Epic (Cool Dudes Only) Dungeons and Dragons Discussion Thread

[Nighting4l33yes]

It's called being cultured.

I don't think that's what I'd call it

 

[Nonynho]

Jaheira

her alone and videos i saw on the Durge storyline convinced me to play the other games lol

 

[Lou_change]

I found an offical book claiming Red dragons can hold 1.3 million pounds it doesn't clarify the age category but it was written in 2025 so probably not wyrms or greatwyrms.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I found an offical book claiming Red dragons can hold 1.3 million pounds it doesn't clarify the age category but it was written in 2025 so probably not wyrms or greatwyrms.

Greatwyrms were introduced to 5e in 2021 with the publishing of Fizban's Treasury of Dragons. 5.5e is a different set of rules but not a strictly different edition, afaik, and it's not like greatwyrms would just... stop existing, anyways. That said, for the sake of argument, I'm gonna compare to the 3.5e stats.

I'll use an adult red dragon, which had a Strength score of 33, and was a huge quadruped.

A 29 Strength score in 3.5e gave a max carry capacity of 1,400 lbs. Strength scores above 29 operated on every +10 bonus to Strength giving a 4x multiplier to this value. The unassumptive low-end, then, would be to use this 1,400 lbs value, whereas we could interpret this linearly and say that every strength score above 29 gives a 30% increase to carry capacity (about 120% for us, or 3,080 lbs). The latter is more spiritually in-line with what is going on here, since no capacity increase doesn't make sense, so we'll go with that as our base value.

As a huge quadruped, it has this score multiplied by 6, resulting in a carrying capacity of an adult red dragon being 18,480 lbs.

Compared to a greatwyrm: 45 Strength, Colossal Quadruped.

29 = 1,400
39 = 1,400 * 4 = 5,600
45 = 5,600 + 180% = 15,680 lbs

The colossal quadruped multiplier is 24, so.

15,680 * 24 = 376,320 lbs

Much closer, at least.

What was the book/is there a scan? It would be a relevant feat, I think, though I forget the LS of the stone giant one.

 

[Lou_change]

This is the book The line is under the silhouette at the top

I misinterpreted the line it turned out Red, Gold, Silver, and Amethyst Dragons are all simply 1.3 million pounds compared every other chromatic, metallic, gem dragon being 160,000 pounds. A size chart later in the book suggests that the values are for adult dragons.

Still it is probably useful to have a value for their weights

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Oh, like. A book-book, not a sourcebook. That would make it more complicated, but.

Stone giants do already have a calculated feat at a little over 5 million pounds. Dragons upscale, so this is just sort of a supporting feat. Still, interesting.

 

[Lou_change]

I mean we know creatures can at least temporarily go beyond their carrying capacity given strength rolls. For example the rules for a rolling stone trap a 5-foot-radius orb of solid stone a creature can try to slow down the stone with a DC 20 Strength (Athletics) check. If the check is successful, the distance the stone moves on its turn is reduced by 15 feet.

A low effort calculation ended in the range of class five which I believe is higher than a medium creature with 10 strength should have.

 

[Lou_change]

I tried doing a more proper calc. Also the current beholder stat block has new rules for Telekinetic Ray. Strength Saving Throw: DC 16 (the target succeeds automatically if it is Gargantuan). Failure: The beholder moves the target up to 30 feet in any direction. The target has the Restrained condition until the start of the beholder’s next turn or until the beholder has the Incapacitated condition. The beholder can also exert fine control on objects with this ray, such as manipulating a tool or opening a door or container.

there is no weight limit.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

I would not really use the offical stats if we used those dnd characters would not even get past tier 7.

 

[Lou_change]

So while looking into maybe making a page explaining the powers of gods then I saw the Abominations trait: they all share a tiny spark of deific energy, which grants the qualties described in Abomination trait. Those traits are superior to that which is innate to all gods and they don't have the traits of gods with a divine rank of 0 on their stat blocks but the book says that if you use those rules that is what they would be.

 

[Lou_change]

Okay so looking into gods first edition
All gods typically had Command, Comprehend language (also letting them speak and write it), Detect Alignment (perfect), Gate (only beings from their own mythos), Geas, Quest (without a save), Teleport, True Sight.

A save of 2 meaning that they only have to roll above a 1 to beat a save and they can't be reduced

Also they can alter stats, grant wishes or their opposites, and teleporting others if the dm feels like it.

Legends & Lore gives them access to any spell at will.

Faiths & Avatars goes further saying Forgotten realms gods can invent new spells at will.

3e they can't cast every spell at will anymore.

What is the standard?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Okay so looking into gods first edition
All gods typically had Command, Comprehend language (also letting them speak and write it), Detect Alignment (perfect), Gate (only beings from their own mythos), Geas, Quest (without a save), Teleport, True Sight.

A save of 2 meaning that they only have to roll above a 1 to beat a save and they can't be reduced

Also they can alter stats, grant wishes or their opposites, and teleporting others if the dm feels like it.

Legends & Lore gives them access to any spell at will.

Faiths & Avatars goes further saying Forgotten realms gods can invent new spells at will.

3e they can't cast every spell at will anymore.

What is the standard?

We've used the "they can cast all spells" basis. We had some discussion about it in antiquity, I remember an element of that decision was based on the somewhat-consistent trend of 3e saying "look, our stats are provided but they are just one option", like when they released multiple versions of the Demon Lord statblocks, or the different Elder Brains, or the Tarrasque. The actual statistics in 3e are treated as a malleable thing whereas 2e considers it more concrete.

 

[Lou_change]

Okay I assume quasi deities don't count since they are a rank below Demigods which is as low as the books prior to 3e mentioned

Also Die Venca Die isn't the explanation either.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Okay I assume quasi deities don't count since they are a rank below Demigods which is as low as the books prior to 3e mentioned

Also Die Venca Die isn't the explanation either.

Yeah quasi-deities aren't assumed to have the same deity-level powers.

 

[Schattenbach]

Thanks for the input.

I most certainly don't know if those guys are 1-A at all; it all depends on how their actual interpretation and implementation looks like (and I'm not exactly sure how to properly contextualize the relevant Lovecraft quotes due to my lack of familiarity with the Mythos). They might be 1-A, High 1-B, Low 1-C or 2-A or anything in between, who knows.

The interesting points I seem to remember (would need to reread things to be more sure) is that they're supposed to be equivalent to any other DnD3.5 Pantheon, that their Cosmology explicitly lacks an Overdeity (it caps out at Divine Rank 20 Greater Deity, which is roughly on par with Taiia, the stand-in monotheistic deity of Deities and Demigods, I guess), that Aza,Yog und Shub form some overarching cosmic balance (Death, Time and Life, I guess), that Aza (and most relevant Outer Gods & Co.?) chill "beyond normal space-time at the center of all existence".

And that Aza is described as co-creator of the Multiverse and that Aza's essence is supposedly part of all physical matter in the multiverse, with the blob being explicitly just a stand-in. Yog got his usual stick of being "coterminous" to all space-time and such, and his manifested form got some whacky abilities ranging from Time Travel/Forced Temporal Transfer to any point in time or so (doesn*t really work on stronger deities, which there are many as Yog, Shub and Nya are only Intermediate), Immunity breaking stunning Silver Ray and some weird super-sizing. Shub and Nya are just impossible to kill even by vastly more powerful beings due to possessing Rejuvenation without nullifying condition, some transformation and/or avatar creation options which I don't remember right now ... and all those Mythos deities have the usual Mythos fluff about never really dying.

The stat blocks are a mess but still somewhat better than some of those found in Deities and Demigods.

After looking through things a bit, 1-A (and High 1-B) seems somewhat iffy to me. Those Outer Gods are more likely 2-A (same rating as current Greater Deities) or Low 1-C (same rating as vanilla Mystara Immortals) or so, which is also sufficient to replicate pretty much nearly all Cthulhu Mythos stories, anyway. As they should still scale to other Intermediate and Greater Deities, though, that placement does indeed make sense.

We've used the "they can cast all spells" basis. We had some discussion about it in antiquity, I remember an element of that decision was based on the somewhat-consistent trend of 3e saying "look, our stats are provided but they are just one option", like when they released multiple versions of the Demon Lord statblocks, or the different Elder Brains, or the Tarrasque. The actual statistics in 3e are treated as a malleable thing whereas 2e considers it more concrete.

Deities and demigods even spells out that the deity statblocks are malleable, and with reality warping (or even just things like Psychic Reformation) allowing for generous retooling of various statistics, I don't see much reason as to why they shouldn't be. The only major characteristics deities actually have are Divine Rank, Portfolio, which are further supplemented by Domains (which further characterize the nature of the deity, i.e. same portfolio and different domains express different types of deities) and Salient Divine Abilities.

As for the "they can cast all spells" issue, using DnD3.5 as reference, deities can at least cast all their domain spells at-will. They can spontaneously cast all spells they can grant (provided they have the right spellcasting class levels).

Any deity of relevance and power usually (though not always) also has Alter Reality as Salient Divine Ability, which allows for broad reality warping and things like replicate any spell at 9th level or lower ... or to make magical or supernatural effects permanent, though the biggest joker is actually the ability to temporarily replicate the effect of Divine Creation, which is just broken nonsense.

The Shapechange spell or various other options that might or might not give access for spellcasting are one thing, the other are Salient Divine Abilities like Shapechange or True Shapechange (the later is roughly as broken as Divine Creation).

Arcane Mastery grants low-requirement access to all sorcerer/wizard spells and allows to invent new sorcerer/wizard spells (likely including Epic Spells) at-will (and obviously without cost). Spontaneous Wizard Spells allows to use unspend spell slots to cast wizard spells (including the spells the deity can already invent at-will), among other things. Divine Spellcasting primarily just provides a huge boost in the number of available spell slots, but whatever.

Divine Fire Mastery allows, among some neat other things, to also replicate the effect of any fire spell (likely also epic spells, etc.) at-will.

There are various things that allows to change spells known instantly, i.e. Psychic Reformation and the like, or, if one wants something expensive, one vanilla usage of Wish in epic settings without psionic material is to switch out spells known, among other things.

 

[Lou_change]

Am currently compiling sources regarding general god powers here. Due to a lack of storage at the moment I am just listing page numbers and trying to summarize stuff I understand. If anyone knows of relevant books not I have not mentioned on the page dm me.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

There's always going to be tidbits and misc bits from here and there, of course. That said, I would at least make sure to see the Book of Exalted Deeds (3.xe), the Epic Level Handbook (3.xe), Complete Divine (3.xe), Faiths and Pantheons (3.xe), Tome of Magic (3.xe), Planes of Law (2e) and Planes of Chaos (2e), Planescape Campaign Setting (2e), Divine Power (4e), and at last, Planescape: Adventures in the Multiverse (5e).

I don't expect all of these to explicitly lay down stats and abilities of the gods, but they at least have a higher-than-average chance of saying something important for the gods. I will not recommend individual Dragon/Dungeon magazines to you because there's too many. I will, however, tap @Qawsedf234 on the shoulder to see if he has any recommendations.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

After looking through things a bit, 1-A (and High 1-B) seems somewhat iffy to me. Those Outer Gods are more likely 2-A (same rating as current Greater Deities) or Low 1-C (same rating as vanilla Mystara Immortals) or so, which is also sufficient to replicate pretty much nearly all Cthulhu Mythos stories, anyway. As they should still scale to other Intermediate and Greater Deities, though, that placement does indeed make sense.


Deities and demigods even spells out that the deity statblocks are malleable, and with reality warping (or even just things like Psychic Reformation) allowing for generous retooling of various statistics, I don't see much reason as to why they shouldn't be. The only major characteristics deities actually have are Divine Rank, Portfolio, which are further supplemented by Domains (which further characterize the nature of the deity, i.e. same portfolio and different domains express different types of deities) and Salient Divine Abilities.

As for the "they can cast all spells" issue, using DnD3.5 as reference, deities can at least cast all their domain spells at-will. They can spontaneously cast all spells they can grant (provided they have the right spellcasting class levels).

Any deity of relevance and power usually (though not always) also has Alter Reality as Salient Divine Ability, which allows for broad reality warping and things like replicate any spell at 9th level or lower ... or to make magical or supernatural effects permanent, though the biggest joker is actually the ability to temporarily replicate the effect of Divine Creation, which is just broken nonsense.

The Shapechange spell or various other options that might or might not give access for spellcasting are one thing, the other are Salient Divine Abilities like Shapechange or True Shapechange (the later is roughly as broken as Divine Creation).

Arcane Mastery grants low-requirement access to all sorcerer/wizard spells and allows to invent new sorcerer/wizard spells (likely including Epic Spells) at-will (and obviously without cost). Spontaneous Wizard Spells allows to use unspend spell slots to cast wizard spells (including the spells the deity can already invent at-will), among other things. Divine Spellcasting primarily just provides a huge boost in the number of available spell slots, but whatever.

Divine Fire Mastery allows, among some neat other things, to also replicate the effect of any fire spell (likely also epic spells, etc.) at-will.

There are various things that allows to change spells known instantly, i.e. Psychic Reformation and the like, or, if one wants something expensive, one vanilla usage of Wish in epic settings without psionic material is to switch out spells known, among other things.

I just straight up didn't see this.

Aza and the Cthulhu Mythos guys would be 1-A by dint of being Far Realm creatures, iirc. It is a common thing for Far Realm entities to have a presence in the regular multiverse, though, so their lesser showings may simply be a case of this.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Aza and the Cthulhu Mythos guys would be 1-A by dint of being Far Realm creatures, iirc

Yes and no. 1e versions are Tier 2, they wouldn't be 1-A until 5e were they became Far Realm Warlock Patrons.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yes and no. 1e versions are Tier 2, they wouldn't be 1-A until 5e were they became Far Realm Warlock Patrons.

Are they not the same characters

 

[Qawsedf234]

Are they not the same characters

It's hard to argue. 1e they existed entirely in the material realm, with Azatoth dreaming up the multiverse within the center of it.

4e/5e they've been moved to be more firmly as Far Realm creatures that can breach the normal multiverse.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

pretty sure dnd cthullu is just 2A from the new ravenloft book with him trapped by the mists of raveloft and a threat to the multiverse.

 

[Schattenbach]

It's hard to argue. 1e they existed entirely in the material realm, with Azatoth dreaming up the multiverse within the center of it.

4e/5e they've been moved to be more firmly as Far Realm creatures that can breach the normal multiverse.

One could actually argue that the Call of Cthulhu D20 stat descriptions are the official outline of the Mythos Cosmology and the outer gods/etc. in DnD3.5, which is further supported by the ported Sanity (orignating from the same system) rules officially referencing the Cthulhu Mythos (see here ... or here) and the fact that it isn't contraindicated through any major other factor (at least as far s I know).

The cosmology is explicitly without overdeity (Azathoth is only Divine Rank 20, the others are only Intermediate deities at best ... with Shub-Niggurath and Yog-Sothoth being Divine Rank 13 or something and Nyarlathotep Divine Rank 15?), but with Azathoth and Shub-Niggurath operating on the same scale as cosmic principles. So the supreme Archetype (or the Archtypical versions) of the deities might exist somewhere in the Far Realm as hypothetical overpower, but who knows and I don't remember anything that actually suggests that as the deities use direct Cthulhu Mythos/Lovecraft quotations in their entries and other outlines about the structure of the Mythos. One is supposed to replicate the Cthulhu Mythos stories (or at least most of them) with the deities as is, with the deities just being a pantheon of particulalry mavolent deities. Which in and itself isn't strange, as even Elder Evils (some of which are actual far Realm beings of power) are said to approach demigods in power (or even surpass them), though that is obviously within the context of their manifested (or projected) form in reality (who knows how much power their projected state actually loses). I remember some fluff about Boccob (as Greater Deity) journeying to places even Elder Evils dread, but as I don't remember the source, I might be missremembering things.

One could actually argue that deities might be Low 1-C (or possess 5D range) as Draeden do exist in 3.5e (like the one that supposedly forms the 92th layer of the Abyss) and - if I remember that right - regularly deals with Lolth, which suggests both some peer level relationship and suggests that planes/the greater multiverse is potentially also baseline 5D, but who knows. Does that actually make sense all things considered, though?

As for the 5.5e Darklord Cthulhu in Ravenloft ... As I don't own that new Ravenloft book, I wouldn't know much about that, but I do remember some forum discussion that it is supposedly only a projection (or maybe temporal or metaphysical echo) of Cthulhu (with him being demigod in 3.5e, thus incapable of actually of easily creating avatars), which supposedly explains why the domain is the fishing village instead of the undersea city, with the darklord punishment being both to stay in that fishing village instead of the neat undersea city and that now (at least for that darklord version) the stars can never be right.

Edit: fixed some name typos

 

[Lou_change]

Honestly the fact they actual say Cthulhu is weaken is a lot better then most stat blocks given for beings considered god tier besides Auril.

Blob of Annihilation being implied to kill gods at CR 23

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Silly question but are successful saving throws considered index-able for resistances? If not... shouldn't they be?

 

[Lou_change]

Silly question but are successful saving throws considered index-able for resistances? If not... shouldn't they be?

Almost all but dex are however the standards we apply are a bit more complicated.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Almost all but dex are however the standards we apply are a bit more complicated.

Are there written rules for it?

 

[Lou_change]

I think we base it off some old take 10 rule the game had.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

We assume an average roll of 10 on a save, yeah. Thus a commoner has no resistances, and a +0 bonus to a save does not denote an indexable resistance, whereas a +1 denotes a layer of resistance. As the number increases, so do the layers, since a DC 12 effect that would land on a saving throw of 11, would not land on a saving throw of 12, and so on. That's about as nuanced as it is.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

We assume an average roll of 10 on a save, yeah. Thus a commoner has no resistances, and a +0 bonus to a save does not denote an indexable resistance, whereas a +1 denotes a layer of resistance. As the number increases, so do the layers, since a DC 12 effect that would land on a saving throw of 11, would not land on a saving throw of 12, and so on. That's about as nuanced as it is.

Okay so, say you were to index Shart. Would her resistances include any roll she can succeed at in the game then?

 

[Lou_change]

She gets what 10 + her modifier for a save is what I believe.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

She gets what 10 + her modifier for a save is what I believe.

What type of resistance would that include though since any spell can be resisted? All of them? Likewise, would her base stats be assumed? Or her late game ones with the ability score feat taken?

Also, as far as I know, to add a verse you make a blog or something, create profiles for a character and then make a thread. Where would rules such as this one be established?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

She gets what 10 + her modifier for a save is what I believe.

This is correct.

What type of resistance would that include though since any spell can be resisted? All of them? Likewise, would her base stats be assumed? Or her late game ones with the ability score feat taken?

Also, as far as I know, to add a verse you make a blog or something, create profiles for a character and then make a thread. Where would rules such as this one be established?

Yeah. Though, again, some of them wouldn't really be a resistance. A Dex save isn't a Resistance, and a Strength save is also generally not one. It isn't a resistance to dodge something or overpower it.

BG3 isn't a verse. It's a small part of an existing verse. You can just make the profiles, though posting WIPs here to get shit smoothed out is obviously preferable, to avoid as much CRT work in post as possible.

As for stats. The profile would necessarily be in keys. Shadowheart (and all of the PCs) exist in multiple forms across the game. I always envisioned it being: Start of Game | Early Game (up to end of Act 1) | Mid Game (up to end of Act 2) | End Game

...So Start of Game would be stats as shown literally at the beginning, before any leveling. After that it's a bit hazy, since unlike the main game (that is, Dungeons and Dragons), it isn't set in stone. BG3 is a bit of a harrowing project because of this, at least for the main cast. I guess in terms of resistances we'd assume the highest they would realistically, possibly have at that point. This would include shit like equipment and so on.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

This is correct.


Yeah. Though, again, some of them wouldn't really be a resistance. A Dex save isn't a Resistance, and a Strength save is also generally not one. It isn't a resistance to dodge something or overpower it.

BG3 isn't a verse. It's a small part of an existing verse. You can just make the profiles, though posting WIPs here to get shit smoothed out is obviously preferable, to avoid as much CRT work in post as possible.

As for stats. The profile would necessarily be in keys. Shadowheart (and all of the PCs) exist in multiple forms across the game. I always envisioned it being: Start of Game | Early Game (up to end of Act 1) | Mid Game (up to end of Act 2) | End Game

...So Start of Game would be stats as shown literally at the beginning, before any leveling. After that it's a bit hazy, since unlike the main game (that is, Dungeons and Dragons), it isn't set in stone. BG3 is a bit of a harrowing project because of this, at least for the main cast. I guess in terms of resistances we'd assume the highest they would realistically, possibly have at that point. This would include shit like equipment and so on.

Oh for sure. I am mostly asking because I eventually want to index Pathfinder: WOTR. Since the systems are nearly identical, I was wondering how the process goes and if methods used here can be applied there as well.

But thanks that definitely helped. Were I to make a blog, could I still send it here for some early notes? I will be explaining the system differences of course

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Also, is it generally assumed that these characters can use ANY spell of their class they could use in the TTPG? Since the game just doesn't have them for technical reasons.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Oh for sure. I am mostly asking because I eventually want to index Pathfinder: WOTR. Since the systems are nearly identical, I was wondering how the process goes and if methods used here can be applied there as well.

But thanks that definitely helped. Were I to make a blog, could I still send it here for some early notes? I will be explaining the system differences of course

Yeah. Lot of D&D people have at least tangential knowledge of Pathfinder. Someone here would definitely be able to offer insight since, like you say, it's pretty identical in terms of systems. Ask any questions you might have, in the process, also.

Also, is it generally assumed that these characters can use ANY spell of their class they could use in the TTPG? Since the game just doesn't have them for technical reasons.

Not from the TTRPG, but those within the game, yeah (within reason). We wouldn't give Shadowheart wizard spells, even though she technically could multiclass into a wizard, because she has an implicit character path built in. This logic applies doubly to Shadowheart, since as a cleric, she can technically just prepare everything. But, even for Gale, we would list every wizard spell as something he would be able to learn.

If Shadowheart ever got an incarnation in the game proper (might already exist? I vaguely remember that but my memory is foggy and it might not have been an official source), we would extend to her spells in the broader game of D&D 5e.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Yeah. Lot of D&D people have at least tangential knowledge of Pathfinder. Someone here would definitely be able to offer insight since, like you say, it's pretty identical in terms of systems. Ask any questions you might have, in the process, also.

Not from the TTRPG, but those within the game, yeah (within reason). We wouldn't give Shadowheart wizard spells, even though she technically could multiclass into a wizard, because she has an implicit character path built in. This logic applies doubly to Shadowheart, since as a cleric, she can technically just prepare everything. But, even for Gale, we would list every wizard spell as something he would be able to learn.

If Shadowheart ever got an incarnation in the game proper (might already exist? I vaguely remember that but my memory is foggy and it might not have been an official source), we would extend to her spells in the broader game of D&D 5e.

So another question would be this: Okay, we got resistance layers with saving throws. What about offensive abilities now? In PF every spell increases its DC by adding the caster's class level (1, 2, 3 etc) + ability score modifier. Following the saving throws logic, would each level be a layer?

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

I also think Karlach and another character did get a card or something and are considered in-universe characters!

Paizo (PF creators) acknowledge the game's characters as well and even released a class for the ttrpg that was unique to the game for a character.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

So another question would be this: Okay, we got resistance layers with saving throws. What about offensive abilities now? In PF every spell increases its DC by adding the caster's class level (1, 2, 3 etc) + ability score modifier. Following the saving throws logic, would each level be a layer?

Correct. DC 11 is base level, every higher level is another layer of resistance.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Correct. DC 11 is base level, every higher level is another layer of resistance.

Wow. So say, Ember, a companion with the Witch class, using Slumber Hex that has 10 base DC. For every level, since the Hex gets a +1 DC. At level 20, would that mean the Hex gets 20 layers? 20 layers of Mind Manip? And accordingly, since it can realistically bypass a 29 Saving Throw, she could get those layers of Resistance Negation?

I was not aware DnD-esque characters had that much potential. It makes sense though.