Kefka vs Kafka (9-7-1)

[Theglassman12]

Any proof that being comparable in strength means you can jump large distances? Because all I'm seeing is some dodging and her general fighting, not literal leaping around like a Dragoon.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

@TheKingStrategist13 So still close enough that Kefka can fly away from the range. Her running up to Kefka doesn’t mean much if he can move vertically, making it even harder for her to attack.

It being faster isn’t the point, it’s the fact he can just get away from her in general and spam from a distance. Unless she’s capable of catching someone who can fly several hundred meters away and spam magic from a distance, the chances of her landing her hit is far lesser than Kefka’s.

You don't seem to get it, I'm explaining to you that he's not getting out of range. Can he fly? Yes. Can Kafka land her Spirit Whisper the moment she sees he's trying to go upwards? Also yes. With speed equalized, there is blatantly no way he is getting beyond the range limit before Kafka reacts. For him to escape, he has to fly so fast that Kafka can't react before he exits her range. I see little reason to assume that's happening. She frankly doesn't even need to chase him, but the fact she could attempt to just makes it all the harder to believe he's exiting her range.

Can you prove that Kefka can exit Kafka's range before she can react to seeing him moving, and thus her using her Spirit Whisper in response?

That’s how final fantasy magic works in lore yeah. Also again why do you keep saying death hax like that’s relevant here? Can you address the arguments I’ve been making and not make strawmans? And yes knowing what Kefka does in the story, he will try to end the fight if he knows the person he’s facing is a threat. I’ve literally mentioned General Leo and the Returners as examples in this thread on how he’d willingly use the stuff to win against people he knows are threats and you keep ignoring them for a standard weakness for Kefka that isn’t applicable here.

I do hope you have been properly reading my arguments, as I think I made it clear that I bring up Death Manip as a point of comparison. Death Manip is a blatantly powerful ability that I imagine many of his enemies have been vulnerable to, yet he never starts off with it, even when he's genuinely going for the win. In the same vein, he has abilities Kafka would be vulnerable to, yet if he doesn't ever bust out something like Death Manip as his first move, is it not plausible to assume that he won't immediately go for, well, freezing her atoms and what not? It was just a way for me to explore his thought process in character.

I am in no way Strawmanning. I'm addressing the arguments you make. You make the argument that Kefka can fly out of her range, correct? And I'm refuting that point, not something unrelated.
Hey, don't blame me for the fact someone decided to literally put down the weakness of "not ever being serious unless enraged". That's what the profile says. If you don't like it, make a CRT, otherwise, yeah, not gonna lie, I can and will drive this point into the ground. If I wanna be a jerk, I can even say that since the only listed exception is him being enraged, that things being dire changes nothing. I won't go with that argument for right now, however, but still, his profile lists it as a valid weakness for us all to consider.

Anyways, if FF magic works like that, you mean to say that the instant Kefka so much as thinks, Kafka is forcibly incinerated, and there is 0 counterplay? If that were something he did 100% of the time, and were to do immediately, then this would sound rather like a stomp.

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

Any proof that being comparable in strength means you can jump large distances?

Because in-series and in real life, jumping comes from strength and strength is comparable between these characters. This is just common sense stuff a series wouldn't really think of addressing to be explicit enough for powerscaling nerds.

Also yeah, this is assuming Kefka can instantly get out of Kafka's range, and I don't accept that premise with speed equalised / Kafka having the edge.

 

[Theglassman12]

@TheKingStrategist13 Him flying is the proof, you just saying she just uses the threads isn't helping much when we're talking about a character who requires dragoon levels of agility from other final fantasy characters that cannot fly in order to catch up to him.

Said foes he's fighting have equipment to resist death hax so this example doesn't work here, plus we literally see him in his own boss fights he uses the elemental spells like blizzard, firaga, and thunder. Why are we assuming he wouldn't go for the most basic final fantasy spells any mage worth a damn can use? Can you prove he doesn't use these despite the fact we see him use these moves in his own boss fight?

You can drive this point to the ground, it doesn't change the fact you're just blatantly ignoring the points I'm making where he literally goes for the kill against General Leo or used the statues against the Returners the moment they got near him in the Floating Continents. Kefka's psychotic, not moronic, otherwise he wouldn't have pulled off more than half of the stunts he did throughout FF6. It would only be a stomp if Kafka doesn't have any way shape or form to win, she has a wincon in this fight, difference is Kefka's chances of landing his is far higher than Kafka.

@PlungingThroughTime That doesn't tell me much. Is there anything that shows the Honkai characters by being comparable to one another is able to do these things akin to how ninjas in Naruto is capable of doing near identical acrobatic movements with Chakra? Or any Jedi/Siths in Star Wars where the Force itself is basically allowing them to do these insane movements in combat? The fact Kafka's not shown to do anything on this level and her page just shows a basic wall run as her acrobatic feat doesn't really give me much confidence that she can leap around buildings and skyscrapers to try and catch Kefka in the middle of a city.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Hey, don't blame me for the fact someone decided to literally put down the weakness of "not ever being serious unless enraged". That's what the profile says. If you don't like it, make a CRT, otherwise, yeah, not gonna lie, I can and will drive this point into the ground. If I wanna be a jerk, I can even say that since the only listed exception is him being enraged, that things being dire changes nothing. I won't go with that argument for right now, however, but still, his profile lists it as a valid weakness for us all to consider.

Wow, guess I am being ignored

Also, Honkai peeps, just so you know...

The entire "Kefka won't take this seriously!" argument is killed by Standard Battle Assumptions. Kefka considers this to be dire. He's going to not be ******* around.

 

[Mbpoops]

More acrobatic kafka moments

^

 

[Mbpoops]

Wow, guess I am being ignored

So then why are we arguing him flying away?

How long does his death hax take to activate

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

@PlungingThroughTime That doesn't tell me much. Is there anything that shows the Honkai characters by being comparable to one another is able to do these things akin to how ninjas in Naruto is capable of doing near identical acrobatic movements with Chakra? Or any Jedi/Siths in Star Wars where the Force itself is basically allowing them to do these insane movements in combat? The fact Kafka's not shown to do anything on this level and her page just shows a basic wall run as her acrobatic feat doesn't really give me much confidence that she can leap around buildings and skyscrapers to try and catch Kefka in the middle of a city.

I mean, they're all pathstriders which enhance their strength, speed, etc. Being a pathstrider means they can draw power from a path, which is very much like the force.

 

[DaReaperMan]

So then why are we arguing him flying away?

Because that is LITERALLY one of his main tactics when in something even resembling SBA conditions.

How long does his death hax take to activate

I take this as confirmation that you are not arguing against Theglassman12, you are arguing against what you believe he's saying without actually reading his arguments.

I want you to point out in what post in this thread Theglassman12 has actually used Death hax as an argument. Not mentioning it in response to someone else, I mean using it as an argument. I can promise you, you will find nothing. Because he has not used it as an argument. I literally just checked the entire thread.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Mbpoops Neither of those clips shows Kafka having anything akin to these types of movements. So again I don't see how Kafka's gonna scale entire buildings here to catch up to someone like Kefka.

Have you payed attention to ANY of my posts or have you been skimming this thread? Because news flash, I've not remotely argued Death Hax as a wincon for Kefka, just Subjective Reality as the most basic thing FF magic can do being a wincon for him. Any of his spells period is Subjective reality based, AKA something Kafka's susceptible to and the most basic FF magic spells are able to durability negate with how they're described so again, please read the thread.

@PlungingThroughTime And nothing about Imaginary energy remotely mentions that acrobatics is something that's granted to them as a result of being a Pathstrider. The force has that on its page at least with it being how the Jedis and Siths in general being able to do their insane movement. I don't see this for Kafka, just that she has a brief 2 second clip of fighting some random mooks in a club and another brief clip of fighting someone else.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

@TheKingStrategist13 Him flying is the proof, you just saying she just uses the threads isn't helping much when we're talking about a character who requires dragoon levels of agility from other final fantasy characters that cannot fly in order to catch up to him.

Said foes he's fighting have equipment to resist death hax so this example doesn't work here, plus we literally see him in his own boss fights he uses the elemental spells like blizzard, firaga, and thunder. Why are we assuming he wouldn't go for the most basic final fantasy spells any mage worth a damn can use? Can you prove he doesn't use these despite the fact we see him use these moves in his own boss fight?

You can drive this point to the ground, it doesn't change the fact you're just blatantly ignoring the points I'm making where he literally goes for the kill against General Leo or used the statues against the Returners the moment they got near him in the Floating Continents. Kefka's psychotic, not moronic, otherwise he wouldn't have pulled off more than half of the stunts he did throughout FF6. It would only be a stomp if Kafka doesn't have any way shape or form to win, she has a wincon in this fight, difference is Kefka's chances of landing his is far higher than Kafka.

Once again, him flying isn't worth anything. I will make this as simple as possible.

They start 10 meters away
Kefka decides to fly, so he starts that, moving up a bit
Before he reaches 18 meters or 30 meters, Kafka notices and uses Spirit Whisper. His flight doesn't have any proof on the profile of buffing his speed, so he isn't moving faster than she reacts. The threads are merely a option, but frankly, she doesn't need them, nor does she need to jump after him.

If, for some reason, you want to continue arguing the flight issue, the burden of proof is on you to show HOW Kefka somehow flies out of Kafka's range before she does the very short action she needs in order to Mind Control him, with keeping in mind that Speed is equalized between the two of them.
The frame one magic argument is more compelling, to be blunt with you.

Every foe he faces that threatens him has this? Well, I'll concede then that it's not the best example.

You persistently claim I ignore your arguments, which is just blatantly wrong, but let's play along for now. I can technically say you're just blatantly ignoring the profile, if we want to go there. I don't particularly want to, so please stop making such false claims.

As for saying he's going all out in those situations, I'm starting to really question the general one, actually. He just summons a shadow, let's it fight for him, and then comes in to mock the general. Why didn't he just team up with his shadow and nuke the general from several miles above, the same way you argue he would do here? If his Shadow could tire the general out, surely double the attacks would have won the fight more effectively. But he didn't go for that optimal move.

Are you saying there's a chance Kefka doesn't go for magic immediately? Because that's the chance you've been arguing against this entire time. We both agree his magic nets him a win if he successfully uses it. But I believe he just won't use it immediately more times than not, and that Kafka will get her win.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I do hope you have been properly reading my arguments, as I think I made it clear that I bring up Death Manip as a point of comparison. Death Manip is a blatantly powerful ability that I imagine many of his enemies have been vulnerable to, yet he never starts off with it, even when he's genuinely going for the win. In the same vein, he has abilities Kafka would be vulnerable to, yet if he doesn't ever bust out something like Death Manip as his first move, is it not plausible to assume that he won't immediately go for, well, freezing her atoms and what not? It was just a way for me to explore his thought process in character.

Maybe instead of using death manipulation, something half the randos in FF6 have resistance to, use like, anything else.

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

@PlungingThroughTime And nothing about Imaginary energy remotely mentions that acrobatics is something that's granted to them as a result of being a Pathstrider. The force has that on its page at least with it being how the Jedis and Siths in general being able to do their insane movement. I don't see this for Kafka, just that she has a brief 2 second clip of fighting some random mooks in a club and another brief clip of fighting someone else.

I'm just bringing up that it's power and don't think the burden of proof is particularly weighty on someone being able to jump high, especially when Kafka is comparable to that character in strength and you should be using your strength to jump. Imaginary Energy gives power to the body, the body can jump higher. It seems fairly self-explanatory and I feel like the burden of proof you're wanting on this is unproportionally high to the actual feat being shown / that'd be done.

Regardless, I believe this matchup comes down to a quickdraw. Because speed is equalised, waving a hand covering less than a meter will always be faster than covering 10m or so. Kafka, in my opinion, will pull off spirit whisper if Kefka attempts to outrange.
If both sides come down to attacking, then it's likely incon through both sides being killed. If Kefka doesn't immediately use his one-shot magic, Kafka wins.

 

[Mbpoops]

@Mbpoops Neither of those clips shows Kafka having anything akin to these types of movements. So again I don't see how Kafka's gonna scale entire buildings here to catch up to someone like Kefka.

Her acrobatics definetly upscales from characters like the tb who are far weaker than her but idk why doing moves like the ones in ff matter when 1. None of those clips are against kefka (to my knowledge i see sephiroth and hes only in 7 from what i know) so how do we know kefka fights like that and 2. She can definetly jump as high as cloud did the as shown earlier that the tb can jump almost to the top of a probably mountain sized mecha

Have you payed attention to ANY of my posts or have you been skimming this thread? Because news flash, I've not remotely argued Death Hax as a wincon for Kefka, just Subjective Reality as the most basic thing FF magic can do being a wincon for him. Any of his spells period is Subjective reality based, AKA something Kafka's susceptible to and the most basic FF magic spells are able to durability negate with how they're described so again, please read the thread.

i asked earlier how the subject reality is activated

 

[DaReaperMan]

Oh, and I should add this: Kefka only doesn't cast magic when he's playing around. Standard Battle Assumptions, again, remove this even from being a possibility for him to be doing.

AKA, the entire argument that he won't lead with magic hinges on SBA not being assumed.

i asked earlier how the subject reality is activated

Thought-based.

 

[Mbpoops]

Oh, and I should add this: Kefka only doesn't cast magic when he's playing around. Standard Battle Assumptions, again, remove this even from being a possibility for him to be doing.

So hes ooc?

AKA, the entire argument that he won't lead with magic hinges on SBA not being assumed.

Thought-based.

Is there a showing of this?

 

[Theglassman12]

@TheKingStrategist13 Kefka buffing his speed isn't really relevant here when he's already more than fast enough to cross hundreds of meters in a split second. Can you provide evidence the spirit of whispers is some thought based or passive ability Kafka can use that can cross the distance in a split second? Because your argument revolves around this being a thing for her. Yeah the frame one magic is compelling, you also seem to forget I also mentioned he can spam magic while flying. He's doing both at the same time so Kafka would have to deal with getting hit with magic spells that can durability negate her while she tries to close the distance to make some hand gestures to get close enough to hit him.

You literally have been ignoring my arguments when you keep strawmanning my points by saying Death Hax is the wincon when I've not once in this entire thread said Death Hax is the wincon for Kefka.

Because General Leo is one of the more powerful soldiers in the Gestahl empire and can shrug off normal Final Fantasy magic, he needed him wounded from his fight with his Shadow clone so he can sneak him in the last second. Kafka doesn't have any innate resistances to Final Fantasy magic, so her fighting a shadow clone of Kefka that can use the same spells he can normally do is going to be an uphill battle for her.

@PlungingThroughTime Being comparable in strength doesn't automatically mean you have the same type of acrobatic skills. Yoda is comparable to Palpatine in the Prequels but the former has far superior acrobatic showings than the latter.

@Mbpoops Those characters Kefka has faced off in Dissidia, he faces them off numerous times and other folks in Final Fantasy can do these types of maneuverability and need these types of dragoon like movement to catch final fantasy characters that can fly. Kefka is one of said flying characters hence why I'm bringing up these clips since that's the standard for fighting against folks that fly in this franchise.

 

[DaReaperMan]

So hes ooc?

SBA does put some characters OOC, but for others it just gets them serious immediately. Some characters are borderline incapable of being serious.

Kefka is in the middle category, dire circumstances for him gets him serious and/or pisses him off.

Is there a showing of this?

is projecting one's inner mind onto reality

Copied right from the Joker's file

 

[Mbpoops]

SBA does put some characters OOC, but for others it just gets them serious immediately. Some characters are borderline incapable of being serious.

Kefka is in the middle category, dire circumstances for him gets him serious and/or pisses him off.

is projecting one's inner mind onto reality

Is the second link supposed to be timstamped? Because its not

Copied right from the Joker's file

He began to chant magic into the depths of the corridor

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

@PlungingThroughTime Being comparable in strength doesn't automatically mean you have the same type of acrobatic skills. Yoda is comparable to Palpatine in the Prequels but the former has far superior acrobatic showings than the latter.

Gonna 'um ackshually' you.

Form 4 is based around acrobatics, but it's particularly enhanced because of Yoda's small figure meaning he can jump around far easier and whatnot. That's why him moving like that is prevalent.
Meanwhile Palpatine has actually mastered all forms of lightsaber combat and is likely capable of similar acrobatics as Yoda, but it's just far less practical to do in a fight due to his larger frame.

See:



Anyway, when we're powerscaling, we're always assuming things like real world physics apply and whatnot. The same should go for leg strength converting into jump height. It's just common sense, really, especially under a UES verse where their bodies are empowered by their energy.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Mbpoops It's timestamped to where Palom talks about how magic in the series works, idk why it's not working for you.

@PlungingThroughTime You're making my point even clearer dude when Jedis have different forms of fighting and have superior agility despite the fact their strengths are relatviely comparable.

 

[Mbpoops]

@TheKingStrategist13 Kefka buffing his speed isn't really relevant here when he's already more than fast enough to cross hundreds of meters in a split second. Can you provide evidence the spirit of whispers is some thought based or passive ability Kafka can use that can cross the distance in a split second?

Because your argument revolves around this being a thing for her. Yeah the frame one magic is compelling, you also seem to forget I also mentioned he can spam magic while flying. He's doing both at the same time so Kafka would have to deal with getting hit with magic spells that can durability negate her while she tries to close the distance to make some hand gestures to get close enough to hit him.

Equalized speed

@Mbpoops Those characters Kefka has faced off in Dissidia, he faces them off numerous times and other folks in Final Fantasy can do these types of maneuverability and need these types of dragoon like movement to catch final fantasy characters that can fly. Kefka is one of said flying characters hence why I'm bringing up these clips since that's the standard for fighting against folks that fly in this franchise.

i mean ok i guess but he still has to dodge her spraying an smg what gets 21% faster mid spray

 

[Mbpoops]

@Mbpoops It's timestamped to where Palom talks about how magic in the series works, idk why it's not working for you.

Prolly mobilr let me hop on my pc

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Is the vote up to date btw

 

[Mbpoops]

Is the vote up to date btw

i believe so

 

[DaReaperMan]

Equalized speed

Another SBA thing, huh, almost like I'm listed as a knowledgeable member on the subject... well, technically, it's Versus Thread Rules, but close enough.

Abilities based on speed are assumed to be retained. Characters that can run over water via speed can, for example, still do so even if now technically too slow for that. Likewise, a character who can create a tornado by running fast in a circle can still create one in this manner, even though they are now running slower.

Kefka is MFTL normally, he can still pull the BS with flight he normally can, which means... yeah. He's fast as **** boi.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Mbpoops Equalized speed doesn't mean Kafka can just hop buildings around left and right to catch someone who can fly a great distance, and again, 21% speed increase isn't a significant buff. She's not speedblitzing with that alone.

@CastoriceTheFifth Yeah it's updated, 2 votes left for either characters unless anyone changed their votes.

 

[Mbpoops]

SBA does put some characters OOC, but for others it just gets them serious immediately. Some characters are borderline incapable of being serious.

Kefka is in the middle category, dire circumstances for him gets him serious and/or pisses him off.

is projecting one's inner mind onto reality

Copied right from the Joker's file

yea thought based magic seems fine but can you show kefka's though based subjective reality?

 

[DaReaperMan]

yea thought based magic seems fine but can you show kefka's though based subjective reality?

Magic is Subjective reality in Final Fantasy. Like in general.

 

[Theglassman12]

It's literally any spell he casts in any of his boss fights. He just casts a fire spell or a blizzard spell or a thunder spell and it just happens in a second or two. Why are you asking how Kefka does this when this is how FF magic operates?

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

@PlungingThroughTime You're making my point even clearer dude when Jedis have different forms of fighting and have superior agility despite the fact their strengths are relatviely comparable.

I just pointed out that with evidence, Palpatine is in the same ballpark of agility in both form 4 and his acrobatics, he just physically has a larger body, so more space to hit with a lightsaber. This means jumping around like Yoda isn't as practical for him, thus he doesn't do it.

Anyway, voting Kafka. I see her winning this more times than not.

Kefka tries to outrange? Kafka doesn't let him leave his range as she has a slight speed advantage (any speed advantage is enough to not let him leave her range) and hits him with spirit whisper (as he's in range), or a stray bullet hits him.
They both go to kill each other from the start? Tie. Assuming Kefka uses a one-shot. ALL of Kafka's stuff will one-shot or incapacitate here.

 

[Mbpoops]

Another SBA thing, huh, almost like I'm listed as a knowledgeable member on the subject... well, technically, it's Versus Thread Rules, but close enough.

Kefka is MFTL normally, he can still pull the BS with flight he normally can, which means... yeah. He's fast as **** boi.

@Mbpoops Equalized speed doesn't mean Kafka can just hop buildings around left and right to catch someone who can fly a great distance, and again, 21% speed increase isn't a significant buff. She's not speedblitzing with that alone.

thats not what im arguing im saying that since their speed is equalized kefka cant just fly away because kafka will match his speed. she doesnt need to speed blitz but she will have the advantage

 

[Mbpoops]

Magic is Subjective reality in Final Fantasy. Like in general.

It's literally any spell he casts in any of his boss fights. He just casts a fire spell or a blizzard spell or a thunder spell and it just happens in a second or two. Why are you asking how Kefka does this when this is how FF magic operates?

i mean the spells dont spawn instantly no? in the clip shown the fireball still traveled so i just wanted to see what it looked like when he casted his subjective reality

 

[DaReaperMan]

For the record, if Kafka actually does win the match, because a speed gap was a main argument it just can't be added.

thats not what im arguing im saying that since their speed is equalized kefka cant just fly away because kafka will match his speed. she doesnt need to speed blitz but she will have the advantage

No as in, Kefka flying is just as fast as it would be normally. For instance, if a character like Neo from the matrix is equalized to Average human, he can still dodge bullets in the same way he could before, even though he's not that speed. That means Kefka is basically teleporting here.

 

[Theglassman12]

Hold on why are we banking the speed advantage here when she needs to use the weapon 3 times in order to get the speed buff? Which by then he'd already have gotten his spell casted on her?

 

[Mbpoops]

For the record, if Kafka actually does win the match, because a speed gap was a main argument it just can't be added.

thats fine

No as in, Kefka flying is just as fast as it would be normally. For instance, if a character like Neo from the matrix is equalized to Average human, he can still dodge bullets in the same way he could before, even though he's not that speed. That means Kefka is basically teleporting here.

water running =/= dodging bullets

neo from the matrix cant dodge bullets that are faster than he can dodge so why would this matter at all?

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

Hold on why are we banking the speed advantage here when she needs to use the weapon 3 times in order to get the speed buff? Which by then he'd already have gotten his spell casted on her?

If it's literally shooting a gun, which will one-shot, then each bullet just likely counts as a separate attack depending on your interpretation. So he's not getting away, and even then, spirit whisper would catch him if she just jumped towards him and used it at the same time. Equal speed just means outranging isn't practical.

 

[DaReaperMan]

thats fine

water running =/= dodging bullets

neo from the matrix cant dodge bullets that are faster than he can dodge so why would this matter at all?

No, as in, he'd dodge them anyways. He can dodge bullets while not under speed equal, so he can dodge them while under speed equal no matter what.

That is what that rule is stating, that abilities based on speed are assumed to be retained, including ones normally possible, such as bullet dodging or speeding with flight.

 

[Mbpoops]

No, as in, he'd dodge them anyways. He can dodge bullets while not under speed equal, so he can dodge them while under speed equal no matter what.

That is what that rule is stating, that abilities based on speed are assumed to be retained, including ones normally possible, such as bullet dodging or speeding with flight.

Abilities based on speed are assumed to be retained. Characters that can run over water via speed can, for example, still do so even if now technically too slow for that. Likewise, a character who can create a tornado by running fast in a circle can still create one in this manner, even though they are now running slower.

none of this talks about the ability to dodge certain attacks tho? like if i can dodge swords but then i fight someone who is faster a uses a sword does that mean i still dodge the sword? do we not see the issue here? this is reaching NFL territory

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

Voting Kafka FRA