Reinhard van Astrea Vs. Sasuke Uchiha

[Hercules1125]

Yup, his genjutsu is above something like tsukyomi that can warp space, time and create an entire dimension in a mind. Allow someone to experience 3 days in seconds and torture and repeat the same scene over and over again for hundreds of thousands of time. Extract info, control the body, read memories ..I can keep going.

Firstly just because it's above Tsukuyomi doesn't necessitate that it has all of the same abilities, things such as subtulty, chakra use and duration are all factors which play into the duration of a Jutsu and its efficiency, secondly, how do we know that it warps space and time as actual entities rather than warping individual perception?

 

[Hercules1125]

I know why I asked this and I was right. He doesn't have some type of conceptual resistance. He resisted the source "authority" , so the effect "mind manipulation" went away. Which means in a normal settings he still gets ****** by mind manipulation

Reinhard resisted both the source authority and its effects. Soulwashing is conceptual manipulation by virtue of what authorities are, and the effects born from it are also just manipulation of concepts. Reinhard resisted them through his own mental strength, meaning that other types of mind manipulation, which do not work at the conceptual level and lack the same potency, would need to have an argument provided for them

I'm reading the power null and it's about unravelling magic and his relationship with "gate" in rezero. There's nothing even remotely close to that in Naruto for it to be equalised so it's straight up useless. It won't affect chakra.

There's a difference between reading scans off VSBW and reading the actual series, characters in Naruto perform jutsu through combining both their physical and spiritual energies, both of these are composed of Mana within Re:Zero's metaphysics, meaning that Reinhard is capable of directly affecting both spiritual and mental energy within the world, he doesn't just take it from peoples gates but also the environment and atmospheric mana, meaning the chakra sent from Sasuke's eyes into Reinhard would be absorbed and then become useless, and the chakra he conjures within himself would also be, not to mention again: If you don't equalise the two, Genjutsu doesn't work.

How exactly is magic and mana going to be equalised for this to work? Do you believe they are similar enough?

Mana comprises physical and mental energies. Chakra is made as a combination of the two; if anything, chakra would be a subset, but I'm even fine with granting the dissimilarity. If you steelman that Chakra =/= Mana, your genjutsu point dies.

You're also going to have to explain what impairment means.

What has ishikki and jigen got to do with this? Hope you know this match up is Ems Sasuke right?

That doesn't matter unless you think there is a significant difference in terms of how he fights or how his genjutsu works. Logically, if his genjutsu has become stronger, then he would have tried to do it against either of them, yet he did not. Against Madara the same is also true, or Juubito, the fact is that against opponents who are comparable to Sasuke in strength, he does not use Genjutsu as an option.

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

Chakra is similar enough to mana to be verse equalized, Od and Chakra however are the ones that can't be equalized

Chakra is your soul/mind/genetic information, mana is more similar to nature energy

Then you have no argument to make for Genjutsu working, seeing as it works by manipulating the flow of Chakra within other parties.

Not how it works because chakra is soul and mind which is sent into the opponents via eye contact by doujutsu. It doesn’t need chakra flow to work cuz if you have a soul/mind/nervous system yo will be affected

 

[Hercules1125]

Chakra is your soul/mind/genetic information, mana is more similar to nature energy

This isn't true; we know from Nagato that you can drain someone's Chakra without draining their soul, which is why the Preta path doesn't absorb people's souls like the human path. Why did you even make this argument? Furthermore arguing that it's genetic information is silly, your genetic information creates the physical energy, but it is not identical to it, you're confusing causal reducability with identity.

Not how it works because chakra is soul and mind which is sent into the opponents via eye contact by doujutsu. It doesn’t need chakra flow to work cuz if you have a soul/mind/nervous system yo will be affected

This is begging the question: show me once where it's stated that Chakra comprises your soul and that, when Genjutsu is used, it sends the soul into you? Because we have a direct statement from Sakura that Chakra is SPIRITUAL. MENTAL and PHYSICAL energy. If it is spiritual/mental energy, it cannot be identical to the soul itself unless you argue that the soul itself is identical to the energy which it creates, which is silly.

 

[Crimsonobu]

How exactly is magic and mana going to be equalised for this to work? Do you believe they are similar enough?

You're also going to have to explain what impairment means.

Impairment refers to any thing that hinders the user but it doesn't really matter because it says "by any outside influence" whether "enhancement" or "impairment". The character who had this ability was completely immune to brainwashing, sensory deprivation, and etc. They didn't just have high resistance to the ability, the ability itself didn't work.

It's shown magic, divine Protection, evil eye (a clan where everyone awakens a magical eye ability) and etc are not working on the user. Abilities that increased the user stats also doesn't work on individuals with this divine Protection.

Wouldn't Sasuke have to have some kind of immunity negation to bypass this?

 

[Hercules1125]

Impairment refers to any thing that hinders the user but it doesn't really matter because it says "by any outside influence" whether "enhancement" or "impairment". The character who had this ability was completely immune to brainwashing, sensory deprivation, and etc. They didn't just have high resistance to the ability, the ability itself didn't work.

It's shown magic, divine Protection, evil eye (a clan where everyone awakens a magical eye ability) and etc are not working on the user. Abilities that increased the user stats also doesn't work on individuals with this divine Protection.

Wouldn't Sasuke have to have some kind of immunity negation to bypass this?

Rinnegan users like Pain, who are arguably stronger than EMS Sasuke, are still susceptible to genjutsu; there has been no shown instance of Sasuke's genjutsu affecting somebody who explicitly does not meet his eyes, that's literally the whole way Kabuto counterred him in their fight

 

[karo_senpaii]

Firstly just because it's above Tsukuyomi doesn't necessitate that it has all of the same abilities, things such as subtulty, chakra use and duration are all factors which play into the duration of a Jutsu and its efficiency, secondly, how do we know that it warps space and time as actual entities rather than warping individual perception?

Uh no we get a direct statement that Sasuke had surpassed Itachi, chakra use and duration is irrelevant. It is just a difference of how much chakra Sasuke would use up and that's fine, it won't change the abilities.
Also don't ask me "how do we know", I know coz it's on Itachi's profile

Reinhard resisted both the source authority and its effects. Soulwashing is conceptual manipulation by virtue of what authorities are, and the effects born from it are also just manipulation of concepts. Reinhard resisted them through his own mental strength, meaning that other types of mind manipulation, which do not work at the conceptual level and lack the same potency, would need to have an argument provided for them

THis rule doesn't exist. That's like saying since I have resistance to conceptual manipulation and as such even if someone is manipulating the concept of fire and I'm fine, it also means normal fire can't burn me. That wrong.

Let me take it a step further. Say someone is the concept of fire itself. It means the person has authority over any fire type. Does that mean that any fire the person produces is conceptual? Absolutely not. If that's the case then we won't even have normal abilities, it would mean that a creator and it's creation would have the same properties and as such we'd even have conceptual atoms.

Put it plainly , he'd still need to overcome the layers of normal mind manipulation.

There's a difference between reading scans off VSBW and reading the actual series, characters in Naruto perform jutsu through combining both their physical and spiritual energies, both of these are composed of Mana within Re:Zero's metaphysics, meaning that Reinhard is capable of directly affecting both spiritual and mental energy within the world, he doesn't just take it from peoples gates but also the environment and atmospheric mana, meaning the chakra sent from Sasuke's eyes into Reinhard would be absorbed and then become useless, and the chakra he conjures within himself would also be, not to mention again: If you don't equalise the two, Genjutsu doesn't work.

This isn't even relevant . It is only when trying to bypass eye contact that chakra is infused for genjutsu. Normal genjutsu doesn't do all this, it just takes control of your senses, mind, brain, nervous system. There's no chakra to be absorbed

Mana comprises physical and mental energies. Chakra is made as a combination of the two; if anything, chakra would be a subset, but I'm even fine with granting the dissimilarity. If you steelman that Chakra =/= Mana, your genjutsu point dies.

G enjutsu works even if the other parties power system is stone itself on the wiki here It's irrelevant for equalisation.

There are too many similarities in rezero mana and chakra for it to work. On the surface it seems fine but once you go deeper you'd see the mechanics are so different

That doesn't matter unless you think there is a significant difference in terms of how he fights or how his genjutsu works. Logically, if his genjutsu has become stronger, then he would have tried to do it against either of them, yet he did not. Against Madara the same is also true, or Juubito, the fact is that against opponents who are comparable to Sasuke in strength, he does not use Genjutsu as an option.

What are you talking about? All the people you keep mentioning have complete resistance to genjutsu up to Sasuke level, it's on all of their profiles.

Did you expect Sasuke to use genjutsu against obito and madara with their rinnengan and rinnesharingan?
Or otsusuki with their resistance to IT?

 

[Crimsonobu]

Rinnegan users like Pain, who are arguably stronger than EMS Sasuke, are still susceptible to genjutsu; there has been no shown instance of Sasuke's genjutsu affecting somebody who explicitly does not meet his eyes, that's literally the whole way Kabuto counterred him in their fight

Does being susceptible to genjutsu mean anything? I thought genjutsu just scales to the user so isn't it important who cast it?

 

[Hercules1125]

Uh no we get a direct statement that Sasuke had surpassed Itachi, chakra use and duration is irrelevant. It is just a difference of how much chakra Sasuke would use up and that's fine, it won't change the abilities.
Also don't ask me "how do we know", I know coz it's on Itachi's profile

You're confused, nobody was contesting whether or not Sasuke has surpassed Itachi, the question is in what metric and why exactly that neccessitates that he should now be above him in terms of Genjutsu rather than overall combat ability, and explaining to you that there are multiple different metrics which you can use to judge somebody's ability with Genjutsu rather than just "Oh he can manipulate space and time bro duhh" because that claim is unsupported. We even see Frog Song, which is stated to be the strongest Genjutsu used, and it doesn't have the same abilities as Tsukuyomi

THis rule doesn't exist. That's like saying since I have resistance to conceptual manipulation and as such even if someone is manipulating the concept of fire and I'm fine, it also means normal fire can't burn me. That wrong.

Let me take it a step further. Say someone is the concept of fire itself. It means the person has authority over any fire type. Does that mean that any fire the person produces is conceptual? Absolutely not. If that's the case then we won't even have normal abilities, it would mean that a creator and it's creation would have the same properties and as such we'd even have conceptual atoms.

If somebody is literally the concept of fire, any fire which is created by them would just be an extension of who they are, if I am a being who is composed of human DNA, any part of by body which I produce will also prema facie possess the same human dna and genetic makeup that I do, it's the same here, authorities create effects and have effects by manipulating a concept of the world, that's what authorities do, so if an authority is being used, that is what it's doing.

Put it plainly , he'd still need to overcome the layers of normal mind manipulation.

You haven't established why there are layers, but also he still gets diffed by Kabuto, literally turning his eyes off to the extent that Itachi literally needs Izanami to be capable of affecting it, no matter how many layers of genjutsu you try to argue for him, so long as he gets eye-shut-diffed, then it literally means nothing even disregarding the fact that there have been no layers established.

This isn't even relevant . It is only when trying to bypass eye contact that chakra is infused for genjutsu. Normal genjutsu doesn't do all this, it just takes control of your senses, mind, brain, nervous system. There's no chakra to be absorbed

This is never stated; you cannot show me a single statement from any character in the series that says Chakra is only infused into Genjutsu to bypass the eye contact barrier. This doesn't even make sense narratively, because are you trying to imply that Itachi is a moron who didn't think of infusing his genjutsu with Chakra to bypass the eye barrier against Kabuto? Furthermore, don't make me teach you your own series, in Chapter 90 of Part 1 Ebisu states that Chakra is used for Ninjutsu and Genjutsu, he does not refer to tokens of Genjutsu but rather the type. In chapter 259, Jiraiya makes the same comment that Genjutsu is just injecting Chakra into your opponent's mind, which is why it's stated in Databook 3 that the ways to escape Genjutsu are pain and disrupting Chakra flow.

Why exactly do you think Sasuke grabs the Zetsu clone and makes it look into his eye before he does Genjutsu, come on now dude.

Genjutsu works even if the other parties power system is stone itself on the wiki here It's irrelevant for equalisation.

Prove that

There are too many similarities in rezero mana and chakra for it to work. On the surface it seems fine but once you go deeper you'd see the mechanics are so different

I didn't particularly ask for you to repeat the claim, unless you establish some substantial relevant difference, then set a non-arbitrary standard for similarity, this is just a fart in the wind.

What are you talking about? All the people you keep mentioning have complete resistance to genjutsu up to Sasuke level, it's on all of their profiles.

And by virtue of what do they have resistance? Also, just because they have resistance doesn't mean it won't work, dude. Sasuke has resistance to genjutsu, yet Itachi uses it on him just fine or at least tries to, unless you think Sasuke found Genjutsu completely useless and incapable of working (Cite evidence for this), then you have no escape route.

Did you expect Sasuke to use genjutsu against obito and madara with their rinnengan and rinnesharingan?

Frog song worked on Pain, and Sasuke fought alive Madara, who had no eyes, dude, did you forget that or something?

Or otsusuki with their resistance to IT?

We don't know whether or not they're resistant or just not capable of being targets of Jutsu they made.

 

[Hercules1125]

Does being susceptible to genjutsu mean anything? I thought genjutsu just scales to the user so isn't it important who cast it?

Pain is stronger than Jiraiya, yet he still gets affected by their genjutsu, it's a matter of not being noticed rather than strength, Naruto fans are propaganda gods

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

This isn't true; we know from Nagato that you can drain someone's Chakra without draining their soul, which is why the Preta path doesn't absorb people's souls like the human path.

Uhhhhhhh, chakra is soul and mind that is a fact, your example of Nagato absorbing chakra without effecting the users soul is completely false. This is because they have chakra amount which when depleted caused death, hence it doesn’t seem to affect them.

They just have too much life force to survive absorption.

Why did you even make this argument? Furthermore arguing that it's genetic information is silly, your genetic information creates the physical energy,

Once again this is completely false. Physical energy comes from all the cells in the body. Genetic information is inherited

but it is not identical to it, you're confusing causal reducability with identity.

This is also true for your end. Also none point

This is begging the question: show me once where it's stated that Chakra comprises your soul and that,

Tailed beasts exist you know, spiritual energy also exists as well you know, chakra ghost like hags and obito exists you know, susanoo is a physical manifestation of the users spiritual chakra btw, orochimaru chakra arms exist btw.

You get the idea

when Genjutsu is used, it sends the soul into you?

The most famous jutsu in the series, the Tsykoyomi doesn’t exist it seems

Because we have a direct statement from Sakura that Chakra is SPIRITUAL. MENTAL and PHYSICAL energy.

Literally admits himself

If it is spiritual/mental energy, it cannot be identical to the soul itself unless you argue that the soul itself is identical to the energy which it creates, which is silly.

Not all souls are the same across every medium of fiction. Naruto folks souls are their power source. You would know this if you read the series respectfully

 

[Crimsonobu]

Impairment refers to any thing that hinders the user but it doesn't really matter because it says "by any outside influence" whether "enhancement" or "impairment". The character who had this ability was completely immune to brainwashing, sensory deprivation, and etc. They didn't just have high resistance to the ability, the ability itself didn't work.

It's shown magic, divine Protection, evil eye (a clan where everyone awakens a magical eye ability) and etc are not working on the user. Abilities that increased the user stats also doesn't work on individuals with this divine Protection.

Wouldn't Sasuke have to have some kind of immunity negation to bypass this?

This has not been responded to

 

[Hercules1125]

Uhhhhhhh, chakra is soul and mind that is a fact, your example of Nagato absorbing chakra without effecting the users soul is completely false. This is because they have chakra amount which when depleted caused death, hence it doesn’t seem to affect them.

They just have too much life force to survive absorption.

This again isn't true, dude. In Chapter 90, Chakra is described as composed of spiritual and physical energy. I already explained to you why the energy something creates, and the thing itself isn't identical, so you have no leg to stand on. Furthermore, can you show me exactly where it is stated that, because of the amount of chakra people have, their souls are not absorbed? Why is it that the human path exists and takes the souls from people, when the preta path can do the exact same thing? You're inflating your ontology for no reason; apply Occam's razor.

Once again this is completely false. Physical energy comes from all the cells in the body. Genetic information is inherited

This is irrelevant; not once did I disagree with this. In fact, the mere fact that physical energy comes from the cells, but is not identical to the cells, proves that Chakra is not identical to the soul

This is also true for your end. Also none point

Tailed beasts exist you know, spiritual energy also exists as well you know, chakra ghost like hags and obito exists you know, susanoo is a physical manifestation of the users spiritual chakra btw, orochimaru chakra arms exist btw.

Tailed beasts are never stated to have souls, they are just sentient masses of Chakra, the same is true for Hagoromo, you cannot find me a single instance of any of these people being described to be souls, the Susano' is a Chakra construct, that doesn't mean anything at all so I'm unsure why you're even arguing this, the point is that as is stated twice (which you have not responded to), the soul is not mentioned when discussing the composition of Chakra

You get the idea

The most famous jutsu in the series, the Tsykoyomi doesn’t exist it seems

Literally admits himself

Not all souls are the same across every medium of fiction. Naruto folks souls are their power source. You would know this if you read the series respectfully

Quote the chapter this is stated or have your argument dismissed by Hitchens Razor, pick your poison. Not to mention, Chapter 579, Kabuto becomes immune to Itachi and Sasuke's genjutsu just by shutting his eyes off LMAO

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

dawg, are genjutsu layers fraudulent or is it just me?

Naruto: Genjutsu Potency

vsbattles.fandom.com

They say its not resistance but illusion nullification. Then proceed to list the potency of the illusion hax, but these are still not layers. At best you could argue for nullification layers but even baseline mind manip resistance negs this

 

[karo_senpaii]

You're confused, nobody was contesting whether or not Sasuke has surpassed Itachi, the question is in what metric and why exactly that neccessitates that he should now be above him in terms of Genjutsu rather than overall combat ability, and explaining to you that there are multiple different metrics which you can use to judge somebody's ability with Genjutsu rather than just "Oh he can manipulate space and time bro duhh" because that claim is unsupported. We even see Frog Song, which is stated to be the strongest Genjutsu used, and it doesn't have the same abilities as Tsukuyomi

No it's directly stated that Sasuke surpassed him in genjutsu

If somebody is literally the concept of fire, any fire which is created by them would just be an extension of who they are, if I am a being who is composed of human DNA, any part of by body which I produce will also prema facie possess the same human dna and genetic makeup that I do, it's the same here, authorities create effects and have effects by manipulating a concept of the world, that's what authorities do, so if an authority is being used, that is what it's doing.

This is awfully wrong.. A conceptual being creating a universe does not make the universe conceptual

You haven't established why there are layers, but also he still gets diffed by Kabuto, literally turning his eyes off to the extent that Itachi literally needs Izanami to be capable of affecting it, no matter how many layers of genjutsu you try to argue for him, so long as he gets eye-shut-diffed, then it literally means nothing even disregarding the fact that there have been no layers established.

I don't need to establish anything. That's what blogs and profiles are for

This is never stated; you cannot show me a single statement from any character in the series that says Chakra is only infused into Genjutsu to bypass the eye contact barrier. This doesn't even make sense narratively, because are you trying to imply that Itachi is a moron who didn't think of infusing his genjutsu with Chakra to bypass the eye barrier against Kabuto? Furthermore, don't make me teach you your own series, in Chapter 90 of Part 1 Ebisu states that Chakra is used for Ninjutsu and Genjutsu, he does not refer to tokens of Genjutsu but rather the type. In chapter 259, Jiraiya makes the same comment that Genjutsu is just injecting Chakra into your opponent's mind, which is why it's stated in Databook 3 that the ways to escape Genjutsu are pain and disrupting Chakra flow.

It's stated directly by shisui. Check his description for kotoamatsukami

Why exactly do you think Sasuke grabs the Zetsu clone and makes it look into his eye before he does Genjutsu, come on now dude.



Prove that



I didn't particularly ask for you to repeat the claim, unless you establish some substantial relevant difference, then set a non-arbitrary standard for similarity, this is just a fart in the wind.



And by virtue of what do they have resistance? Also, just because they have resistance doesn't mean it won't work, dude. Sasuke has resistance to genjutsu, yet Itachi uses it on him just fine or at least tries to, unless you think Sasuke found Genjutsu completely useless and incapable of working (Cite evidence for this), then you have no escape route.

You're almost there, Sasuke has resistance to genjutsu, yet genjutsu worked on him , which means Itachi genjutsu gets another layer, are you new here?

Frog song worked on Pain, and Sasuke fought alive Madara, who had no eyes, dude, did you forget that or something?

Pain doesn't have MS.. also read the blog, sage genjutsu is also layered

We don't know whether or not they're resistant or just not capable of being targets of Jutsu they made.

We do know.. that's why it's on the otsusuki page.. just read dude

 

[Hercules1125]

No it's directly stated that Sasuke surpassed him in genjutsu

Surpassing him in genjutsu =/= his genjutsu have all of the same effects, Frog Song > Tsukuyomi yet doesn't have the same effects

This is awfully wrong.. A conceptual being creating a universe does not make the universe conceptual

They aren't extensions of yourself, plus this is a strawman

I don't need to establish anything. That's what blogs and profiles are for

Hitchens razor, I'm not finding your evidence for you if you're incapable of justifying your claim.

It's stated directly by shisui. Check his description for kotoamatsukami

It's YOUR claim, you're shifting the burden of proof continuously in an attempt to save yourself from the two direct statements I cited, in Chapter 581, it's directly stated by Kabuto that Itachi and Sasuke's genjutsu don't work on him due to him turning off his eyes, so once more you keep dodging the evidence, not to mention I just checked his profile and nothing like that is said.

You're almost there, Sasuke has resistance to genjutsu, yet genjutsu worked on him , which means Itachi genjutsu gets another layer, are you new here?

Or perhaps you're confused and didn't realise that the Sharingan allows you to see through genjutsu, not resist them, which is why someone like Kurenai can cast Genjutsu on Itachi despite him being stronger, and he gets caught, he just reflects it. This is a feat for being able to see through mind manipulation, not resist it.

Pain doesn't have MS.. also read the blog, sage genjutsu is also layered

We do know.. that's why it's on the otsusuki page.. just read dude

Again, I'm not proving your claim for you, if all you have is burden shifts then you can just concede the argument

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Again, I'm not proving your claim for you, if all you have is burden shifts then you can just concede the argument

Check the profile

 

[karo_senpaii]

Surpassing him in genjutsu =/= his genjutsu have all of the same effects, Frog Song > Tsukuyomi yet doesn't have the same effects

It does , especially when it's Itachi eye that he is using. The ability comes from the eye

They aren't extensions of yourself, plus this is a strawman

Yes they aren't. Exactly my point. A conceptual fire being can still create normal fire

Hitchens razor, I'm not finding your evidence for you if you're incapable of justifying your claim.

?? Broski this isn't a discord debate. We debate here using profiles. It's on shisui profile so I already don't need any evidence

It's YOUR claim, you're shifting the burden of proof continuously in an attempt to save yourself from the two direct statements I cited, in Chapter 581, it's directly stated by Kabuto that Itachi and Sasuke's genjutsu don't work on him due to him turning off his eyes, so once more you keep dodging the evidence, not to mention I just checked his profile and nothing like that is said.

It's not my claim it's yours. You claim that genjutsu works by sending your own chakra. I said it doesn't. You need to bring evidence for that, genjutsu works by eye contact

Or perhaps you're confused and didn't realise that the Sharingan allows you to see through genjutsu, not resist them, which is why someone like Kurenai can cast Genjutsu on Itachi despite him being stronger, and he gets caught, he just reflects it. This is a feat for being able to see through mind manipulation, not resist it.

Argue with the profile and blog then

Again, I'm not proving your claim for you, if all you have is burden shifts then you can just concede the argument

You're meant to look at profiles and then vote. Maybe you're mistaking this for discord

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Naruto to Boruto Discussion Thread

Yea, I think he'd be impressed with her enough to give her a contract. She's exceptionally talented at her age, mastering multiple high ranking abilities while also possessing a MS. She also inherited Sakura's expert control over chakra giving her insane enhanced striking strength, and she did...

vsbattles.com

A mod that is knowledgable on the verse confirmed that they are nullification layers, baseline mind manipulation resistance is more than enough to overcome genjutsu here, and Reinhard has multiple layers of resistance.

It cant get more stompish than this

 

[Kaydee1648]

This thread is hilarious
why are you arguing back and forth over what’s accepted?
This is not the place to do that. No one needs to prove anything to you in a vs thread if it’s accepted.

 

[Hercules1125]

It does , especially when it's Itachi eye that he is using. The ability comes from the eye

Just because it's Itachi's eyes that he's using doesn't mean that he firstly is capable of using all of Itachi's abilities, all we see him get from the EMS is flame control, not once is it ever stated or implied that he gets Tsukuyomi, and I already explained to you that you can surpass someone in Genjutsu in other ways than potency, this is a tracking error.

Yes they aren't. Exactly my point. A conceptual fire being can still create normal fire

Strawman

?? Broski this isn't a discord debate. We debate here using profiles. It's on shisui profile so I already don't need any evidence

Your claim is based on the assumption that it's on their profiles. When I checked, I didn't see the thing you claimed, so since you're the one making the claim, you would need the evidence, furthermore, the burden of proof and how it works doesn't change depending on the platform, what?

It's not my claim it's yours. You claim that genjutsu works by sending your own chakra. I said it doesn't. You need to bring evidence for that, genjutsu works by eye contact

I cited you the chapter three times, dude? Like come on

Argue with the profile and blog then

Did look at the profile, didn't say what you said, so now I'm asking you for evidence, I don't know what part of this you're confused about

You're meant to look at profiles and then vote. Maybe you're mistaking this for discord

As I said before, i did look, didn't see it, so prove your claim by linking the information the blog allegedly gives

 

[Hercules1125]

This thread is hilarious
why are you arguing back and forth over what’s accepted?
This is not the place to do that. No one needs to prove anything to you in a vs thread if it’s accepted.

I'm looking at the Shisui profile and not seeing what he is claiming to be accepted, idk whether or not there's a key I'm not looking at or it's just not there, the onus is on the person who made the claim to evidence it, arbitrarily claiming things are or are not accepted is redundant

 

[karo_senpaii]

Naruto to Boruto Discussion Thread

Yea, I think he'd be impressed with her enough to give her a contract. She's exceptionally talented at her age, mastering multiple high ranking abilities while also possessing a MS. She also inherited Sakura's expert control over chakra giving her insane enhanced striking strength, and she did...

vsbattles.com

A mod that is knowledgable on the verse confirmed that they are nullification layers, baseline mind manipulation resistance is more than enough to overcome genjutsu here, and Reinhard has multiple layers of resistance.

It cant get more stompish than this

Straight up just lying against a mod

 

[karo_senpaii]

Just because it's Itachi's eyes that he's using doesn't mean that he firstly is capable of using all of Itachi's abilities, all we see him get from the EMS is flame control, not once is it ever stated or implied that he gets Tsukuyomi, and I already explained to you that you can surpass someone in Genjutsu in other ways than potency, this is a tracking error.

Actually it means exactly that, he can use said abilities. Ems did not give flame control, that's his ms ability. It doesn't need to be stated verbatim that "he has tsukyomi" as it's still just genjutsu and we are giving a direct statement that he surpassed Itachi genjutsu

Strawman



Your claim is based on the assumption that it's on their profiles. When I checked, I didn't see the thing you claimed, so since you're the one making the claim, you would need the evidence, furthermore, the burden of proof and how it works doesn't change depending on the platform, what?

I cited you the chapter three times, dude? Like come on

Do you even comprehend your hypocrisy?

You didn't drop scans, you cited a chapter, that's not a scan, that's just you making a statement, a scan is what it is, a picture or something. Yet you are asking me to do same despite me doing the exact same thing you did by citing shisui saying so in his novel?

Did look at the profile, didn't say what you said, so now I'm asking you for evidence, I don't know what part of this you're confused about



As I said before, i did look, didn't see it, so prove your claim by linking the information the blog allegedly gives

 

[Kaydee1648]

I'm looking at the Shisui profile and not seeing what he is claiming to be accepted, idk whether or not there's a key I'm not looking at or it's just not there, the onus is on the person who made the claim to evidence it, arbitrarily claiming things are or are not accepted is redundant

I’m referring to things like

Or perhaps you're confused and didn't realise that the Sharingan allows you to see through genjutsu, not resist them

why exactly that neccessitates that he should now be above him in terms of Genjutsu rather than overall combat ability

show me once where it's stated that Chakra comprises your soul and that, when Genjutsu is used, it sends the soul into you? Because we have a direct statement from Sakura that Chakra is SPIRITUAL. MENTAL and PHYSICAL energy. If it is spiritual/mental energy, it cannot be identical to the soul itself unless you argue that the soul itself is identical to the energy which it creates, which is silly.

Tailed beasts are never stated to have souls

literally said here

In all honesty, taking a good look through the profiles will show you answers for all these. No one is under any burden of proof for what’s on the profile.

A mod that is knowledgable on the verse confirmed that they are nullification layers, baseline mind manipulation resistance is more than enough to overcome genjutsu here, and Reinhard has multiple layers of resistance.

I hope this is joke.

 

[Hercules1125]

Actually it means exactly that, he can use said abilities. Ems did not give flame control, that's his ms ability. It doesn't need to be stated verbatim that "he has tsukyomi" as it's still just genjutsu and we are giving a direct statement that he surpassed Itachi genjutsu

You're begging the question here and assuming surpassing his Genjutsu refers to potency. Secondly, that's not true, Sasuke had Amaterasu in his MS. He could not manipulate his flames in the way he was doing in his EMS because it was not part of his kit

Do you even comprehend your hypocrisy?

You didn't drop scans, you cited a chapter, that's not a scan, that's just you making a statement, a scan is what it is, a picture or something. Yet you are asking me to do same despite me doing the exact same thing you did by citing shisui saying so in his novel?

"A scan is what it is." Thanks for that informative response. Also, the difference is I cited you the exact chapter where it was stated, with novels you can just copy paste the quote, but here you go:

https://scans.lastation.us/manga/Naruto-Digital-Colored-Comics/0090-004.png

https://scans.lastation.us/manga/Naruto-Digital-Colored-Comics/0259-009.png

https://scans.lastation.us/manga/Naruto-Digital-Colored-Comics/0581-013.png

 

[Hercules1125]

I’m referring to things like




literally said here

In all honesty, taking a good look through the profiles will show you answers for all these. No one is under any burden of proof for what’s on the profile.

I hope this is joke.

Can't use Imgur in the UK

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

This again isn't true, dude. In Chapter 90, Chakra is described as composed of spiritual and physical energy.

What do you think spiritual energy entitles here? This panel literally has the word spirit in it. It can’t get more blatant then this

I already explained to you why the energy something creates, and the thing itself isn't identical, so you have no leg to stand on.

Nope, physical energy is a volume increaser in the whole chakra making process. Even before all the physical energy nonsense hags preached ninshu which only consisted of spiritual energy I.e soul and mind.

This process does not create a new form of energy, it is just an amplifier for what already existed. Soul Madara using fire style is prime example of this.

This panel once gain shows it as being a volume increaser

Furthermore, can you show me exactly where it is stated that, because of the amount of chakra people have, their souls are not absorbed?

You misunderstand, I am saying that their souls are being absorbed. Also absorption in Naruto varies, some things like chakra dragon can take chakra of humans in one go killing them instantly while the god trees root takes a few seconds to fully absorb chkara to kill

Why is it that the human path exists and takes the souls from people, when the preta path can do the exact same thing? You're inflating your ontology for no reason; apply Occam's razor.

Because the human paths main function isn’t to take souls, rather it’s to get information from their opponents by reading their minds. Then they take their souls as an afterthought.

A simple fact that would be known by those who reads the series

This is irrelevant; not once did I disagree with this. In fact, the mere fact that physical energy comes from the cells, but is not identical to the cells, proves that Chakra is not identical to the soul

?????????? I am genuinely confused here, you do know that the term chakra is an umbrella term used to describe energies in general? Like boruto coined the term planetary chakra when in actuality it’s just your standard rotational energy.

This is not it

Tailed beasts are never stated to have

Kurama literally dies inside of Naruto by his chkara being extinguished. Then comes back by saying the even if his mind,
Soul and body is destroyed they would come back.

Hell they meet a spiritual realm, how much more blatant can it get. And check the profiles it there

they are just sentient masses of Chakra, the same is true for Hagoromo,

litterally takes a single second to look at Hagoromos profile to know that hags split the ten tails soul into nine creatures. Also hags is not simply a mass of chakra, he is a soul litterally meets folks in a spiritual plain, is called a ghost and summons souls from the pure lands.

you cannot find me a single instance of any of these people being described to be souls, the Susano' is a Chakra construct,

Wrong

霊体化したチャクラを容器にした魔神の姿は、まさに圧巻。その猛る時は、眼前のあらゆる敵を滅ぼすまで、破壊の限りを尽くす!!

“The form of a fierce deity that uses spiritualized chakra as its vessel is truly overwhelming. When it rages, it exhausts every means of destruction until all enemies before its eyes are annihilated!!”

• 霊 (rei) = spirit, spiritual
• 体 (tai) = body, form
• 化 (ka) = transformation, becoming
So:

霊体 = “spirit body” / “spiritual body” / “spiritual form”

霊体化 = “spiritualization” / “becoming a spiritual body”

Spiritual chakra is literally the spirit/soul

that doesn't mean anything at all so I'm unsure why you're even arguing this, the point is that as is stated twice (which you have not responded to), the soul is not mentioned when discussing the composition of Chakra

You can’t be this ignorant

Quote the chapter this is stated

Look at Naruto’s or Itachi profiles, it’s on there. That’s why we made them

or have your argument dismissed by Hitchens Razor, pick your poison. Not to mention, Chapter 579, Kabuto becomes immune to Itachi and Sasuke's genjutsu just by shutting his eyes off LMAO

Yea because ocular genjutsu sends chkara into their opponents via eye contact, like day one established fact.

Bro is just spamming razors without ever touching a single chapter of Naruto, I cant

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

Next Hercules is gonna say that Edo Tensei doesn’t needs souls cuz “it was never stated” even tho he has never read the series

 

[karo_senpaii]

You're begging the question here and assuming surpassing his Genjutsu refers to potency. Secondly, that's not true, Sasuke had Amaterasu in his MS. He could not manipulate his flames in the way he was doing in his EMS because it was not part of his kit



"A scan is what it is." Thanks for that informative response. Also, the difference is I cited you the exact chapter where it was stated, with novels you can just copy paste the quote, but here you go:

https://scans.lastation.us/manga/Naruto-Digital-Colored-Comics/0090-004.png

https://scans.lastation.us/manga/Naruto-Digital-Colored-Comics/0259-009.png

https://scans.lastation.us/manga/Naruto-Digital-Colored-Comics/0581-013.png

Not even one scan showing you send your chakra into your opponent to control the person

 

[Hercules1125]

What do you think spiritual energy entitles here? This panel literally has the word spirit in it. It can’t get more blatant then this

No shot, this is the argument, just because something is composed of the energy of a specific entity does not mean it is identical to the source of the energy, in the same way how heat can be composed of the kinetic energy of particles, but it is not identical to the microwave creating said heat

Nope, physical energy is a volume increaser in the whole chakra making process. Even before all the physical energy nonsense hags preached ninshu which only consisted of spiritual energy I.e soul and mind.

This process does not create a new form of energy, it is just an amplifier for what already existed. Soul Madara using fire style is prime example of this.

This panel once gain shows it as being a volume increaser

You can't be serious, in the image you sent yourself, it displays that Chakra is something which is composed of physical energy and spirit energy, and then you can combine it with nature energy to make it stronger, not that it amplifies some entity which already exists, this is explained in chapter 17 and it does not get any more blatant than this that Chakra is simply a composite of two different types of energy.

You misunderstand, I am saying that their souls are being absorbed. Also absorption in Naruto varies, some things like chakra dragon can take chakra of humans in one go killing them instantly while the god trees root takes a few seconds to fully absorb chkara to kill

That's what's in question. I agree the Human path can do that. There is no evidence that the Preta path can do such a thing, just because taking Chakra and pulling people's souls out can both kill you does not refute the argument

Because the human paths main function isn’t to take souls, rather it’s to get information from their opponents by reading their minds. Then they take their souls as an afterthought.

A simple fact that would be known by those who reads the series

You're walking yourself into a hole. If Chakra is simply the soul, then the human path absorbing chakra would allow them to get the same information that the human path would through just ripping your soul out, as they are both direct interaction with the soul. Once more, there is not a single statement in the series using Chakra and soul interchangeably

?????????? I am genuinely confused here, you do know that the term chakra is an umbrella term used to describe energies in general? Like boruto coined the term planetary chakra when in actuality it’s just your standard rotational energy.

This is not it

Planetary Chakra means what it says. We know that planets in Boruto have their own energies within them, which is the entire point of the Otsutsuki choosing to drain the chakra off the planet. All Boruto is doing is using the planet's Chakra to fuel its rotation, then using it in the form of Uzuhiko. This is not complicated to understand.

Kurama literally dies inside of Naruto by his chkara being extinguished. Then comes back by saying the even if his mind,
Soul and body is destroyed they would come back.

Hell they meet a spiritual realm, how much more blatant can it get. And check the profiles it there

Except they don't meet in a spiritual realm, we see it explicitly stated to be a mental one, one which has no connection with the soul and has nothing to do with it but rather is something created by his connection to the Bijuu, it's like you didn't read the series you're arguing with me about.

litterally takes a single second to look at Hagoromos profile to know that hags split the ten tails soul into nine creatures. Also hags is not simply a mass of chakra, he is a soul litterally meets folks in a spiritual plain, is called a ghost and summons souls from the pure lands.

Wrong

霊体化したチャクラを容器にした魔神の姿は、まさに圧巻。その猛る時は、眼前のあらゆる敵を滅ぼすまで、破壊の限りを尽くす!!

“The form of a fierce deity that uses spiritualized chakra as its vessel is truly overwhelming. When it rages, it exhausts every means of destruction until all enemies before its eyes are annihilated!!”

• 霊 (rei) = spirit, spiritual
• 体 (tai) = body, form
• 化 (ka) = transformation, becoming
So:

霊体 = “spirit body” / “spiritual body” / “spiritual form”

霊体化 = “spiritualization” / “becoming a spiritual body”

Spiritual chakra is literally the spirit/soul

This actually gets worse because if you take the view that these statements about the soul are literal here, then you would have to concede that the soul in Naruto has mass and can be interacted with by things like rocks, that the other 5 statements about Chakra being composed of both are wrong and retconned, the more likely interpretation here is that spiritual body is merely a figurative term used to describe their form.

 

[Hercules1125]

Not even one scan showing you send your chakra into your opponent to control the person

I can't force you to read my brother in Christ

 

[Crimsonobu]

Impairment refers to any thing that hinders the user but it doesn't really matter because it says "by any outside influence" whether "enhancement" or "impairment". The character who had this ability was completely immune to brainwashing, sensory deprivation, and etc. They didn't just have high resistance to the ability, the ability itself didn't work.

It's shown magic, divine Protection, evil eye (a clan where everyone awakens a magical eye ability) and etc are not working on the user. Abilities that increased the user stats also doesn't work on individuals with this divine Protection.

Wouldn't Sasuke have to have some kind of immunity negation to bypass this?

This was ignored...

 

[Phoenks]

Soulwashing isn't just a mind-affecting ability. It's accepted as CM Type 2 and Law Manipulation, while Od itself is treated as a Type 3 concept encompassing the mind, soul, memories, identity, and more. The argument that Type 3 is irrelevant only works when the mechanics are similar enough for the conceptual aspect to not matter. Chakra and Od are fundamentally different systems, so I don't see why the conceptual aspect should be ignored here as they are not similar enough in mechanics.

Already addressed

The re Zero CM 2 doesn't affect Type 2 soul/mind concepts. Just having concept manipulation doesn't make the actual affect of the ability more esoteric in nature.

They are similar enough. That's the entire reason you are arguing that Reinhard resist the ability. They are mind altering powers.

The issue was never just layers btw. The hax page explicitly states that potency includes factors beyond layering. Soulwashing can affect over 200,000 people at once, directly interact with Od, transfer damage through Od connections, and affect aspects of a person far beyond what Genjutsu has demonstrated. Reinhard scales above these effects, so reducing the discussion to "he only has one layer of resistance" ignores the actual potency scaling being discussed.

Already addressed how this is an oversimplification of the hax page; having numbers only grants greater range, not the potency of the ability. You need more evidence to prove number equates to greater effect in order to have actual hax potency scaling.

can perform Genjutsu. The argument is that Od Laguna is already aware of mind-affecting and soul-affecting phenomena and has repeatedly demonstrated the ability to grant stronger resistances to things it recognizes. We've already seen it grant superior resistances against various forms of manipulation. Because of that, there's no reason to assume it couldn't grant the necessary resistance potency here as well

This is a no limits fallacy there are no 3-layered mind/soul illusion stuff in Od Laguna. Staff has already called this out as a blatant NLF.

 

[Crimsonobu]

Already addressed

The re Zero CM 2 doesn't affect Type 2 soul/mind concepts. Just having concept manipulation doesn't make the actual affect of the ability more esoteric in nature.

They are similar enough. That's the entire reason you are arguing that Reinhard resist the ability. They are mind altering powers.




Already addressed how this is an oversimplification of the hax page; having numbers only grants greater range, not the potency of the ability. You need more evidence to prove number equates to greater effect in order to have actual hax potency scaling.





This is a no limits fallacy there are no 3-layered mind/soul illusion stuff in Od Laguna. Staff has already called this out as a blatant NLF.

How does this work for

Divine Protection of Insensitivity: The user can't be interfered with by any outside influences, whether it be magical enhancement or impairment.

Where its immunity and not resistance to anything that affects the user and has evidence of making users immune for abilities that brainwash, sense manipulation, and etc.

 

[Testarossa002]

Divine Protection of Insensitivity: The user can't be interfered with by any outside influences, whether it be magical enhancement or impairment

It's listed under "potentially", which, by going via the introduction of that section, means he doesn't have it but can request for it.
Which explains why he doesn't have the appropriate ability (invulnerability) on his profile
In that case, it doesn't really matter as he'd be mind ****** the moment genjutsu lands. So he won't be able to request for anything

Godly Intuition also makes the standard eye-contact argument questionable. it allows him to instinctively know the correct course of action. If looking into Sasuke's eyes is disadvantageous, there's no reason to assume Reinhard would choose to do so in the first place.

There's nothing on his IA and Info Analysis justification that supports him countering abilities he's not seen at all

Sasuke's biggest problem is DP of Initiative
Assuming RvA decides to insta-nuke a seemingly human teenager.
Sasuke can counter with Susano'o
Not because he resists it (not sure why that's being mentioned when Obito's EE left a gaping hole in the susano'o) but because it counts as Sasuke. So, he can survive unscathed by the attack even with DPInit.
The EE passes through the Susano'o without hitting sasuke himself
Then he shunshins out of there and closes the gap

 

[Crimsonobu]

It's listed under "potentially", which, by going via the introduction of that section, means he doesn't have it but can request for it.
Which explains why he doesn't have the appropriate ability (invulnerability) on his profile
In that case, it doesn't really matter as he'd be mind ****** the moment genjutsu lands. So he won't be able to request for anything

There's nothing on his IA and Info Analysis justification that supports him countering abilities he's not seen at all

Sasuke's biggest problem is DP of Initiative
Assuming RvA decides to insta-nuke a seemingly human teenager.
Sasuke can counter with Susano'o
Not because he resists it (not sure why that's being mentioned when Obito's EE left a gaping hole in the susano'o) but because it counts as Sasuke. So, he can survive unscathed by the attack even with DPInit.
The EE passes through the Susano'o without hitting sasuke himself
Then he shunshins out of there and closes the gap

Divine protections aren't just granted by request but whenever Reinhard needs it and it done by the independent concept Od Lagna. Therefore he doesn't need to "request" it as Od Laguna grants Reinhard a specific divine Protection against the problem he's facing. It's why Reinhard gets divine protections he's not aware of existed.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Holy larp...

It's listed under "potentially", which, by going via the introduction of that section, means he doesn't have it but can request for it.
Which explains why he doesn't have the appropriate ability (invulnerability) on his profile
In that case, it doesn't really matter as he'd be mind ****** the moment genjutsu lands. So he won't be able to request for anything

he automatically gets the blessing he needs, when he needs it, before the ability takes place.

There's nothing on his IA and Info Analysis justification that supports him countering abilities he's not seen at all

Because its not IA, check his intelligence page and fate manipulation/blessing section.

Sasuke's biggest problem is DP of Initiative
Assuming RvA decides to insta-nuke a seemingly human teenager.
Sasuke can counter with Susano'o
Not because he resists it (not sure why that's being mentioned when Obito's EE left a gaping hole in the susano'o) but because it counts as Sasuke. So, he can survive unscathed by the attack even with DPInit.
The EE passes through the Susano'o without hitting sasuke himself
Then he shunshins out of there and closes the gap

You have so far ignored the fact that, Susanoo doesnt actually stop his EE slash, his passive powernull which makes all ninjutsu and genjutsu basically impossible to use in his prescence and the fact that he can just...close his eyes

Anyways, if you guys are so keen on this not being a stomp then Reinhard fra

 

[MasterOwOgay]

Reinhard Nukes FRA

 

[Raito_Utopia]

Reinhard claps fra