Kefka vs Kafka (9-7-1)

[Eseseso]

Man, I remember when Honkai was legit, heck I'm the one who came up with the idea for an Aeon Physiology page and did like 70% of the work on that page.

How the mighty fall, I guess

 

[Mbpoops]

Its just hsr

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

man that trailer's music is still legendary even after 3 years

Duuude... The segment everyone glazes has been around for 300 years.


Anyway, even if speed is equalised, don't speed amps still count? I'm not too knowledgeable on this.

So, I say this semi-sarcastically, relics should be counted in equipment, they give speed bonuses, so Kafka would have a slight advantage in speed.
Additionally Kafka's Light Cone gives a speed bonus after any attack, boosting speed 8%, which is definitely enough to hit first if things come down to a second attack.

If things come down to a quickdraw, Kafka should win?

 

[Theglassman12]

@Hypertornado099 You're ignoring the part where Kefka's magic is borderline warping reality itself given it can rewrite the natural order of the world among several other things, this isn't something Kafka herself resists and is far beyond normal temperature cooling, plus again what is the extent of her freezing status ailment because going off from the wiki it sounds more like encasing her in ice rather than actually warping her electrons to freeze into a frozen statue a la Sub Zero from Mortal Kombat.

@TheKingStrategist13 You keep hyping up the AOE mind manipulation when it caps at tens of meters at best, something Kefka can easily get out of due to the piss poor range and can spam magic from greater distances than that, added benefit that he's able to fly so he can just float away from her range to just attack her. The entire crux of this argument is assuming Kefka just doesn't do the range spamming magic stuff he's shown doing in several games, and plus his shadow clone can do the same kind of magic like the elemental stuff and status ailments.

@Eseseso Final fantasy magic can also hit several targets at once so he has the same applications here with any of his normal spells.

 

[Kinggg121132]

Kafka FRA wins because her Galaxy-level attack power is so overwhelmingly higher than Base Kefka's Brown Dwarf-level durability that she instantly vaporizes him with a single bullet or sword strike before any of the hax spells goes off.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Kafka FRA wins because her Galaxy-level attack power is so overwhelmingly higher than Base Kefka's Brown Dwarf-level durability that she instantly vaporizes him with a single bullet or sword strike before any of the hax spells goes off.

I'm gonna be dead straight with you, at ten meters away, Kefka can move ten meters by the time Kafka gets her bullet to him, let alone runs into melee herself.

 

[Mbpoops]

I'm gonna be dead straight with you, at ten meters away, Kefka can move ten meters by the time Kafka gets her bullet to him, let alone runs into melee herself.

Her bullets have hundreds of meters

 

[Kinggg121132]

I'm gonna be dead straight with you, at ten meters away, Kefka can move ten meters by the time Kafka gets her bullet to him, let alone runs into melee herself.

Speed's equal, so he doesn't move faster than her no? Also she doesn't need to shoot or run, she just talks, and her mind-control voice hits him before he does anything crazy no.

 

[Kinggg121132]

Her bullets have hundreds of meters

yeah so even if first bullet dodges whats stopping her from spamming it

 

[Mbpoops]

yeah so even if first bullet dodges whats stopping her from spamming it

Turn based combat

 

[DaReaperMan]

Her bullets have hundreds of meters

And he can move ******' half a meter in any direction and it'll whistle by like it's got a soda to buy.

Ranged weapons suck in speed equal unless you can either lead your shot or it's just faster than you.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Speed's equal, so he doesn't move faster than her no? Also she doesn't need to shoot or run, she just talks, and her mind-control voice hits him before he does anything crazy no.

If she uses it. If she's in combat, to my knowledge she's using strings.

yeah so even if first bullet dodges whats stopping her from spamming it

Him moving another half a meter in any direction. Made more bothersome by the fact his fighting style has him constantly moving and being erratic. Hitting him is gonna be like trying to swat a fly with a broken arm

 

[Mbpoops]

And he can move ******' half a meter in any direction and it'll whistle by like it's got a soda to buy.

Ranged weapons suck in speed equal unless you can either lead your shot or it's just faster than you.

She has speed amps tho and it was hundreds of kilometers mb

 

[DaReaperMan]

She has speed amps tho

Not ones anywhere near good enough to hit Kefka at anything except point blank.

and it was hundreds of kilometers mb

Either way my point stands

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

@TheKingStrategist13 You keep hyping up the AOE mind manipulation when it caps at tens of meters at best, something Kefka can easily get out of due to the piss poor range and can spam magic from greater distances than that, added benefit that he's able to fly so he can just float away from her range to just attack her. The entire crux of this argument is assuming Kefka just doesn't do the range spamming magic stuff he's shown doing in several games, and plus his shadow clone can do the same kind of magic like the elemental stuff and status ailments.

They're speed equal, so he can't necessarily outrun her nor act before she can react, and if she notices him beginning to go into the air, she would just realize he's trying to get away and use her whisper. Since they start 10 meters apart, and her ability, at WORST, is roughly 20 meters in range, and may be 30, that means that Kafka immediately starts the fight in Spirit Whisper range, so unless he can somehow blitz Kafka's reaction, he will be in danger of her whisper, making the flight a moot point unless he gets out of range already.

You are correct that my argument partially stems from him not doing certain things at the very start of the fight. But that's because, while you treat it as some supposedly inconceivable notion, evidence has been provided time and time again that Kefka is blatantly susceptible to not giving fights his all, even at times that he realistically should. The only time, as far as I can see, that he actually tries, is when he is enraged, as according to his profile.
I just think it's more likely for him to sell the fight than it is to do any of the things he needs to in order to actually win, since he is consistently shown underestimating enemies, goofing around, and otherwise not starting fights with any of his best win condition's. Kafka, on the other hand, is NOTORIOUS for blatantly abusing her mind manip as one of her favorite moves. Unless Kefka, frame one, decides to cast instant death on her for example, she's probably just going to activate her ability and catch him in her web of control.

Again- If he did use certain abilities as his very first move, he would have a very decent chance of winning. But evidence suggests Kefka doesn't like to end his fights immediately, nor does he necessarily care to open with his best move. You do have scans showing him attacking from a range, but there have been a similar number of presented fights where he doesn't go for any such options immediately.

 

[Theglassman12]

Outrunning isn't the argument I'm making, it's outranging Kafka and again, him getting hundreds of meters away at bare minimum is enough for him to just escape the Whisper, especially when their starting distance is 10 meters away, which is very close to the extent of Kafka's range.

You keep saying Kefka doesn't give his all yet the entire Esper massacre and his fight with Leo says otherwise. The people he underestimates he quite literally had no knowledge on, such as the Returners who he had no idea had access to any forms of magicite/magic that they're capable of, hence him being overconfident. Him using the shadow clones against Leo and the second time they had a full on encounter during the Floating Continent he immediately used the statues of the goddesses to incapacitate the crew shows he will not goof off when it comes to people he has full knowledge. Kafka abusing her mind hax doesn't mean much if it can be out ranged in the first place, your entire argument hinges on the fact that Kefka just doesn't immediately fly away from her and start spamming magic to play the safe game.

Any abilities, not just certain abilities is more than enough to end Kafka since she doesn't resist the basic application of final fantasy magic. Again this still boils down to whether or not the characters land one hit at each other, Kefka's far greater maneuverability and prior knowledge just makes this much higher for him to land his wincon than Kafka who can't fly and her range is not good.

 

[Mbpoops]

Arent kilometers farther than meters

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

Outrunning isn't the argument I'm making, it's outranging Kafka and again, him getting hundreds of meters away at bare minimum is enough for him to just escape the Whisper, especially when their starting distance is 10 meters away, which is very close to the extent of Kafka's range.

With all respect to your opinion, like you mention, the starting distance is 10 meters away. All that needs to happen is a single bullet hit Kefka thanks to the discrepancy in general stats between the parties. It is incredibly easy to spray with an SMG, aiming is not needed here, and Kafka with every attack gains an 8% speed boost, stacking 3 times up to 24%. That's a somewhat considerable difference in speed.

That depends on what you class as 'an attack' - I don't think each bullet being a seperate attack is a reach.

Each bullet would definitely one-shot Kefka, her attacks apply Erode, which is a DoT damaging effect.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Outrunning isn't the argument I'm making, it's outranging Kafka and again, him getting hundreds of meters away at bare minimum is enough for him to just escape the Whisper, especially when their starting distance is 10 meters away, which is very close to the extent of Kafka's range.

You keep saying Kefka doesn't give his all yet the entire Esper massacre and his fight with Leo says otherwise. The people he underestimates he quite literally had no knowledge on, such as the Returners who he had no idea had access to any forms of magicite/magic that they're capable of, hence him being overconfident. Him using the shadow clones against Leo and the second time they had a full on encounter during the Floating Continent he immediately used the statues of the goddesses to incapacitate the crew shows he will not goof off when it comes to people he has full knowledge. Kafka abusing her mind hax doesn't mean much if it can be out ranged in the first place, your entire argument hinges on the fact that Kefka just doesn't immediately fly away from her and start spamming magic to play the safe game.

Any abilities, not just certain abilities is more than enough to end Kafka since she doesn't resist the basic application of final fantasy magic. Again this still boils down to whether or not the characters land one hit at each other, Kefka's far greater maneuverability and prior knowledge just makes this much higher for him to land his wincon than Kafka who can't fly and her range is not good.

In order to outrange, he will have to outrun her. It's not like him having flight is a instant free get away card- The moment he goes for it, she'll see, hey, he's going for his flight- Which mind you, she is also aware of his abilities as per OP- And then she'll just use her ability before he get's out of range. Again, they're equal speed, so he cannot reasonably be expected to easily pull this off before she acts. She would be well aware that at a certain range her ability won't work, and your argument hinges on her just... Letting him get far enough to negate one of her best advantages? The advantage she is known to consistently abuse? He's not outranging her because she's not letting him get that far in the first place. You would genuinely be better off arguing that he goes for a frame one attack over trying to get out of her range.

Even still, in every single example brought up in this thread, Kefka seems to never lead with any of his best wincon's, such as death manip. And it's still something very explicitly stated in the profile, and there are blatant examples of him just holding back at blatantly poor times against potent opponents. But sure, let's say for once, he does decide to try genuinely, he wants to win this fight.
If he tries to get out of range, she's not just letting that happen, he's getting Mind Haxed before he can get too far. His only valid strategy is going for an magic attack. Even then though, if she avoids the first attack and activates her whisper, it's over for him. Unless he can make attacks she can blatantly not avoid, all she has to do is keep close enough to him that she can activate her whisper, and even if he is somehow about to get out of range, she can abuse her threads and their hundreds of meter's range to limit his movement in a certain direction, since the threads share her one-shot AP, meaning he would have to avoid them. And she can also sprinkle in bullets into her attack's, as was mentioned before. It may not seem like much, but when you're having to deal with threads blocking your best escape routes, bullets flying at you, and anywhere from a 20-30 meter radius around your opponent where if you enter it, you essentially lose, and then the fact you start INSIDE THAT INSTANT LOSS RANGE mind you, there's a sizable chance that Kefka is going to get Spirit Whispered, either before he can do much of anything, or perhaps after he does try a attack or two. Even if he does "try", he likely will only try something that can work, not something guaranteed to, given I don't see any instance of him actively using any of his best wincons against an enemy as his first move.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Her SMG is still shit in speed equal. If it's not 10x faster than her, then Kefka could literally do the griddy and dodge it.

 

[Theglassman12]

@PlungingThroughTime The speed amps you’re referring to isn’t big enough for a 10X gap, that’s a small gap at best which going off your numbers would only make Kafka 1.24 times faster. Not speed blitz worthy if you ask me.

@TheKingStrategist13 By the time she considers using her abilities he’s already out of her range because he’s already close to the edge of her range at the start of the fight. Again this goes both ways with the prior knowledge on their powers. You’re acting like the threads is something she does passively when she needs gestures to even do the Whisper in the first place, which isn’t fast enough to catch someone who’s already at the furthest ends of her reach and can fly, giving him far better maneuvering than she has.

Death Manipulation isn’t relevant here because any of his spells is Subjective reality based, something Kafka doesn’t resist at all so anything he does is an instant kill. Also avoid the attack? Explain how she avoids her electrons being warped by being slown down to the point of being frozen into a statue and shattering into pieces? That’s not something you can dodge when basic blizzard and fire magic affects your body at a subatomic level.

 

[Nonynho]

Kefka will turn Kafka into a Kafta, FRA

 

[Mbpoops]

Her SMG is still shit in speed equal. If it's not 10x faster than her, then Kefka could literally do the griddy and dodge it.

Why would it being equal speed matter? The bullets are for sure not equal speed and even then they get 21% faster after 3 bullets which im not sure he can adapt fast enough for that

 

[Mbpoops]

@PlungingThroughTime The speed amps you’re referring to isn’t big enough for a 10X gap, that’s a small gap at best which going off your numbers would only make Kafka 1.24 times faster. Not speed blitz worthy if you ask me.

Kafka gets 21% faster so he cant outrun her and i dont know if he can adapt to the speed change fast enough

@TheKingStrategist13 By the time she considers using her abilities he’s already out of her range because he’s already close to the edge of her range at the start of the fight. Again this goes both ways with the prior knowledge on their powers. You’re acting like the threads is something she does passively when she needs gestures to even do the Whisper in the first place, which isn’t fast enough to catch someone who’s already at the furthest ends of her reach and can fly, giving him far better maneuvering than she has.

? If the start at 10 meters and kafka has at least 100km of range then how is he already out of her range?

Death Manipulation isn’t relevant here because any of his spells is Subjective reality based, something Kafka doesn’t resist at all so anything he does is an instant kill. Also avoid the attack? Explain how she avoids her electrons being warped by being slown down to the point of being frozen into a statue and shattering into pieces? That’s not something you can dodge when basic blizzard and fire magic affects your body at a subatomic level.

How does this subjective reality activate?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Why would it being equal speed matter? The bullets are for sure not equal speed and even then they get 21% faster after 3 bullets which im not sure he can adapt fast enough for that

Oh damn, it crosses ten meters 21% faster, now Kefka can only move EIGHT meters in the time it takes them to get to him instead of TEN! Shit, that'll be so hard for him to move to the left or right for!

If the sarcasm wasn't obvious, this changes literally nothing. Like I said, at minimum you want a 10x gap to pull this with.

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

@PlungingThroughTime The speed amps you’re referring to isn’t big enough for a 10X gap, that’s a small gap at best which going off your numbers would only make Kafka 1.24 times faster. Not speed blitz worthy if you ask me.

Never said blitz. Just an advantage. Can you constantly evade and focus on gaining distance while having a speed disadvantage?

Also I'm just trying to point out that the bullets likely wouldn't be a constant led stream of easy to dodge bullets. Kafka knows a single hit would likely one-shot, I imagine she'd be spraying, not giving easy to dodge shots.
Kafka's shots against Fu Xuan ricochet in an area around her, if things are in a city then there will be more objects for the bullets to bounce off of.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

@TheKingStrategist13 By the time she considers using her abilities he’s already out of her range because he’s already close to the edge of her range at the start of the fight. Again this goes both ways with the prior knowledge on their powers. You’re acting like the threads is something she does passively when she needs gestures to even do the Whisper in the first place, which isn’t fast enough to catch someone who’s already at the furthest ends of her reach and can fly, giving him far better maneuvering than she has.

Death Manipulation isn’t relevant here because any of his spells is Subjective reality based, something Kafka doesn’t resist at all so anything he does is an instant kill. Also avoid the attack? Explain how she avoids her electrons being warped by being slown down to the point of being frozen into a statue and shattering into pieces? That’s not something you can dodge when basic blizzard and fire magic affects your body at a subatomic level.

10 meters is at a low-ball roughly a little over half her spirit whispers range, and if we be generous to Kafka, it's a third of her range. Are you assuming that Kefka is somehow acting before Kafka does? Otherwise, say he gets out of range before she considers what to do doesn't make a lot of sense. But then I have to wonder what source you have that shows Kefka will be able to act before she does, given speed is equalized. If we are generous it becomes a 50/50, but more than likely, she'll decide on spirit whisper before he escapes her range.

You're exaggerating. He's hardly at the edge of her reach, and while he can fly, it doesn't make him faster than her, just grants him better manuverability and the chance to fly too high for her, assuming she lets him. She does need to move her hands for the threads, but it doesn't take that much time, and it's not like she's planted in place while doing it.

Are you saying his spell automatically, regardless of anything, forcefully turns the enemy into ice, ignores their resistances due to the reality shenanigans, and is blatantly undodgable?
Either way, the fact he hasn't used death manip at the start of any of his fights is a clear sign that even when "serious" he isn't particularly keen on ending the fight immediately. Are you sure he's 100% going to go for that at the very start of the fight?

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Kafka knows a single hit would likely one-shot, I imagine she'd be spraying, not giving easy to dodge shots.

Slight correction, neither side is actually aware of the others stats, which is even worse for Kefka. Both know he has one shots, so while Kafka might feel desperate, if he DID somehow get out of her spirit whisper range, he could easily fall to compliancy and accidentally get hit by a one shot thread or bullet

 

[DaReaperMan]

I still haven't seen a lick of proof that Kafka actually uses Spirit Whisper in combat, BTW. It's always her threads.

 

[Mbpoops]

I still haven't seen a lick of proof that Kafka actually uses Spirit Whisper in combat, BTW. It's always her threads.

Spirit whisper is with the threads i sent it earlier

 

[DaReaperMan]

Spirit whisper is with the threads i sent it earlier

So she lands a hit on the target first.

She is 3-C, Kefka is High 5-A. Why are we mentioning Spirit Whisper as if it's hax is the legitimate problem here

 

[Theglassman12]

@TheKingStrategist13 So still close enough that Kefka can fly away from the range. Her running up to Kefka doesn’t mean much if he can move vertically, making it even harder for her to attack.

It being faster isn’t the point, it’s the fact he can just get away from her in general and spam from a distance. Unless she’s capable of catching someone who can fly several hundred meters away and spam magic from a distance, the chances of her landing her hit is far lesser than Kefka’s.

That’s how final fantasy magic works in lore yeah. Also again why do you keep saying death hax like that’s relevant here? Can you address the arguments I’ve been making and not make strawmans? And yes knowing what Kefka does in the story, he will try to end the fight if he knows the person he’s facing is a threat. I’ve literally mentioned General Leo and the Returners as examples in this thread on how he’d willingly use the stuff to win against people he knows are threats and you keep ignoring them for a standard weakness for Kefka that isn’t applicable here.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Also, Honkai peeps, just so you know...

The entire "Kefka won't take this seriously!" argument is killed by Standard Battle Assumptions. Kefka considers this to be dire. He's going to not be ******* around.

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

@TheKingStrategist13 So still close enough that Kefka can fly away from the range. Her running up to Kefka doesn’t mean much if he can move vertically, making it even harder for her to attack.

Couldn't Kafka just jump after Kefka to keep him in range? Not sure if LS would count for jump height or be a component of its speed, but I see Kafka being able to keep Kefka in range for long enough to use Spirit Whisper. It is a city after all.

Given both sides know what the other's abilities are, and Kafka isn't exactly stupid, she'd know keeping Kefka in range is her wincon and wouldn't let him simply get away.
If Kefka's win is instantly flying up, then casting, Kafka could just jump after him and use spirit whisper.
Potentially at the same time, too, given Spirit Whisper requires hands.

I don't think Kafka would simply let Kefka get away and hand him a free win.

 

[Theglassman12]

Her running to try and play catch up would give Kefka more than enough time to imagine her being burned alive or frozen still with his magic and casting the spell. Plus her acrobatics/agility doesn’t look comparable to any final fantasy characters, who’ve all shown to leap around skyscrapers no problem. You’re gonna need to show she can do something akin to a Dragoon in FF for her to catch up to Kefka like this if he flies way too high for her.

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

Her running to try and play catch up would give Kefka more than enough time to imagine her being burned alive or frozen still with his magic and casting the spell. Plus her acrobatics/agility doesn’t look comparable to any final fantasy characters, who’ve all shown to leap around skyscrapers no problem. You’re gonna need to show she can do something akin to a Dragoon in FF for her to catch up to Kefka like this if he flies way too high for her.

She doesn't have any parkour scenes but she's certainly stronger than Arc City Kiana who can climb whole buildings in seconds.
Also, jumping should come off of strength or LS, no? Why does that need showing?

 

[DaReaperMan]

She doesn't have any parkour scenes but she's certainly stronger than Arc City Kiana who can climb whole buildings in seconds.
Also, jumping should come off of strength or LS, no? Why does that need showing?

Because the majority of the time people with stupid high LS/AP can't jump that high. Case in point, Mario Mario.

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

Because the majority of the time people with stupid high LS/AP can't jump that high. Case in point, Mario Mario.

That's a surprise the wiki doesn't deal with that lmao.



Anyway, here's the Trailblazer, significantly weaker than Kafka, jumping from a mech's arm all the way up to its shoulder. Pretty significant size. Kafka should be capable of doing stuff like this at the least.

 

[Mbpoops]

More acrobatic kafka moments

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

For reference the person she's fighting is Feixiao who can do this.



She can definitely jump high enough lol.