Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

[Remus1998]

Then's there's also Tails' statement (AFTER RESEARCH mind you) that the TE affected ALL space-time

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

To be honest I highly disagree with so much stuff on our Sonic profiles its not even funny :/

I mean, it's fine to be wrong lmao. Weren't YOU the one trying to do higher-D scaling for the Sonic verse lmao???? What is this switch-up?

Metal Sonic is easily faster than Hypersonic like what?? Pulling numbers out of nowhere.

 

[TheStinkeer]

I've seen your rebunk

And it's also why I posted that erasure scan regarding the Time Eater

OH COOL

Then's there's also Tails' statement (AFTER RESEARCH mind you) that the TE affected ALL space-time

That's true, I've always neglected to mention it since SXSG's (im being very subtle about how unnecessary it was it was NOT needed i swear. yummy angel island yum yum in my tum tum subtle) rewrite and it being a youtube video. Though, given I mention other pre-SXSG evidence including other youtube interviews I was lowk being a hypocrite lmao

 

[TMaakkonen]

Modern VS is super dumb, so in casual sense, I dont mind thinking Cell can defeat Metal.

Big issue is basic functionality. Sonic is not a consistent verse, so trying to powerscale it is technically uncertain. Maybe Super Neo doesnt fully scale to Solaris and Time Eater etc. Cell's scaling is based on more fundamentally working Ki. Anything that is usually accepted here is actually a bit lenient if one were to find cracks in sacling. So being suspicious of Metal's scaling is fine. Sure, this essentially means that using maximum lowballing, Cell has valid planet busting scaling via Ki whereas Metal has no feats or "valid" scaling to get planetary feats, and sure this does ignore most of Metal's argument "unfairly", but Sonic scaling is not as clear as DBZ so I dont think this line of thinking is too wrong.

With that said, looking at how powerscaling in general is, Metal's stats that were given in DB are fine. Lowkey annoying they use a feat that affected multiple universes and timelines and calced it by... using observable radius of a single universe. Hmmmmm

 

[Alexander]

My first introduction to the Sonic powerscaling community.
Was a video in spanish about Sonic, and i didn't understand shit that much since i was very young, but i kinda understanded something like "Sonic beat Emerl, a being that used the power of stars" or "Sonic defeated Time Eater, a being who eats time itself".

 

[AyOgUyS]

I mean, it's fine to be wrong lmao. Weren't YOU the one trying to do higher-D scaling for the Sonic verse lmao???? What is this switch-up?

Yes, I was the one working on Tier 1 and Immeasurable base Sonic characters. Though tbh I've been really thinking lately and I just really don't think our current profiles are all that accurate (especially some of the Chaos Emerald hax maybe I'm just stupid but I've like read the blogs and I just don't see the logic, dunno might just be a me problem)

Metal Sonic is easily faster than Hypersonic like what?? Pulling numbers out of nowhere.

I mean yeah I think he's like MHS+ in base, I don't think FTL base cast is all that consistent.

 

[TheStinkeer]

I mean yeah I think he's like MHS+ in base, I don't think FTL base cast is all that consistent.

There's plenty of feats to back it up, including some that aren't here. We have the obvious laser dodging and outspeeding, there's statements, there's lightspeed dash feats outside of Unleashed, there's supporting feats like the Egg Mobile in Superstars and Advance 1, lightspeed reactions with Shadow, we have Cyan Laser feats in Colors DS (& Frigates) as well as Sonic being faster than cars that travel at 50% of the Cyan Laser's speed in Crossworlds, etc. And there's the feats far above FTL (Master Core: ABIS spinning galaxies with his black hole as well as the Astral Babylon performing FTL travel with the power of the ARKS before they made a black hole, with ABIS using those gravitational powers for example) and some supportive feats where Base Sonic can run from attacks from Super tier enemies.

 

[AyOgUyS]

We have the obvious laser dodging and outspeeding

Sure but do those lasers even showcase realistic properties of light like reflecting off reflective materials?

there's statements

I really don't think we should use statements for Sonic's speed considering how nonsensical and contradictory they are.

there's supporting feats like the Egg Mobile in Superstars and Advance 1

Yes the Egg Mobile flies to space but it never crosses galactic distances at all, the nebulae are literally just there in the background to represent outer space.

lightspeed reactions with Shadow

The lightspeed circuit stuff? I don't think that's consistent when the base cast needs amps like the Lightspeed Dash or Lightspeed Shoes to achieve lightspeed.

we have Cyan Laser feats in Colors DS (& Frigates)

Idk about Frigates but didn't Sonic only outrun the Cyan Wisp? Not the actual Cyan Laser attack?

as well as Sonic being faster than cars that travel at 50% of the Cyan Laser's speed in Crossworlds, etc.

Huh. Never heard of that before.

Master Core: ABIS spinning galaxies with his black hole as well

Yes, that in of itself is a MFTL feat, I just don't see how Master Core: ABIS' travel speed or anybody else would scale. Just because it flies with the same gravitational powers doesn't mean it achieves the same speeds, said gravitational powers aren't an UES and we don't even know how much of said power is being channeled into its flight anyway.

as the Astral Babylon performing FTL travel with the power of the ARKS before they made a black hole

Ok.

some supportive feats where Base Sonic can run from attacks from Super tier enemies.

He outruns random blasts from the Time Eater that are obviously not the universe-crossing blast and aren't even travelling particularly fast. Yes, he is able to outrun the slow-moving Titans but even then he doesn't stand a chance and needs Super Sonic to keep up.

 

[Snek]

Sure but do those lasers even showcase realistic properties of light like reflecting off reflective materials?

Idk about Frigates but didn't Sonic only outrun the Cyan Wisp? Not the actual Cyan Laser attack?

In his second fight with Surge she fires a Cyan Wisp laser at Sonic and he deflects it with a shard of glass.

 

[Snek]

https://grabber.zone/wp-content/uploads/WP-manga/data/manga_6388809b6d8bc/47bb4f5a3161fdeee41e311ab088c04e/00014.jpeg

 

[LukeChaosBlobz]

Pretty sure Metal Sonic also travels from Little Planet to Earth pretty quickly and can multiply his speed by 4 with V.MOA, which Sonic can consistently avoid.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Pretty sure Metal Sonic also travels from Little Planet to Earth pretty quickly and can multiply his speed by 4 with V.MOA, which Sonic can consistently avoid.

The interplanetary space feat from Metal in Sonic 4 is only MHS tho to my knowledge

 

[AyOgUyS]

In his second fight with Surge she fires a Cyan Wisp laser at Sonic and he deflects it with a shard of glass.

Ah, I see. Are there other FTL feats?

 

[TheStinkeer]

Sure but do those lasers even showcase realistic properties of light like reflecting off reflective materials?

Yes, games like Chaotix and Blast show this. Hotaro lasers even come from a lamp and are shown very realistically in the ending cutscene. My perspective on laser feats is that if there's enough supporting feats, lasers should be treated like bullets, assume they're as fast as it usually is

Yes the Egg Mobile flies to space but it never crosses galactic distances at all, the nebulae are literally just there in the background to represent outer space.

I never even mentioned the nebula feat and was just talking about the time it flew to the moon, but looking at the Advance 3 feat, it's a valid take as it's portrayed so differently from space in both the advance games and the Sonic franchise as a whole.

Idk about Frigates but didn't Sonic only outrun the Cyan Wisp? Not the actual Cyan Laser attack?

Sonic Colors DS HEAVILY implies the Cyan Wisp was performing a Cyan Laser, it's stated it was shining, super fast, and made Sonic question if it was a wisp. Not only this, SOnic states "I may be as quick as him, but I can play it cool when need too" after experiencing Cyan Laser for himself. And finally, Sonic can dodge and outspeed cyan laser attacks from the Nega Wisp Armor in the DS version. Unless Sonic Team decides to do a bad rewrite for zero reason even after all the criticism (I wonder if Sonic will eat the interstellar amusement park this time while telling all old fans to screw themselves) this is a pretty valid feat imo

Yes, that in of itself is a MFTL feat, I just don't see how Master Core: ABIS' travel speed or anybody else would scale. Just because it flies with the same gravitational powers doesn't mean it achieves the same speeds, said gravitational powers aren't an UES and we don't even know how much of said power is being channeled into its flight anyway.

I'm actually not even referring to the flight, I'm referring to ABIS using gravitational powers on the meteors and gravity dive. The ARKS seemingly use black holes to utilize their gravitational powers as stated by Tails.

He outruns random blasts from the Time Eater that are obviously not the universe-crossing blast and aren't even travelling particularly fast. Yes, he is able to outrun the slow-moving Titans but even then he doesn't stand a chance and needs Super Sonic to keep up.

The Time Eater uses a similar charge for his random darkness balls that he uses to prepare his consumption. Plus, the consumption was done by an incomplete Time Eater. Titans like Wyvern were quite literally enraged, and Sonic even had to scale each of them to get the Chaos Emerald. I'm not saying Sonic scales in AP or even in full in speed, but that's why I said it was supporting.

I really don't think we should use statements for Sonic's speed considering how nonsensical and contradictory they are.

The statements are backed up, though. I don't see a problem with them.

 

[Snek]

Ah, I see. Are there other FTL feats?

As direct as you'd like them. Probably the outrunning black hole feats from Sonic Shuffle and Sonic Colors which should be FTL. Although even if they aren't they're probably relativistic at minimum.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Yes, games like Chaotix and Blast show this. Hotaro lasers even come from a lamp and are shown very realistically in the ending cutscene. My perspective on laser feats is that if there's enough supporting feats, lasers should be treated like bullets, assume they're as fast as it usually is

I never even mentioned the nebula feat and was just talking about the time it flew to the moon

Isn't that only Relativistic rather than FTL?

Sonic Colors DS HEAVILY implies the Cyan Wisp was performing a Cyan Laser, it's stated it was shining, super fast, and made Sonic question if it was a wisp. Not only this, SOnic states "I may be as quick as him, but I can play it cool when need too" after experiencing Cyan Laser for himself. And finally, Sonic can dodge and outspeed cyan laser attacks from the Nega Wisp Armor in the DS version. Unless Sonic Team decides to do a bad rewrite for zero reason even after all the criticism (I wonder if Sonic will eat the interstellar amusement park this time while telling all old fans to screw themselves) this is a pretty valid feat imo

I'm actually not even referring to the flight, I'm referring to ABIS using gravitational powers on the meteors and gravity dive. The ARKS seemingly use black holes to utilize their gravitational powers as stated by Tails.

There's still the problem that we don't know if the same level of power used for the MFTL galaxy spinning stuff is also used for other things, I don't believe ABIS' gravitational powers are an UES

The Time Eater uses a similar charge for his random darkness balls that he uses to prepare his consumption. Plus, the consumption was done by an incomplete Time Eater.

Sure, they're similar but I still don't see a reason to scale every attack of the Time Eater to its universe-spanning blast. The Completed Time Eater doesn't have any indication that every single one of its attacks is faster than its Incomplete Self's universal destruction either.

Titans like Wyvern were quite literally enraged, and Sonic even had to scale each of them to get the Chaos Emerald. I'm not saying Sonic scales in AP or even in full in speed, but that's why I said it was supporting.

The statements are backed up, though. I don't see a problem with them.

 

[AyOgUyS]

As direct as you'd like them. Probably the outrunning black hole feats from Sonic Shuffle and Sonic Colors which should be FTL. Although even if they aren't they're probably relativistic at minimum.

Outrunning a black hole is only FTL while you're past the event horizon.

 

[TheStinkeer]

Isn't that only Relativistic rather than FTL?

That's why I brought it up in the same vein as Superstars, a supporting feat.

There's still the problem that we don't know if the same level of power used for the MFTL galaxy spinning stuff is also used for other things, I don't believe ABIS' gravitational powers are an UES

I don't see why they wouldn't, especially seeing ABIS is a rampaging monster at this point. Gravity Dive even has him connect himself and there's a big black hole thing down the track. So combine that with him sustaining the black hole, the ARKs enabling warp drive of the Astral Babylon before a black hole was created, and so on.

Sure, they're similar but I still don't see a reason to scale every attack of the Time Eater to its universe-spanning blast. The Completed Time Eater doesn't have any indication that every single one of its attacks is faster than its Incomplete Self's universal destruction either.

The Complete Time Eater is still, well, complete. It should still be generally far superior than his incomplete self, plus it can tag Super Sonic with its attacks. It'd be a better point to say Eggman was "softening Sonic up" but that's also why it's a supporting thing

Outrunning a black hole is only FTL while you're past the event horizon.

I actually don't know if outrunning a black hole is FTL at all or not, but Sonic ends up pretty close to the black holes each time, plus Colors DS has him boost out of one even when he takes damage and ends up at the center.

 

[TheStinkeer]

I actually don't know if outrunning a black hole is FTL at all or not, but Sonic ends up pretty close to the black holes each time, plus Colors DS has him boost out of one even when he takes damage and ends up at the center.

Also the Wisps without any powers like laser, whom Sonic 100% upscales, fly out of the black hole at the end and also fly up to space in a short time period as a neat little bonus. I think the big problem was the expansion of the black hole

 

[AyOgUyS]

That's why I brought it up in the same vein as Superstars, a supporting feat.

I don't see why they wouldn't, especially seeing ABIS is a rampaging monster at this point. Gravity Dive even has him connect himself and there's a big black hole thing down the track. So combine that with him sustaining the black hole, the ARKs enabling warp drive of the Astral Babylon before a black hole was created, and so on.

Agree to disagree ig

The Complete Time Eater is still, well, complete. It should still be generally far superior than his incomplete self, plus it can tag Super Sonic with its attacks. It'd be a better point to say Eggman was "softening Sonic up" but that's also why it's a supporting thing

I guess :/

I actually don't know if outrunning a black hole is FTL at all or not, but Sonic ends up pretty close to the black holes each time, plus Colors DS has him boost out of one even when he takes damage and ends up at the center.

Still, neither the Colors or Shuffle black holes are particularly realistically portrayed, especially the Colors one which isn't even an actual black hole but rather an expanding ball of Wisp energy.

 

[TheStinkeer]

Still, neither the Colors or Shuffle black holes are particularly realistically portrayed, especially the Colors one which isn't even an actual black hole but rather an expanding ball of Wisp energy.

Wisp black holes are stated to bend space and time in Team Sonic Racing, the Encyclospeedia also mentions the big black hole had an event horizon.

Plus Shuffle takes place in a space-esque environment where dreams and reality intersect, I don't see why it wouldn't be a real black hole

 

[AyOgUyS]

Wisp black holes are stated to bend space and time in Team Sonic Racing, the Encyclospeedia also mentions the big black hole had an event horizon.

Yes but the black hole also expands and releases like purple energy which is just a blatant indication that it isn't like a real black hole. Bending space-time could just be a property of Wisp energy and being stated to be a black hole isn't enough according to our standards iirc.

Plus Shuffle takes place in a space-esque environment where dreams and reality intersect, I don't see why it wouldn't be a real black hole

Does it showcase any realistic properties of black holes?

Now that I think about it, Sonic has quite a lot of statements of him being faster than ever before. Could we extend that to his Peel Out? What I mean is: let's say Sonic is Mach 1 in base and Mach 4 with the Peel Out. If in the next game he's said to be faster than ever before could we say he's now Mach 4 in base?

 

[TheStinkeer]

Yes but the black hole also expands and releases like purple energy which is just a blatant indication that it isn't like a real black hole. Bending space-time could just be a property of Wisp energy and being stated to be a black hole isn't enough according to our standards iirc.

I mean if that's your perspective, but I feel like bending space and time, having an event horizon, and being stated to be a black hole is sufficient enough.

Does it showcase any realistic properties of black holes?

I mean there's no contradictory evidence and it comes from the place where dream and reality intersect, the best you can get against it is the characters being shuffled around the board by it but it's impossible to survive a black hole anyways so

Now that I think about it, Sonic has quite a lot of statements of him being faster than ever before. Could we extend that to his Peel Out? What I mean is: let's say Sonic is Mach 1 in base and Mach 4 with the Peel Out. If in the next game he's said to be faster than ever before could we say he's now Mach 4 in base?

I mean sure ig. Though for me it kinda depends since some of those statements used here come from external stuff that isn't as implied in-game.

 

[AyOgUyS]

I mean if that's your perspective, but I feel like bending space and time, having an event horizon, and being stated to be a black hole is sufficient enough.

I mean there's no contradictory evidence and it comes from the place where dream and reality intersect, the best you can get against it is the characters being shuffled around the board by it but it's impossible to survive a black hole anyways so

You could say it not immediately causing insane destruction or whatever other black hole shenanigans is contradictory but maybe that's being a bit too strict,

I mean sure ig. Though for me it kinda depends since some of those statements used here come from external stuff that isn't as implied in-game.

I was for a moment considering that "ever before" if interpreted super duper hyper literally could also include Super Sonic stuff but eh that's too big of a stretch imo

 

[LukeChaosBlobz]

As direct as you'd like them. Probably the outrunning black hole feats from Sonic Shuffle and Sonic Colors which should be FTL. Although even if they aren't they're probably relativistic at minimum.

A new IDW classic sonic comic has a group of Hotaru’s ambushing Team Sonic and trying to blast them with their light beams as they move

 

[AyOgUyS]

A new IDW classic sonic comic has a group of Hotaru’s ambushing Team Sonic and trying to blast them with their light beams as they move

Nice, how realistically portrayed are these light beams?

 

[TheStinkeer]

The Time Eater uses a similar charge for his random darkness balls that he uses to prepare his consumption. Plus, the consumption was done by an incomplete Time Eater. Titans like Wyvern were quite literally enraged, and Sonic even had to scale each of them to get the Chaos Emerald. I'm not saying Sonic scales in AP or even in full in speed, but that's why I said it was supporting.

I'd also like to mention he does the same with a near-perfect Dark Gaia's dark attacks, with Perfect Dark Gaia using them later on

A new IDW classic sonic comic has a group of Hotaru’s ambushing Team Sonic and trying to blast them with their light beams as they move

Quick note that the lasers are portrayed as instantaneous compared to the cast so this specific usage doesn't work. Now that being said, it doesn't take away the validity of the feats in the games. If anything, it might even add to it.

 

[TMaakkonen]

Huh

Has IDW only used Super Sonic twice?

 

[Snek]

Huh

Spoiler

Has IDW only used Super Sonic twice?

I could have swore the only time Sonic went super in IDW was during the Metal Virus arc.

 

[TMaakkonen]

I could have swore the only time Sonic went super in IDW was during the Metal Virus arc.

There is a reason I used spoilers :v

 

[AyOgUyS]

There is a reason I used spoilers :v

Sonic X DC?

 

[Snek]

There is a reason I used spoilers :v

Oops

 

[TMaakkonen]

Sonic X DC?

X DC is published by them, no?

 

[AyOgUyS]

X DC is published by them, no?

uhhhh idk

 

[Snek]

X DC is published by them, no?

uhhhh idk

Wikipedia says Sonic x DC is published by DC.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Even IDW of all things has Sonic picking up a shard of glass and reflecting Surge's Cyan Laser blast.

No WAY we're arguing over MHS Sonic in the Big 26 like it's 2017 VSBW lol! Don't we legit have over 15+ feats and statements by this point on the Rel - FTL range alone?

 

[AyOgUyS]

No WAY we're arguing over MHS Sonic in the Big 26 like it's 2017 VSBW lol!

I mean that's that we were doing

Don't we legit have over 15+ feats and statements by this point on the Rel - FTL range alone?

:0

 

[Remus1998]

Even IDW of all things has Sonic picking up a shard of glass and reflecting Surge's Cyan Laser blast.

No WAY we're arguing over MHS Sonic in the Big 26 like it's 2017 VSBW lol! Don't we legit have over 15+ feats and statements by this point on the Rel - FTL range alone?

Tired of having to explain the same things for over half a decade now

 

[AyOgUyS]

Tired of having to explain the same things for over half a decade now

Sorry, didn't mean to exhaust yall.

 

[TheStinkeer]

Even IDW of all things has Sonic picking up a shard of glass and reflecting Surge's Cyan Laser blast.

tbf IDW Sonic could've just seen Surge prepare to blast and pick up the shard ahead of time, still, Sonic could perceive a Cyan Laser approaching him and Surge could somewhat react to the Cyan Laser

No WAY we're arguing over MHS Sonic in the Big 26 like it's 2017 VSBW lol! Don't we legit have over 15+ feats and statements by this point on the Rel - FTL range alone?

Sonic has ZERO feats putting him anywhere near Rel. He's an overrated fraud who always needs power that isn't his own and just about anyone could use and is only just barely supersonic. The only character in this franchise worth talking about is Eggman, who has many reliable feats and does his work all on his own

(This message was sponsored by the Eggman Empire)