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Chainsaw Man: The Mega CRT

ElajRuengies

ElajRuengies

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Part 0: Fear Scaling

This is just a minor addition to the page, but note that Fear Scaling only applies to a Devil's physicals, not special abilities. To be more specific, the physicals of a more fearsome Devil do not inherently scale above the special abilities of a less fearsome Devil. There are many cases where special abilities are dramatically stronger than their physicals, such as-
  • Bat's Sonic Attack
  • Typhoon's Storm
  • Angel's Weaponry
  • Blood Devil Power's Blood Manipulation
  • Weakened Falling's Gravitational Wave
  • Yoru's Gun Goddess
-so it's important to make the distinction that a more fearsome Devil's strength would only automatically scale above a less feared Devil's physicals.

Part 0.5: Primals and Doggos and Horsemen Oh My!

I'm going to be blunt. We have no idea where the Top Tiers / God Tiers precisely scale. The Aging - Pochita - Yoru scaling triangle has statements which don't work when looked at with some feats but work with others, and there simply isn't enough information to come to a conclusion. It's also unclear how relevant Part 1 Pochita's past feats are to when he fought Makima. As such, we're using [At least]s and [Possibly]s until we get more information.

Part 1: Revised Calcs

Besides the new stuff, almost all of Chainsaw Man's existing AP calcs are getting replaced, redone, or reevaluated.
The Bat Devil / Denji Durability calc will now use the Violent Fragmentation end rather than Pulverization, as Pulverization means no debris and debris can clearly be seen in the shot.

Part 1.5: Other Calcs

In addition, there's two other ReCalcs, a new Calc being added, and an old Calc being removed!
Everyone who was Class M is now Class 100, and Pochita's [possibly higher] Lifting Strength rating is getting removed.

Part 2: The AP Scaling

We've been discussing this one for months, it's like 99% sorted. The parts that aren't sorted are because Fujimoto likes confusing powerscalers. Please note that all "higher with piercing damage" ratings should be more specific on the pages themselves, i.e: higher with chainsaws, higher with swords, higher with arrows, etc. Also the upscaling, backscaling, and Gun Devil % Multipliers are going in the notes section.
Baseline - Power Crushes Cucumber: 6.72 kg of TNT
  • Initial Power (Duh)
  • Initial Denji (Fights with Power)
  • Pre-Assault Aki (Fought Denji)
  • Himeno (Should be at least comparable to Pre-Assault Aki as his mentor, incapacitated Kobeni)
  • Kobeni (Considered talented by Himeno)
  • Akane Sawatari (Former Devil Hunter)
  • Cosmo (Is a fiend)
  • Fiend Beam (Is a fiend)
  • Zombies under Akane (Are basically devils, got wrecked by Post-Training Power)
  • Dolls under Pre-Darkness Santa (At most, can be killed by Fox Devil's Paw, Beam, and even Cosmo)
Low Tiers - Fox Chomps Restaurant: 55.50 kg of TNT
Low Mid - Denji Gets Wrecked Backscaling: 250.0 kg of TNT
  • Initial Hybrid Denji (Duh)
  • Initial Hybrid Denji's Piercing Damage (Much higher, shredded Bat)
  • Himeno's Ghost Arm (Harmed Eternity w/ Gun Flesh, who can hurt Hybrid Denji)
  • Post-Weakening Hybrid Denji (At least, knocked around Cockroach, who killed Bat by falling on him)
  • Post-Weakening Hybrid Denji's Piercing Damage (Much higher, shredded Cockroach)
  • Princi / Spider Devil (At least, should be comparable to Cockroach via Fear Scaling, I Will Die On This Hill)
  • Masked Violence (Called "Pretty good" by Reze, while she was totally unfazed by Partially Transformed Beam, or Fox biting her)
  • Weakened Falling's Physicals (Absolute bare minimum, stopped Hybrid Denji with one finger, killed him with a kick, flicked him in half)
Mid Tiers - Bat Devil's Sonic Attack: 9.14 tons of TNT
High Mid - Hybrid Sandwich Dropkick: 81.53 tons of TNT
High Tiers - Upscaling: 100 tons of TNT
Top Tiers - Mt. Elbrus Eruption Percentage Math: 25.63 kilotons of TNT
Top/God Tiers Confusion Zone - More Mt. Elbrus Eruption Percentage Math: 128.18 kilotons
  • 100% Gun Devil (35.8893/28 * 100 = 128.18 kilotons)
  • Part 1 Pochita (Possibly, given past feats like devouring the four other ways life could end besides Death)
  • Makima's Finger Gun (Possibly, harmed Pochita)
  • Spear Man's Spears (Possibly, pierced straight through Pochita)
  • Part 2 Pochita (At least, via Fear Scaling)
  • Primal Fears (At least, via Fear Scaling)
  • Post-Chainsaw Man Church Yoru w/ Call to Arms (At least, put a hole in Part 2 Pochita)
  • Post-Chainsaw Man Church Pochita's Saws Durability (Deflected a shot from the Gun Gauntlet)
God Tiers - Gun Goddess's Bullets: 166.47 megatons of TNT
  • Post-Chainsaw Man Church Yoru w/ Gun Goddess (Duh)
  • Primal Fears (Possibly, given Yoru's statement)

Side Note:
Do y'all want the page to read 0.00672 tons, 0.0555 tons, and 0.807 tons of TNT, or 6.72 kg. 55.50 kg, and 807.62 kg of TNT?

Agree: @GunshyFever @Ped2018 @Saqphire (Iffy on revised Fear Scaling but the rest is good)
Disagree:
Neutral: @Zabazab (Spear Man's Spears >>> Lance of Longinus and Miri being 9x stronger than Reze is really dang goofy, which is totally fair tbh)
 
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Awesome I hate how Fujimoto handles scaling.

Usage: 1000 Years being weaker than Spear Man's spear by so much feels very wrong. While true that the weakening started making Pochita spit blood at that point, he still was black Chainsaw Man, rather than the scrawnier red Chainsaw Man in the cemetary. And considering there were parades already, with chainsaw themes and the like, it feels more likely that the news of Chainsaw Man killing the Gun started spreading before or earlier in the fight and he was constantly weakening throughout.

I don't really have a counter-argument to Miri being like 10x stronger than Reze, I just don't like it. It doesn't fit with how they're portrayed, in my opinion. I also don't like 8-B Public Safety Uniforms in general, even if they were mostly unharmed by Pochita's dropkick beyond his chainsaws.

Please note that all "higher with piercing damage" ratings should be more specific on the pages themselves, i.e: higher with chainsaws, higher with swords, higher with arrows, etc.
 
Zabazab said:
Usage: 1000 Years being weaker than Spear Man's spear by so much feels very wrong. While true that the weakening started making Pochita spit blood at that point, he still was black Chainsaw Man, rather than the scrawnier red Chainsaw Man in the cemetary. And considering there were parades already, with chainsaw themes and the like, it feels more likely that the news of Chainsaw Man killing the Gun started spreading before or earlier in the fight and he was constantly weakening throughout.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but even considering that, Spear Man pierced Pochita well before the Millennium Spear was used when Pochita really started getting screwed over.

The Millennium Spear might be scalable to the weapons used against 20% Gun, but we don't know how strong those are either, despite how they're listed as Town level on Angel's profile. And as much as I'd like to have something in the single-digits kilotons for the symmetry, I don’t think there's enough evidence to backscale the giant weapons Punishment was holding from 20% Gun's strength.
Zabazab said:
I don't really have a counter-argument to Miri being like 10x stronger than Reze, I just don't like it. It doesn't fit with how they're portrayed, in my opinion.
Click to expand...
Yeah, the fact that Reze is currently the second weakest Hybrid after friggin' Katana Man is seriously annoying. Sure Pochita eating WWII would've tanked the fear of bombs when carpet bombing was first done, but it being nerfed that much still feels off.
Zabazab said:
I also don't like 8-B Public Safety Uniforms in general, even if they were mostly unharmed by Pochita's dropkick beyond his chainsaws.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I getcha.
Zabazab said:
Please note that all "higher with piercing damage" ratings should be more specific on the pages themselves, i.e: higher with chainsaws, higher with swords, higher with arrows, etc.
Click to expand...
Good thing to note!
 
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The CRT itself looks good however I do have a few questions
ElajRuengies said:
Part 0: Fear Scaling

This is just a minor addition to the page, but note that Fear Scaling only applies to a Devil's physicals, not special abilities. To be more specific, the physicals of a more fearsome Devil do not inherently scale above the special abilities of a less fearsome Devil. There are many cases where special abilities are dramatically stronger than their physicals, such as-
  • Bat's Sonic Attack
  • Typhoon's Storm
  • Blood Devil Power's Blood Manipulation
  • Weakened Falling's Gravitational Wave
  • Yoru's Gun Goddess
-so it's important to make the distinction that a more fearsome Devil's strength would only automatically scale above a less feared Devil's physicals.
Click to expand...
I agree that a devil using abilities that vastly outscale them shouldn't scale to the ability (i.e. Bat doesn't scale to his sound waves), however I'm confused as to why a more feared Devil wouldn't scale to the lesser devil's ability? Makima's own description on how fear scaling works doesn't distinguish the physicals and the ability of a devil's power, merely that a Car Devil would be > a Coffee Devil, regardless of the ability or not. Yoru and Fami also elaborate that the fear scaling amps the ability aswell, so I believe when Fujimoto is talking about strength and power in relation to fear (and as we saw with Yoru, speed aswell), he's talking about overall strength, therefore if Pochita is more feared then Falling, Pochita would logically outscale everything that Falling does for example
ElajRuengies said:
Part 0.5: Primals and Doggos and Horsemen Oh My!

I'm going to be blunt. We have no idea where the Top Tiers / God Tiers precisely scale. The Aging - Pochita - Yoru scaling triangle has statements which don't work when looked at with some feats but work with others, and there simply isn't enough information to come to a conclusion. It's also unclear how relevant Part 1 Pochita's past feats are to when he fought Makima. As such, we're using [At least]s and [Possibly]s until we get more information.
Click to expand...
I believe the issue stems from not trying to scale the more feared devils to the lesser feared ones' abilities' AP/Speed
 
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Saqphire said:
The CRT itself looks good however I do have a few questions

I agree that a devil using abilities that vastly outscale them shouldn't scale to the ability (i.e. Bat doesn't scale to his sound waves), however I'm confused as to why a more feared Devil wouldn't scale to the lesser devil's ability? Makima's own description on how fear scaling works doesn't distinguish the physicals and the ability of a devil's power, merely that a Car Devil would be > a Coffee Devil, regardless of the ability or not. Yoru and Fami also elaborate that the fear scaling amps the ability aswell, so I believe when Fujimoto is talking about strength and power in relation to fear (and as we saw with Yoru, speed aswell), he's talking about overall strength, therefore if Pochita is more feared then Falling, Pochita would logically outscale everything that Falling does for example
Click to expand...
Because the strength of a Devil's abilities are not dependent on their physical strength at all. While both a physicals devil's physicals and abilities get stronger from fear, two different devils abilities will be wildly different in terms of how far they are above their respective devil's physical strength, if the ability does anything power-wise at all.

So if you took two devils who were equally feared, but the first's ability was absolutely cracked AP wise compared to the other (think Typhoon's storm being absurdly stronger than its body), and then the second one became more feared, the second still wouldn't necessarily be stronger than the first devil's ability.
Saqphire said:
I believe the issue stems from not trying to scale the more feared devils to the lesser feared ones' abilities' AP/Speed
Click to expand...
On the contrary, that would actually help, but they scale by feats anyway to statemsnts don't matter.
 
I feel like the spear man feat is definitely a off garud feat. We have seen something similar in part two. A bunch of random bug devils were made pochita bleed. They all had to catch him off garud which was apart of public safety's plan. The spear man seems more Weird when considering Makima's bang was only made pochita bleed and nothing on that level. If that one move was as strong as pochita you'd makima to use that more or just outright replace the 1000 year spear.
The fact denji literally broke the spear in half makes it look even worst. Unlike the other hybrids, the spear would be his ability so if the spear is weak so should the ability. This is under the assumption that it is an ability and two it isn't both the user and the spear together.
 
Famikiga said:
.
Click to expand...
Being "off garud" doesn't make his durability go down. Nothing to do with the actual strength of the spear either, piercing damage in Chainsaw Man is just absurdly effective, as shown with regular civilians being able to stab Fear-Boosted Hybrid Denji with spears.
 
ElajRuengies said:
Being "off garud" doesn't make his durability go down. Nothing to do with the actual strength of the spear either, piercing damage in Chainsaw Man is just absurdly effective, as shown with regular civilians being able to stab Fear-Boosted Hybrid Denji with spears.
Click to expand...
While I thinking about a counterargument to this(if there was even one) I came up with a solution. The solution would be makima amping the weapon hybrids. We know she should be able to amp people she controls as evident when nayuta made a random grandma, able to move super fast. While the spearman was the only damage pochita directly, the others still did some things that can be argued would need an amp.
 
Famikiga said:
While I thinking about a counterargument to this(if there was even one) I came up with a solution. The solution would be makima amping the weapon hybrids. We know she should be able to amp people she controls as evident when nayuta made a random grandma, able to move super fast. While the spearman was the only damage pochita directly, the others still did some things that can be argued would need an amp.
Click to expand...
Headcanon.
 
ElajRuengies said:
Because the strength of a Devil's abilities are not dependent on their physical strength at all. While both a physicals devil's physicals and abilities get stronger from fear, two different devils abilities will be wildly different in terms of how far they are above their respective devil's physical strength, if the ability does anything power-wise at all.
Click to expand...
Yeah I already agreed to a respective devil's physical strength not scaling to their abilities, that's not what I was asking though
ElajRuengies said:
So if you took two devils who were equally feared, but the first's ability was absolutely cracked AP wise compared to the other (think Typhoon's storm being absurdly stronger than its body), and then the second one became more feared, the second still wouldn't necessarily be stronger than the first devil's ability.
Click to expand...
Has the case where two devils who are = in fear ever been shown in the series even? I distinctly remember the power scaling using this system was very much linear (with the primals/Pochita being god tiers in fear and thus AP/Speed) and there was nothing in the verse that even implied that a lesser feared's devil's ability is capable of being > the physical stats of a more feared devil
 
Saqphire said:
Yeah I already agreed to a respective devil's physical strength not scaling to their abilities, that's not what I was asking though

Has the case where two devils who are = in fear ever been shown in the series even? I distinctly remember the power scaling using this system was very much linear (with the primals/Pochita being god tiers in fear and thus AP/Speed) and there was nothing in the verse that even implied that a lesser feared's devil's ability is capable of being > the physical stats of a more feared devil
Click to expand...
The two immediate examples I think of are-
  • Typhoon's City-Spanning Storm, despite its physicals being worse than Reze / The Bomb Hybrid
  • Blood Devil Power's Blood Manipulation shredding Makima, despite her then getting mauled by zombies and slashed by the Mantis Devil (which couldn't do shit against friggin' Yuko, that weakened Hybrid Denji could kill)
 
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GunshyFever said:
AP section lacks scans which is critical for a CRT.
Click to expand...
Alright, I got the dang scans- or most of them at least.
Also looking at the scans made me realize some stuff. Devil Beam got bumped to the Mid-Tiers while Masked Violence got bumped to Low-Mid for reasons listed.
Also also, Low-Mid Tiers now backscale to baseline 8-C for reasons noted here.
 
ElajRuengies said:
How do you feel about scaling the Millenium Spear / Lance of Longinus to 20% Gun?
Click to expand...
Zabazab said:
Usage: 1000 Years being weaker than Spear Man's spear by so much feels very wrong. While true that the weakening started making Pochita spit blood at that point, he still was black Chainsaw Man, rather than the scrawnier red Chainsaw Man in the cemetary. And considering there were parades already, with chainsaw themes and the like, it feels more likely that the news of Chainsaw Man killing the Gun started spreading before or earlier in the fight and he was constantly weakening throughout.
Click to expand...
I feel the same way as Zab.
 
GunshyFever said:
I feel the same way as Zab.
Click to expand...
Feeling is one thing, where do you think it should scale?

Again, Spear Man's Spears aren't Town level for damaging Pochita Clone, they're there for piercing through Awakened Pochita. So unless we're saying that the Pochita that came back from space was just as weakened as the Pochita that suddenly started hacking up blood next to Kobeni at the DDR Machine, Pochita getting weaker throughout the fight still wouldn't equate the Millennium Spear to Spear Man's Spears.
 
ElajRuengies said:
Feeling is one thing, where do you think it should scale?

Again, Spear Man's Spears aren't Town level for damaging Pochita Clone, they're there for piercing through Awakened Pochita. So unless we're saying that the Pochita that came back from space was just as weakened as the Pochita that suddenly started hacking up blood next to Kobeni at the DDR Machine, Pochita getting weaker throughout the fight still wouldn't equate the Millennium Spear to Spear Man's Spears.
Click to expand...
I'm not going to argue against logic with vibes, since Spear Man's spear still could be stronger than any of Angel's weapons. Why? We wouldn't know, yet. But I'm on board with the scaling nonetheless.
 
Alright so I finally bit the bullet (pun intended) and reread Ch. 77, 78, and 79, and after tearing my heart out and eating it, I saw that Denji did manage to pierce Aki's Public Safety Uniform. This causes a slight problem with the scaling, in that-
  • Katana Man's piercing damage can break Post-Training Denji's chainsaws
  • Denji's chainsaws can pierce PS Uniforms
  • Katana Man's piercing damage can't break PS Uniforms
There are two(2) solutions to this dilemma.
  1. Denji's chainsaws are just way, way sharper than Katana Man's swords
  2. International Assassins - Gun Devil Arc Hybrid Denji is stronger than Katana Man - Reze Arc Hybrid Denji.
The first one is self explanatory, and Post-Training Denji's piercing damage would just get bumped up. The second needs more evidence and rescaling.
  • Even though they no longer needed daily training, Denji (and Power) still got weekly training from Kishibe, meaning they still should've been improving over time.
  • In Ch. 53, Chainsaw Man's existence was now public knowledge thanks to his fight with Reze, meaning he likely got some amount of Fear Boost from it. Note the headline- "Terror of the Chainsaw Devil!"
  • Hybrid Denji managed to take a hit from a non-weakened Nighttime Santa and didn't die. He also somehow got the sneak on her when she tried to turn Quanxi into a doll.
  • We can't say for sure that 20% Gun is stronger than Street/Crime Violence, but it's pretty likely, so the Gun Fiend should be at least comparable to Unmasked Violence, and while it (he?) was definitely stronger than Denji, Denji still managed to kinda hold his own.
What this would mean is something like-
High Mid - Hybrid Sandwich Dropkick: 81.53 tons of TNT
High Tiers - Upscaling: 100 tons of TNT
  • Yoru's Piercing Damage (Diced Octopus, had a sword fight with Quanxi)
  • Gun Fiend Aki (Should be at least comparable to Unmasked Violence, regenerated Gun-Arm broke through PS Uniform sleeve(?))
  • Post-Reze Hybrid Denji's Piercing Damage (Stabbed through the Gun Fiend and his PS Uniform)
Click to expand...
This would also mean stuff like the foot-saw wall-run would get moved to another Powers and Abilities tab. Thoughts? (Note that this does not mean Kishibe is City Block level+, as Makima stated that Kishibe was the strongest agent in Division 4 in the Reze Arc, while Denji would get boosted afterward.)
 
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