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Champion of Midgard: The Thor Odinson MegaCRT

Tomfer said:
One thing I still don't like is the horrible P&A tab Thor still has. A lot still is scanless, no refs, or a mix of both. I know this isn't the main goal of this thread, but still lmao.
Click to expand...
Ya know, you've got a point there. I'll work on that next, since the tiering is pretty much finished
 
NaturalDestroyer said:
P&A should be quite a bit better now
Click to expand...
Incomplete All-Father Thor doesn't need extra tabbers, you can format it like Herald of Thunder.

RKT says "All powers of his base and Odinforce forms including" but he has no Odinforce form.

In Immortal All Father's Attack Potency the link is broken.
 
MrKerf said:
Incomplete All-Father Thor doesn't need extra tabbers, you can format it like Herald of Thunder.

RKT says "All powers of his base and Odinforce forms including" but he has no Odinforce form.

In Immortal All Father's Attack Potency the link is broken.
Click to expand...
Good observations. Also, two of the references seem to be broken. 🙏
 
NaturalDestroyer said:
I wouldn't call them outliers since there's a provided in-story mechanism for them.
Click to expand...
Just because someone varies doesn't mean that the concept of outliers doesn't apply to them. It is clearly not narratively implied ever for Thor to be stronger than Multiversal Abstracts. When evaluating outliers, you have to take into account narrative consistency. Thor is objectively weaker than Galactus, Celestials, Universal Phoenix, etc. That is directly stated and shown multiple times. The feats you have for Outerverse level are either really just Skyfather level (the Yggdrasil ones, the Stranger, Phoenix, etc.), or are really weak for such an enormous upgrade.
 
Just a note that the First Firmament feat is valid regarding explicitly preventing the destruction of the Marvel Multiverse, regardless if we consider it to make sense or not. 🙏
 
ObberGobb said:
Just because someone varies doesn't mean that the concept of outliers doesn't apply to them. It is clearly not narratively implied ever for Thor to be stronger than Multiversal Abstracts. When evaluating outliers, you have to take into account narrative consistency. Thor is objectively weaker than Galactus, Celestials, Universal Phoenix, etc. That is directly stated and shown multiple times. The feats you have for Outerverse level are either really just Skyfather level (the Yggdrasil ones, the Stranger, Phoenix, etc.), or are really weak for such an enormous upgrade.
Click to expand...
I disagree for previously stated reasons (especially on the Demogorge feat, since he's specifically adapted to killing and absorbing gods so if anything it's more impressive) but this thread has become so bloated that I might just concede in order to move the revisions along. I've been working on this project for a year and frankly I just want it finished so I can move on to other revisions.
 
NaturalDestroyer said:
I disagree for previously stated reasons (especially on the Demogorge feat, since he's specifically adapted to killing and absorbing gods so if anything it's more impressive) but this thread has become so bloated that I might just concede in order to move the revisions along. I've been working on this project for a year and frankly I just want it finished so I can move on to other revisions.
Click to expand...
Personally I feel that the 1-A stuff is the only problem with the proposal right now. I agree with everything else
 
Antvasima said:
Just a note that the First Firmament feat is valid regarding explicitly preventing the destruction of the Marvel Multiverse, regardless if we consider it to make sense or not. 🙏
Click to expand...
My problem with it is that 1) It seems like it would be an outlier for Universal Abstract level characters to scale to a Multiversal Abstract, and 2) There are other feats of destroying the multiverse, like Amora and Galactus, so it doesn't seem like Marvel treats destroying the multiverse as a Multiversal Abstract level feat
 
ObberGobb said:
Personally I feel that the 1-A stuff is the only problem with the proposal right now. I agree with everything else
Click to expand...
I'll just go ahead and change it to match, then. I do think that Thor has too many high ends on that level to ignore, but I'd rather get the proposal finished and I do understand your logic. You've been very clear about explaining your arguments and they're not unreasonable.
 
Okay, I'm pretty satisfied with the changes and I think this works as a compromise. I removed the Chaos King feat and changed the others to Low 1-A.

Ant, do you think the draft profile is ready for approval/voting?
 
Ok a few minor nitpicks I want to hear people's thoughts on:
1. Should Thor's Phoenix feat scale to his base form when he performed it in his All-Father form?

2. Is the wording of "Belief, Willpower, and Location" necessary? To me it seems to just clutter the profile, so I was wondering if anyone else thought that those words should just be in the justification. Liike just "Varies from High 3-A to Low 1-A". IDK, I just think it might look cleaner.

3. I think we do need a new render for Unworthy Thor.

Everything else is great though, so count me as a "yes.'
 
ObberGobb said:
Ok two minor nitpicks I want to hear people's thoughts on before I vote "yes":
1. Should Thor's Phoenix feat scale to his base form when he performed it in his All-Father form?
Click to expand...
If that’s the case it should probably be moved methinks
ObberGobb said:
2. Is the wording of "Belief, Willpower, and Location" necessary? To me it seems to just clutter the profile, so I was wondering if anyone else thought that those words should just be in the justification. Liike just "Varies from High 3-A to Low 1-A". IDK, I just think it might look cleaner.
Click to expand...
I don’t have a problem with it
 
ObberGobb said:
Ok a few minor nitpicks I want to hear people's thoughts on:
1. Should Thor's Phoenix feat scale to his base form when he performed it in his All-Father form?

2. Is the wording of "Belief, Willpower, and Location" necessary? To me it seems to just clutter the profile, so I was wondering if anyone else thought that those words should just be in the justification. Liike just "Varies from High 3-A to Low 1-A". IDK, I just think it might look cleaner.

3. I think we do need a new render for Unworthy Thor.

Everything else is great though, so count me as a "yes.'
Click to expand...
1. I do want everybody's thoughts on the Phoenix thing. He performed the feat in his All-Father form but it doesn't depend on the Allpower in any way. Theoretically, it's available to him in any one of his forms (except for RKT because that happened before he accepted his Phoenix heritage), but I don't love the idea of putting it on every single one of his keys. I figured that since his stronger keys are typically base + other stuff, that would be the most elegant way to do it without excess clutter.

2. Thinking about this and I agree. The variable explanation in parentheses should honestly be fine.

3. I do like the one on the draft currently but I'm open to suggestions. Do you have any images you'd like to bring up as options?

Thanks for the feedback, Obber! Good thoughts.

Edit: Somehow the fixed Unworthy render got reverted back to the old one, which was a design that never actually appeared in the comics. I'll fix that and put the image we decided on.
 
Not so fast buckaroo, that Elder God / Rune scaling there is lookin mighty SUS. Everything else is good though.

What we do know about where The Elder Gods are in the cosmic hierarchy and their feats:

High End Elder God Feats:
  • Hercules was able to contend with (but was weaker and would ultimately lose) Chaos King by using the power of Gaea’s essence. The true essence of Elder Gods is likely in this level. - 1A+
  • Utgard-Loki creates Utgard which exists at the level of The Beyond last The Far Shore. TWASIS, other Elder Gods that came to Utgard, were found in The Beyond after all Creation was destroyed by The Beyonders. The Utgard gods are no different from any other Elder Gods and are likely weaker than Set and Chthon who did not see any need to band together “for safety in numbers” feeling secure in their own power, this feat as such would scale to all Elder Gods. - 1A+ [Note: Creating Utgard past The Far Shore in The Beyond could be interpreted as a Range Feat and not AP]
Regular Elder God Showings (from the main Marvel discussion thread):
  • Chthon, besides being an Elder God, is also a Great Old One (Many Angled One), who are comparable to abstract entities. - 1A
  • Oshtur being a third of the Vishanti, who are comparable to the Great Old One Slorioth, fought Shuma-Gorath ages ago, can defeat Dormammu, and have the same position in the cosmic hierarchy as the Phoenix Force and In-Betweener. - 1A
  • Wyrm, who exists in every reality across all time, was a threat to all existence. - 1A
  • Utgard Gods are to the Aesir what the Aesir are to mortals, and have possible R>F over them via their relationship being described through Plato's allegory of the cave. - 1A
  • Tiwaz is the Utgard equivalent of Odin as Utgard-Thor (Toranos) and Utgard-Loki are to their Asgardian counterparts, and Hela fears him, and the Odin-Power is useless against him. - at least Low-1A possibly 1A
  • Toranos considered Odinforce Thor a puny micro-god whose lightning means nothing to him. - at least Low-1A possibly 1A
  • Gaea endured baby Thor crying in her womb producing storms that could destroy the world, and these storms from newborn Thor were strong enough to shake the world tree and all its realms (though Gaea scaling directly to this is iffy). She was also implied to be capable of stopping Slorioth. - at least Low-1A possibly 1A
  • Set is a multidimensional entity entwined across myriad alternate earths, and his body is consequently shown to be longer than many alternate earths. His What-If variant (keep in mind, Set is indicated to exist across all realities simultaneously). In an alternate reality, Earth-9151, while in the process of manifesting on earth and amassing power, overpowered Phoenix Force Rachel (and consumed The Universal Phoenix Force) killed Thor, Doctor Strnage and other heroes, and fought Enigma Force Captain Universe for eternity. He also scales above the serpent crowns, which are the most awesome objects of power in the multiverse. - 1A
Additionally:
  • Chthon (while possessing Quicksilver) could have destroyed 616-Eternity as a result of his chaos per the admission of Eternity himself in Overspaxe. - 1A [possibly 1A+ if this is referring to Multi-Eternity but this does not seem to be the case as the multiverse is not mentioned in the story and the events are only shown play out on Earth.]
  • Chthon (while possessing Quicksilver) banished the entirety of Asgard to the void with it being beyond Thor’s and the rest of Asgard’s ability to do anything to escape their predicament or for Heimdall’s abilities to even see anything with his all seeing powers or for Loki’s magic to deduce anything regarding their situation. - 1A
  • Chthon’s personal slave race the N’garai range in power from being absolutely irrelevant up to overpowering Doctor strange to even being the “elder gods of Limbo” themselves - varies from irrelevant fodder to Low-1A
  • Chthon is said to be the greatest of The Old Ones as well as the greatest of The Elder Gods. - 1A
  • Just being near Chthon’s true form within his dimension terrifies Doctor Strange to near hopelessness and is only saved by some higher power. Chthon in this story is treated as a totally incompressible darkness without any actual true form. - 1A
  • Chthon is likely even more powerful in his realm than he was in the ancient era when he walked the earth with his fellow Elder Gods. Having become so vast with magical energies that his true self can’t leave his realm and instead relies on possession, manifestations, or vessels as no magical portal can convey his full essence. - 1A
  • Chthon is to all other demons what the universe is to humanity. - 1A
  • Chthon is older than the entirety of the celestial race and states that he could destroy them. - 1A [this likely refers to the universal celestials and not the Multiversal Celestials. The statement about him being older than The Celestials is obviously not accurate as The Celestials were created by The First Firmament itself long before Chthon came into existence.] - 1A+ if the statement is decided to refer to The True form Celestials.
  • Chthon is the god and master of the discipline of Chaos Magic.
  • Elder Gods are typically treated as above powerful Doctor strange foes like Dormammu, who once used the Cauldron of Chthon to plunge the world into Darkness. - at least Low-1A possibly 1A.
  • Chthon has a spell that can turn a being into a new Demogorge while being bound to Chthon’s will in order to destroy all other gods, elder gods, mystical entities, and forces etc. - at least 1A
The Relation Between The Elder Gods and The Abstracts. While Elder Gods and Abstracts have not interacted on many occasions, the few times they that they have have not been in their favor (with the exception of Chthon nearly killing Earth-616 Eternity as a result of his chaos and Set killing the universal Phoenix of Earth-9151.):
  • A manifestation of The Powers That Be views Chthon as a mere practitioner of its power. (The Goddess Witchcraft is similarly beneath said manifestation of TPTB as well but she is not an Elder God so that is not relevant.)
  • The Griever at The End of All Things could easily kill and erase Darkhold Scarlet Witch requiring the Never Queen to remake her.
  • The Living Tribunal is above the notice and concerns of Darkhold Scarlet Witch and Agatha Harkness.
  • Magic was created in the Fifth Cosmos from the left over energies of the Fourth Cosmos. The Elder Gods are all magical entities with all of their powers being magic based in origin.
  • Magic and science were not even concepts in the Third Cosmos and before.
  • Toranos could be banished to the far shore by Thor at the edge of Multi-Eternity. While he would return, it did take time for this to happen and could not cross that distance at once. If he were truly a Multi-Abstract tiered being, it would have taken essentially no time at all to return being able to cross such distances in an instant.
Additional Stuff:
  • The profile proposed states that Zeus was a greater danger than a “Full powered Nyx” however, Zeus is a regular god and is not nearly powerful enough to challenge her. The context needs to be examined. In the past, a weakened in-universe incarnation of Nyx easily killed Zeus. Additionally, They are in some random dimension called “The Land Without Suns” this is not The Cold Dark Room. As for Zeus surviving an enraged attack from Nyx, that is not how it happens, Nyx simply tells Thor that she is not why he and Hercules are in her realm and casually (not going all out or enraged) calls down two moons on Thor, Hercules, and Zeus. Thor and Hercules run away from this attack which if anything is an anti-feat (that can be ignored as obviously both characters are above moon level) while Zeus tanks it. As for GOS Loki, he / she was not manipulating events by herself and was working alongside Athena. Back with Zeus and Nyx, Zeus refers to Nyx as "a being of great power and great darkness". Nyx states "I have the power to free him from this dimension ... but first I must free myself." When Zeus starts fighting Thor and is being humiliated by Thor's ability to control his own lightning, Nyx asks him almost jokingly if he wants help. All of this is consistent with what has already been established that the universal / in universe forms of Nyx are superior to Zeus. This is still an impressive feat with Thor showing that even though he is younger, he is the superior god of thunder and lightning than Zeus.
  • The feat about Mistress Death and Eternity being part of Utgard Loki’s trials is likely referring to a universal depiction, not the Multi-Death and Multi-Eternity versions. This is consistent with Elder Gods being portrayed as comparable to Universal Abstracts as shown above.
  • God of Stories Loki’s abilities are not AP and are hax based Plot Manipulation. Defeating his hax just means that said character has better hax / hax resistance than GOS Loki so the Elder Gods would just have layered hax / hax resistance above GOS Loki. Whenever GOS Loki has appeared he has never even demonstrated any impressive reality warping or ability to manipulate large cosmological structures. Instead he has hax abilities that allow him to manipulate the plot in the way that the runes he uses see fit. When he meets TWSAIS in The Beyond after the destruction of reality by The Beyonders, he doesn't actually defeat them, he merely makes them unsure of their own grasp of reality and afraid by telling them that they, like himself, are just stories. While Loki, a god, is merely a story invented by humans, TWSAIS as Elder Gods are merely the stories invented by the gods. This frightens TWSAIS and makes them retreat. When GOS Loki manipulates a story, he is not using reality warping and neither are his runes when he casts them. He is simply manipulating mechanics of the Marvel Universe in his favor. When he uses a rune against beings like NYX, during the trial Hercules tells GOS Loki "What about it Loki? Ready to send us Home? Because if not ... well I think Nyx outranks you now ..." to which Loki replies "It's not me. Uruz has power here. And it's not satisfied." The goings on of said story are the work of the rune manipulating the story, not Loki or the rune manipulating reality itself out of shear power.
  • It can not even be said that Utgard Loki created Utgard effortlessly. We know that all the Elder Gods were making realms for themselves. He merely showed Gaea the entrance to his realm. That cannot be interpreted as him creating the realm right there on the spot, he likely had been working on it for some time before hand.
  • The Elder Gods’ realms being in The Beyond is possibly a range feat and not AP. Making something within the contents of another thing does not scale the internal object to the external realm unless there is evidence of such. A person building a house out of legos does not scale them to the universe. Similarly Utgard Loki making a realm inside of The Beyond does not necessarily scale him to it as we are not told if he warped the fabric of The Beyond to create it, or if he used his own power to bring it into being inside of The Beyond. If it is the later than this would not scale him to The Beyond. The fact that Toranos could not return from The Far Shore far faster than he did when Utgard is located beyond The Far Shore where he was banished in The Beyond demonstrates that Utgard Loki used his own magic to create his realm and did not warp the fabric of reality in The Beyond. If Toranos did scale to The Beyond he would have been able to get back without any issue at all and without any time or effort.
In conclusion (How you should adjust your tiering):
  • It should be quite obvious that while The Elder Gods are powerful, they are nowhere near High-1A. They simply do not have the feats to back up scaling to such a high level.
  • Their showings and statements consistently place them at 1A being comparable to universal abstracts. The number of lower feats VASTLY outnumbers the high tier feats and with the exception of the Chaos King arc Hercules feat, all of the high end feats can be reasonably and logically explained in a lower framework.
  • Their essence / true self can be interpreted as 1A+ scaling to the Gaea amped Hercules feat which scales to Multi-Eternity and comparable but ultimately slightly below The Chaos King.
  • Despite what I have said, I don't think that the fact that the Elder God realms are contained within The Beyond should be discounted. What I think can be said here is that the Elder God realms are comparable in scale to Multi-Eternity (but not The Beyond as a whole) which is consistent with the true essence of Elder God Gaea having power comparable to Multi-Eternity. It is clear that a realm of the scale of Multi-Eternity is more than enough to contain an Elder God as seen by the time it took for Toranos to return from The Far Shore. The difference between The Beyond realm and Multi-Eternity is not even that large as The Beyond is merely the remains of The Second Cosmos after it commit suicide so this is pretty consistent. As such maybe it can be said that inside their realms / their true forms they are 1A+ scaling to Multi-Eternity while outside of them they are 1A scaling to Universal Eternity.
  • Since Thor is half Elder God, perhaps his inner essence should be treated as up to 1A+ as well.
 
Last edited:
NaturalDestroyer said:
3. I do like the one on the draft currently but I'm open to suggestions. Do you have any images you'd like to bring up as options?
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, no. My main issue with it is that I don't think he ever actually looks like that in the stories, I'm pretty sure its just a variant cover. Normally, he's wearing the red cloak and stuff, right? Its not really a big deal though, since I can't find any alternatives and the render we have does look good.
 
PromptedElephant641 said:
Not so fast buckaroo, that Elder God / Rune scaling there is lookin mighty SUS. Everything else is good though.

What we do know about where The Elder Gods are in the cosmic hierarchy and their feats:

High End Elder God Feats:
  • Hercules was able to contend with (but was weaker and would ultimately lose) Chaos King by using the power of Gaea’s essence. The true essence of Elder Gods is likely in this level. - 1A+
  • Utgard-Loki creates Utgard which exists at the level of The Beyond last The Far Shore. TWASIS, other Elder Gods that came to Utgard, were found in The Beyond after all Creation was destroyed by The Beyonders. The Utgard gods are no different from any other Elder Gods and are likely weaker than Set and Chthon who did not see any need to band together “for safety in numbers” feeling secure in their own power, this feat as such would scale to all Elder Gods. - 1A+ [Note: Creating Utgard past The Far Shore in The Beyond could be interpreted as a Range Feat and not AP]
Regular Elder God Showings (from the main Marvel discussion thread):
  • Chthon, besides being an Elder God, is also a Great Old One (Many Angled One), who are comparable to abstract entities. - 1A
  • Oshtur being a third of the Vishanti, who are comparable to the Great Old One Slorioth, fought Shuma-Gorath ages ago, can defeat Dormammu, and have the same position in the cosmic hierarchy as the Phoenix Force and In-Betweener. - 1A
  • Wyrm, who exists in every reality across all time, was a threat to all existence. - 1A
  • Utgard Gods are to the Aesir what the Aesir are to mortals, and have possible R>F over them via their relationship being described through Plato's allegory of the cave. - 1A
  • Tiwaz is the Utgard equivalent of Odin as Utgard-Thor (Toranos) and Utgard-Loki are to their Asgardian counterparts, and Hela fears him, and the Odin-Power is useless against him. - at least Low-1A possibly 1A
  • Toranos considered Odinforce Thor a puny micro-god whose lightning means nothing to him. - at least Low-1A possibly 1A
  • Gaea endured baby Thor crying in her womb producing storms that could destroy the world, and these storms from newborn Thor were strong enough to shake the world tree and all its realms (though Gaea scaling directly to this is iffy). She was also implied to be capable of stopping Slorioth. - at least Low-1A possibly 1A
  • Set is a multidimensional entity entwined across myriad alternate earths, and his body is consequently shown to be longer than many alternate earths. His What-If variant (keep in mind, Set is indicated to exist across all realities simultaneously). In an alternate reality, Earth-9151, while in the process of manifesting on earth and amassing power, overpowered Phoenix Force Rachel (and consumed The Universal Phoenix Force) killed Thor, Doctor Strnage and other heroes, and fought Enigma Force Captain Universe for eternity. He also scales above the serpent crowns, which are the most awesome objects of power in the multiverse. - 1A
Additionally:
  • Chthon (while possessing Quicksilver) could have destroyed 616-Eternity as a result of his chaos per the admission of Eternity himself in Overspaxe. - 1A [possibly 1A+ if this is referring to Multi-Eternity but this does not seem to be the case as the multiverse is not mentioned in the story and the events are only shown play out on Earth.]
  • Chthon (while possessing Quicksilver) banished the entirety of Asgard to the void with it being beyond Thor’s and the rest of Asgard’s ability to do anything to escape their predicament or for Heimdall’s abilities to even see anything with his all seeing powers or for Loki’s magic to deduce anything regarding their situation. - 1A
  • Chthon’s personal slave race the N’garai range in power from being absolutely irrelevant up to overpowering Doctor strange to even being the “elder gods of Limbo” themselves - varies from irrelevant fodder to Low-1A
  • Chthon is said to be the greatest of The Old Ones as well as the greatest of The Elder Gods. - 1A
  • Just being near Chthon’s true form within his dimension terrifies Doctor Strange to near hopelessness and is only saved by some higher power. Chthon in this story is treated as a totally incompressible darkness without any actual true form. - 1A
  • Chthon is likely even more powerful in his realm than he was in the ancient era when he walked the earth with his fellow Elder Gods. Having become so vast with magical energies that his true self can’t leave his realm and instead relies on possession, manifestations, or vessels as no magical portal can convey his full essence. - 1A
  • Chthon is to all other demons what the universe is to humanity. - 1A
  • Chthon is older than the entirety of the celestial race and states that he could destroy them. - 1A [this likely refers to the universal celestials and not the Multiversal Celestials. The statement about him being older than The Celestials is obviously not accurate as The Celestials were created by The First Firmament itself long before Chthon came into existence.] - 1A+ if the statement is decided to refer to The True form Celestials.
  • Chthon is the god and master of the discipline of Chaos Magic.
  • Elder Gods are typically treated as above powerful Doctor strange foes like Dormammu, who once used the Cauldron of Chthon to plunge the world into Darkness. - at least Low-1A possibly 1A.
  • Chthon has a spell that can turn a being into a new Demogorge while being bound to Chthon’s will in order to destroy all other gods, elder gods, mystical entities, and forces etc. - at least 1A
The Relation Between The Elder Gods and The Abstracts. While Elder Gods and Abstracts have not interacted on many occasions, the few times they that they have have not been in their favor (with the exception of Chthon nearly killing Earth-616 Eternity as a result of his chaos and Set killing the universal Phoenix of Earth-9151.):
  • A manifestation of The Powers That Be views Chthon as a mere practitioner of its power. (The Goddess Witchcraft is similarly beneath said manifestation of TPTB as well but she is not an Elder God so that is not relevant.)
  • The Griever at The End of All Things could easily kill and erase Darkhold Scarlet Witch requiring the Never Queen to remake her.
  • The Living Tribunal is above the notice and concerns of Darkhold Scarlet Witch and Agatha Harkness.
  • Magic was created in the Fifth Cosmos from the left over energies of the Fourth Cosmos. The Elder Gods are all magical entities with all of their powers being magic based in origin.
  • Magic and science were not even concepts in the Third Cosmos and before.
  • Toranos could be banished to the far shore by Thor at the edge of Multi-Eternity. While he would return, it did take time for this to happen and could not cross that distance at once. If he were truly a Multi-Abstract tiered being, it would have taken essentially no time at all to return being able to cross such distances in an instant.
Additional Stuff:
  • The profile proposed states that Zeus was a greater danger than a “Full powered Nyx” however, Zeus is a regular god and is not nearly powerful enough to challenge her. The context needs to be examined. In the past, a weakened in-universe incarnation of Nyx easily killed Zeus. Additionally, They are in some random dimension called “The Land Without Suns” this is not The Cold Dark Room. As for Zeus surviving an enraged attack from Nyx, that is not how it happens, Nyx simply tells Thor that she is not why he and Hercules are in her realm and casually (not going all out or enraged) calls down two moons on Thor, Hercules, and Zeus. Thor and Hercules run away from this attack which if anything is an anti-feat (that can be ignored as obviously both characters are above moon level) while Zeus tanks it. As for GOS Loki, he / she was not manipulating events by herself and was working alongside Athena. Back with Zeus and Nyx, Zeus refers to Nyx as "a being of great power and great darkness". Nyx states "I have the power to free him from this dimension ... but first I must free myself." When Zeus starts fighting Thor and is being humiliated by Thor's ability to control his own lightning, Nyx asks him almost jokingly if he wants help. All of this is consistent with what has already been established that the universal / in universe forms of Nyx are superior to Zeus. This is still an impressive feat with Thor showing that even though he is younger, he is the superior god of thunder and lightning than Zeus.
  • The feat about Mistress Death and Eternity being part of Utgard Loki’s trials is likely referring to a universal depiction, not the Multi-Death and Multi-Eternity versions. This is consistent with Elder Gods being portrayed as comparable to Universal Abstracts as shown above.
  • God of Stories Loki’s abilities are not AP and are hax based Plot Manipulation. Defeating his hax just means that said character has better hax / hax resistance than GOS Loki so the Elder Gods would just have layered hax / hax resistance above GOS Loki. Whenever GOS Loki has appeared he has never even demonstrated any impressive reality warping or ability to manipulate large cosmological structures. Instead he has hax abilities that allow him to manipulate the plot in the way that the runes he uses see fit. When he meets TWSAIS in The Beyond after the destruction of reality by The Beyonders, he doesn't actually defeat them, he merely makes them unsure of their own grasp of reality and afraid by telling them that they, like himself, are just stories. While Loki, a god, is merely a story invented by humans, TWSAIS as Elder Gods are merely the stories invented by the gods. This frightens TWSAIS and makes them retreat. When GOS Loki manipulates a story, he is not using reality warping and neither are his runes when he casts them. He is simply manipulating mechanics of the Marvel Universe in his favor. When he uses a rune against beings like NYX, during the trial Hercules tells GOS Loki "What about it Loki? Ready to send us Home? Because if not ... well I think Nyx outranks you now ..." to which Loki replies "It's not me. Uruz has power here. And it's not satisfied." The goings on of said story are the work of the rune manipulating the story, not Loki or the rune manipulating reality itself out of shear power.
  • It can not even be said that Utgard Loki created Utgard effortlessly. We know that all the Elder Gods were making realms for themselves. He merely showed Gaea the entrance to his realm. That cannot be interpreted as him creating the realm right there on the spot, he likely had been working on it for some time before hand.
  • The Elder Gods’ realms being in The Beyond is possibly a range feat and not AP. Making something within the contents of another thing does not scale the internal object to the external realm unless there is evidence of such. A person building a house out of legos does not scale them to the universe. Similarly Utgard Loki making a realm inside of The Beyond does not necessarily scale him to it as we are not told if he warped the fabric of The Beyond to create it, or if he used his own power to bring it into being inside of The Beyond. If it is the later than this would not scale him to The Beyond. The fact that Toranos could not return from The Far Shore far faster than he did when Utgard is located beyond The Far Shore where he was banished in The Beyond demonstrates that Utgard Loki used his own magic to create his realm and did not warp the fabric of reality in The Beyond. If Toranos did scale to The Beyond he would have been able to get back without any issue at all and without any time or effort.
In conclusion (How you should adjust your tiering):
  • It should be quite obvious that while The Elder Gods are powerful, they are nowhere near High-1A. They simply do not have the feats to back up scaling to such a high level.
  • Their showings and statements consistently place them at 1A being comparable to universal abstracts. The number of lower feats VASTLY outnumbers the high tier feats and with the exception of the Chaos King arc Hercules feat, all of the high end feats can be reasonably and logically explained in a lower framework.
  • Their essence / true self can be interpreted as 1A+ scaling to the Gaea amped Hercules feat which scales to Multi-Eternity and comparable but ultimately slightly below The Chaos King.
  • Despite what I have said, I don't think that the fact that the Elder God realms are contained within The Beyond should be discounted. What I think can be said here is that the Elder God realms are comparable in scale to Multi-Eternity (but not The Beyond as a whole) which is consistent with the true essence of Elder God Gaea having power comparable to Multi-Eternity. It is clear that a realm of the scale of Multi-Eternity is more than enough to contain an Elder God as seen by the time it took for Toranos to return from The Far Shore. The difference between The Beyond realm and Multi-Eternity is not even that large as The Beyond is merely the remains of The Second Cosmos after it commit suicide so this is pretty consistent. As such maybe it can be said that inside their realms / their true forms they are 1A+ scaling to Multi-Eternity while outside of them they are 1A scaling to Universal Eternity.
  • Since Thor is half Elder God, perhaps his inner essence should be treated as up to 1A+ as well.
Click to expand...
I actually agree with most of this (apart from Chthon and Set scaling above the Utgard Gods, since it was stated that no Elder Gods could challenge Kemur except Atum himself). The High 1-A on the profile isn't for the Elder Gods, it's for Nyx (I'm not arguing for High 1-A Utgard). It's formatted as "Outerverse level+, possibly High Outerverse level" to account for the Nyx scaling. I could easily change the formatting to "Outerverse level+ (Elder God stuff), possibly High Outerverse level (amped Nyx stuff)

I also agree with 1-A+ inner essence Thor, but this draft profile represents a compromise between my position and the position that he caps at Low 1-A.
 
ObberGobb said:
Unfortunately, no. My main issue with it is that I don't think he ever actually looks like that in the stories, I'm pretty sure its just a variant cover. Normally, he's wearing the red cloak and stuff, right? Its not really a big deal though, since I can't find any alternatives and the render we have does look good.
Click to expand...
Yeah, the one that's on the draft profile right now isn't the one I replaced it with. Somehow it reverted to the original. I should have a chance to fix it tonight or tomorrow
 
NaturalDestroyer said:
apart from Chthon and Set scaling above the Utgard Gods, since it was stated that no Elder Gods could challenge Kemur except Atum himself
Click to expand...
It should also be noted that the Utgard Gods are new characters, so old statements about the relative power of Elder Gods aren't necessarily applicable to them. It seems to me that the Utgard Gods are quite different than other gods
 
ObberGobb said:
It should also be noted that the Utgard Gods are new characters, so old statements about the relative power of Elder Gods aren't necessarily applicable to them. It seems to me that the Utgard Gods are quite different than other gods
Click to expand...
That's a valid point as well that would allow for Utgard Gods to be higher than typical Elder Gods. I don't think for a second that every Elder God is 1-A+, but the Utgard Gods have a pretty good case for it
 
I just updated the profile to have the Utgard 1-A+ scaling separate from the possible High 1-A Nyx scaling. I also fixed the Unworthy Thor render so it reflects a comic-accurate design.
 
I am on the phone now, so it’s hard to check, but did you add his High 1-A Rune Weapons to his equipment?
 
NaturalDestroyer said:
I actually agree with most of this (apart from Chthon and Set scaling above the Utgard Gods, since it was stated that no Elder Gods could challenge Kemur except Atum himself). The High 1-A on the profile isn't for the Elder Gods, it's for Nyx (I'm not arguing for High 1-A Utgard). It's formatted as "Outerverse level+, possibly High Outerverse level" to account for the Nyx scaling. I could easily change the formatting to "Outerverse level+ (Elder God stuff), possibly High Outerverse level (amped Nyx stuff)

I also agree with 1-A+ inner essence Thor, but this draft profile represents a compromise between my position and the position that he caps at Low 1-A.
Click to expand...
I think that for Thor's inner essence something could be said in regards to the fact that he has yet to fully come into his full power. He does not yet fully understand his true nature and as such cannot yet access the total capacity of his Elder God heritage. In general what you have now, as Low-1A, is simply how Thor knows how to use his power; however, he has the potential for far higher over time as he unlocks more of his half Elder God nature.

As for Set and Chthon, they did not need to band together with other Elder Gods to survive the way the Elder Gods that fled to Utgard did and were perfectly fine on their own. Set and Chthon are also the two Elder Gods with the highest body count having slaughtered and consumed a sizable amount of their siblings and are prime contributors for the reason why there are very few Elder Gods left along with The Demogorge of course. The fact that the Elder Gods of Utgard band together instead of attacking one another points to their vulnerability amongst the ranks of their siblings. While I don't think that they are amongst the weaker Elder Gods, this points to them being lesser than Set and Chthon. Of the two, Chthon is probably the most powerful of the Elder Gods and has multiple statements of being the most mighty of their number. This does track given that since his banishment, his magic has grown so potent that there is a spell in The Darkhold that can turn a being into a new Demogorge loyal to Chthon (without the assistance that Gaea had from The Demiurge) programmed with the command to destroy all other magic beings and gods. In general over the decades, Chthon has definitely accumulated the best feats; however, in the past 5 or so years (especially since going mainstream in Multiverse Of Madness) he has suffered due to becoming a more well known and more used character. (I think that if Chthon hadn't become so tied up with Scarlet Witch content, that he and Set likely would have featured in a Thor story) As for Set, during the age of the reptiles, of which Set is their patron, he became so powerful that he returned to Earth and engaged in an eons long one on one battle with The Demogorge that ultimately resulted in him being banished again.

ObberGobb said:
It should also be noted that the Utgard Gods are new characters, so old statements about the relative power of Elder Gods aren't necessarily applicable to them. It seems to me that the Utgard Gods are quite different than other gods
Click to expand...
They are somewhat different from the Elder Gods we have already been introduced to given that while clearly violent and destructive, they are not so degenerate and brutal (like Chthonic and Set) that Gaea invited them back to Earth. Even before they left Earth they were on good enough terms that Utgard-Loki gave Gaea a key to their realm. That being said, they are still part of the same class of beings as their siblings. The reality is they are all comparable to one another. Any amongst them that were noticeably weaker were either consumed by Chthon and Set (or any of the other unnamed less significant Elder Gods) or obliterated by The Demogorge.

NaturalDestroyer said:
That's a valid point as well that would allow for Utgard Gods to be higher than typical Elder Gods. I don't think for a second that every Elder God is 1-A+, but the Utgard Gods have a pretty good case for it
Click to expand...
I think that any of The Elder Gods that managed to go on and create their own vast domains, such as Set, Chthon, and The Elder Gods of Utgard, are roughly comparable. While never shown to have gone on to create a realm, presumably Oshtur should be counted amongst them as well considering that her special artifact, The Sword of Bone, forms one of The Cornerstones of Creation alongside the artifacts of the other big 4 (Chthon [The Darkhold], Set [The Serpent Crown], and Gaea [The Ebon Rose]). There are undoubtedly weaker Elder Gods that we have not been introduced to that simply fled before any fighting between them began and while 1A in nature, are not nearly as powerful as their major siblings.

Overall, as I stated, Elder Gods outside of their realms are generally portrayed in a 1A manner whereas for their true essence and when inside their realms they should be 1A+.

NaturalDestroyer said:
I just updated the profile to have the Utgard 1-A+ scaling separate from the possible High 1-A Nyx scaling. I also fixed the Unworthy Thor render so it reflects a comic-accurate design.
Click to expand...

The Immortal All-Father key should be adjusted as follows:

Attack Potency: Varies according to the Allsleep. From at least Low Outerverse level (Stomped Gorr and Twilight Sword Mangog simultaneously. Oneshot Frost Giant Zarathos. Far superior to his base, who overpowered the totality of Yggdrasil's strength) likely Outerverse level (He is on roughly on the same level as an in universe manifestation of Nyx who had fully recovered her strength and surpassed her previous peak of power. The first "Endless Night" restored her in universe form "back from dust and ash" (as seen in Avengers No Road Home) and a second Endless Night "restored [her] power" (as seen in Immortal Thor) such that she has surpassed the power that she had prior to being banished by Zeus when she was part of The Greek Pantheon to the degree that Hercules says: "The Night Queen is not recovering--she has recovered all her power and more! He overpowered a massively amped Reborn Zeus, who easily withstood an attack from Nyx that Thor and Hercules were weary to endure themselves and was stated by God of Stories Loki and WoG to be an even greater danger than Nyx. However, these later statements are not really supported by what is shown as Zeus considers her "A being of great power and great darkness" and even takes up the cause of night. Nyx is unimpressed with the fight between Thor and Zeus and sarcastically asks Zeus if he wants help. Upon realizing that The Land Without Suns is an ideal environment for her, she becomes far more powerful with Hercules stating: "What about it, loki? Ready to send us home? Because if not... Well, I think Nyx outranks you now.") up to Outerverse level+ (Reforged Mjolnir stronger than ever, so should be above his previous peak as All-Father. Broke out of Gaea's restraints and decapitated her while she was merciless and in the place of her power, with Gaea's power being capable of matching the Chaos King. [https://imgchest.com/p/ne7breb8vy5 Bloodlusted Thor single-handedly defeated the Elder Gods NRGL and Mejed, with Utgard Elder Gods being primordial concepts as above the Aesir as Aesir are above mortals, and regular gods being only stories and "shadow-play on a cave wall" compared to the Utgard Elder Gods. Jane Foster borrowing Thor's power cracked the Wheel of Fate wielded by Toranos, who was comparable to Utgard-Loki, and Thor was able to kill a weakened Toranos. Knocked down and bloodied Kemur, who "none could challenge" except Atum, with their confrontation "deciding the fates" of all other Elder Gods. Kemur is shown to have fought and implied to be superior to Utgard-Loki, who used Mistress Death and Eternity as puppets in his trials and created Utgard, a realm in the Mystery beyond "all charts, maps, rule, and theory" existing only in metaphor, "outside existence and no realm at all", that was where gods erased from existence by Oblivion went, representing The-Land-of-True-Things compared to the dream of reality, that transcended Multi-Eternity)
 
PromptedElephant641 said:
I think that for Thor's inner essence something could be said in regards to the fact that he has yet to fully come into his full power. He does not yet fully understand his true nature and as such cannot yet access the total capacity of his Elder God heritage. In general what you have now, as Low-1A, is simply how Thor knows how to use his power; however, he has the potential for far higher over time as he unlocks more of his half Elder God nature.

As for Set and Chthon, they did not need to band together with other Elder Gods to survive the way the Elder Gods that fled to Utgard did and were perfectly fine on their own. Set and Chthon are also the two Elder Gods with the highest body count having slaughtered and consumed a sizable amount of their siblings and are prime contributors for the reason why there are very few Elder Gods left along with The Demogorge of course. The fact that the Elder Gods of Utgard band together instead of attacking one another points to their vulnerability amongst the ranks of their siblings. While I don't think that they are amongst the weaker Elder Gods, this points to them being lesser than Set and Chthon. Of the two, Chthon is probably the most powerful of the Elder Gods and has multiple statements of being the most mighty of their number. This does track given that since his banishment, his magic has grown so potent that there is a spell in The Darkhold that can turn a being into a new Demogorge loyal to Chthon (without the assistance that Gaea had from The Demiurge) programmed with the command to destroy all other magic beings and gods. In general over the decades, Chthon has definitely accumulated the best feats; however, in the past 5 or so years (especially since going mainstream in Multiverse Of Madness) he has suffered due to becoming a more well known and more used character. (I think that if Chthon hadn't become so tied up with Scarlet Witch content, that he and Set likely would have featured in a Thor story) As for Set, during the age of the reptiles, of which Set is their patron, he became so powerful that he returned to Earth and engaged in an eons long one on one battle with The Demogorge that ultimately resulted in him being banished again.


They are somewhat different from the Elder Gods we have already been introduced to given that while clearly violent and destructive, they are not so degenerate and brutal (like Chthonic and Set) that Gaea invited them back to Earth. Even before they left Earth they were on good enough terms that Utgard-Loki gave Gaea a key to their realm. That being said, they are still part of the same class of beings as their siblings. The reality is they are all comparable to one another. Any amongst them that were noticeably weaker were either consumed by Chthon and Set (or any of the other unnamed less significant Elder Gods) or obliterated by The Demogorge.


I think that any of The Elder Gods that managed to go on and create their own vast domains, such as Set, Chthon, and The Elder Gods of Utgard, are roughly comparable. While never shown to have gone on to create a realm, presumably Oshtur should be counted amongst them as well considering that her special artifact, The Sword of Bone, forms one of The Cornerstones of Creation alongside the artifacts of the other big 4 (Chthon [The Darkhold], Set [The Serpent Crown], and Gaea [The Ebon Rose]). There are undoubtedly weaker Elder Gods that we have not been introduced to that simply fled before any fighting between them began and while 1A in nature, are not nearly as powerful as their major siblings.

Overall, as I stated, Elder Gods outside of their realms are generally portrayed in a 1A manner whereas for their true essence and when inside their realms they should be 1A+.



The Immortal All-Father key should be adjusted as follows:

Attack Potency: Varies according to the Allsleep. From at least Low Outerverse level (Stomped Gorr and Twilight Sword Mangog simultaneously. Oneshot Frost Giant Zarathos. Far superior to his base, who overpowered the totality of Yggdrasil's strength) likely Outerverse level (He is on roughly on the same level as an in universe manifestation of Nyx who had fully recovered her strength and surpassed her previous peak of power. The first "Endless Night" restored her in universe form "back from dust and ash" (as seen in Avengers No Road Home) and a second Endless Night "restored [her] power" (as seen in Immortal Thor) such that she has surpassed the power that she had prior to being banished by Zeus when she was part of The Greek Pantheon to the degree that Hercules says: "The Night Queen is not recovering--she has recovered all her power and more! He overpowered a massively amped Reborn Zeus, who easily withstood an attack from Nyx that Thor and Hercules were weary to endure themselves and was stated by God of Stories Loki and WoG to be an even greater danger than Nyx. However, these later statements are not really supported by what is shown as Zeus considers her "A being of great power and great darkness" and even takes up the cause of night. Nyx is unimpressed with the fight between Thor and Zeus and sarcastically asks Zeus if he wants help. Upon realizing that The Land Without Suns is an ideal environment for her, she becomes far more powerful with Hercules stating: "What about it, loki? Ready to send us home? Because if not... Well, I think Nyx outranks you now.") up to Outerverse level+ (Reforged Mjolnir stronger than ever, so should be above his previous peak as All-Father. Broke out of Gaea's restraints and decapitated her while she was merciless and in the place of her power, with Gaea's power being capable of matching the Chaos King. [https://imgchest.com/p/ne7breb8vy5 Bloodlusted Thor single-handedly defeated the Elder Gods NRGL and Mejed, with Utgard Elder Gods being primordial concepts as above the Aesir as Aesir are above mortals, and regular gods being only stories and "shadow-play on a cave wall" compared to the Utgard Elder Gods. Jane Foster borrowing Thor's power cracked the Wheel of Fate wielded by Toranos, who was comparable to Utgard-Loki, and Thor was able to kill a weakened Toranos. Knocked down and bloodied Kemur, who "none could challenge" except Atum, with their confrontation "deciding the fates" of all other Elder Gods. Kemur is shown to have fought and implied to be superior to Utgard-Loki, who used Mistress Death and Eternity as puppets in his trials and created Utgard, a realm in the Mystery beyond "all charts, maps, rule, and theory" existing only in metaphor, "outside existence and no realm at all", that was where gods erased from existence by Oblivion went, representing The-Land-of-True-Things compared to the dream of reality, that transcended Multi-Eternity)
Click to expand...
1. I agree with 1-A+ inner essence base Thor. However, it seems that I'm in the minority here, hence the concessions in the profile for the sake of moving the revisions along.
2. I'm not so sure about Set and Chthon really being the strongest. Taking different strategies to escape Atum doesn't necessarily mean that they're stronger or weaker, while it was outright stated that none of the other Elder Gods could challenge Kemur before Atum came along. Narratively that would include Set and Chthon--not that they aren't powerful, and they might have their own statements, but they essentially got power-crept by Ewing.
3. All Elder Gods are the same type of being, yes, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're all the same power level. By that logic all regular gods are the same power level, but what we actually see is tremendous variance. Among Asgardians, for example, you can find Spider-Man tier warriors as well as low outerversal super-deities, and the same is true for any of the other pantheons.
4. It's possible that Set, Chthon, Gaea, and Oshtur are theoretically comparable to the Utgard Gods, but it would be better to have something on-screen showing that for sure.
5. In terms of the Nyx stuff... right now, full-power Nyx upon reclaiming all of the Night Shards is accepted on the wiki as High 1-A. The Nyx that Loki thought was too evenly matched with Thor to be an interesting challenge was at her previous full power in Antarctica thanks to two endless nights, with Hercules remarking that she'd surpassed her previous levels. Severely weakened Nyx completely stomped regular skyfather-level Zeus, effortlessly snapping his neck, and as she regained the Night Shards her power increased exponentially. Contextually, it makes far more sense for Hercules to be referring to Nyx's previous peak of power the last time he saw her, after she'd regained all three Night Shards, rather than what she'd been millennia earlier. Reborn Zeus seems to be on a completely different realm of power than his original form, as both Loki and WoG outright refer to him as a greater danger than this amped Nyx, who narratively is far beyond regular Zeus.

Regular Zeus < Severely weakened Nyx << 1 Night Shard Nyx << 2 Night Shards Nyx << Full Power Nyx < Amped Antarctica Nyx < Amped Dark Cold Room Nyx < Reborn Zeus < Immortal Thor. However, Thor stomping Zeus who was stated to be a greater danger than amped Nyx is somewhat contradicted by Loki regarding amped Nyx and Thor to be evenly matched, hence the "possibly High 1-A" rather than a solid rating. Additionally, neither Thor nor Reborn Zeus scale to Nyx once she speaks to Hercules and realizes she can expand infinitely in the Dark Cold Room/Land Without Suns/Shadow Kingdom (which are all different names for the same place). That would be the strongest Nyx ever seen and isn't particularly relevant for the scaling here.

Of course, that's moot if Nyx isn't High 1-A, but that's not a conversation for this thread.
 
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