Espio the Chameleon vs UB-02 Absorption

[Arceus0x]

I’m a lil confused (Pokemon scaling is kinda messy TBF). Since we use level 100, shouldn’t a level 100 Buzzwole (A wild in game Buzzwole is Level 60, which is likely the level they fought Tapu Koko at) upscale from the Necrozma who fought Elio? (Who was level 65?)
I know Necrozma performed the light absorption in the manga, but from what I see, we combine the continuities together for Pokemon (Except in special cases).

In this case he wouldn't outscale it as he doesn't have the feat to outscale it but he would outscale himself from the game where he is like lvl 52 or something

 

[GrayCraft_Dragon]

read the thing, agree with Arceus. I’ll vote for the flaming lizard if it’s okay

 

[Arceus0x]

I’ll vote for the flaming lizard if it’s okay

Son

 

[GrayCraft_Dragon]

Joke aside, I'm choosing fr now. And its gonna be Buzzwole

 

[King_Clab]

Joke aside, I'm choosing fr now. And its gonna be Buzzwole

Vote counted

 

[Causalist]

The Buzzwole we saw would be below the in-game Buzzwole as game Buzzwole could fight Tapu Koko. Tapu Koko downscales to some extent from Solgaleo and Lunala who use infinite energy and who scale directly to base Necrozma who, in turn, absorbed a universe worth of light (which is High 3-A). So Buzzwole downscales to some extent.

Can you show them no-selling it? Because all I am finding is low quality footage that would kill anyone over the age of 40 and nobody gets hit once by the attacks because the guy barely attacks.

Despite the Guardian's intent to protect his treasure by any means necessary, his attacks can only slow down the riders. Not harm them, which would be symbolized by them dropping rings.

Yeah no unless you show them just going full Senator Armstrong on that he is definitely piercing them, not to mention that he has attacks that give actual multipliers like Power Up Punch and Harden. So far I am seeing scaling chains but not enough actual scaling. With Buzzwole it is simple, he can fight Tapus, the Tapus fought against Ultra Beasts along with Solgaleo and Lunala, thus the downscales.

No, it is

• Tank some hits with either harden or endure

If you're proposing that Buzzwole should/would lead with anything other than Swagger, then you're fighting an uphill battle, because the later Buzzwole uses it, the worse off he is. Against a clear minded Espio, Buzzwole would need to defend against multiple consecutive homing attacks. Speed amps that instinctively have Espio aim for the opponent's weak spots (which in Pokemon terms, translates to a critical hit, but even disregarding that, Espio's crazy accuracy with his kunais and ninja stars means that with a clear head, he could easily pierce a vital area of Buzzwole or blind him.

• Use Swagger once
• Espio struggles to function as he lunges at Buzzwole and gets grabbed

How good are Buzzwole's senses and precision? Even against a disoriented Espio, Buzzwole would need to have to be amazing in both categories to catch a smaller, more nimble, and invisible opponent immediately after being hit by said opponent's superior AP.

Right, he will not one-hit or two-hit buzzwole, Pokemon tank moves from others who even have 10x attack boosts, a scaling chain with no multiplier from a universe with its own one-shot gaps is not gonna work here.

If comparable multipliers are what you need, here you go:

In Sonic Heroes, any character can collect up to 3 Power Cores, with each one doubling the user's power. Despite this, comparable characters are still able to contend with each other somewhat evenly even when one has 3 Power Cores and the other has 0. If an 8x multiplier isn't enough to be able to no-sell attacks from an otherwise comparable opponent in Sonic Heroes, then that would mean the durabillity required in the verse to no-sell attacks would have to be well over 8x greater than the attack it withstands. Extremely close to the 10x example you used. We can therefore conclude that most of Buzzwole's attacks would be ineffective against Espio, and that Espio could knockout Buzzwole with one hit to the head, especially after a sharp attack boost from swagger or with the piercing damage of one of his weapons.

RNG of self confusion is mainly a game mechanic, in the anime we clearly see that the Pokemon is heavily disoriented to the point where it can barely move and sometimes succeeds in unleashing a move which is usually easily dodged.

At this point I think we should just let the people vote, we're starting to argue in circles.

I don't think we're arguing in circles, but I think you really should provide more showings of confusion because I'm more familiar with what it does in the games and I don't even know why we're prioritizing the anime in that regard specifically. In the clip you showed previously the confused Pokemon seemed to have perfect accuracy and coordination. They just aimed for the wrong target, which shouldn't be an issue in a 1v1 like this.

 

[King_Clab]

Bump

 

[Causalist]

Bump

 

[Causalist]

Bump

 

[King_Clab]

I don't think we're arguing in circles, but I think you really should provide more showings of confusion because I'm more familiar with what it does in the games and I don't even know why we're prioritizing the anime in that regard specifically. In the clip you showed previously the confused Pokemon seemed to have perfect accuracy and coordination. They just aimed for the wrong target, which shouldn't be an issue in a 1v1 like this.

I found this. With Swagger, it seems to be unavoidable, unless the opponent looks away? This move was only used once in the anime, and twice in the manga, so it’s kinda hard to say much about it, but it’s very likely Espio couldn’t avoid it, or would try to (He wouldn’t suspect it)
Another Edit: In other cases, those inflicted with confusion are left defensless or just collapse. (https://www.********.tv/v/04-hassle-in-the-castle) [The link is not working ]

Edit: I do think Buzzwole could kill/incap Espio by piercing his skin, but Espio would deadass eat all of Buzzwole’s other attacks from what I’ve read

 

[Causalist]

I found this. With Swagger, it seems to be unavoidable, unless the opponent looks away? This move was only used once in the anime, and twice in the manga, so it’s kinda hard to say much about it, but it’s very likely Espio couldn’t avoid it, or would try to (He wouldn’t suspect it)

Yeah, I don't think he could dodge it either. That wasn't really my point though

Another Edit: In other cases, those inflicted with confusion are left defensless or just collapse.

Your link broke

Edit: I do think Buzzwole could kill/incap Espio by piercing his skin, but Espio would deadass eat all of Buzzwole’s other attacks from what I’ve read

I THINK he could too, but it would take effort, and it's hard to know for sure. For the sake of preserving this fascinating debate and keeping Buzzwole's singular win con required for it, we'll assume he can.

 

[King_Clab]

For the sake of preserving this fascinating debate and keeping Buzzwole's singular win con required for it, we'll assume he can.

LMAO
[********.tv/v/04-hassle-in-the-castle]
Does this link work? (Try to replace the “******” with “********”)

 

[King_Clab]

LMAO
[********.tv/v/04-hassle-in-the-castle]
Does this link work? (Try to replace the “******” with “********”)

The link is ******* with me , let me try to fix this

 

[King_Clab]

The link is ******* with me , let me try to fix this

ÁLRIGHTY
(Skip near the end)

 

[King_Clab]

Bunp

 

[Causalist]

ÁLRIGHTY
(Skip near the end)

In this case, confusion is basically an instant knockout, but it's an outlier compared to every other instance of confusion ever shown. In fact, the power of that specific Golbat is immediately noted to be responsible for the result, so there's no good reason to assume this Buzzwole could replicate that with a completely different move.

 

[King_Clab]

In this case, confusion is basically an instant knockout, but it's an outlier compared to every other instance of confusion ever shown. In fact, the power of that specific Golbat is immediately noted to be responsible for the result, so there's no good reason to assume this Buzzwole could replicate that with a completely different move.

They both cause confusion (Confusion wouldn’t change between moves), and swagger would actually Improve on it, causing Espio to attack more recklessly, allowing Buzzwole to grab him. Buzzwole massively outscales Golbat, so his confusion should be stronger
Either way, I do believe Espio wins this, his wincon is actually straightforward, and consistent. Buzzwole wincon is grabbing ass hair with tweezers, but I can’t vote on this so we wait

 

[Arceus0x]

Disagree with it being "grabbing ass hair" it's him surviving an onslaught that by all means he should be able to tank through and then using a move he'd need to use as one of the only options when, you know, he's getting assaulted by an invisible opponent significantly stronger than him. If he does that then it's gg imo, one grab and it's over, Espio dies to grappling.

Either way if votes don't come in then there'd be no point anyways lmao.

 

[Causalist]

They both cause confusion (Confusion wouldn’t change between moves)

Who's to say that's also the case in the anime? It wouldn't be the first inconsistancy of this kind in it.

, and swagger would actually Improve on it, causing Espio to attack more recklessly, allowing Buzzwole to grab him.

How is that an improvement over making the target not move at all? In this very specific case, it would be, but not in basically any other fight.

Buzzwole massively outscales Golbat, so his confusion should be stronger

That only naturally follows if we presume status effect potency scales to power, which isn't the case anywhere in Pokemon. The reason Golbat's power was highlighted here could genuinely be because the writers forgot supersonic is a status effect move and not an attacking move.

Disagree with it being "grabbing ass hair" it's him surviving an onslaught that by all means he should be able to tank through and then using a move he'd need to use as one of the only options when, you know, he's getting assaulted by an invisible opponent significantly stronger than him.

I don't think you've provided sufficient proof to make your case that Buzzwole would survive the onslaught more often than not. I've already made my case for why he wouldn't, but even if he did, he still needs to catch a smaller, invisible opponent with an in-character speed amp he can spam, and not be hit by his tongue before going for the stab. All within a time frame which can be very short and at the cost of further widening the gap in power. There are just way too many hurdles for the buff bug to overcome here.

 

[Arceus0x]

Who's to say that's also the case in the anime? It wouldn't be the first inconsistancy of this kind in it.

There's a very consistent showing of Confused state being that of a Pokemon being extremely disoriented to the point where they cannot recognize friend from foe and can attack themselves. The anime depicts that. Swagger adds anger to that.

How is that an improvement over making the target not move at all? In this very specific case, it would be, but not in basically any other fight.

It wouldn't make him not move at all but it would make him too disoriented to attack Buzzwole in any way beyond basic straight forward attacks which allow for a grab.

That only naturally follows if we presume status effect potency scales to power, which isn't the case anywhere in Pokemon. The reason Golbat's power was highlighted here could genuinely be because the writers forgot supersonic is a status effect move and not an attacking move.

Supersonic is used twice in the scene, first by a normal Golbat, which shows a similar state of confusion, then by the more powerful one.

I don't think you've provided sufficient proof to make your case that Buzzwole would survive the onslaught more often than not. I've already made my case for why he wouldn't, but even if he did, he still needs to catch a smaller, invisible opponent with an in-character speed amp he can spam, and not be hit by his tongue before going for the stab. All within a time frame which can be very short and at the cost of further widening the gap in power. There are just way too many hurdles for the buff bug to overcome here.

I don't think you've provided any evidence at all. You haven't provided any evidence of him one-shotting baseline High 3-A beyond vague upscales.
Even without that, I have explained that one-shot gaps are different cross-verse and Pokemon have been capable of surviving fights against opponents with 4-10x AP amps. With Buzzwole's boosts he can buff himself just high enough to survive and with Swagger Espio will not be able to think straight to deal actual hits to Buzzwole. Espio's tongue is gonna go up his own ear with the disorientation levels we're talking about yet you're still treating it as some guaranteed victory.

 

[King_Clab]

Bump

 

[King_Clab]

Bump

 

[King_Clab]

Bump

 

[Causalist]

There's a very consistent showing of Confused state being that of a Pokemon being extremely disoriented to the point where they cannot recognize friend from foe and can attack themselves. The anime depicts that. Swagger adds anger to that.

Confusion has no bearing on any of the Pokemon's stats in-game, whether it's accuracy or speed, nor does it make them attack their own allies in double battles. Nothing from cutscenes or lore indicates these effects are canon to the games either afaik.

It wouldn't make him not move at all but it would make him too disoriented to attack Buzzwole in any way beyond basic straight forward attacks which allow for a grab.

That doesn't answer my question.

Supersonic is used twice in the scene, first by a normal Golbat, which shows a similar state of confusion, then by the more powerful one.

Hence the notion that status effect potency is reliant on power, a notion exclusive to the anime and blatantly absent from the games.

I don't think you've provided any evidence at all. You haven't provided any evidence of him one-shotting baseline High 3-A beyond vague upscales.

It's not vague because I provided the evidence you requested. When it comes to multipliers. Now the burden of proof is on you.

Even without that, I have explained that one-shot gaps are different cross-verse and Pokemon have been capable of surviving fights against opponents with 4-10x AP amps.

And I brought up the 8× Power Core multipliers in Sonic and how Espio being able to tank High 3-A attacks with no damage would mean (by your implied logic) he's well over 8× tougher (and by proxy, stronger) than baseline High 3-A. You said Pokémon can withstand attacks up to 10× stronger than their AP, but with Buzzwole already downscaling from High 3-A and his defense stat being equal to his attack, he's already unlikely to tank one attack from Espio if 10× is the highest number shown for a non-oneshot. I also brought up piercing damage from projectiles and the blitzing potential of the homing attack, both of which are spammable by Espio. One attack might already be Buzzwole's limit, but Espio has no reason to stop at one even before Buzzwole uses Swagger.

With Buzzwole's boosts he can buff himself just high enough to survive and with Swagger Espio will not be able to think straight to deal actual hits to Buzzwole.

If we are to assume Espio would lead with invisibillity, it's also fair to think Buzzwole would lead with Bulk Up or Harden, sure. But you haven't answered my question when it comes to Buzzwole's senses, so we still have no reason to assume they're sharp enough to catch even an extremely confused invisible Espio, and if neither of them start the fight by setting up like this and instead opt for CQC, Buzzwole is still screwed more often than not due to losing the stat trinity by a large margin (including speed due to Espio's spin dash) to a smaller target.

Espio's tongue is gonna go up his own ear with the disorientation levels we're talking about yet you're still treating it as some guaranteed victory.

How? He's literally going to be right up in Buzzwole's face and in the palms of his hands. Aren't you the one who's treating confusion as a garanteed victory when its inconsistancy alone makes it anything but? I'm treating Espio's tongue attack as a final resort if all else fails. It's technically possible for it to fail, but I find that unlikely for reasons above, and the fact that it's yet another hurdle for Buzzwole to overcome even after everything else just makes his odds of winning even slimmer.

 

[Arceus0x]

Confusion has no bearing on any of the Pokemon's stats in-game, whether it's accuracy or speed, nor does it make them attack their own allies in double battles. Nothing from cutscenes or lore indicates these effects are canon to the games either afaik.

Don't bring game mechanics here, I've given you clear examples of how disoriented Pokemon get just with one bit of confusion

That doesn't answer my question.

It's a good enough fact regardless

Hence the notion that status effect potency is reliant on power, a notion exclusive to the anime and blatantly absent from the games.

Again, game mechanics, stop bringing game mechanics into this when the mechanics in question constantly change beyond some basic ideas

It's not vague because I provided the evidence you requested. When it comes to multipliers. Now the burden of proof is on you.

Where

And I brought up the 8× Power Core multipliers in Sonic and how Espio being able to tank High 3-A attacks with no damage would mean (by your implied logic) he's well over 8× tougher (and by proxy, stronger) than baseline High 3-A. You said Pokémon can withstand attacks up to 10× stronger than their AP, but with Buzzwole already downscaling from High 3-A and his defense stat being equal to his attack, he's already unlikely to tank one attack from Espio if 10× is the highest number shown for a non-oneshot. I also brought up piercing damage from projectiles and the blitzing potential of the homing attack, both of which are spammable by Espio. One attack might already be Buzzwole's limit, but Espio has no reason to stop at one even before Buzzwole uses Swagger.

When did you even bring up the 8x core multipliers? Where even is that on the profile?

If we are to assume Espio would lead with invisibillity, it's also fair to think Buzzwole would lead with Bulk Up or Harden, sure. But you haven't answered my question when it comes to Buzzwole's senses, so we still have no reason to assume they're sharp enough to catch even an extremely confused invisible Espio, and if neither of them start the fight by setting up like this and instead opt for CQC, Buzzwole is still screwed more often than not due to losing the stat trinity by a large margin (including speed due to Espio's spin dash) to a smaller target.

Again, there's a weakness stated in his profiles where his steps can be heard, and with confusion in tact it allows further changes.

How? He's literally going to be right up in Buzzwole's face and in the palms of his hands. Aren't you the one who's treating confusion as a garanteed victory when its inconsistancy alone makes it anything but? I'm treating Espio's tongue attack as a final resort if all else fails. It's technically possible for it to fail, but I find that unlikely for reasons above, and the fact that it's yet another hurdle for Buzzwole to overcome even after everything else just makes his odds of winning even slimmer.

Again, if he gets grabbed, which will have him end up in a hold from behind, he won't be able to take him out with his tongue. All matters here are on whether he grabs Espio or not.

 

[Causalist]

Don't bring game mechanics here, I've given you clear examples of how disoriented Pokemon get just with one bit of confusion

Please refresh my memory if I forgot some. I saw:

-A clip of Seviper and Cacnea attacking each orher and their own trainers as a result of their confusion (They otherwise had the same coordination and accuracy as usual)

-A clip of Jesse and James' Pokemon being shortly stunned by Golbat's amped Supersonic as a result of an anime-exclusive power mechanic to the status of confusion or perhaps Supersonic itself functionning differently.

-This clip, which does not help your case at all... Especially since it's the only clip we have of Swagger being used in the anime.

It's a good enough fact regardless

Not really, because if we are to abide by anime logic, we have to aply that logic all the way. That's why I bring up the inconsistancies between it and the games. You brought up how Buzzwole outscales Golbat by a landslide and that by the anime's logic, his confusion status should be way more potent, but if that's the case, what it would end up doing is immobilizing Espio for a short bit like Golbat did, which would be advantageous in any other combat scenario, but not here where it's in Espio's best interest to stay put and out of sight during the confusion. You seem to try to have it both ways by saying Espio would be experiencing a combination of every effect confusion is shown to have all at once, when, as far as I remember, that has never happened. Either:

A: Espio experiences the confusion from the games, in which case Buzzwole gets demolished by an amped Espio at least 66.6% of the time.

B: He experiences the symptom of confusion shown by Seviper and Cacnea, which would make confusion a non-factor for Espio, who only has one target here

C: He experiences the symptom of confusion shown by Arbok and Weezing in King_Clab's clip. This is the best shot Buzzwole has at a victory since it would knock Espio down for a little bit. In order to grab his invisible body in time, Buzzwole would still need to pay very close attention to the sound of Espio collapsing, which wouldn't be loud due to how light he is and the fight taking place on the relatively soft terrain of Green Hill Zone. The question still remains of how good Buzzwole's senses are, but this scenario is also the least likely of the 3 due to the context and contradictary mechanics of it.

D: Espio experiences the symptoms of confusion shown explicitely by Swagger's one use in the anime, in wjich case he demolishes Buzzwole harder than Arbok demolished that Politoad.

Again, game mechanics, stop bringing game mechanics into this when the mechanics in question constantly change beyond some basic ideas

The anime clips you've shown already indicate that confusion is way less consistant outside of gameplay than it is in it.

Where

Here

When did you even bring up the 8x core multipliers? Where even is that on the profile?

I could ask the same for your claim that a 10× AP gap isn't one-shot worthy in Pokemon. We're still undergoing a scan restoration for the profiles, so I'll have to request help for them.

Again, there's a weakness stated in his profiles where his steps can be heard, and with confusion in tact it allows further changes.

Anyone's footsteps can be heard. The only reason it's brought up for Espio is because of his mastery of stealth. It's a pretty silly thing to bring up as a weakness, especillay since he's only ever been caught by characters with enhanced senses.

Again, if he gets grabbed, which will have him end up in a hold from behind, he won't be able to take him out with his tongue. All matters here are on whether he grabs Espio or not.

He can still strike Buzzwole's hands with it, not that Buzzwole would even be able to know which way Espio is facing when he's invisible.

I just realized something else... The fact that the fight takes place in Green Hill Zone would mean that Espio has access to rings and item boxes from the environment. He he collects either a shield or a bunch of rings, there goes Buzzwole's only win con since he'll no longer be able to pierce Espio's skin.

 

[Arceus0x]

Here

requested page could not be found lol

 

[Causalist]

Here:

If comparable multipliers are what you need, here you go:

In Sonic Heroes, any character can collect up to 3 Power Cores, with each one doubling the user's power. Despite this, comparable characters are still able to contend with each other somewhat evenly even when one has 3 Power Cores and the other has 0. If an 8x multiplier isn't enough to be able to no-sell attacks from an otherwise comparable opponent in Sonic Heroes, then that would mean the durabillity required in the verse to no-sell attacks would have to be well over 8x greater than the attack it withstands. Extremely close to the 10x example you used. We can therefore conclude that most of Buzzwole's attacks would be ineffective against Espio, and that Espio could knockout Buzzwole with one hit to the head, especially after a sharp attack boost from swagger or with the piercing damage of one of his weapons.

 

[Arceus0x]

Here:

Is this accepted for main scaling? Cause if the gap is actually accepted above 10x then it's generally a mismatch.

 

[Causalist]

Is this accepted for main scaling? Cause if the gap is actually accepted above 10x then it's generally a mismatch.

The multipliers are. I just applied your logic to them. By which Espio would be significantly above 8× High 3-A. Not 10. That's why I said Buzzwole could maybe tank one attack, but would need Endure to garantee it. No matter how strong Espio is, Endure + Swagger is a possible win con. It's just an extremely unlikely one compared to Espio's options. Especially since Espio could just hit him again mid-Swagger with easily spammable attacks.

 

[Arceus0x]

The multipliers are. I just applied your logic to them. By which Espio would be significantly above 8× High 3-A. Not 10. That's why I said Buzzwole could maybe tank one attack, but would need Endure to garantee it. No matter how strong Espio is, Endure + Swagger is a possible win con. It's just an extremely unlikely one compared to Espio's options. Especially since Espio could just hit him again mid-Swagger with easily spammable attacks.

Well, I think I still retain my position then. I still believe in the LS meta.

Though honestly this matchup itself may just get low-diffed by lack of votes lmao.

 

[King_Clab]

Come on everyone, WE NEED YOUR ENERGY! GIVE US VOTES!

 

[NitroWatch]

Come on everyone, WE NEED YOUR ENERGY! GIVE US VOTES!

Lol, I’ll throw my hat for the best Ultrabeast. I think Arceus’s arguments are more convincing

 

[King_Clab]

Vote counted

 

[Causalist]

Well, I think I still retain my position then. I still believe in the LS meta.

Though honestly this matchup itself may just get low-diffed by lack of votes lmao.

I would say that's fair, but you haven't adressed my objections to confusion as a reliable win con. It's too inconsistant of a status to say it would always cripple Espio to this extent, and even if it was, I think it's genuinely more likely for Espio to take out Buzzwole before he even gets affected by Swagger in the first place.

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

Espio FRA

 

[Causalist]

Espio FRA

Oh shit you're right! Chameleons eat bugs. Mismatch.

 

[King_Clab]

Espio FRA

Vote counted

 

[Arceus0x]

I would say that's fair, but you haven't adressed my objections to confusion as a reliable win con. It's too inconsistant of a status to say it would always cripple Espio to this extent, and even if it was, I think it's genuinely more likely for Espio to take out Buzzwole before he even gets affected by Swagger in the first place.

I heavily disagree with it being inconsistent. It's very simply a state in which an opponent is heavily disoriented to the point of not recognizing allies and even targeting himself during combat. It's as simple as that and with the added rage effect it makes the opponent attack directly.
Just because some stronger Pokemon can have a stronger effect doesn't change that it still has those effects.