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Dante Vs The Dawn Machine

Lightning_XXI

Lightning_XXI

6,590
3,421
Battle for 5th 2-C


- Both at 2-C or course, DMC2 Dante used

- Speed Equal

- They are in character


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The Dawn Machine

First introduced in The Fallen London game "Sunless Sea", The Dawn Machine is a machine produced by the British empire's military to attempt to imitate the power of the judgments for benevolent use. However, the machine developed Self-Awareness and became completely insane, and devoted to...
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Dante (Devil May Cry)

Dante is the protagonist of the majority of the Devil May Cry series. He, along with his twin brother Vergil, are the product of a romance between the Dark Knight Sparda and a human woman named Eva. After losing his mother to demons as a child, Dante grows up to become a demon-hunting mercenary...
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Dante cannot kill him because of High-Godly Regeneration, although The Dawn Machine can't do anything against Dante to kill or incap him tho.

Pretty sure Dante just demon crush him into oblivion or seal him away eventually.

Seems like a stomp in Dante's favor for me tbh.


​

 
Yea it's impossible for dante to kill him but he can incap him as from the justification for his ap he seems to be 4 universes into 2-C(tho anyone can correct me if I'm wrong)which means he have huge ap advantage over him and so dante will immediately DT,fear hax him and gg
 
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Dante's Mid Godly regen works fast, I don't know if Dawn Machine can incap him easy

Edit: Nvm actually, Base Dante's regen is Mid Godly only overtime, DT however works fast
 
Also this doesn't really matter either way because he want be able to take 5th given Touhou (which has nep2) Nil(who is nep2) and Old man are all in 2-C are are currently gunning for the spot
 
deonment said:
Also this doesn't really matter either way because he want be able to take 5th given Touhou (which has nep2) Nil(who is nep2) and Old man are all in 2-C are are currently gunning for the spot
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most of those guys cant touch dante either, not sure why bringing them here is valid
 
Sevil Natas said:
most of those guys cant touch dante either, not sure why bringing them here is valid
Click to expand...
because it means that the current person in 5th, The dawn machine who is getting fought right now is going to be replaced and as such he wont be able to compete for it since he cant touch nep2 and old man beats him, but ignoring that if dante's resistance is just baseline then he gets law haxed and gg'd
 
Noticed this thread, couldn't help but comment on it, although I should note I am very much lacking in knowledge of the higher-tiered stuff of FL. I still need to go through a loooot of the story to reach the point where I can fairly assess the power of Judgements and similar beings, and I suspect the FL pages are very outdated.

In any case... If Dante's Law Manipulation resistance is baseline, this doesn't look good for him. The Dawn Machine's Law Manipulation is very much above baseline. It has passive around baseline Law Manipulation, but by giving commands/paying specific attention/doing specific things, it can easily overcome baseline resistance.

How many universes does Dante scale to? The number the Dawn Machine scales to in its profile is the bare minimum, it can be easily argued to scale to a greater amount.

How does Dante's sealing and the aforemnetioned powers here work? What is the degree of his fear hax? Because the Dawn Machine has resistance to all of that. (I mean, it depends on the method of Sealing. I don't recall Judgements having sealing resistance, at least not explicitly, but there are very few scenarios I can imagine someone sealing them and they just not getting out of it)
 
EliminatorVenom said:
Noticed this thread, couldn't help but comment on it, although I should note I am very much lacking in knowledge of the higher-tiered stuff of FL. I still need to go through a loooot of the story to reach the point where I can fairly assess the power of Judgements and similar beings, and I suspect the FL pages are very outdated.

In any case... If Dante's Law Manipulation resistance is baseline, this doesn't look good for him. The Dawn Machine's Law Manipulation is very much above baseline. It has passive around baseline Law Manipulation, but by giving commands/paying specific attention/doing specific things, it can easily overcome baseline resistance.

How many universes does Dante scale to? The number the Dawn Machine scales to in its profile is the bare minimum, it can be easily argued to scale to a greater amount.

How does Dante's sealing and the aforemnetioned powers here work? What is the degree of his fear hax? Because the Dawn Machine has resistance to all of that. (I mean, it depends on the method of Sealing. I don't recall Judgements having sealing resistance, at least not explicitly, but there are very few scenarios I can imagine someone sealing them and they just not getting out of it)
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Dante scales only to 2 universes for now and he have 4D fear hax tho I don't see any resistance to fear manipulation in dawn profile and

from what I can understand about the way you described his law manipulation that its baseline when it's passive but when he start giving orders from his thoughts it's above baseline right?
 
Deadguy said:
Dante scales only to 2 universes for now and he have 4D fear hax tho I don't see any resistance to fear manipulation in dawn profile and
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FL profiles are reaaally outdated, I'll tell ya that. Besides, I thought Resistance to Fear sorta came as a bonus with Mind/Empathic resistance. Good to know it needs to be specifically listed, but if it is needed, I can grab plenty of scans of things that are several orders of scaling below the Dawn Machine that resist quite severe Fear Manipulation.
Deadguy said:
from what I can understand about the way you described his law manipulation that its baseline when it's passive but when he start giving orders from his thoughts it's above baseline right?
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Eyup. A Judgement's light, the Dawn Machine's included, is passive and it decides the laws of reality and What Is to everything it touches. What concepts do exist, which doesn't, how they work are all decided by how a Judgement decides things to be.

The Dawn Machine doesn't tend to use its passive form offensively, just as a form of mind manipulation/control and matter manipulation, but as with any Judgement, it can give commands in the Correspondence (Basically, a language that often takes physical shape and alters reality) or just will it, and it can enforce its laws with much more efficiency, although only on specific targets.

Some good examples:
  • In the Aestival questline of Sunless Sea, one of the big conundrums the Zee-Captain faces is the sunlight of, well, the Sun reaching Aestival, a small island of the Neath, and as people of the Neath are too different of the laws that the Sun imposes in reality, they burn to death. One of the ways to shield Aestival against the Sun's light is to get an Element of Dawn, a minuscule fragment of the Dawn Machine, blessed by Correspondence sigils from either the Machine itself or from its followers, and it manages to shield the entire island of the Sun's effects, despite the light still shining on everything there.
  • There are plenty (Although esoteric and hard to acquire) methods and things that can shield someone from a Judgement's light. But almost any method that do so still is just as vulnerable to a Judgement, or even a being created by a Judgement, still way inferior to it but possessing a small figment of its authority, simply shouting the Correspondence to them and managing to hit them. You can see it in Sunless Sea, by having some stuff that protects from sunlight, but it does nothing against the Dawn's Machine light in the far west; all the time you interact with a Judgement in Sunless Skies; heck, I think even the beginning of Sunless Skies, with the Logoi and the Captain's mentor's death show that. However, to be fair, up to a certain point, many of the things I described here could be gameplay and story segregation.
And there are a few more examples I could dig up, I think. What I'll say is that, in general the Judgement's light is much less powerful than a direct command/manifestation of its will.
 
EliminatorVenom said:
How does Dante's sealing and the aforemnetioned powers here work? What is the degree of his fear hax? Because the Dawn Machine has resistance to all of that. (I mean, it depends on the method of Sealing. I don't recall Judgements having sealing resistance, at least not explicitly, but there are very few scenarios I can imagine someone sealing them and they just not getting out of it)
Click to expand...
Sealing is Ebony and Ivory Based.

Its basic version is a unconventional power null + BFR.
Its strongest version also seals away target into Demon World.

Dante at this point uses the 2nd type.

His fear hax comes from haxxing V wh0 already have 4D emphatic and mind resistance.
Also note it can affect inanimate objects, so its got Versitility as well.
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
Sealing is Ebony and Ivory Based.

Its basic version is a unconventional power null + BFR.
Its strongest version also seals away target into Demon World.

Dante at this point uses the 2nd type.

His fear hax comes from haxxing V wh0 already have 4D emphatic and mind resistance.
Also note it can affect inanimate objects, so its got Versitility as well.
Click to expand...
How the power null works? I mean, I've played only DMC3 so I really don't know much about Devil May Cry, but Ebony and Ivory there were shooting and just causing normal damage. And the sealing thing, are there any specific mechanisms for it? Because if it just teleports the Machine to another universe, it isn't helpful at all.

I'll already say that, personally, 4D mind/soulhax is something I severely disagree with. It really shouldn't be a thing.

In any case, assuming hax can be quantified like that, it still shouldn't affect the Dawn Machine. Entities such as the Machine aren't affected by similar powers either, with the Fear Manipulation of certain beings (Such as Mr. Eaten), that extend into the past, present and future, beyond the moment it was born, being very much below their concern. In fact, almost any Judgement can effectively have empathic and mental powers of such a level, but they typically simply do not work on each other.

I also decided to read the profiles, the demon physiology page and all that, and, unless Dante has a better feat for Law Resistance, he wouldn't really resist the Machine reordering reality. His resistance has the following justification: Upscales from Demons came from the Demon World, a place that has different laws that exist upon reality compared to the Human World and when they decide to step into the Human World, they also don't need to follow the laws that exist upon that reality.

The problem is that, that kind of Resistance to Law Manipulation would only be useful against someone who could only manipulate the natural laws of the world, or that could only manipulate existing ones. In Fallen London, we have examples of beings like the Demons of DMC, who live in places that follow different laws from those of the world, and that do not need to abide by said laws when coming into them. Parabolans are like that, as are any inhabitants of the Neath. The latter are even shown to still operate under different laws of reality when compared to other humans when they go into a world without Judgements/Judgements that are on the very least tolerant of them.

Whenever any of these beings actually come into the reach of a Judgement that doesn't want them to Be, they are erased from existance. Judgements enforce the laws of the world: If they are confronted with something that do not work or obey said laws, said thing is simply erased to conform to the new standard.

So, unless Dante has other showings I am not aware of, I don't see his Law Resistance being particularly useful against the Dawn Machine.
 
EliminatorVenom said:
How the power null works? I mean, I've played only DMC3 so I really don't know much about Devil May Cry, but Ebony and Ivory there were shooting and just causing normal damage. And the sealing thing, are there any specific mechanisms for it? Because if it just teleports the Machine to another universe, it isn't helpful at all.
Click to expand...
Improved BFR and Improved Power Nullification via Improved Sealing (Was capable of sealing Mundus away[29], this ability also sends the target to the Demon World and removes their powers. The seal is capable of prohibiting demons on certain level of power from passing through there using their consciousness, since despite lesser demons being capable of sending their consciousness to the Human World to possess things[30], this is something that the high-ranking demons can't do, since they have some problems, one of those being[31] because of their powers[32] being unable to pass through the gaps, requiring large portals to successfully pass through[33], and Dante's sealing powers is stated to be above Sparda himself[34])

Basically it creates a 2 fold seal.
EliminatorVenom said:
I'll already say that, personally, 4D mind/soulhax is something I severely disagree with. It really shouldn't be a thing.
Click to expand...
Well we'll just have to agree to disagree.


EliminatorVenom said:
I also decided to read the profiles, the demon physiology page and all that, and, unless Dante has a better feat for Law Resistance, he wouldn't really resist the Machine reordering reality. His resistance has the following justification: Upscales from Demons came from the Demon World, a place that has different laws that exist upon reality compared to the Human World and when they decide to step into the Human World, they also don't need to follow the laws that exist upon that reality.
Click to expand...
It needs a reword. Demon World has a tendency to corrupt and convert Human World laws into something similar to Demon World.
Demon World itself having wierd laws of Physics etc area to area.

So I dunno if that helps, I am not expert on Law Hax.
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
Improved BFR and Improved Power Nullification via Improved Sealing (Was capable of sealing Mundus away[29], this ability also sends the target to the Demon World and removes their powers. The seal is capable of prohibiting demons on certain level of power from passing through there using their consciousness, since despite lesser demons being capable of sending their consciousness to the Human World to possess things[30], this is something that the high-ranking demons can't do, since they have some problems, one of those being[31] because of their powers[32] being unable to pass through the gaps, requiring large portals to successfully pass through[33], and Dante's sealing powers is stated to be above Sparda himself[34])

Basically it creates a 2 fold seal.
Click to expand...
Oooh, interesting! I didn't know that.

I feel like the power null wouldn't happen, as Judgements have been known to be capable of power nulling beings and sealing them (The Vagabond in the Sunless Skies questline, the entire conundrum with Wells, the story of the Halved), but even when they wanted to do something to other Judgements, that was never possible/an option. Heck, when beings cease to exist in Fallen London, they just... cease to exist, and even those that can somehow "stay alive" after such an ordeal are rendered powerless, while Judgements typically keep influecing reality, quite greatly in fact.
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
Well we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Click to expand...
Eyup, I'll concede on that for the good of the debate.
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
It needs a reword. Demon World has a tendency to corrupt and convert Human World laws into something similar to Demon World.
Demon World itself having wierd laws of Physics etc area to area.

So I dunno if that helps, I am not expert on Law Hax.
Click to expand...
No problemo, Law hax is a very weird kind of hax.

That still doesn't help much, as both Parabola and the Neath do the same to those that go there. People who go the the Neath gradually start working by different laws of reality, although subtly enough and close enough to the "base" laws of the world that you might consider them essentially equal in a Law hax viewpoint. However, Parabola is utterly alien. Everything that goes there works by Parabola's laws, and no matter if you arrived there by dreaming or physically going there, you start working by Parabola's laws, not by the world's laws anymore. For example, one can change history by how mutable it is in Parabola, cats routinely severely warp reality while in Parabola simply because that is how Parabola works, and it makes people able to change their features by using a certain substance, something that cannot be done in the normal world. Under the light of a Judgement, however, anything Parabolan simply ceases to be.
 
EliminatorVenom said:
I feel like the power null wouldn't happen, as Judgements have been known to be capable of power nulling beings and sealing them (The Vagabond in the Sunless Skies questline, the entire conundrum with Wells, the story of the Halved), but even when they wanted to do something to other Judgements, that was never possible/an option. Heck, when beings cease to exist in Fallen London, they just... cease to exist, and even those that can somehow "stay alive" after such an ordeal are rendered powerless, while Judgements typically keep influecing reality, quite greatly in fact.
Click to expand...
Well, if sealing and power null is resisted....BFR to Demon World would still work.
EliminatorVenom said:
No problemo, Law hax is a very weird kind of hax.

That still doesn't help much, as both Parabola and the Neath do the same to those that go there. People who go the the Neath gradually start working by different laws of reality, although subtly enough and close enough to the "base" laws of the world that you might consider them essentially equal in a Law hax viewpoint. However, Parabola is utterly alien. Everything that goes there works by Parabola's laws, and no matter if you arrived there by dreaming or physically going there, you start working by Parabola's laws, not by the world's laws anymore. For example, one can change history by how mutable it is in Parabola, cats routinely severely warp reality while in Parabola simply because that is how Parabola works, and it makes people able to change their features by using a certain substance, something that cannot be done in the normal world. Under the light of a Judgement, however, anything Parabolan simply ceases to be.
Click to expand...
Yeah that is bit above Dante's paygrade.

Hmm, even if it has detrimental effects on Dante, well would it still stop Dante completely from fighting?
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
Well, if sealing and power null is resisted....BFR to Demon World would still work.
Click to expand...
Here's the thing, I don't think there's anything stopping them from just... Coming back. Judgements have been known to drastically screw up space-time whenever they want, and the only places they cannot reach are those that are close related to the imaginary or to nothingness, because such places contradict a Judgement's nature in a very essential way.

I'll see if I can find a specific scan of them getting out of another dimension/universe. I'll say that even a dead Judgement thrown down a Well, which is a pocket dimension that, to be fair, is directly and physically connected to the "normal" world, can still influence reality outside of it as a living, abstract phenomena.
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
Yeah that is bit above Dante's paygrade.

Hmm, even if it has detrimental effects on Dante, well would it still stop Dante completely from fighting?
Click to expand...
Yeaaah... I mean, it depends on how the Dawn Machine uses it, because there are many possible commands and the Correspondence usually needs to "hit" the target (Getting close enough), but once it does, it can simply reorder how Dante essentially works.

At best, he may resist the worst effects with his own resistances, but he'd still be impaired by being imposed laws contrary to his usual. At worst, he might instantly die.
 
Another Dawn Machine match? Oh well, Dante is OP anyway

Though looking at the discussions above, I'm mostly leaning towards Dawn Machine but I'm not voting yet
 
Damn totally forgot about this.


EliminatorVenom said:
Here's the thing, I don't think there's anything stopping them from just... Coming back. Judgements have been known to drastically screw up space-time whenever they want, and the only places they cannot reach are those that are close related to the imaginary or to nothingness, because such places contradict a Judgement's nature in a very essential way.

I'll see if I can find a specific scan of them getting out of another dimension/universe. I'll say that even a dead Judgement thrown down a Well, which is a pocket dimension that, to be fair, is directly and physically connected to the "normal" world, can still influence reality outside of it as a living, abstract phenomena.
Click to expand...
Well the main advantage Dante has by sending Machine to Demon World is the Demon World Passives.
While Dawn Machine resists everything impressive about DW, it doesn't quite have resistance to Passive CM1 Demon World has.


EliminatorVenom said:
Yeaaah... I mean, it depends on how the Dawn Machine uses it, because there are many possible commands and the Correspondence usually needs to "hit" the target (Getting close enough), but once it does, it can simply reorder how Dante essentially works.

At best, he may resist the worst effects with his own resistances, but he'd still be impaired by being imposed laws contrary to his usual. At worst, he might instantly die.
Click to expand...
Well with this law hax in mind I see a range of outcomes.....

Dante dies, a draw or perhaps he dies but manages to BFR dawn machine to DW killing it as well.
 
I'll answer this properly later, I'm a bit busy atm, but man, it's hard to debate with the profiles as they are right now. Once I do get a CRT going, the matches will probably need to be cancelled or redone.

Peppersalt43 said:
Another Dawn Machine match? Oh well, Dante is OP anyway

Though looking at the discussions above, I'm mostly leaning towards Dawn Machine but I'm not voting yet
Click to expand...
While I do think the Dawn Machine is really cool, it's funny to see how people focus on it when doing FL matches. I mean, in-universe, it is considered a failed Judgement, and even the Clockwork Sun (Which's its upgraded form) is kind of... Weak, feat-wise, compared to a Judgement like the Saphir'd King.
 
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