attacks with gravity, causing massive damage.
Because they have a perfected causal power that is not constrained to a particular mental characteristic (subjective experience) like A-Reis or a particular logoi they exemplify (divinities and heroic spirits). They are effectively "without limits"; the crystallisation of this 'omnipotence' is demonstrated in their highest mystery: Fantasy Manifestation. True Ancestors are not limited in what part of creation they can manipulate, with some perfection they embody. They can manipulate all of creation and completely reshape the entire world with their imagination:
It is a power possessed by spirits, which function as the sensory organs of the natural world. By directly linking their own will to the world itself, they transform the environment of the world into exactly what they imagine. Depending on the scale of the spirit, the level of manifestation differs.
As True Ancestor Royalty (1st Ascension) or the infant of nature (3rd Ascension), it's her 1200AD self sending an attack across space-time from the Millennium Castle. In addition, the field is morphed into a materialisation of the Castle.
They can attack across all time, from the past to the future, using an application of Fifth Magic. And use applications of Second Magic, like exchanging events and time travelling.
An ability of the True Ancestors, who serve as the sensory organs of the planet. It stores things that developed upon the planet’s surface, both conceptually and physically. In other words, it confiscates all creations that have arisen upon the planet’s surface — the textures
They also possess the ability to store things developed upon the Planet's surface (universe) conceptually and physically, in the same way the Original One can.
If compared to a divine spirit, it would be an extraordinary ability on the level of an Authority. However, since it is a function possessed by the planet itself, it is closer to a system than a skill.
It is much like an Authority of the Divine Spirit, that is, all of the surface texture is a projection of the Planet, and all of the surface texture belongs to the True Ancestor. They have the 'right' to confiscate store it as shadows within its essence (the Planet's Will), a class of ability not quite like authority but a function possessed by the entire Planet [Celestial Egg] itself: a system.
The gravitational sphere that appeared beneath Arcueid, who had become a body of light, possessed a scale large enough to store the textures of the entire Earth.
But because Arcueid is the Original One and Anima Mundi, hers is such that it can store all textures of the Planet up to the Inner Sea itself.
Thus, the Planet relates to itself to differing degrees, and different orders of existence and causality. It is through 1. Self-Embodiment (True Ancestors) Grade of noetic reality: The Planet's will itself, the closest attribute to the Soul of the Cosmos. 2. Self-Experience (Elementals) Grade of noetic reality: The Planet's subjective experience, a derivative of the Planet's will as it wills its own experience.
The last grade of consciousness of the Planet needs further exposition, as an enclosure of the explanation behind divinities and faith within Type Moon.
One and Many/Inner Sea and Surface Texture: Cyclical Procession and Linear Procession
Spoiler: Cyclical Procession and Linear Procession
Once beings become those of paradise, the Inner of the Cosmos. They cease to have a finite lifespan; they become part of a realm of Eternal Cycles.
A world that shares no ties with the decline and destruction on the face of the planet that continues to repeat itself like a loop.
The Inner Sea is a realm already of the perfect, ideal and complete; it cannot be affected by any and all cycles of death and destruction within the material world.
The Fairyland Avalon where King Arthur rests. The wielder will heal from any wound, and the aging process will cease. Unleashing the true name of Avalon will deploy a Bound Field that provides the greatest defence.
Therein, inhabitants of it who dwell within it in spite of being from the material world, cease to age from within it. The age of gods and likewise the primitive ages of spiritual affairs are eternal cycles, with the material world mankind being transient in comparison
While the Age of the Gods was like an eternal cycle, the modern age was transient. In a certain sense, the jewels that Luvia had expended and the mages that entered Spirit Tomb Albion to find remnants of the past were emblematic of the age that we lived in.
It is not an era whereby the Planet unfolded linearly outward; it is an era where the Planet begins to reflect itself onto itself. It is an era of perfection of the world, reflecting onto one another, to constitute the order within the Planet's self-contemplation.
A land at the end of the world where they would be eternally forbidden to set foot.
The beginning of worlds that exist at the end of the material world, yet are also causally before the material world. If the Original One is the beginning of all its creatures and the perfection/fulfilment/end to all its creatures, then it stands to reason the Inner Sea is where all perfections are realised. It is for this reason that some mages have opted to return mankind to the age of gods, to force a spiritual ascension into beings on par with Gods. Because Gods are entirely self-sufficient entities, eternal and perfect concepts, Gods are higher beings, and can bring about salvation. This is why Fairies on the other hand, had no need for the concept of a god, having enough power to not pursue salvation from what is greater than them.
Avalon will continue to exist until the end of humanity.
Nevertheless, Avalon will continue until the Unconsciousness of the World and the Consciousness of the World become tangled once more. That is to say, it will exist until the end of humanity, a world that humanity unconsciously aspires to reach.
Flow of Eternity: Causal infinitude of the Soul of the Cosmos
Spoiler: Causal infinitude and Soul of the Cosmos
The Inner Sea and its laws are sights that mankind forgot, not something they were entirely separate from. Through the Original Sin, mankind phenomenologically separated from direct communion with the Planet. Whereas the heavens became defined by the symmetry between knowledge and immediacy, that is, knowledge as truth (common sense as mystery). Knowledge-through-truth, that is, knowledge from seeing the world as it is: oneself. The material world became defined by truth-through-knowledge, that is, the truth being pursued by knowledge or justification (i.e scientific knowledge).
The causal order of the Inner Sea is self-relational, unbroken and present unitarily. That's why there's nothing of it to target, there's nothing of it to destroy, nor progress other than what already is. The causal power of Anima Mundi is its existence in the Inner Sea, in the outward and projected textures; it is infinite unfolding. The purpose of the unconscious side of the Planet's mind is to define the Eternity that is the Planet itself through rational and naturalistic means. Or through means that can be justified.
Omnipotent beings as nature, bearing within them the greatest authority of them all: magical energy without limits, strength without limit and capabilities that increase without limits. The world will continue to expand and indefinitely give rise to new things; rational beings will continue to define Eternity as the heavens continue to exemplify particular instances of Eternity. All things will continue in the everlasting journey, the Eternal knowing yet discovering itself, a journey that Roa likens to having no end but yet retaining a conclusion.
Human Order is not a path for humans alone—
It is the path of every intelligent being born upon this planet that has grown enough to look up toward the heavens. It is a journey without end, yet it does have a conclusion. When the next generation finally appears to tap you on the shoulder, your duty will be finished. I will be waiting for that glorious end within the planet’s Inner Sea.”
Note: Big Mr T, Telomera, did the goofy mistake of thinking that by "self-contemplative" and pure activity, I mean at a Tier 0 level.
Spoiler: What actually has to do with 1-A/High 1-A and not Tier 0, Mr T
For every body is moved by something not itself: self-movement is contrary to its nature, but by communication in soul it is moved from within, and because of soul it has life. When soul is present, the body is in some sense self-moved, but not when soul is absent : showing that body is naturally moved from without, while self-move- ment is of soul’s essence. Elements of Theology
For if it moves itself, its motive activity is directed upon itself, and mover and moved exist simultaneously as one thing. For either it moves with one part of itself and is moved in another ; or the whole moves and is moved; or the whole originates motion which occurs in a part, or vice versa, But if the mover be one part and the moved another, in itself the whole will not be self-moved, since it will be composed of parts which are not self-moved upon itself. Elements of Theology
As the spoiler tag and the note mention, this has to do with 1-A/High 1-A levels, not Tier 0. This is actually why the last memory of the world, existing in the deepest Inner Sea of them all, was not taught its own significance and nothing about things such as humans. It wasn't because she had no means to "know emotions"; herein, it simply means the level of consciousness that Arcueid possessed did not allow her to experience emotions as a reaction to a separable object or subject/agent, relating to my Arcueid post above. Emotions come after Manas-Vijnana, not even Alaya-Vijnana, the most foundational layer of human consciousness in Type Moon, possesses emotions.
“This force is an unconscious collective of humanity itself, including A, that wishes to preserve its own existence. To protect humanity, this entity manifests itself, without anyone knowing, and it erases A without anyone being able to observe it. The representative created by the swirling subconscious of humanity is part of the unconscious, and therefore acts without its own conscious will.Kara no Kyoukai - Volume 1 - Spiral Paradox
It is an unconscious collective of humanity itself, a karmic seed that desires to self-perpetuate civilisation; it is a representative of the subconscious of humanity swirling and acts without its own conscious will.
“... If you talk about it like this it seems like some guardian of humanity, but this thing has no human emotions. There are times when it blocks acts that would make everyone happier. The tricky thing is that in the end this nuisance is the representation of humanity itself.
It has no emotions of its own, so it does not even act for the good of mankind but for the preservation of its ego. As long as there's the most efficient way to perpetuate the existence of the ego for humanity.
The paradox is that everything moves towards unity as its realisation, and this is a regress back to the origin: Nothingness. But the nothingness is indivisible, and cannot be abstracted nor determinate, it is「」 and so reaching the Root, one comes into contact with their ideal realisation in magecraft. So for mankind, to come into contact with the Root is simply to see oneself through yourself (world). Because the world is always seeing itself through itself, and is naturally connected to the Root.
Although what grants True Magic is communion with the Akashic Records. Because that's where all knowledge is recorded in a complete activity, and when humans come into contact with the Root, they momentarily experience the truth of the entire world. And what remains after is a trace of the Swirl of the Root, and this is True Magic.
These are miracles that introduce changes to the system of the Celestial Body, the actualisation of human potential. It even occurs with Third Magic, whereby the mages, upon having lost Third Magic. Defined the soul through pseudo-spiritrons, the digitisation of the soul by sending the output destination of consciousness from the soul to the Mooncell. Modern magecraft was capable of defining the soul through the lens of pseudo-spiritrons, to replace the significance of Third Magic.
In the Servantverse, Third Magic is just a natural law, for example.
