Downgrading Killer Peter once again and debunking some calcs

[Aksh_sky]

So to start off with this crt, I'll get things straight that I'm here to well, as the title suggests, to debunk some bad Killer Peter calcs and downgrading the verse once again. And speaking of 'bad' KP calcs then ngl, just glancing at the speed page of the verse makes me realise how genuinely bad these calcs are. But I'll try to disprove all of them going in a descending order:

1) Thaddeus blitzed a Rank B Killer

So I'll go one by one debunking and proving why the assumptions that are used in the calcs are extremely wrong.

1. The assumption they used:
"For the timeframe, we will not use the Rank B assassin’s timeframe since it violates the Blitz rule. Instead, we will use a third-party reference, Yuna Lee. Yuna, who was observing, stated that she couldn’t keep up with the attacks. Although she is only a Rank D assassin, she is still far above a normal athlete. Therefore, we will use the maximum human reaction timeframe of an athlete, which is 0.1 seconds."

First of all, i suppose they meant perception timframe and not reaction timeframe because Yuna didn't really had anything to 'react' as she was literally just an observer, anyways, I'll assume that 0.1 second is perception speed that's used here.

Second of all, idk from where he got the idea that 'not being keeping up or tracking attacks' = 'not being able to perceive attacks'.

The whole base of the calc relies on an assumption that Yuna couldn't perceive any of those 8 attacks that he calced, meaning his attack was done within her perception timeframe, making her unable to see or process anything.

But here's a BIG issue, and to understand that we'll need to understand the definition of 'perception speed', so as per vsbw, perception time is:
"Perception speed refers to a character's ability to quickly process and understand sensory information. Unlike reaction speed, it's about the initial intake of data, not any subsequent actions, so perception speed doesn't encompass decision-making or actions beyond the initial sensory processing; characters with a perception speed higher than their reaction speed would be able to notice something without necessarily being able to dodge it."

So through this we can simply understand that 'perception timframe' is the timeframe of a charecter to mentally digest visual information or process it, basically. And perception blitzing or moving a certain distance within the timframe would simply mean that a set charecter moved in a certain distance before another charecter could even perceive or visualise the information.

Now, since we have the definition clear, we can go back to the statement used to justfiy perception blitz, which was "My eyes MAY not have been able to FOLLOW his movements" now I've already wrote the keywords in caps but all she said was that SHE WAS UNABLE TO FOLLOW HIS MOVEMENTS, infact not even 'was' just 'maybe was', and regardless not being able to follow movements doesn't imply that she had a completely inability to PERCEIVE his movements or all his movements and his 8 attacks. If I'm not able to follow the movement of a ball then that DOES NOT imply that I'm unable to perceive that ball. As visual perception means the brain’s ability to interpret what's visible meanwhile tracking is eyes’ ability to follow a moving object. They both are not AT ALL the same thing.

Moreover, if the text would had even REMOTELY implied that she was unable to perceive(which clearly isn't the case here) then that'll still not be considered, as Yuna WAS infact able to mentally digest those visual information and we were even shown those visualization and her observations disproving her complete inability to perceive, via her estimation of the number of attacks Thaddeus performed. And due to all those reasons, the usage of the perception timeframe of Yuna for Thaddeus's attacks won't be considered valid.

And even if you tried to argue that those other two dudes kinda implied they couldn't see anything then lemme tell you that those two guys are faster than Yuna and are gag charecters who are often shown unserious and they act dumb because they ARE dumb. They just said that what has hit him not because they were unable to see anything as they clearly saw one attack, but they just said it out of shock and the phrase 'what has hit him?' doens't even entails that they couldn't perceive it as that's just a way to show shock it exclamation. Because even if someone couldn't see, they can easily contextually figure out that what has hit them, which would be ofcourse a kick because they saw him do that earlier too, for example a solider would know that his ally is hit by a bullet just from the context regardless of he can perceive the bullet or not(which he ofcourse can't). And the fact that they clearly saw one attack of Thaddeus already disproves the usage of the 0.1 second timeframe for all his attacks, and yes that most likely means that they didn't payed attention properly like how Yuna did. So even if we say that they couldn't perceive and Yuna could then that'll still won't be usable, because them being faster yet unable to perceive would make incosnsistency which would at the end would just get redirected to the second possibility which says that they just didn't observed properly as compared to Yuna, which is consistent because they are gag charecters.

So yeah, the timeframe cannot be used.

2. Thaddeus's leg movements that are used in this calc for his kicks are extremely inflated as we don't even see him kick properly in that feat, infact we don't see anything at all summing everything into just assumption without proper justifications. For example, how this calc assumes that Thaddeus retracted his whole leg each time he kicks which again only relies on an assumption as he could've only just retracted his knees only to kick once again instead of his whole leg each time.
And also they just used 180° arc for each of Thaddeus's leg movements, also for...you guessed it...no reasons. Not only it's almost not humanly possible for someone to lifting their leg straight in front of them until it’s perfectly in line with their torso, even in case it's possible then it's just if they either lean their todso backwards or their position isn’t purely a strict front raise, but regardless they use their hand to assist unlike in this case where Thaddeus obviously didn't do that since he had his arms crossed and neither he moved his todso. This gets more closer to impossible and almost completely impossible if a full 180° arc is done by the leg backwards. So it's pretty obvious that not only the assumption for the 180° movement lacked substantial weight or justification but it's also pretty illogical for somone to move that way each time to kick a total of 8 times while looking in front and having their arm crossed while the guy being kicked is in the back. It’s not possible for him to move his leg 180 degrees for every single kick. He could move his leg 180 degrees to kick the opponent in the head. But to kick the shoulder, he would need to move his leg less than 180 degrees. To kick the stomach, he would need even less movement. And to kick the legs, he would need far less movement.

Overall, this calc is pretty bad, moving on to the next one.

2) Thaddeus counters a bunch of fodders

Again I'll go pointwise debunking this calc.

1. Again there's literally no justification provided on why 0.08 reaction seconds timeframe was used or why those random fodders are subsonic level and why were they unable to perceive all those attacks because reaction time deffinately cannot be used for all of them as Thaddeus obviously came at them one by one so reaction time won't really work for all his attacks on other individuals too... LITERALLY NOTHING was provided. Infact 0.1 second reaction time was compared with Thaddeus's own reaction time himself by Raphael.

But anyways, for some reason the high end was used even though DMUA never specified on which end should've been used so idk why this was added into the profile.

2. Again, same thing. The assumptions used for movements of kicks and the assumption for leg retraction. Even the person calcing it themself stated that they aren't sure on what the angles were YET they were just assuming angles for the kicks and all with no proper justifications and same goes with the justifications for leg retractions.

It's wayy safer to just use normal pixel lines, similar what Arthur Nando once used.

Anyways this should be enough to prove why this calc is bad too, now let's move on to one that's even worse.

3) Thaddeus counters Kageo

Same as others, I'll debunk it pointwise as it's one of the worst calcs here.

1. First of all, Thaddeus CLEARLY MOVED TO THE SIDE first to avoid the punch. So idk how this got accepted because the movement in the timeframe was already made when he moved aside and he punched AFTER moving aside. They assumed that while Kageo’s punch moved 0.124823m, Thaddeus moved his arm 1.2m during that same time and also retracted it back. But there's no evidence for that as in the next panel, we can clearly see that the punch traveled a much greater distance.

Thus the calc is invalid.

2. And also, the close punch evading rule DOES apply here as Thaddeus was faster than Kageo but not THAT faster than him as Kageo could clearly dodge Thaddeus's attacks and could even block multiple attacks from him before it landed, infact he could even land attacks on Thaddeus and could even copy Thaddeus's attacks and even was able to improve them.

So yeah, the close punch evading rule DOES APPLY.

Overall, this calc is also pretty bad so we'll move on the next one

4) Thaddeus blitzes Andreas

This one of the better calcs as it also has pretty good reasoning and i think it works but the only problem I see with it is that old angsizing formula is used because well... the calc is old. And average human reaction time should be used as I've already stated that Thaddeus's reaction time was compared to 0.1 seconds.

But i also believe that Thaddeus's full height should be used for angsizing and the new formula should be used.

Anyways, that'll be it for now

KP should be downgraded to subsonic and all these calcs should either be removed or fixed.

This gets even more consistent as I'll now write up the reasons why the KP verse shouldn't get pass subsonic:

P1: For Sikadi to land an attack on Thaddeus, she needed to push herself to the limit and move at 134 km/h, which means her usual speed is below 134 km/h.
Because it was even stated that previously, her TOP SPEED was only 134 km/h

P2: However, even at this speed, Thaddeus at 256 km/h was fast enough to completely outpace Sikadi, leaving her unable to react and take a hit from him.

P3: Judas said that Sikadi was the only one who matched up to the suppressed Thaddeus when moving below 134 km/h.

P4: Judas can be scaled up to Simon and the other apostles, so his claim should carry some weight when talking about the apostle scaling in general, both in their prime.

P5: Even if we assume that the 256 km/h feat does not reflect Thaddeus’ combat speed but rather his movement/travel speed, the fact is that Sikadi was clearly unable to react to Thaddeus’ movement at this speed before being hit. Whether it is called “combat speed” or “travel speed,” it does not affect anything as it still scales with perception and reaction speeds.

P6: Sikadi even stated that these kind of speeds aren't humanly possible as she's actually suprised and thinks that much speed isn't possible, neither she had ever made such made such comments before regarding anyone else and neither she ever showed this level of surprise. Which should prove that it isn't a general statement.

P7: Even Thaddeus's speed readings were spoken when he was clearly attacking which further adds consistency to my arguement.

C: Thus, the apostles would realistically scale below 134 km/h in reaction speed and around 256 km/h at best.

Therefore, the Killer Peter verse should be at best subsonic.

That'll be it for this post.

 

[FragrantJaguar150]

The statement is for travel speed . I love seeing how things are taken out of context. I will be talking about the skadi speed statements for now as it seems to be the major priority.

About the B-Rank calc. Do you know what reaction time is? It is the time taken to process what happens Infront of you. 0.1 s is that timeframe which is infact possible by real life standards as well although very hard.

Faster then 0.1s was compared with Thaddeus and Raphael at that time was also gave an example of faster then 0.1s reaction time only to dwarf it Infront of thaddues and it seems like you are taking things very much out of context

P1:
Skadi herself said that Thaddeus was standing on glasses and which leads to him not able to counter her attacks.( But he does afterwards). This travel speed and if you mean travel speed then ok.
I don't support combat speed being this for skadi as she is trying to gain speed only to forcefully crash into a defenseless thaddues. In killer peter manwha we have seen time to time that using such methods increase their AP significantly


P2:
You can see how Skadi is perfectly able to utter such words which would go against the reaction blitz you are telling of.

P3:
I don't understand what you are saying. Maybe try wording it better.
Judas was clearly referring to travel speed. You should re-read what travel and combat speed means in Here.
I am confused like why is this even a point. Am I misunderstanding? Are perhaps trying to cap the travel speed for the verse?

P5:
It was for travel speed and the narrative backs it up by saying creating something like a whip as sharp as a sword.
Skadi is able to react to the attack and perceive it as well for the reasons I mentioned above.

P6:
Not true and skadi never said it. Why are you lying? Skadi says inhumane balance instead of inhumane speed. Before you make your claims. You should see if the official chapter backs my claims or not.

I don't understand why are you using an unofficial translation ? When the official says otherwise.

P7:
The reading was about the travel speed as Thaddeus was gaining momentum to enhance his AP which again is shown to be true time and time in the manwha.
Combat speed doesn't equal to travel speed.

 

[Aksh_sky]

The statement is for travel speed . I love seeing how things are taken out of context. I will be talking about the skadi speed statements for now as it seems to be the major priority.

Again, unsubstantial affirmation + You couldn't even track properly on my arguements, you just stated it's for TS without a substance when it was clearly stated for all speed aswell as attack speed.

About the B-Rank calc. Do you know what reaction time is? It is the time taken to process what happens Infront of you

Ye, there's a reason why I don't wanna discuss with you. You just confidently type down wrong stuff. I've literally given definition for both and it's not just to process what's in front but it's to process AND perform a subsequent action afterwards. And obviously reaction speed cannot be used for observers.

Faster then 0.1s was compared with Thaddeus and Raphael at that time was also gave an example of faster then 0.1s reaction time only to dwarf it Infront of thaddues and it seems like you are taking things very much out of context

Again, unsubstantial. You literally didn't proves how it was an 'example' when Thaddeus's own reaction speed wasn't implicitly much superior than 0.1 seconds in Raphael's statements. Nothing there proves that 0.1 seconds was much inferior to Thaddeus's reaction time.

Skadi herself said that Thaddeus was standing on glasses and which leads to him not able to counter her attacks.( But he does afterwards). This travel speed and if you mean travel speed then ok.
I don't support combat speed being this for skadi as she is trying to gain speed only to forcefully crash into a defenseless thaddues. In killer peter manwha we have seen time to time that using such methods increase their AP significantly

I think udk how syllogism works so you couldn't just replied normally. Anyways that doens't really disproves any of my arguements that Sikadi herself could move freely there and yet she was the fastest second to Thaddeus alone.

P2:
You can see how Skadi is perfectly able to utter such words which would go against the reaction blitz you are telling of.

Sir, it was before she got attack and while she was observing him accelerating. She had nothing to 'react' at that particular time when she was stating that. Please learn the difference between reaction and perception speed, you really need to know that. Reacting blitz simple means unable to do actions to avoid or similar while someone is about to attack, it won't count what you do prior or afterwards.

And also, again...she clearly could react to neither his travel speed nor his attack speed, so none of ur arguements did anything to my premises.

Even if we assume that Thaddeus only rushed towards her in that speed after literally requiring to accelerate and didn't even attacked and only crashed into her, then she'll STILL not scale to 256km/h since she knew and herself stated that she would've gotten pulverized and cooked if she got hit by that YET she could react or avoid.

I don't understand what you are saying. Maybe try wording it better.

??? My wording is perfect coherent, if you cannot understand then it's your problwm.

Judas was clearly referring to travel speed. You should re-read what travel and combat speed means in Here.

Again, unsubstantial affirmation. When? Where? You just keep stating but never justfiy. Why would he reffer to travel speed when he literally was getting attacked and was getting blitzed and whopped badly. He is obviously just reffering that Sikadi is overall the fastest only second to Thaddeus. Also regardless of wether he talked about travel or reaction speed, my main premises were never about that in my syllogism, it was simply that Judas couldn't react to the same attack that's speed was stated to be 134 km/h, and if he cannot react to attacks of those speeds regardless of wether it's travel speed or attack speed, it'd just mean that Judas is no faster than that speed as his reaction speed scales below it.

It was for travel speed and the narrative backs it up by saying creating something like a whip as sharp as a sword.
Skadi is able to react to the attack and perceive it as well for the reasons I mentioned above.

Again, stop giving statements that doens't even have any substancial weight. You've neither objectively proven on how it's specifically travel speed and ONLY travel speed nor had you even tracked my syllogism properly. Regardless of what speed it is, if you fail to react to such speeds in a serious fight then it simply means that you scale below that speed, it's that simple.

Not true and skadi never said it. Why are you lying? Skadi says inhumane balance instead of inhumane speed. Before you make your claims. You should see if the official chapter backs my claims or not.

I've literally even attacked links to all of my arguements and if you cannot read then it's not my problem. Also if you're saying what she stated is her true statement then prove it and prove how it has more substantial weight than the translation I'm showing.

I don't understand why are you using an unofficial translation ? When the official says otherwise.

Unless you prove why those particular translated texts are unreliable, the translation could be used perfectly fine. Also I don't remember much different things being stated when i read the raws.

Even Thaddeus knows that 134km/h is her TOP SPEED.

The reading was about the travel speed as Thaddeus was gaining momentum to enhance his AP which again is shown to be true time and time in the manwha.
Combat speed doesn't equal to travel speed

Please track atp. I'll not be repeating the same thing. If u can't track then it's simply not my problem.

 

[FragrantJaguar150]

Again, unsubstantial affirmation + You couldn't even track properly on my arguements, you just stated it's for TS without a substance when it was clearly stated for all speed aswell as attack speed.


Ye, there's a reason why I don't wanna discuss with you. You just confidently type down wrong stuff. I've literally given definition for both and it's not just to process what's in front but it's to process AND perform a subsequent action afterwards. And obviously reaction speed cannot be used for observers.


Again, unsubstantial. You literally didn't proves how it was an 'example' when Thaddeus's own reaction speed wasn't implicitly much superior than 0.1 seconds in Raphael's statements. Nothing there proves that 0.1 seconds was much inferior to Thaddeus's reaction time.


I think udk how syllogism works so you couldn't just replied normally. Anyways that doens't really disproves any of my arguements that Sikadi herself could move freely there and yet she was the fastest second to Thaddeus alone.

Sir, it was before she got attack and while she was observing him accelerating. She had nothing to 'react' at that particular time when she was stating that. Please learn the difference between reaction and perception speed, you really need to know that. Reacting blitz simple means unable to do actions to avoid or similar while someone is about to attack, it won't count what you do prior or afterwards.

And also, again...she clearly could react to neither his travel speed nor his attack speed, so none of ur arguements did anything to my premises.

Even if we assume that Thaddeus only rushed towards her in that speed after literally requiring to accelerate and didn't even attacked and only crashed into her, then she'll STILL not scale to 256km/h since she knew and herself stated that she would've gotten pulverized and cooked if she got hit by that YET she could react or avoid.

??? My wording is perfect coherent, if you cannot understand then it's your problwm.


Again, unsubstantial affirmation. When? Where? You just keep stating but never justfiy. Why would he reffer to travel speed when he literally was getting attacked and was getting blitzed and whopped badly. He is obviously just reffering that Sikadi is overall the fastest only second to Thaddeus. Also regardless of wether he talked about travel or reaction speed, my main premises were never about that in my syllogism, it was simply that Judas couldn't react to the same attack that's speed was stated to be 134 km/h, and if he cannot react to attacks of those speeds regardless of wether it's travel speed or attack speed, it'd just mean that Judas is no faster than that speed as his reaction speed scales below it.


Again, stop giving statements that doens't even have any substancial weight. You've neither objectively proven on how it's specifically travel speed and ONLY travel speed nor had you even tracked my syllogism properly. Regardless of what speed it is, if you fail to react to such speeds in a serious fight then it simply means that you scale below that speed, it's that simple.


I've literally even attacked links to all of my arguements and if you cannot read then it's not my problem. Also if you're saying what she stated is her true statement then prove it and prove how it has more substantial weight than the translation I'm showing.


Unless you prove why those particular translated texts are unreliable, the translation could be used perfectly fine. Also I don't remember much different things being stated when i read the raws.

Even Thaddeus knows that 134km/h is her TOP SPEED.



Please track atp. I'll not be repeating the same thing. If u can't track then it's simply not my problem.

You dismissed the points as claims when I have very much provided weight behind it.
So you think running circles on ice is combat speed?
You think bouncing from one surface to another is combat speed?

Reaction time is the amount of time it takes for a person to detect an unexpected stimulus, process it, and physically respond. It measures how quickly your brain and body communicate to take action.
How cannot an observer have a reaction?
Yuna couldn't meet the requirements above. And for one last time being able to visualize something doesn't make you able to react to it.
D-rank brothers cannot be considered as gag and will never be. Even if they literally say " did something else hit the B-Rank" you are seriously going ignore it for the sake of agenda?
The funny thing is seeing you 'confidently' ask me about how the statement is unofficial.
Webtoons> any unofficial site.
It was written as inhumane balance in the WEBTOON.

Raphael says that if a person moves within 0.1s( note within meaning before 0.1s. ) then it would be considered predicting and disqualified by the jugde.
It was from the judge's view point (a normal human) that faster then 0.1s is impossible .
If 0 second reaction time doesn't prove absolute superiority over faster then 0.1s (be it a hyperbole) to you then consider rethinking.

Skadi reacts to Thaddeus's attack and precives it . Hence giving you the non official statement to work from .
The reason why she could defend that attack is she was injured by the strikes.


Funny enough the official webtoons has Skadi saying " I have surpassed my limits"
"I can surpass humanity's limit"
Meaning she hasn't even surpassed the limit that is humanity.
In terms of travel speed aswell.

Combat speed is something else.
I can say the same to you. You only claimed how it is combat speed and never gave a reasonable argument on it being combat speed.
Again, unsubstantial affirmation + You couldn't even track properly on my arguements, you just stated it's for TS without a substance when it was clearly stated for all travel speed.

 

[MVMRainAngel]

I agreed with 2,3,4 calculations. Additionally, in calculation number 4, I remember Andrew was able to touch Thaddeus, so a timeframe blitz couldn't be used.

 

[FragrantJaguar150]

I agreed with 2,3,4 calculations. Additionally, in calculation number 4, I remember Andrew was able to touch Thaddeus, so a timeframe blitz couldn't be used.

But didn't Andrew say that it happened so fast even pain couldn't register?
What do you think about 1?

 

[MVMRainAngel]

But didn't Andrew say that it happened so fast even pain couldn't register?

It seems Andrew was unable to react, not unable to perceive

What do you think about 1?

I don't see much of a problem with the timeframe; I think the distance part is also a problem, but I'm not sure

 

[Aksh_sky]

I agreed with 2,3,4 calculations. Additionally, in calculation number 4, I remember Andrew was able to touch Thaddeus, so a timeframe blitz couldn't be used.

Thaddeus infact got hypnotised aswell. So yeah i agree.

 

[Aksh_sky]

You dismissed the points as claims when I have very much provided weight behind it.

??? What are u even talking about? What prives the weight.

So you think running circles on ice is combat speed?
You think bouncing from one surface to another is combat speed?

Sir, you have serious tracking issues. Please track my syllogism properly, that's why i don't wanna engage in an arguement with you. It was never just about combat or travel speed, it was about reaction speed. Regardless of what speed it is, she couldn't react to it, same with the attacks when he crashed into her.

Reaction time is the amount of time it takes for a person to detect an unexpected stimulus, process it, and physically respond. It measures how quickly your brain and body communicate to take action.

Exactly, Sikadi couldn't react to the speed that was stated regardless of what speed it was. If her reaction speed would've scaled to it then she would've been able to avoid that.

How cannot an observer have a reaction?

I never said she doesn't have a reaction. I said her reaction time cannot be used for all those movements because she had nothing to react. Observer only observes and that's why i said black cat most likely meant perception timframe.

And for one last time being able to visualize something doesn't make you able to react to it.

Atp just quit arguing. WHAT WILL SHE REACT TO? AIR? WHY HER REACTION TIME IS RELEVANT WHEN THEY GUY'S THE ONE GETTING ATTACKED AND WAS SUPPOSED TO REACT BUT FAILED.

The funny thing is seeing you 'confidently' ask me about how the statement is unofficial.
Webtoons> any unofficial site.
It was written as inhumane balance in the WEBTOON.

How about i say that the 'official' translation is the one that's wrong? Well i can say that because I kinda can read Korean but lemne explain. Because not only it for some reason uses miles per hour instead of km/h that's used in the raws but also in many cases they change the words aswell. In that case even webtoons translation won't be considered fully reliable aswell unless raws are shown, which I'm gonna show.

"이, 이건 인간의 균형감각이 아니야"
This means: "This is not a human's sense of balance" or equilibrium

Or it basically means that: 'There's no way a normal human body should be able to keep its balance doing that.'

Which in this context means that he's able to keep up his movement speed even while moving like this on ice. His body shouldn't be able to control his movement speed, but he somehow still could, proving he has inhuman balance.

But regardless, none of it really disproves that his speed on ice was stated to be impossible to achieve as the girl with eyeglasses even stated that this level of speed on ice is impossible even for apostles(and also for Sikadi herself obviously):

"아무리 사도라도 저곳에서 움직이는건...불가능"
This means: "No matter if he's an Apostle, moving around over there is... impossible"

which basically means that no apostle can move at that speed on ice without loosing their balance. And since Sikadi was already stated to be the fastest in the verse only after Thaddeus, then if she can't dodge or react to him moving on ice where her own balance isn't affected then it just means that her reaction speed scales below 256 km/h because even Thaddeus needed to accelerate by going around walls to achieve that speed and only then he was unable to react. What it also means that Thaddeus is an outlier in speed and control among all apostles as even Peter could only beat him because he had more experience.

This should be enough ig.

Raphael says that if a person moves within 0.1s( note within meaning before 0.1s. ) then it would be considered predicting and disqualified by the jugde.
It was from the judge's view point (a normal human) that faster then 0.1s is impossible .
If 0 second reaction time doesn't prove absolute superiority over faster then 0.1s (be it a hyperbole) to you then consider rethinking.

"Be it a hyperbole"? If you're already accepting that it is a hyperbole then what asserts absolute superiority? Numbers can go lower than 0.1 too which Raphael also knows but is basically considering any numbers below 0.1 to be around 0 only as it's pretty much negligibly low at that point. Anyways ig I've given enough reasons on why it cannot be used.

Skadi reacts to Thaddeus's attack and precives it . Hence giving you the non official statement to work from .
The reason why she could defend that attack is she was injured by the strikes.

I never said she can't perceive it. I simply said she couldn't react, she couldn't even react in the image you showed me, so what's ur point?
Also wdym by "she was injured"? Why does it matter much, she just got hit by his attack and this doens't explain why she couldn't react. That's literally just a headcanon and vsbw doesn't work that way. Nowhere is it stated or shown that she was unable to react because she got hit prior, there not even slight implication for that. Also, Thaddeus literally states that 134 km/h was her TOP SPEED(There's no reason for Thaddeus to reffer only her top travel speed when they were about to fight, proving that both her topTS and CS her same) and she literally needed to break her limits to exceed that speed and even Thaddeus needed to accelerate on the walls to reach 256 km/h. Infact if she literally herself said that if she got hit by that speed, she would've gotten pulverized but she didn't previously proving that his previous attack had lower speed as it didn't defeated her right away.

Also when you said that the reason she couldn't react was because she was injured so even if i were to grant this reason then lemme tell you that she wouldn't be able to react even if she wasn't injured as the speed different for reaction blitz in vsbw is 1.1x to 1.2x and her top speed was 181 km/h meanwhile Thaddeus's speed was 256 km/h proving that it's even highet than 1.2x so it'd be a blitz either ways.

 

[FragrantJaguar150]

??? What are u even talking about? What prives the weight.

Sir, you have serious tracking issues. Please track my syllogism properly, that's why i don't wanna engage in an arguement with you. It was never just about combat or travel speed, it was about reaction speed. Regardless of what speed it is, she couldn't react to it, same with the attacks when he crashed into her.

Exactly, Sikadi couldn't react to the speed that was stated regardless of what speed it was. If her reaction speed would've scaled to it then she would've been able to avoid that.


I never said she doesn't have a reaction. I said her reaction time cannot be used for all those movements because she had nothing to react. Observer only observes and that's why i said black cat most likely meant perception timframe.

Atp just quit arguing. WHAT WILL SHE REACT TO? AIR? WHY HER REACTION TIME IS RELEVANT WHEN THEY GUY'S THE ONE GETTING ATTACKED AND WAS SUPPOSED TO REACT BUT FAILED.


How about i say that the 'official' translation is the one that's wrong? Well i can say that because I kinda can read Korean but lemne explain. Because not only it for some reason uses miles per hour instead of km/h that's used in the raws but also in many cases they change the words aswell. In that case even webtoons translation won't be considered fully reliable aswell unless raws are shown, which I'm gonna show.

"이, 이건 인간의 균형감각이 아니야"
This means: "This is not a human's sense of balance" or equilibrium

Or it basically means that: 'There's no way a normal human body should be able to keep its balance doing that.'

Which in this context means that he's able to keep up his movement speed even while moving like this on ice. His body shouldn't be able to control his movement speed, but he somehow still could, proving he has inhuman balance.

But regardless, none of it really disproves that his speed on ice was stated to be impossible to achieve as the girl with eyeglasses even stated that this level of speed on ice is impossible even for apostles(and also for Sikadi herself obviously):

"아무리 사도라도 저곳에서 움직이는건...불가능"
This means: "No matter if he's an Apostle, moving around over there is... impossible"

which basically means that no apostle can move at that speed on ice without loosing their balance. And since Sikadi was already stated to be the fastest in the verse only after Thaddeus, then if she can't dodge or react to him moving on ice where her own balance isn't affected then it just means that her reaction speed scales below 256 km/h because even Thaddeus needed to accelerate by going around walls to achieve that speed and only then he was unable to react. What it also means that Thaddeus is an outlier in speed and control among all apostles as even Peter could only beat him because he had more experience.

This should be enough ig.

"Be it a hyperbole"? If you're already accepting that it is a hyperbole then what asserts absolute superiority? Numbers can go lower than 0.1 too which Raphael also knows but is basically considering any numbers below 0.1 to be around 0 only as it's pretty much negligibly low at that point. Anyways ig I've given enough reasons on why it cannot be used.


I never said she can't perceive it. I simply said she couldn't react, she couldn't even react in the image you showed me, so what's ur point?
Also wdym by "she was injured"? Why does it matter much, she just got hit by his attack and this doens't explain why she couldn't react. That's literally just a headcanon and vsbw doesn't work that way. Also, Thaddeus literally states that 134 km/h was her TOP SPEED and she literally needed to break her limits to exceed that speed and even Thaddeus needed to accelerate on the walls to reach 256 km/h. Infact if she literally herself said that if she got hit by that speed, she would've gotten pulverized but she didn't previously proving that his previous attack had lower speed as it didn't defeated her right away.

Also when you said that the reason she couldn't react was because she was injured so even if i were to grant this reason then lemme tell you that she wouldn't be able to react even if she wasn't injured as the speed different for reaction blitz in vsbw is 1.1x to 1.2x and her top speed was 181 km/h meanwhile Thaddeus's speed was 256 km/h proving that it's even highet than 1.2x so it'd be a blitz either ways.

If so much don't try to even understand my words then yes you won't see any weight.

I am talking about everything. You are treating 256 km/hr as combat speed even though it is very much travel speed.

I am talking about the B-Rank calc. It is your fault you cannot track. You try to reply without properly understanding what the other person has to say.
If you cannot track such points then you should be the one quiting not me.
I should be the one " " to your points because first of all you don't want to read, second of all try to atleast understand or comprehend what the other person has to say.

About the translation.

Who are you to reject their translation?
It is atmost like it doesn't suit your narrative that's why you are using your own Ai translation or whatever.
I don't get it as to why being in mph or km/hr would change anything since they correspond to same values at the end.

Yeah, I won't be looking at your translation that you yourself did. What is the point of term "official" if every fan thinks their one is correct. I will not entertain your translation as I don't have to follow a fan-made translation

Define hyperbole.
Hyperbole is a figure of speech that uses deliberate exaggeration

0 reaction time is done to show far superiority over faster then 0.1s . It could be still 0.000000000000001s and still be considered better 0.1 to 0s.
What is your point and we don't know anything about the exact number. Your headcannons won't work.


You yourself here made a claim without proof.
Why is 131 km/hr her reaction speed?
Or combat speed?
I clarified at the top saying
Does running in circles count as anything other then travel speed? No right
You didn't answer it and contradicted yourself.
The verse treats gaining momentum as a way to increase Ap.

 

[Aksh_sky]

Combat speed is something else.
I can say the same to you. You only claimed how it is combat speed and never gave a reasonable argument on it being combat speed.

So what? Ik that combat speed are different, what about it? that was never my arguement. My arg is that her reaction speed scales below 256 km/h. And if u still can't track then I'll not continue this conversation further.

"You only claimed how it's combat speed"

Sir...i NEVER CLAIMED anything like that. You're genuinely annoying me now. My arg is that wether its CS or TS, it doens't matter as she couldn't react so her RS scales below it regardless of what speed it is. It's about RS not CS or TS, you're just bringing things up and making yourself look worse.

Again, unsubstantial affirmation + You couldn't even track properly on my arguements, you just stated it's for TS without a substance when it was clearly stated for all travel speed.

And none of my arguements are unsubstantial, infact you don't even know what 'unsubstantial affirmation' even means, you're just repeating it after me as if it's proving any of your negations. It's not making you look smart, trust me.

Also did you said i can't track. You're literally making up things i never even said in the first place then assuming that the things i never even said lacks substance. Genuinely stop arguing if you can't comprehend what's written over there.

"you just stated it's for TS without a substance when it was clearly stated for all travel speed."

First of all, i never said it's for TS, neither i was the one arguing regarding TS and second of all you're the one saying "clearly for all travel" but never proving why it's limited to ONLY travel speed.

And yeah, i won't be continuing this conversation with you anymore unless you bring some proper points, since it seems like you're not tracking my arguements at all.

 

[FragrantJaguar150]

So what? Ik that combat speed are different, what about it? that was never my arguement. My arg is that her reaction speed scales below 256 km/h. And if u still can't track then I'll not continue this conversation further.

"You only claimed how it's combat speed"

Sir...i NEVER CLAIMED anything like that. You're genuinely annoying me now. My arg is that wether its CS or TS, it doens't matter as she couldn't react so her RS scales below it regardless of what speed it is. It's about RS not CS or TS, you're just bringing things up and making yourself look worse.

And none of my arguements are unsubstantial, infact you don't even know what 'unsubstantial affirmation' even means, you're just repeating it after me as if it's proving any of your negations. It's not making you look smart, trust me.

Also did you said i can't track. You're literally making up things i never even said in the first place then assuming that the things i never even said lacks substance. Genuinely stop arguing if you can't comprehend what's written over there.

"you just stated it's for TS without a substance when it was clearly stated for all travel speed."

First of all, i never said it's for TS, neither i was the one arguing regarding TS and second of all you're the one saying "clearly for all travel" but never proving why it's limited to ONLY travel speed.

And yeah, i won't be continuing this conversation with you anymore unless you bring some proper points, since it seems like you're not tracking my arguements at all.

If you don't want to then don't.

I still haven't seen any points. I copy pasted your words just to reflect that you are the one making such claims.

You have only said " this is combat speed that is reaction speed " without telling me why is it that.
I gave you the link to the page for speed but you ignored it.

I don't have to be smart here since you never really presented anything to the table yourself.

You covered all the points that you thought was correct but did you once clarify how this is travel speed or combat speed?

 

[Aksh_sky]

I am talking about everything. You are treating 256 km/hr as combat speed even though it is very much travel speed.

See... you still can't track. I'm not treating it as either... I literally just said it.

I am talking about the B-Rank calc. It is your fault you cannot track. You try to reply without properly understanding what the other person has to say.
If you cannot track such points then you should be the one quiting not me.
I should be the one " " to your points because first of all you don't want to read, second of all try to atleast understand or comprehend what the other person has to say.

Has no relevant points to the discussion about the calc itself so I'll just be ignoring this.

Who are you to reject their translation?
It is atmost like it doesn't suit your narrative that's why you are using your own Ai translation or whatever.
I don't get it as to why being in mph or km/hr would change anything since they correspond to same values at the end.

Lol. This came out a little weird from your side but anyways. As long as translations aren't accurate, i can always object to it. They don't have any authority over the raws.

And no that's not AI, i can read Korean. Also assuming that even if it was AI, the context and substance wouldn't really change considerably.

Define hyperbole.
Hyperbole is a figure of speech that uses deliberate exaggeration

I'm not obliged to, since you've concessed that the semantic were symbolic of hyperverbal yourself. And you already defined it so...yeah ig.

Anyways yes, that's a hyperbole because reaction in 0 time is infinite speed and charecters with finite speed cannot land attacks on someone with infinite speed. It's that simple. Easy contradiction.

0 reaction time is done to show far superiority over faster then 0.1s . It could be still 0.000000000000001s and still be considered better 0.1 to 0s.
What is your point and we don't know anything about the exact number. Your headcannons won't work.

Will ignore this too since you've already concessed that the implication was hyperverbal.

You yourself here made a claim without proof.
Why is 131 km/hr her reaction speed?
Or combat speed?
I clarified at the top saying
Does running in circles count as anything other then travel speed? No right
You didn't answer it and contradicted yourself.
The verse treats gaining momentum as a way to increase Ap.

Again, I'll not repeat the same thing over and over. Ask this again and I'll simply ignore you.

 

[Aksh_sky]

You have only said " this is combat speed that is reaction speed " without telling me why is it that.

When?

I gave you the link to the page for speed but you ignored

I attended to all your arguments. And I've shown definitions myself in the OP.

I don't have to be smart here since you never really presented anything to the table yourself

This is a very laughable claim ngl then I'm the one making the whole OP and the syllogism with links embedded all over it.

You covered all the points that you thought was correct but did you once clarify how this is travel speed or combat speed?

Could be either. Why does it matter? No matter what it is, if u can't react to it then your RS scales below it, it's that simple. And yeah I've repeating it enough times.

If you don't want to then don't.

K then.

 

[FragrantJaguar150]

See... you still can't track. I'm not treating it as either... I literally just said it.


Has no relevant points to the discussion about the calc itself so I'll just be ignoring this.

Lol. This came out a little weird from your side but anyways. As long as translations aren't accurate, i can always object to it. They don't have any authority over the raws.

And no that's not AI, i can read Korean. Also assuming that even if it was AI, the context and substance wouldn't really change considerably.

I'm not obliged to, since you've concessed that the semantic were symbolic of hyperverbal yourself. And you already defined it so...yeah ig.

Anyways yes, that's a hyperbole because reaction in 0 time is infinite speed and charecters with finite speed cannot land attacks on someone with infinite speed. It's that simple. Easy contradiction.


Will ignore this too since you've already concessed that the implication was hyperverbal.


Again, I'll not repeat the same thing over and over. Ask this again and I'll simply ignore you.

Did you seriously read nothing?

Webtoons doesn't have authority over raw?
I get it that you are trying to mislead using unofficial be it Ai or not.
For series published on WEBTOON, the platform typically publishes with permission from the copyright holder (creator, studio, or publisher), so the WEBTOON version is an official licensed translation.
Unless there is actual mistake like spelling or completely different to the actual raw for example someone cannot react to the speed of sound but in the English it says light then yes you can try to oppose it but it is completely different here. There is nothing you as a fan can do to go against it.

Like I said your translation holds no power over official translation. A cruel reality you must admit.

Why cannot you track my arguments?
A hyperbole is done to exaggerate a feat by alot.
We will never know the actual value so infact the person who is building a head cannon is YOU not me.
I gave an example on how much the time could it be 0.001 to even 0.000000001s but we will never know.Saying it is not by much is a headcannon that you yourself entertained not me. So I should be the one ignoring it


I will not like to look into your points further and wait for a staff.
As all you choose to do it "ignore" and make "fan-made translation" to try to object a source that is considered official.

 

[WindyAttack]

So to start off with this crt, I'll get things straight that I'm here to well, as the title suggests, to debunk some bad Killer Peter calcs and downgrading the verse once again. And speaking of 'bad' KP calcs then ngl, just glancing at the speed page of the verse makes me realise how genuinely bad these calcs are. But I'll try to disprove all of them going in a descending order:

1) Thaddeus blitzed a Rank B Killer

So I'll go one by one debunking and proving why the assumptions that are used in the calcs are extremely wrong.

1. The assumption they used:
"For the timeframe, we will not use the Rank B assassin’s timeframe since it violates the Blitz rule. Instead, we will use a third-party reference, Yuna Lee. Yuna, who was observing, stated that she couldn’t keep up with the attacks. Although she is only a Rank D assassin, she is still far above a normal athlete. Therefore, we will use the maximum human reaction timeframe of an athlete, which is 0.1 seconds."

First of all, i suppose they meant perception timframe and not reaction timeframe because Yuna didn't really had anything to 'react' as she was literally just an observer, anyways, I'll assume that 0.1 second is perception speed that's used here.

Second of all, idk from where he got the idea that 'not being keeping up or tracking attacks' = 'not being able to perceive attacks'.

The whole base of the calc relies on an assumption that Yuna couldn't perceive any of those 8 attacks that he calced, meaning his attack was done within her perception timeframe, making her unable to see or process anything.

But here's a BIG issue, and to understand that we'll need to understand the definition of 'perception speed', so as per vsbw, perception time is:
"Perception speed refers to a character's ability to quickly process and understand sensory information. Unlike reaction speed, it's about the initial intake of data, not any subsequent actions, so perception speed doesn't encompass decision-making or actions beyond the initial sensory processing; characters with a perception speed higher than their reaction speed would be able to notice something without necessarily being able to dodge it."

So through this we can simply understand that 'perception timframe' is the timeframe of a charecter to mentally digest visual information or process it, basically. And perception blitzing or moving a certain distance within the timframe would simply mean that a set charecter moved in a certain distance before another charecter could even perceive or visualise the information.

Now, since we have the definition clear, we can go back to the statement used to justfiy perception blitz, which was "My eyes MAY not have been able to FOLLOW his movements" now I've already wrote the keywords in caps but all she said was that SHE WAS UNABLE TO FOLLOW HIS MOVEMENTS, infact not even 'was' just 'maybe was', and regardless not being able to follow movements doesn't imply that she had a completely inability to PERCEIVE his movements or all his movements and his 8 attacks. If I'm not able to follow the movement of a ball then that DOES NOT imply that I'm unable to perceive that ball. As visual perception means the brain’s ability to interpret what's visible meanwhile tracking is eyes’ ability to follow a moving object. They both are not AT ALL the same thing.

Moreover, if the text would had even REMOTELY implied that she was unable to perceive(which clearly isn't the case here) then that'll still not be considered, as Yuna WAS infact able to mentally digest those visual information and we were even shown those visualization and her observations disproving her complete inability to perceive, via her estimation of the number of attacks Thaddeus performed. And due to all those reasons, the usage of the perception timeframe of Yuna for Thaddeus's attacks won't be considered valid.

And even if you tried to argue that those other two dudes kinda implied they couldn't see anything then lemme tell you that those two guys are faster than Yuna and are gag charecters who are often shown unserious and they act dumb because they ARE dumb. They just said that what has hit him not because they were unable to see anything as they clearly saw one attack, but they just said it out of shock and the phrase 'what has hit him?' doens't even entails that they couldn't perceive it as that's just a way to show shock it exclamation. Because even if someone couldn't see, they can easily contextually figure out that what has hit them, which would be ofcourse a kick because they saw him do that earlier too, for example a solider would know that his ally is hit by a bullet just from the context regardless of he can perceive the bullet or not(which he ofcourse can't). And the fact that they clearly saw one attack of Thaddeus already disproves the usage of the 0.1 second timeframe for all his attacks, and yes that most likely means that they didn't payed attention properly like how Yuna did. So even if we say that they couldn't perceive and Yuna could then that'll still won't be usable, because them being faster yet unable to perceive would make incosnsistency which would at the end would just get redirected to the second possibility which says that they just didn't observed properly as compared to Yuna, which is consistent because they are gag charecters.

So yeah, the timeframe cannot be used.

2. Thaddeus's leg movements that are used in this calc for his kicks are extremely inflated as we don't even see him kick properly in that feat, infact we don't see anything at all summing everything into just assumption without proper justifications. For example, how this calc assumes that Thaddeus retracted his whole leg each time he kicks which again only relies on an assumption as he could've only just retracted his knees only to kick once again instead of his whole leg each time.
And also they just used 180° arc for each of Thaddeus's leg movements, also for...you guessed it...no reasons. Not only it's almost not humanly possible for someone to lifting their leg straight in front of them until it’s perfectly in line with their torso, even in case it's possible then it's just if they either lean their todso backwards or their position isn’t purely a strict front raise, but regardless they use their hand to assist unlike in this case where Thaddeus obviously didn't do that since he had his arms crossed and neither he moved his todso. This gets more closer to impossible and almost completely impossible if a full 180° arc is done by the leg backwards. So it's pretty obvious that not only the assumption for the 180° movement lacked substantial weight or justification but it's also pretty illogical for somone to move that way each time to kick a total of 8 times while looking in front and having their arm crossed while the guy being kicked is in the back. It’s not possible for him to move his leg 180 degrees for every single kick. He could move his leg 180 degrees to kick the opponent in the head. But to kick the shoulder, he would need to move his leg less than 180 degrees. To kick the stomach, he would need even less movement. And to kick the legs, he would need far less movement.

Overall, this calc is pretty bad, moving on to the next one.

2) Thaddeus counters a bunch of fodders

Again I'll go pointwise debunking this calc.

1. Again there's literally no justification provided on why 0.08 reaction seconds timeframe was used or why those random fodders are subsonic level and why were they unable to perceive all those attacks because reaction time deffinately cannot be used for all of them as Thaddeus obviously came at them one by one so reaction time won't really work for all his attacks on other individuals too... LITERALLY NOTHING was provided. Infact 0.1 second reaction time was compared with Thaddeus's own reaction time himself by Raphael.

But anyways, for some reason the high end was used even though DMUA never specified on which end should've been used so idk why this was added into the profile.

2. Again, same thing. The assumptions used for movements of kicks and the assumption for leg retraction. Even the person calcing it themself stated that they aren't sure on what the angles were YET they were just assuming angles for the kicks and all with no proper justifications and same goes with the justifications for leg retractions.

It's wayy safer to just use normal pixel lines, similar what Arthur Nando once used.

Anyways this should be enough to prove why this calc is bad too, now let's move on to one that's even worse.

3) Thaddeus counters Kageo

Same as others, I'll debunk it pointwise as it's one of the worst calcs here.

1. First of all, Thaddeus CLEARLY MOVED TO THE SIDE first to avoid the punch. So idk how this got accepted because the movement in the timeframe was already made when he moved aside and he punched AFTER moving aside. They assumed that while Kageo’s punch moved 0.124823m, Thaddeus moved his arm 1.2m during that same time and also retracted it back. But there's no evidence for that as in the next panel, we can clearly see that the punch traveled a much greater distance.

Thus the calc is invalid.

2. And also, the close punch evading rule DOES apply here as Thaddeus was faster than Kageo but not THAT faster than him as Kageo could clearly dodge Thaddeus's attacks and could even block multiple attacks from him before it landed, infact he could even land attacks on Thaddeus and could even copy Thaddeus's attacks and even was able to improve them.

So yeah, the close punch evading rule DOES APPLY.

Overall, this calc is also pretty bad so we'll move on the next one

4) Thaddeus blitzes Andreas

This one of the better calcs as it also has pretty good reasoning and i think it works but the only problem I see with it is that old angsizing formula is used because well... the calc is old. And average human reaction time should be used as I've already stated that Thaddeus's reaction time was compared to 0.1 seconds.

But i also believe that Thaddeus's full height should be used for angsizing and the new formula should be used.

Anyways, that'll be it for now

KP should be downgraded to subsonic and all these calcs should either be removed or fixed.

This gets even more consistent as I'll now write up the reasons why the KP verse shouldn't get pass subsonic:

P1: For Sikadi to land an attack on Thaddeus, she needed to push herself to the limit and move at 134 km/h, which means her usual speed is below 134 km/h.
Because it was even stated that previously, her TOP SPEED was only 134 km/h

P2: However, even at this speed, Thaddeus at 256 km/h was fast enough to completely outpace Sikadi, leaving her unable to react and take a hit from him.

P3: Judas said that Sikadi was the only one who matched up to the suppressed Thaddeus when moving below 134 km/h.

P4: Judas can be scaled up to Simon and the other apostles, so his claim should carry some weight when talking about the apostle scaling in general, both in their prime.

P5: Even if we assume that the 256 km/h feat does not reflect Thaddeus’ combat speed but rather his movement/travel speed, the fact is that Sikadi was clearly unable to react to Thaddeus’ movement at this speed before being hit. Whether it is called “combat speed” or “travel speed,” it does not affect anything as it still scales with perception and reaction speeds.

P6: Sikadi even stated that these kind of speeds aren't humanly possible as she's actually suprised and thinks that much speed isn't possible, neither she had ever made such made such comments before regarding anyone else and neither she ever showed this level of surprise. Which should prove that it isn't a general statement.

P7: Even Thaddeus's speed readings were spoken when he was clearly attacking which further adds consistency to my arguement.

C: Thus, the apostles would realistically scale below 134 km/h in reaction speed and around 256 km/h at best.

Therefore, the Killer Peter verse should be at best subsonic.

That'll be it for this thread.

Yea i pretty much agree with everything they should be down scaled to Superhuman to Subsonic level

 

[WindyAttack]

Did you seriously read nothing?

Webtoons doesn't have authority over raw?
I get it that you are trying to mislead using unofficial be it Ai or not.
For series published on WEBTOON, the platform typically publishes with permission from the copyright holder (creator, studio, or publisher), so the WEBTOON version is an official licensed translation.
Unless there is actual mistake like spelling or completely different to the actual raw for example someone cannot react to the speed of sound but in the English it says light then yes you can try to oppose it but it is completely different here. There is nothing you as a fan can do to go against it.

Like I said your translation holds no power over official translation. A cruel reality you must admit.

Why cannot you track my arguments?
A hyperbole is done to exaggerate a feat by alot.
We will never know the actual value so infact the person who is building a head cannon is YOU not me.
I gave an example on how much the time could it be 0.001 to even 0.000000001s but we will never know.Saying it is not by much is a headcannon that you yourself entertained not me. So I should be the one ignoring it


I will not like to look into your points further and wait for a staff.
As all you choose to do it "ignore" and make "fan-made translation" to try to object a source that is considered official.

Are you saying Weebtoons translation would always have to be reliable and cannot be wrong?

 

[FragrantJaguar150]

Are you saying Weebtoons translation would always have to be reliable and cannot be wrong?

Yes, it might be but who would I trust? A random guy or webtoons?
The logic is there.

 

[WindyAttack]

Yes, it might be but who would I trust? A random guy or webtoons?
The logic is there.

Yea this is genetic fallacy

 

[Aksh_sky]

Yes, it might be but who would I trust? A random guy or webtoons?
The logic is there.

Ye but the 'random guy' literally provided valid reasons and anology and why it's not always reliable. They literally even changed the units, they could've just kept the same units but they change the unit and also they change names, words and other things frequently. Webtoons is infact notorious for butchering names so idk why it doens't prove that webtoons translations are not always 100% reliable.

 

[FragrantJaguar150]

Ye but the 'random guy' literally provided valid reasons and anology and why it's not always reliable. They literally even changed the units, they could've just kept the same units but they change the unit and also they change names, words and other things frequently. Webtoons is infact notorious for butchering names so idk why it doens't prove that webtoons translations are not always 100% reliable.

Webtoons doesn't care about powerscaling and
Why would I trust you over people who are doing their jobs.
If I remember then they don't get paid for powerscaling.
Still doesn't matter because it is official and you have to go by it. You are not even a native speaker tbh.

Unless you go and complain it to webtoons. webtoons is not always wrong and much more reliable then you.

이, 이건 인간의 균형감각이 아니야
T-This isn't humanly possible balance."
Or
"No human should have this kind of balance."

The statement from Ravi's daughter
아무리 사도라도 저곳에서 움직이는건...불가능

No matter how powerful a Apostle (or expert) is, moving in that place... is impossible.

It doesn't even indicate the speed.
You are unfairly using your knowledge of Korean..

Seems very familiar to webtoons translation ngl.

This is why I wanted a staff involved.
Calling webtoons being unreliable just because they have the same speed in mph. Did they increase or decrease it ?
What is even wrong with it?

 

[FragrantJaguar150]

Yea this is genetic fallacy

On which basis?

I even translated it myself and the wording was same as webtoons or very similar to it.

 

[Aksh_sky]

Webtoons doesn't care about powerscaling and
Why would I trust you over people who are doing their jobs.
If I remember then they don't get paid for powerscaling.
Still doesn't matter because it is official and you have to go by it. You are not even a native speaker tbh.

Unless you go and complain it to webtoons. webtoons is not always wrong and much more reliable then you.

이, 이건 인간의 균형감각이 아니야
T-This isn't humanly possible balance."
Or
"No human should have this kind of balance."

The statement from Ravi's daughter
아무리 사도라도 저곳에서 움직이는건...불가능

No matter how powerful a Apostle (or expert) is, moving in that place... is impossible.

It doesn't even indicate the speed.
You are unfairly using your knowledge of Korean..

Seems very familiar to webtoons translation ngl.

This is why I wanted a staff involved.
Calling webtoons being unreliable just because they have the same speed in mph. Did they increase or decrease it ?
What is even wrong with it?

My translation weren't much different from what you've gotten. I was just explaining the context.

 

[FragrantJaguar150]

My translation weren't much different from what you've gotten. I was just explaining the context.

No you were using the wrong context. There is no proof saying that it was the balance needed for the speed.
It was simply the balance he had on the slippery floor that could allow him to move.

This in no way related to speed.

Supported by the statement from Ravi's daughter saying no apostle can move in that place.

The context you ' explain ' is wrong and the translation is very similar to webtoons .

 

[Aksh_sky]

No you were using the wrong context. There is no proof saying that it was the balance needed for the speed.

I've literally shown the scan of the daughter saying how he shouldn't be able to move on ice like that and Sikadi's statement and shock from his speed which holds enough contextual weight to imply that he shouldn't be able to maintain his balance on ice with such speed.

 

[FragrantJaguar150]

I've literally shown the scan of the daughter saying how he shouldn't be able to move on ice like that and Sikadi's statement and shock from his speed which holds enough contextual weight to imply that he shouldn't be able to maintain his balance on ice with such speed.

I think I have explained this enough.
Thaddues himself says that the key to not slipping is finding balance.
Just proves that it is about the part thaddues is even able to MOVE. Not speed

The daughter even clarfies it saying that it is impossible for an apostle to "move"

You are including the speed part for no reasons.

They are all shocked because of the way he is moving without slipping. There is nothing mentioned about the speed that puts it to extraordinary levels.
Skadi herself says that her top speed isn't the limit of humanity and further goes on saying " I can surpass limit of humanity" meaning she isn't even at the peak of humanity.
The WEBTOON one and the translation I did are completely same.

All of the mentioned speeds are travel speed no matter what.
As they are only done by guess what? Traveling across ice surface.
Skadi is able to react and perceive the attacks as well to the point of dropping a whole monologue about it.
The only reason she couldn't defend was because she was injured. This should be more then enough to shut down anything you have.

I guess I have already explained why the time frame for B-Rank calc works.
The distance is iffy but you need full leg distance to kick properly.

Thaddues is vastly above 0.1s due to Raphael introducing the concept of faster then 0.1s to only dwarf it completely. (Was not even by his perceptive but from a normal human. 0.1s or superhuman is perfectly fine as long as enough evidence is provided)

About the last feat. Andrew says that it happened before his nervous system could react. So maybe we could fix it according to it.

I agree with the rest to be removed or revised. Especially the kageo one


A staff involved here is much better then any of us as at the end it is their thoughts and approvel we need.

 

[Aksh_sky]

I think I have explained this enough.
Thaddues himself says that the key to not slipping is finding balance.
Just proves that it is about the part thaddues is even able to MOVE. Not speed

She talks about speed literally the very next panel btw.

Also regardless of what you've said, nothing there actually negates the conclusion of my syllogism as she either ways was shocked and couldn't react and this kind of speed was implicitly shown to not be possible.

 

[FragrantJaguar150]

She talks about speed literally the very next panel btw.

Also regardless of what you've said, nothing there actually negates the conclusion of my syllogism as she either ways was shocked and couldn't react and this kind of speed was implicitly shown to not be possible.

How much are you going to ignore?

She was shocked because of his balance on the floor and him not slipping like everyone.

At this point we even proved that both raw and official translation completely support that skadi was more shocked because of his balance on ice.

Buddy if she couldn't react then how did she have a monologue?

256 km/hr was travel speed and it is clear as day.

I don't know how you think your point still stands.
"Not shown to be possible" proceeds to say that a heavily restricted thaddues on ice surface and using walls to bounce off has a top speed of 256 km/hr.

Even if his balance is inhumane. His speed on normal grounds should still be abnormally faster.

The WEBTOON translation even says her normal speed is 131 km/hr (still travel speed) but She herself says that it was not the limits of humanity.
Meaning she could go further beyond that travel speed as well and so other apostles in normal grounds to.

Honestly speaking even travel speed might not be limited.

 

[Aksh_sky]

How much are you going to ignore?

She was shocked because of his balance on the floor and him not slipping like everyone.

At this point we even proved that both raw and official translation completely support that skadi was more shocked because of his balance on ice.

Buddy if she couldn't react then how did she have a monologue?

256 km/hr was travel speed and it is clear as day.

I don't know how you think your point still stands.
"Not shown to be possible" proceeds to say that a heavily restricted thaddues on ice surface and using walls to bounce off has a top speed of 256 km/hr.

Even if his balance is inhumane. His speed on normal grounds should still be abnormally faster.

The WEBTOON translation even says her normal speed is 131 km/hr (still travel speed) but She herself says that it was not the limits of humanity.
Meaning she could go further beyond that travel speed as well and so other apostles in normal grounds to.

Honestly speaking even travel speed might not be limited.

I've already told mant times and won't repeat that wether it's TS or CS, it doens't matter. Anyways, i lwk don't want this thread to be filled with your tracking issues so I'll drop the convo here.

 

[FragrantJaguar150]

I've already told mant times and won't repeat that wether it's TS or CS, it doens't matter. Anyways, i lwk don't want this thread to be filled with your tracking issues so I'll drop the convo here.

You are the one not tracking any arguments of mine .

I will drop it too as I don't want to deal with your 'tracking' issues as well.

I have said it many times . I will wait for a staff.

 

[Aksh_sky]

You are the one not tracking any arguments of mine .

I will drop it too as I don't want to deal with your 'tracking' issues as well.

what kinda reversal reply is this. Lol.

I have said it many times . I will wait for a staff.

Anyways, I agree. I'll wait for staffs and knowledgeable members to check ts out.

 

[WindyAttack]

what kinda reversal reply is this. Lol.

Anyways, I agree. I'll wait for staffs and knowledgeable members to check ts out.

Low Tiers are just usually like that

 

[Pyro9278]

If this is only about correcting calculations, then this belongs in the CGM discussion threads, not in content review.

 

[Aksh_sky]

If this is only about correcting calculations, then this belongs in the CGM discussion threads, not in content review.

It's both calc correct and downgraded. So i think it's fine.

 

[RetroBtw773yam]

1) Thaddeus blitzed a Rank B Killer

So I'll go one by one debunking and proving why the assumptions that are used in the calcs are extremely wrong.

1. The assumption they used:
"For the timeframe, we will not use the Rank B assassin’s timeframe since it violates the Blitz rule. Instead, we will use a third-party reference, Yuna Lee. Yuna, who was observing, stated that she couldn’t keep up with the attacks. Although she is only a Rank D assassin, she is still far above a normal athlete. Therefore, we will use the maximum human reaction timeframe of an athlete, which is 0.1 seconds."

First of all, i suppose they meant perception timframe and not reaction timeframe because Yuna didn't really had anything to 'react' as she was literally just an observer, anyways, I'll assume that 0.1 second is perception speed that's used here.

Second of all, idk from where he got the idea that 'not being keeping up or tracking attacks' = 'not being able to perceive attacks'.

The whole base of the calc relies on an assumption that Yuna couldn't perceive any of those 8 attacks that he calced, meaning his attack was done within her perception timeframe, making her unable to see or process anything.

But here's a BIG issue, and to understand that we'll need to understand the definition of 'perception speed', so as per vsbw, perception time is:
"Perception speed refers to a character's ability to quickly process and understand sensory information. Unlike reaction speed, it's about the initial intake of data, not any subsequent actions, so perception speed doesn't encompass decision-making or actions beyond the initial sensory processing; characters with a perception speed higher than their reaction speed would be able to notice something without necessarily being able to dodge it."

So through this we can simply understand that 'perception timframe' is the timeframe of a charecter to mentally digest visual information or process it, basically. And perception blitzing or moving a certain distance within the timframe would simply mean that a set charecter moved in a certain distance before another charecter could even perceive or visualise the information.

Now, since we have the definition clear, we can go back to the statement used to justfiy perception blitz, which was "My eyes MAY not have been able to FOLLOW his movements" now I've already wrote the keywords in caps but all she said was that SHE WAS UNABLE TO FOLLOW HIS MOVEMENTS, infact not even 'was' just 'maybe was', and regardless not being able to follow movements doesn't imply that she had a completely inability to PERCEIVE his movements or all his movements and his 8 attacks. If I'm not able to follow the movement of a ball then that DOES NOT imply that I'm unable to perceive that ball. As visual perception means the brain’s ability to interpret what's visible meanwhile tracking is eyes’ ability to follow a moving object. They both are not AT ALL the same thing.

Moreover, if the text would had even REMOTELY implied that she was unable to perceive(which clearly isn't the case here) then that'll still not be considered, as Yuna WAS infact able to mentally digest those visual information and we were even shown those visualization and her observations disproving her complete inability to perceive, via her estimation of the number of attacks Thaddeus performed. And due to all those reasons, the usage of the perception timeframe of Yuna for Thaddeus's attacks won't be considered valid.

And even if you tried to argue that those other two dudes kinda implied they couldn't see anything then lemme tell you that those two guys are faster than Yuna and are gag charecters who are often shown unserious and they act dumb because they ARE dumb. They just said that what has hit him not because they were unable to see anything as they clearly saw one attack, but they just said it out of shock and the phrase 'what has hit him?' doens't even entails that they couldn't perceive it as that's just a way to show shock it exclamation. Because even if someone couldn't see, they can easily contextually figure out that what has hit them, which would be ofcourse a kick because they saw him do that earlier too, for example a solider would know that his ally is hit by a bullet just from the context regardless of he can perceive the bullet or not(which he ofcourse can't). And the fact that they clearly saw one attack of Thaddeus already disproves the usage of the 0.1 second timeframe for all his attacks, and yes that most likely means that they didn't payed attention properly like how Yuna did. So even if we say that they couldn't perceive and Yuna could then that'll still won't be usable, because them being faster yet unable to perceive would make incosnsistency which would at the end would just get redirected to the second possibility which says that they just didn't observed properly as compared to Yuna, which is consistent because they are gag charecters.

So yeah, the timeframe cannot be used.

2. Thaddeus's leg movements that are used in this calc for his kicks are extremely inflated as we don't even see him kick properly in that feat, infact we don't see anything at all summing everything into just assumption without proper justifications. For example, how this calc assumes that Thaddeus retracted his whole leg each time he kicks which again only relies on an assumption as he could've only just retracted his knees only to kick once again instead of his whole leg each time.
And also they just used 180° arc for each of Thaddeus's leg movements, also for...you guessed it...no reasons. Not only it's almost not humanly possible for someone to lifting their leg straight in front of them until it’s perfectly in line with their torso, even in case it's possible then it's just if they either lean their todso backwards or their position isn’t purely a strict front raise, but regardless they use their hand to assist unlike in this case where Thaddeus obviously didn't do that since he had his arms crossed and neither he moved his todso. This gets more closer to impossible and almost completely impossible if a full 180° arc is done by the leg backwards. So it's pretty obvious that not only the assumption for the 180° movement lacked substantial weight or justification but it's also pretty illogical for somone to move that way each time to kick a total of 8 times while looking in front and having their arm crossed while the guy being kicked is in the back. It’s not possible for him to move his leg 180 degrees for every single kick. He could move his leg 180 degrees to kick the opponent in the head. But to kick the shoulder, he would need to move his leg less than 180 degrees. To kick the stomach, he would need even less movement. And to kick the legs, he would need far less movement.

Overall, this calc is pretty bad, moving on to the next one.

There's alot of things I want to address cause I find it to be a little bit of a downscale to much the first argument is kinda of a downfall because it really conflates someone being able to follow movement with someone actually perceiving every action homie that ignoring the context.

The calculations doesn't really require Yuna to be completely perception blitzed in the strictest sense it uses Yuns as a observer because the B rank assassin can't be under blitz standards, the whole purpose is to establish an upper hand bound for the timeframe not the claim that Yuna literally saw nothing.

For example if someone says they couldn't follow a boxers punch they are still perceiving the boxer. What they are saying is the sequence of movements exceeded their ability to constantly track each action, statements like this are frequently used as evidence that a sequence occurred within or near the observers perceptual limits and rhe question isn't whether Yuna could see Thaddeus attacks the question is whether she could constantly resolve the entire attack sequence, which she didn't.

You're basically saying that if yuna perceived anything then the perception timeframe cannot be used but that's not what the definition says it literally states that perception speed is the ability to process information it doesn't say that someone must perceive absolutely nothing before a perception timeframe becomes relevant

You can take this feat for example chapter 50 shows Thaddeus performing multiple technical transitions with a single attack sequence that Yuna along with Doko brothers failed to actually see or resolve correctly ot was never confirmed for Yuna to see the exact attacks correctly.


Yeah Yuna estimated the numbers of attacks but that doesn’t equal to someone fully processing each and every attacks correctly my guy , knowing that every attacks occurred is not the same as visually resolving every individual kick in real time there's a big difference people can recognize that someone threw a punch or kick without being able to identify each of it individually like Peter did. Likewise estimating that multiple attacks occured doesn't prove she tracked each movement that doesn't make any sense.

There are things you're trying to point out to have the verse including Thaddeus to be subsonic that doesn't go along with what the webtoon is actually presenting with all to respect.

1. Yuna perceived absolutely nothing

Or

1. She perceived everything perfectly

The scene doesn't show neither the only things it shows is Yuna recognizing that Thaddeus made multiple attacks but explicitly admits she could not properly follow those movements she completely failed to perceive those attacks. You're trying to dismiss this by saying there being comedic? How does that invalidate their observations? If the narrative wanted the audience to understand that Thaddeus's attacks overwhelmed the spectators, then their reactions still would've been to that event unless there is evidence that the scene is purely comedic.


As for the 180° arc you're correct that the kick requires justification however pointing out that one assumption may be to large doesn't automatically invalidate the calculation. If a leg was to travel 120 degrees instead of 180 degrees then the total distance should be reduced accordingly, that would produce a lower result actually but it wouldn't automatically have the feat at subsonic.
And your argument kinda assumes that Thaddeus barely retracts his leg between kicks that is also an assumption unless the artwork depicts the exact recovery motion.

2) Thaddeus counters a bunch of fodders

Again I'll go pointwise debunking this calc.

1. Again there's literally no justification provided on why 0.08 reaction seconds timeframe was used or why those random fodders are subsonic level and why were they unable to perceive all those attacks because reaction time deffinately cannot be used for all of them as Thaddeus obviously came at them one by one so reaction time won't really work for all his attacks on other individuals too... LITERALLY NOTHING was provided. Infact 0.1 second reaction time was compared with Thaddeus's own reaction time himself by Raphael.

But anyways, for some reason the high end was used even though DMUA never specified on which end should've been used so idk why this was added into the profile.

2. Again, same thing. The assumptions used for movements of kicks and the assumption for leg retraction. Even the person calcing it themself stated that they aren't sure on what the angles were YET they were just assuming angles for the kicks and all with no proper justifications and same goes with the justifications for leg retractions.

It's wayy safer to just use normal pixel lines, similar what Arthur Nando once used.

Anyways this should be enough to prove why this calc is bad too, now let's move on to one that's even worse.

For Thaddeus countering a bunch of fodder I'm really not understanding where you're coming from with this part if your argument every calculations relies on assumptions does it not? Pixel scaling assumes on perspective certain timeframes are estimated. You never bridged the gap in the part of the argument you literally just jumped to the conclusion that the entire calc is invalid. And are you trying to use Rachel's comparison to a 0.1 second reaction to cap Thaddeus’s speed? That completely ignores the entire logic of the statements because the narrator already introduced it an impressive feat to place Thaddeus above it.

3) Thaddeus counters Kageo

Same as others, I'll debunk it pointwise as it's one of the worst calcs here.

1. First of all, Thaddeus CLEARLY MOVED TO THE SIDE first to avoid the punch. So idk how this got accepted because the movement in the timeframe was already made when he moved aside and he punched AFTER moving aside. They assumed that while Kageo’s punch moved 0.124823m, Thaddeus moved his arm 1.2m during that same time and also retracted it back. But there's no evidence for that as in the next panel, we can clearly see that the punch traveled a much greater distance.

Thus the calc is invalid.

2. And also, the close punch evading rule DOES apply here as Thaddeus was faster than Kageo but not THAT faster than him as Kageo could clearly dodge Thaddeus's attacks and could even block multiple attacks from him before it landed, infact he could even land attacks on Thaddeus and could even copy Thaddeus's attacks and even was able to improve them.

So yeah, the close punch evading rule DOES APPLY.

Overall, this calc is also pretty bad so we'll move on the next one

1. The Panels doesn't look like it establishes that you said Thaddeus moved to the side first and punch afterwards? That's not what's being shown, what's actually being shown is Kageo throwing a punch and Thaddeus shifting his positioning as he counters it isn't really showing us that the sidestep finished completely, then an entirely separate action just started. Certain counterattack often occur with evasive movement and some fighters can slip a punch while launching a counter they can both be part of the same exchange.

You have to prove that the sidestep and counter are temporarily separate actions youngest asserting that they are isn't enough proof. And if the scene is specifically showing Thaddeus countering Kageo strike then invoking the CLOSE RANGE punch rule requires proving the feat is impossible to interpret as a genuine reaction feat, just because Kagel was able to Thaddeus in the beginning doesn't prove that. Kageo blocked, dodged, and hit Thaddeus OK that's cool but logic doesn't follow characters can relative without being equal and throughout the fight Kageo literally admitted that Thaddeus was way to fast and couldn't even touch Thaddeus. So using Kageo earlier performance against Thaddeus as proof that every exchange must be invalid is not justified.

This gets even more consistent as I'll now write up the reasons why the KP verse shouldn't get pass subsonic:

P1: For Sikadi to land an attack on Thaddeus, she needed to push herself to the limit and move at 134 km/h, which means her usual speed is below 134 km/h.
Because it was even stated that previously, her TOP SPEED was only 134 km/h

P2: However, even at this speed, Thaddeus at 256 km/h was fast enough to completely outpace Sikadi, leaving her unable to react and take a hit from him.

P3: Judas said that Sikadi was the only one who matched up to the suppressed Thaddeus when moving below 134 km/h.

P4: Judas can be scaled up to Simon and the other apostles, so his claim should carry some weight when talking about the apostle scaling in general, both in their prime.

P5: Even if we assume that the 256 km/h feat does not reflect Thaddeus’ combat speed but rather his movement/travel speed, the fact is that Sikadi was clearly unable to react to Thaddeus’ movement at this speed before being hit. Whether it is called “combat speed” or “travel speed,” it does not affect anything as it still scales with perception and reaction speeds.

P6: Sikadi even stated that these kind of speeds aren't humanly possible as she's actually suprised and thinks that much speed isn't possible, neither she had ever made such made such comments before regarding anyone else and neither she ever showed this level of surprise. Which should prove that it isn't a general statement.

P7: Even Thaddeus's speed readings were spoken when he was clearly attacking which further adds consistency to my arguement.

C: Thus, the apostles would realistically scale below 134 km/h in reaction speed and around 256 km/h at best.

Dude one of the first major issues is your interpretation of Skadi's speed statement cause your trying to treat 134km/h as a hard cap on Skadi's overall capabilities, the statement is framed around Thaddeus catching her while she is moving at a certain speed which was 181km /h and there's a big difference between referencing a speed in a specific and establishing an absolute limit for a character movements reaction or combat speed. And as for Thaddeus’s 256 km/h feat even if we grant the panel is referring to travel speed your conclusion still isn't following because travel speed, combat speed, reaction + perception speed are separate categories. You can have a whole character like Manager kim for example to react faster to something significantly faster than they can physically travel, likewise someone can perform attakcs faster than their running speed, therefore even if skadi failed to react to Thaddeus movement the only conclusion that can be made is thag Thaddeus was faster then her exchange nothing in tgat establishes that it's a cap on her reaction speed nor does it establish a cap on the Apostle in the series dawg.

You claimed that Judas said that Skadi was the only person capable of matching suppressed Thaddeus below 134 km/h but that isn't what the scene says.

It says that Judas was surprised because there was someone other then Thaddeus who could move at such a speed these are completely different statements.

You're basically trying to argue that because Skadi was surprised and considered such speed this proves that the verse caps below subsonic? This doesn't follow at all. Characters react literally react to disbelief if they see someone faster or stronger or more skilled than expected that's literally just a narrative reaction Skadi being shocked by Thaddeus doesn't prove that the enitre Apostles hierarchy caps at subsonic

 

[FragrantJaguar150]

There's alot of things I want to address cause I find it to be a little bit of a downscale to much the first argument is kinda of a downfall because it really. conflates someone being able to follow movement with someone actually perceiving every action homie that ignoring the context.

The calculations doesn't really require Yuna to be completely perception blitzed in the strictest sense it uses Yuns as a observer because the B rank assassin can't be under blitz standards, the whole purpose is to establish an upper hand bound for the timeframe not the claim that Yuna literally saw nothing.

For example if someone says they couldn't follow a boxers punch they are still perceiving the boxer. What they are saying is the sequence of movements exceeded their ability to constantly track each action, statements like this are frequently used as evidence that a sequence occurred within or near the observers perceptual limits and rhe question isn't whether Yuna could see Thaddeus attacks the question is whether she could constantly resolve the entire attack sequence, which she didn't.

You're basically saying that if yuna perceived anything then the perception timeframe cannot be used but that's not what the definition says it literally states that perception speed is the ability to process information it doesn't say that someone must perceive absolutely nothing before a perception timeframe becomes relevant

You can take this feat for example chapter 50 shows Thaddeus performing multiple technical transitions with a single attack sequence that Yuna along with Doko brothers failed to actually see or resolve correctly ot was never confirmed for Yuna to see the exact attacks correctly.


Yeah Yuna estimated the numbers of attacks but that doesn’t equal to someone fully processing each and every attacks correctly my guy , knowing that every attacks occurred is not the same as visually resolving every individual kick in real time there's a big difference people can recognize that someone threw a punch or kick without being able to identify each of it individually like Peter did. Likewise estimating that multiple attacks occured doesn't prove she tracked each movement that doesn't make any sense.

There are things you're trying to point out to have the verse including Thaddeus to be subsonic that doesn't go along with what the webtoon is actually presenting with all to respect.

1. Yuna perceived absolutely nothing

Or

1. She perceived everything perfectly

The scene doesn't show neither the only things it shows is Yuna recognizing that Thaddeus made multiple attacks but explicitly admits she could not properly follow those movements she completely failed to perceive those attacks. You're trying to dismiss this by saying there being comedic? How does that invalidate their observations? If the narrative wanted the audience to understand that Thaddeus's attacks overwhelmed the spectators, then their reactions still would've been to that event unless there is evidence that the scene is purely comedic.


As for the 180° arc you're correct that the kick requires justification however pointing out that one assumption may be to large doesn't automatically invalidate the calculation. If a leg was to travel 120 degrees instead of 180 degrees then the total distance should be reduced accordingly, that would produce a lower result actually but it wouldn't automatically have the feat at subsonic.
And your argument kinda assumes that Thaddeus barely retracts his leg between kicks that is also an assumption unless the artwork depicts the exact recovery motion.


For Thaddeus countering a bunch of fodder I'm really not understanding where you're coming from with this part if your argument every calculations relies on assumptions does it not? Pixel scaling assumes on perspective certain timeframes are estimated. You never bridged the gap in the part of the argument you literally just jumped to the conclusion that the entire calc is invalid. And are you trying to use Rachel's comparison to a 0.1 second reaction to cap Thaddeus’s speed? That completely ignores the entire logic of the statements because the narrator already introduced it an impressive feat to place Thaddeus above it.

1. The Panels doesn't look like it establishes that you said Thaddeus moved to the side first and punch afterwards? That's not what's being shown, what's actually being shown is Kageo throwing a punch and Thaddeus shifting his positioning as he counters it isn't really showing us that the sidestep finished completely, then an entirely separate action just started. Certain counterattack often occur with evasive movement and some fighters can slip a punch while launching a counter they can both be part of the same exchange.

You have to prove that the sidestep and counter are temporarily separate actions youngest asserting that they are isn't enough proof. And if the scene is specifically showing Thaddeus countering Kageo strike then invoking the CLOSE RANGE punch rule requires proving the feat is impossible to interpret as a genuine reaction feat, just because Kagel was able to Thaddeus in the beginning doesn't prove that. Kageo blocked, dodged, and hit Thaddeus OK that's cool but logic doesn't follow characters can relative without being equal and throughout the fight Kageo literally admitted that Thaddeus was way to fast and couldn't even touch Thaddeus. So using Kageo earlier performance against Thaddeus as proof that every exchange must be invalid is not justified.




Dude one of the first major issues is your interpretation of Skadi's speed statement cause your trying to treat 134km/h as a hard cap on Skadi's overall capabilities, the statement is framed around Thaddeus catching her while she is moving at a certain speed which was 181km /h and there's a big difference between referencing a speed in a specific and establishing an absolute limit for a character movements reaction or combat speed. And as for Thaddeus’s 256 km/h feat even if we grant the panel is referring to travel speed your conclusion still isn't following because travel speed, combat speed, reaction + perception speed are separate categories. You can have a whole character like Manager kim for example to react faster to something significantly faster than they can physically travel, likewise someone can perform attakcs faster than their running speed, therefore even if skadi failed to react to Thaddeus movement the only conclusion that can be made is thag Thaddeus was faster then her exchange nothing in tgat establishes that it's a cap on her reaction speed nor does it establish a cap on the Apostle in the series dawg.

You claimed that Judas said that Skadi was the only person capable of matching suppressed Thaddeus below 134 km/h but that isn't what the scene says.

It says that Judas was surprised because there was someone other then Thaddeus who could move at such a speed these are completely different statements.

You're basically trying to argue that because Skadi was surprised and considered such speed this proves that the verse caps below subsonic? This doesn't follow at all. Characters react literally react to disbelief if they see someone faster or stronger or more skilled than expected that's literally just a narrative reaction Skadi being shocked by Thaddeus doesn't prove that the enitre Apostles hierarchy caps at subsonic

Not a very bright argument tbh.


If you can perceive an object then how can it be beyond perception itself?
What you are describing is reaction time.
The calculation doesn't need to follow Yuna as D-rank brothers are completely perception blitzed here.
Yuna is even acknowledged by peter for her perception speed .
The 3 of them are not comparable in perception and doesn't create inconsistency. Regardless timeframe is fine but your points slightly didn't make sense.

The other calcs should be fixed. Andrew one is very confusing as Andrew states that even pain didn't register.
Maybe we can find a suitable timeframe for it.

I do admit that the OP is confusing travel speed and combat speed/ reaction speed.

1) These are all travel speeds at their core.

2) Judas and skadi part really makes me wonder if OP even knows what they are talking about. Judas makes a point that skadi is as fast as previous thaddues . That would just be travel speed and there is no proof that she is traveling below 131 km/hr . Might be faster just because 131km/hr is base speed of skadi as stated in the official translation.

3) Travel speed isn't even restricted here. The main standing point of this entire downgrade is Skadi couldn't react to 256 km/hr which is proven wrong because she was able to drop a monologue. Other then that there is no clear indications that 256 km/hr is combat speed neither impressive by any means. Skadi only displayed visible shock to his balance not the speed.

This should cover everything that the 'downgrade' had to offer.

 

[RetroBtw773yam]

Not a very bright argument tbh.


If you can perceive an object then how can it be beyond perception itself?
What you are describing is reaction time.
The calculation doesn't need to follow Yuna as D-rank brothers are completely perception blitzed here.
Yuna is even acknowledged by peter for her perception speed .
The 3 of them are not comparable in perception and doesn't create inconsistency. Regardless timeframe is fine but your points slightly didn't make sense.

The other calcs should be fixed. Andrew one is very confusing as Andrew states that even pain didn't register.
Maybe we can find a suitable timeframe for it.

I do admit that the OP is confusing travel speed and combat speed/ reaction speed.

1) These are all travel speeds at their core.

2) Judas and skadi part really makes me wonder if OP even knows what they are talking about. Judas makes a point that skadi is as fast as previous thaddues . That would just be travel speed and there is no proof that she is traveling below 131 km/hr . Might be faster just because 131km/hr is base speed of skadi as stated in the official translation.

3) Travel speed isn't even restricted here. The main standing point of this entire downgrade is Skadi couldn't react to 256 km/hr which is proven wrong because she was able to drop a monologue. Other then that there is no clear indications that 256 km/hr is travel speed neither impressive by any means. Skadi only displayed visible shock to his balance not the speed.

This should cover everything that the 'downgrade' had to offer.

I think were in a agreement about the CRT but l want to clarify what I'm saying and actually trying to argue cause I think there's a misunderstanding. The point isn't that yuna was literally perception blitzed to the extent that she saw absolutley nothing, that would honestly be a stronger claim than what the calc actually needs.

The calc only requires that Thaddeu's attack sequence exceeded her ability to continuously resolve and follow each individual movement that exactly what she says, there's a big difference between recognizing that multiple attacks occured and visullay resolving every kick in real time, which is why I used the boxer as an example I can percieve the boxer and I can tell he the several punches yet still can't individually track every punch.

Which is why this logic applies to Yuna because she estimated that multiple attacks but she explicity questioned whether her eyes even followed the movements. Those two facts are not contradictory, estimating a sequence after observing it doesn't prove she visually processed every indiviual kick. Also I will agree that the Doko brothers arent necessarily compared to yuna. Peter himself praises Yuna's observational ability so I don't scale their perception equally, but my point was simply that multiple observers in the scene failed to properly resolve what Thaddeus actually did which reinforces the narrative that the attack exceed ordinary visual tracking. And regarding the downgrade itself it confuses travel speed with combat speed. Judas statement about Skadi is clearly referring to movement speed, not reaction speed, and Thaddeus speedometer reading is also tied to movement those statement cannot be used to cap Apostles combat or reaction speed because their describing different speed categories, but anyways the crt is basically treating 131km/h as id it were Skadi's absolute ceiling but the manga doesn't establish that because Thaddeus asks whether he can her at the speed it's not a cap on there speed

 

[FragrantJaguar150]

I think were in a agreement about the CRT but l want to clarify what I'm saying and actually trying to argue cause I think there's a misunderstanding. The point isn't that yuna was literally perception blitzed to the extent that she saw absolutley nothing, that would honestly be a stronger claim than what the calc actually needs.

The calc only requires that Thaddeu's attack sequence exceeded her ability to continuously resolve and follow each individual movement that exactly what she says, there's a big difference between recognizing that multiple attacks occured and visullay resolving every kick in real time, which is why I used the boxer as an example I can percieve the boxer and I can tell he the several punches yet still can't individually track every punch.

Which is why this logic applies to Yuna because she estimated that multiple attacks but she explicity questioned whether her eyes even followed the movements. Those two facts are not contradictory, estimating a sequence after observing it doesn't prove she visually processed every indiviual kick. Also I will agree that the Doko brothers arent necessarily compared to yuna. Peter himself praises Yuna's observational ability so I don't scale their perception equally, but my point was simply that multiple observers in the scene failed to properly resolve what Thaddeus actually did which reinforces the narrative that the attack exceed ordinary visual tracking. And regarding the downgrade itself it confuses travel speed with combat speed. Judas statement about Skadi is clearly referring to movement speed, not reaction speed, and Thaddeus speedometer reading is also tied to movement those statement cannot be used to cap Apostles combat or reaction speed because their describing different speed categories, but anyways the crt is basically treating 131km/h as id it were Skadi's absolute ceiling but the manga doesn't establish that because Thaddeus asks whether he can her at the speed it's not a cap on there speed

Still doubt your explanation of perception time but I would rather not dwell on it.
We can ignore yuna and use the perception time of the D-Rank brothers.
Which should solve the problem entirely.

 

[RetroBtw773yam]

Still doubt your explanation of perception time but I would rather not dwell on it.
We can ignore yuna and use the perception time of the D-Rank brothers.
Which should solve the problem entirely.

Well I don't really necessarily disagree that using the D rank brothers could be a better choice than Yuna, but my issue is that changing the observer doesn't automatically justify the timeframe, like replacing Yuna with the Doko brothers only changes the first assumption it doesn't prove the second one, you'd still need evidence that their perception timeframe should be treated 0.1 seconds they're trained assassins not ordinary athletes so using peak perception human perception as default is itself an assumption unless the calc intentionally lowballs them.

So I don't think the calc automatically becomes valid just by swapping observers it still need a justified timeframe.

 

[FragrantJaguar150]

Well I don't really necessarily disagree that using the D rank brothers could be a better choice than Yuna, but my issue is that changing the observer doesn't automatically justify the timeframe, like replacing Yuna with the Doko brothers only changes the first assumption it doesn't prove the second one, you'd still need evidence that their perception timeframe should be treated 0.1 seconds they're trained assassins not ordinary athletes so using peak perception human perception as default is itself an assumption unless the calc intentionally lowballs them.

So I don't think the calc automatically becomes valid just by swapping observers it still need a justified timeframe.

I don't get what you are trying to say?

Both will use a timeframe of 0.1s

Yuna debatably have 0.08s or even D-rank brothers could use that timeframe but we are using 0.1s as somewhat of a safe end.
Doesn't really change the calculation regardless of which observer we are using.

What are you trying to say? Going by your words then are you perhaps trying to invalidate the supersonic calc?