Kishin Seiken (Demonic Sword) Multiplier

[WindyAttack]

I believe we should have at least a 3x multiplier for Demonic Holy Sword.

Since it’s stated to be Gun’s strongest attack, and we know Gun has knowledge of CQC because he has combat ability on par with UI Daniel, who himself knows CQC.

This should be consistent because it’s stated again and again for both Gun Park and UI Daniel that they know all martial arts and have already mastered them. By the time this statement was made, CQC had already been introduced, so it should be inclusive of that as well.

Since we know Daniel Park is a copy user and has the ability to replicate anything after seeing it just once, and he has already seen Warren use CQC, it logically means CQC should be part of his arsenal.

(P1: CQC is the combination of all combat units/stances used together. To copy CQC, a person must first have seen and copied all of those combat units/stances.

P2: Daniel witnessed Warren use all of his combat units during the fight against Minsik, and he has seen CQC being used twice.

C: Therefore, Daniel has seen all the required combat units/stances and knows CQC.)

Yet despite that, the strongest attack Daniel Park uses is still Kishin Seiken, which directly supports the idea that Kishin Seiken is superior to CQC.

And since CQC is already accepted as a 3x multiplier, this should apply to Demonic Holy Sword too, considering it’s directly stated to be above Gun’s other attacks.

Now this should be consistent, since other Kings’ attacks like Jinrang’s or Taesoo Ma’s copy were tanked by Paecheon with literally zero visible damage, while Kishin Seiken made him cough up blood and sent him flying into a faraway wall, even making him nearly lose consciousness. So it was something close to a one-shot.

Bonus point: I believe Feint and Counter should also be at least a 3 times multiplier, since it’s stated that it multiplies the attack many times over. potentially reaching a 4x multiplier, since "several" implies 3 times, while "many" would mean at least 4 times. This should be consistent, as Yujae believes Feint and Counter could most likely knock out Jaegyeon Na in a single attack.

Now, I believe Death Hand and Death Kick should also receive a multiplier on par with Feint and Counter, around 4x or even a little higher, like 5x, since narratively they are stronger than 2T Unique Skills because they are 3T Unique Skills.

This should be more consistent because it’s stated that Yujae, through training, became stronger and a monster by developing Death Hand. On top of that, it’s also stated that Jaegyeon overcame his own limits by developing Death Kick, which would make his previous limit, Feint and Counter, inferior to his current 3T skill.

This should be further consistent since Yujae couldn’t defeat Jaegyeon with Feint and Counter, while Jaegyeon was using Death Kick, making it clearly superior to it.

Agree: @CatLover313 (Only Agrees with Feint And Counter Being a 3x multiplier) @Pyro9278 (Same As Cat) @Kakistan (Agrees With Everything) @JirensMom (Same As Cat) @MVMRainAngel (agrees with everything) @Soul80 (Same As Rain) @Pxnd_013 (Same As Rain but he thinks death kick is 4x multiplier) @Aksh_sky (Same As Rain) @WindyAttack (Same As Rain) @TheLaurels (Same As Rain) @Powerscalingcat (Only Agrees with 2x Multiplier for Feint and Counter and 3x for Death Kick)

Neutral:

Disagree: @Powerscalingcat (Disagrees with kishin sekin being a 3x multiplier)

 

[WindyAttack]

@CatLover313 @Aksh_sky @Viott Opinion on this?

 

[Aksh_sky]

Idk if multipliers can get accepted like ts in vsbw but if it does then I agree. Btw Jaegyeon Na and Yujae's feint and counter is also a multiplier since it's stated to increase AP by many times.

U can change the OP and add ts point too since i believe Jaegyeon scales to or above Johan in terms of AP and Yujae's feint and counter would scale to 0.6 tons via that.

Even if we say that Yujae cannot counter death kick or that Jaeg doesn't scale about Johan in terms of AP, but awakened Jaeg deffinately does scales to it and awakened Yujae can theoretically counter awakened Jaeg.

 

[WindyAttack]

Idk if multipliers can get accepted like ts in vsbw but if it does then I agree. Btw Jaegyeon Na and Yujae's feint and counter is also a multiplier since it's stated to increase AP by many times.

U can change the OP and add ts point too since i believe Jaegyeon scales to or above Johan in terms of AP and Yujae's feint and counter would scale to 0.6 tons via that.

Even if we say that Yujae cannot counter death kick or that Jaeg doesn't scale about Johan in terms of AP, but awakened Jaeg deffinately does scales to it and awakened Yujae can theoretically counter awakened Jaeg.

Hmm

 

[WindyAttack]

Bump

 

[Aksh_sky]

Bump

You've made it today nly, why are u bumping it already. Ur supposed to bump ever next day...or I think maybe even everyday...idk, but the only one ik that is ur supposed to bump ur calcs in calc eval thread every fortnight.

 

[CatLover313]

@CatLover313 @Aksh_sky @Viott Opinion on this?

Just to let you know, I didn't get any notifications and had to look at the verse threads to see this.

Disagree with Kishin Seiken being 3x. Gun probably knows about CQC, but it doesn't mean he actually has CQC in his arsenal, especially since he's never shown it. Can't even use the UI Daniel instance as the first time he used CQC was in the 1A arc, and there's no evidence he used it in his first fight against Gun.

Agree with Feint and Counter being 3x due to the Many Times over statement.

 

[Kakistan]

Same reasons as CatLover. Also, as for the AP difference between Daniel's copies, the two you showed were when Daniel was initially in the middle of holding back his strength so that he could use the Strategy. Of course, Kishin Seiken is definitely stronger (given Gitae's acknowledgement of it), but you can't attribute the AP difference to a multiplier.

Though, I think we should add Death Kick/Hand as a 3x-5x as well due to it being far stronger than Feint & Counter. (I'm leaning to 5x given it's heavily more potent.)

 

[Pyro9278]

I am somewhat skeptical that Gun has mastered all the martial arts to the point of saying he "has mastered the CQC" when it is really implausible in his character, we have never seen him use it nor many other techniques that this should involve. There may be knowledge concerning it, yes, but this does not imply there must be a connection between the CQC multiplier and the Demon Sword.

What I can come to think of is that the Demon Sword has some amplifier of its own from Damage Boost (which if it does, only the profile is so outdated that it doesn’t reflect any of that). And in any case this amplifier can be applied to both Gun and Daniel, who has repeatedly shown he uses it, and also to Johan, who must have copied it.

Now regarding the multiplier from Feint & Counter, I think it makes sense, it should have at least a 2x and because Death Kick and Death Hand are superior to this they should have at least a 3x. Should only be applicable in attack speed and AP.

 

[WindyAttack]

Just to let you know, I didn't get any notifications and had to look at the verse threads to see this.

Disagree with Kishin Seiken being 3x. Gun probably knows about CQC, but it doesn't mean he actually has CQC in his arsenal, especially since he's never shown it. Can't even use the UI Daniel instance as the first time he used CQC was in the 1A arc, and there's no evidence he used it in his first fight against Gun.

Agree with Feint and Counter being 3x due to the Many Times over statement.

I've already justified this via Guns skills being on par with UI Daniel logically if UI Daniel and Gun are on the same level of Skills and it's stated narratively that UI Daniel has perfect experiences meaning all experiences in this context thus building up consistency to them knowing and mastering all martial arts

Also Gun and UI Daniel are both stated multiple times to know all martial arts + having masterd them

 

[WindyAttack]

Same reasons as CatLover. Also, as for the AP difference between Daniel's copies, the two you showed were when Daniel was initially in the middle of holding back his strength so that he could use the Strategy. Of course, Kishin Seiken is definitely stronger (given Gitae's acknowledgement of it), but you can't attribute the AP difference to a multiplier.

Though, I think we should add Death Kick/Hand as a 3x-5x as well due to it being far stronger than Feint & Counter. (I'm leaning to 5x given it's heavily more potent.)

I've already given 2 types of reasoning for that it's fine if you disagree with the first one but I'm not really seeing any new refutations to Them knowing all martial arts thus that being inclusive of CQC

Also I'm pretty sure this is a argument from silence

And yea this is also wrong since holding back in this context is in reference to Daniel intentionally not using his full extent of copys that doesn't mean he's pulling his punches or something this is evident with Kitae vs Daniel where he was using weaker copys while holding back and using stronger copys when he gets fullly locked in

 

[WindyAttack]

I am somewhat skeptical that Gun has mastered all the martial arts to the point of saying he "has mastered the CQC" when it is really implausible in his character, we have never seen him use it nor many other techniques that this should involve. There may be knowledge concerning it, yes, but this does not imply there must be a connection between the CQC multiplier and the Demon Sword.

What I can come to think of is that the Demon Sword has some amplifier of its own from Damage Boost (which if it does, only the profile is so outdated that it doesn’t reflect any of that). And in any case this amplifier can be applied to both Gun and Daniel, who has repeatedly shown he uses it, and also to Johan, who must have copied it.

Now regarding the multiplier from Feint & Counter, I think it makes sense, it should have at least a 2x and because Death Kick and Death Hand are superior to this they should have at least a 3x. Should only be applicable in attack speed and AP.

Just because he hasn't used it doesn't mean he doesn't have it it's narratively implied and stated and is consistent with the narrative

A author logically cannot show Gun doding every single type of Martial arts due to story concern also this is a argument from ignorance

 

[Pyro9278]

Just because he hasn't used it doesn't mean he doesn't have it it's narratively implied and stated and is consistent with the narrative

A author logically cannot show Gun doding every single type of Martial arts due to story concern also this is a argument from ignorance

It's not ignorance; I'm saying it's implausible for the character. I doubt PTJ was speaking semantically when they said Gun "knows and masters all martial arts," including CQC.

 

[CatLover313]

I've already justified this via Guns skills being on par with UI Daniel logically if UI Daniel and Gun are on the same level of Skills and it's stated narratively that UI Daniel has perfect experiences meaning all experiences in this context thus building up consistency to them knowing and mastering all martial arts

Also Gun and UI Daniel are both stated multiple times to know all martial arts + having masterd them

The statement for Gun could be argued as a hyperbole especially since he really does lack any evidence of ever using nor teaching CQC considering he nor any of his disciples have ever been shown using CQC ngl. Unlike UI Daniel who contains multiple statements from different fighters about his skill prowess. But I won’t argue for that and it can be something staff can ask more on.

Assuming it is true though, granting Gun theoretically "knows" CQC, that only gets him the foundation, and the panels that were used in the 3x CQC CRT distinguished baseline CQC and the upgraded version, which is explicitly tied to a personally trained and customized style built on top of that foundation ("depending on the styles you create"). Manager Kim has his own custom CQC that he made which is taught to Warren so it’s fair for them to get the 3x multiplier. So what needs to be proven is that Guns mastery in CQC is high enough to justify a Unique CQC for the multiplier which results in your Kishin argument and said evidence besides that one quote is very very lacking.

Ultimately though, really seems like that one quote of knowing every martial arts without demonstrating it is hard carrying this CRT and seems more like a staff decision thing rather than anything anyone can argue ngl.

 

[Pyro9278]

The statement for Gun could be argued as a hyperbole especially since he really does lack any evidence of ever using nor teaching CQC considering he nor any of his disciples have ever been shown using CQC ngl.

To be fair, Gun didn't even teach Lil Daniel everything he knows, or if he did, then Gun is implying that he doesn't master all martial arts as he seems to. Since Gun refers to "all techniques under the sun," and the Rising Sun is Japan, he's only referring to martial arts originating in Japan, or at least from the Yamazaki Clan.

 

[CatLover313]

Since Gun refers to "all techniques under the sun," and the Rising Sun is Japan, he's only referring to martial arts originating in Japan, or at least from the Yamazaki Clan.

dang, didn’t think we’d be metaphor interpreting now

 

[Pyro9278]

dang, didn’t think we’d be metaphor interpreting now

That's what I think, and it's quite logical to assume that he had mastered all styles of Karate along with other Japanese martial arts.

 

[JirensMom]

I agree with the OVT multiplier, but not the kishin seiken multiplier.

 

[Aksh_sky]

To be fair, Gun didn't even teach Lil Daniel everything he knows, or if he did, then Gun is implying that he doesn't master all martial arts as he seems to. Since Gun refers to "all techniques under the sun," and the Rising Sun is Japan, he's only referring to martial arts originating in Japan, or at least from the Yamazaki Clan.

He did said he reached Daniel everything he knows. Though i don't think so it's unlikely for lil Daniel to know CQC because he saw UI Daniel using CQC.

And speaking of the Sun thing then it's a bad arg ngl, it haz zero substance because there is no evidence that the semantic is symbolic and the symbolism represents that specific interpretation, you could even say Gun taught Daniel all matial arts under HudSON because uhh...HudSON is the sun on Ansan. Ye basically it's stupid. He did also once mentioned that he taught him everything he knows.

 

[WindyAttack]

It's not ignorance; I'm saying it's implausible for the character. I doubt PTJ was speaking semantically when they said Gun "knows and masters all martial arts," including CQC.

Why's this implausible for Gun when it's straight up consistent with the statements of UI Daniel and Gun Park himself?

There are at least 2 Statements for Gun then 4 statements for UI Daniel then we have PTJ themselves saying UI Daniel's skills are on par with Gun should consistent since UI Daniel also has the perfect experiences

 

[WindyAttack]

The statement for Gun could be argued as a hyperbole especially since he really does lack any evidence of ever using nor teaching CQC considering he nor any of his disciples have ever been shown using CQC ngl. Unlike UI Daniel who contains multiple statements from different fighters about his skill prowess. But I won’t argue for that and it can be something staff can ask more on.

Assuming it is true though, granting Gun theoretically "knows" CQC, that only gets him the foundation, and the panels that were used in the 3x CQC CRT distinguished baseline CQC and the upgraded version, which is explicitly tied to a personally trained and customized style built on top of that foundation ("depending on the styles you create"). Manager Kim has his own custom CQC that he made which is taught to Warren so it’s fair for them to get the 3x multiplier. So what needs to be proven is that Guns mastery in CQC is high enough to justify a Unique CQC for the multiplier which results in your Kishin argument and said evidence besides that one quote is very very lacking.

Ultimately though, really seems like that one quote of knowing every martial arts without demonstrating it is hard carrying this CRT and seems more like a staff decision thing rather than anything anyone can argue ngl.

If you agree with UI Daniel mastering CQC then you'd have to agree with Gun Park himself mastering CQC since it's stated by PTJ boths combat ability/Skills are the same

Why's this hyperbole if it's consistent with the narrative and stated multiple times by both characters and the narrator box? You know that Narrator Box Itself says UI Daniel has the Perfect experiences and in this context it's reffering to having full knowledge about even the foundations of martial arts

No? It's literally stated Gun park is the master of all martial arts and UI Daniel has also all Martial arts along with their full foundation stated by Jerry if They are both on the same combat ability level then logically it should be inclusive of CQC No?

 

[WindyAttack]

dang, didn’t think we’d be metaphor interpreting now

That's actually wrong since under the sun in philosophical context refers to the whole world that's why in most mangas or manhwas you'd have statements like strongest under the heavens or the sun also this isn't relevant because again Gun has Combat Ability on par with UI Daniel who has statements of knowing all kinds of martial arts and having perfect experiences + he has displayed CQC and it's even stated by Warren UI Daniels CQC is a improved version

Also what's your opinion about the death hand and death kick?

 

[CatLover313]

If you agree with UI Daniel mastering CQC then you'd have to agree with Gun Park himself mastering CQC since it's stated by PTJ boths combat ability/Skills are the same

Why's this hyperbole if it's consistent with the narrative and stated multiple times by both characters and the narrator box? You know that Narrator Box Itself says UI Daniel has the Perfect experiences and in this context it's reffering to having full knowledge about even the foundations of martial arts

No? It's literally stated Gun park is the master of all martial arts and UI Daniel has also all Martial arts along with their full foundation stated by Jerry if They are both on the same combat ability level then logically it should be inclusive of CQC No?

Wouldn’t be the first time a series has a narration box that was deemed as an hyperbole due to lack of evidence…. Well, doesn’t seem like anything will be decided without staff interruption one whether it’s a hyperbole or reliable.

 

[WindyAttack]

Wouldn’t be the first time a series has a narration box that was deemed as an hyperbole due to lack of evidence…. Well, doesn’t seem like anything will be decided without staff interruption one whether it’s a hyperbole or reliable.

Why do you think it's hyperbole if it's supported by Gun Himself 2 Times, and multiple other characters saying UI Daniel knows all Martial arts and it's evidently shown through him using Kitae or Jinrangs attack who hasn't even meet with or any other Martial arts should be consistent with the narrators box too in no shape or from this is hyperbole

And if you think it's hyperbole please provide a argument for that since until the it'd be unproven claim. Also your only argument is that he hasn't shown it thus he doesn't have it is a appeal to silence or argument to silence

 

[CatLover313]

Why do you think it's hyperbole if it's supported by Gun Himself 2 Times, and multiple other characters saying UI Daniel knows all Martial arts and it's evidently shown through him using Kitae or Jinrangs attack who hasn't even meet with or any other Martial arts should be consistent with the narrators box too in no shape or from this is hyperbole

And if you think it's hyperbole please provide a argument for that since until the it'd be unproven claim. Also your only argument is that he hasn't shown it thus he doesn't have it is a appeal to silence or argument to silence

Yes, it really is as simple as that. Gun has never shown CQC, never mention it, and none of his students has ever even used it. Let alone the fact that you keep trying to interpret UI Daniel of knowing every martial art to mean Gun does too using an nearly 5 year old statement when we’ve had many retcons/changes of older ideas throughout the years like mastery being changed multiple times, guns inconsistent power level, sinu generation change, UI itself having its mechanisms changed, guns reasonings for teaching Daniel, some Vin statements, and let’s not even mention how PTJ butchered his timeline so much, that he had to explain his own timeline in Cheonliang.

So if all the evidence for the multiplier is a 5 year old IG post and vague hyperbolic statements with not even an “indication” of him using or even saying CQC in the series, then I’ll have to be firm on disagreeing.

 

[WindyAttack]

Yes, it really is as simple as that. Gun has never shown CQC, never mention it, and none of his students has ever even used it. Let alone the fact that you keep trying to interpret UI Daniel of knowing every martial art to mean Gun does too using an nearly 5 year old statement when we’ve had many retcons/changes of older ideas throughout the years like mastery being changed multiple times, guns inconsistent power level, sinu generation change, UI itself having its mechanisms changed, guns reasonings for teaching Daniel, some Vin statements, and let’s not even mention how PTJ butchered his timeline so much, that he had to explain his own timeline in Cheonliang.

So if all the evidence for the multiplier is a 5 year old IG post and vague hyperbolic statements with not even an “indication” of him using or even saying CQC in the series, then I’ll have to be firm on disagreeing.

Yea you are pre supposing this is a hyperbolic statements without ever justifying why that would be the case at all.

Why it being 5 years old statements mean anything? Sure there are multiple retcons but that doesn't means the combat ability thing in itself would be a retcon that's a pre supposed claim and unproven so far also this is a hasty generalisation.

And again I've already told you if the narrative, multiple statements + PTJ themselves support this thing then the non existence of Gun showcasing his CQC is irrelevant because logically author cannot show every single Martial arts. So far you haven't really given a solid argument for your claims + you are repeating yourself atp.

Also again All Martial arts is inclusive of CQC and UI Daniel also knows CQC if Guns combat ability is on par with him then he also logically knows CQC. Claiming otherwise is strictly argument from silence

I think we can just agree to disagree here I'd rather just wait for other staffs or people's opinions

And yea what's your take about Death Kick also being a 3x or 5X multiplier?

 

[MVMRainAngel]

Regarding Feint and Counter, I think it can have at least a 4x multiplier when the word "many" is mentioned

 

[Aksh_sky]

Regarding Feint and Counter, I think it can have at least a 4x multiplier when the word "many" is mentioned

Yeah, ur right.

 

[WindyAttack]

Regarding Feint and Counter, I think it can have at least a 4x multiplier when the word "many" is mentioned

Makes sense so Feint and Counter is 4x? While Death Kick is 5x?

 

[Kakistan]

Regarding Feint and Counter, I think it can have at least a 4x multiplier when the word "many" is mentioned

I agree with that @WindyAttack given numerous staff agree with it

Feint & Counter: x4 Multiplier
Death Kick/Hand: x5 Multiplier
Kishin Seiken: Unsure

 

[Aksh_sky]

Makes sense so Feint and Counter is 4x? While Death Kick is 5x?

Make Feint and Counter 4x, add in the OP and if that's 4x then it's very logical for death kick to be 5x. Make sure to add the quoted comment aswell.

 

[WindyAttack]

Added

Make Feint and Counter 4x, add in the OP and if that's 4x then it's very logical for death kick to be 5x. Make sure to add the quoted comment aswell.

 

[Aksh_sky]

Added

Btw kakistan agrees with the 4x and 5x multiplier meanwhile cat didn't yet so u can remove that.

 

[WindyAttack]

Btw kakistan agrees with the 4x and 5x multiplier meanwhile cat didn't yet so u can remove that.

Done

 

[Soul80]

Agree with everything

 

[Pyro9278]

Why's this implausible for Gun when it's straight up consistent with the statements of UI Daniel and Gun Park himself?

There are at least 2 Statements for Gun then 4 statements for UI Daniel then we have PTJ themselves saying UI Daniel's skills are on par with Gun should consistent since UI Daniel also has the perfect experiences

Two hyperbolic statements do not make a consistent statement. If PTJ’s intention was for Gun to have the CQC then it proves that he used it MINIMUM once.

With Daniel UI the statements make sense and if there is a way to prove it because it is part of his character and his narrative. With Gun, the closest we can say is that because he is the Training Genius, he knows the CQC and trains to counter it.

 

[Aksh_sky]

Two hyperbolic statements do not make a consistent statement. If PTJ’s intention was for Gun to have the CQC then it proves that he used it MINIMUM once.

With Daniel UI the statements make sense and if there is a way to prove it because it is part of his character and his narrative. With Gun, the closest we can say is that because he is the Training Genius, he knows the CQC and trains to counter it.

Just because it isn't showed, doesn't proves that he doens't have it. For example in the profile of grandpa Gohan from db. It's accepted that he knows all marital arts even though all of them aren't shown and it's just stated.

That's like saying that 'I haven't seen the end of the desert that means it doesn't exist' or 'I haven't seen the planet Uranus, then that means it doesn't exists, and all those images and statements must be fake'.

 

[WindyAttack]

Two hyperbolic statements do not make a consistent statement. If PTJ’s intention was for Gun to have the CQC then it proves that he used it MINIMUM once.

With Daniel UI the statements make sense and if there is a way to prove it because it is part of his character and his narrative. With Gun, the closest we can say is that because he is the Training Genius, he knows the CQC and trains to counter it.

You are pre supposing those two are hyperbolic in nature without ever justifying why would that ever be the case and again that is not my whole argument

Gun States he knows all Martial arts 2 times
UI Daniel has all Martial arts too + CQC (it's shown on screen) via multiple characters statement + narrative box saying he has the "perfect experiences" In this context this means the perfect experiences for fighting meaning all Martial arts because that's what makes UI more powerful

Now there was a statement by PTJ that UI Daniel and Gun have the same combat ability so this should logically be inclusive of CQC too

Also what's your opinion about The OVT & Death Kick multipliers?

 

[Pyro9278]

Just because it isn't showed, doesn't proves that he doens't have it. For example in the profile of grandpa Gohan from db. It's accepted that he knows all marital arts even though all of them aren't shown and it's just stated.

That's like saying that 'I haven't seen the end of the desert that means it doesn't exist' or 'I haven't seen the planet Uranus, then that means it doesn't exists, and all those images and statements must be fake'.

And how should that affect Lookism when DB is a separate verse? It's not even the same context; Grandpa Gohan is known as a world-famous martial artist, and DB's feats of skill make Lookism look ridiculous.

 

[Kakistan]

This whole thing with CQC & UI Daniel made me realise UI SB also gets the x3 to his High 8C scaling.