Espio the Chameleon vs UB-02 Absorption

[King_Clab]

Bump

 

[Causalist]

Hey, wait a minute! Espio upscales from High 3-A via being able to hurt characters who can no-sell Babylon Guardian's High 3-A magic. Buzzwole downscales from Necrozma's High 3-A feat. We were led to believe that AP was equal but it seems to me like Espio should be able to win this in one or two hits.

 

[King_Clab]

Hey, wait a minute! Espio upscales from High 3-A via being able to hurt characters who can no-sell Babylon Guardian's High 3-A magic. Buzzwole downscales from Necrozma's High 3-A feat. We were led to believe that AP was equal but it seems to me like Espio should be able to win this in one or two hits.

Ahhh, I was wondering what the AP was for both of them, someone implied that it was equal.

 

[Arceus0x]

Is there any reason he scales to a one-shot?

 

[King_Clab]

Buzzwole downscales from Necrozma, unlike Nihilego, who is compared to be parasite in its Pokidex entries, and is implied to be the weakest Ultra Beast by itself.
Buzzwole fought evenly with a Tapu Koko, who could block and even damage Necrozma.
Espio definitely has the AP advantage, and it makes Buzzwole wincon less consistent.

 

[Arceus0x]

Buzzwole downscales from Necrozma, unlike Nihilego, who is compared to be parasite in its Pokidex entries, and is implied to be the weakest Ultra Beast by itself.
Buzzwole fought evenly with a Tapu Koko, who could block and even damage Necrozma.
Espio definitely has the AP advantage, and it makes Buzzwole wincon less consistent.

A one-shot un one verse doesn't really equal a one-shot in another. Even if Espio has AP advantage, I think Buzzwole surviving ling enough to use Swagger isn't an issue.

 

[King_Clab]

A one-shot un one verse doesn't really equal a one-shot in another. Even if Espio has AP advantage, I think Buzzwole surviving ling enough to use Swagger isn't an issue.

Buzzwole does have access to stat boosts to match the AP difference. Counter can be used to take advantage of it, while Harden can be used defensively to completely tank some weaker attacks from Espio.

Swagger on Espio is a huge risk, that can turn the tide into either fighters favor. I feel like Espio has the advantage, especially since since Buzzwole wincon is making Espio stronger, but I can see this going either way.

 

[Causalist]

A one-shot un one verse doesn't really equal a one-shot in another. Even if Espio has AP advantage, I think Buzzwole surviving ling enough to use Swagger isn't an issue.

It wouldn't be if not for the fact that Espio also has a massive speed advantage whenever he uses the spin dash or homing attack. Buzzwole's size alone makes it harder to avoid attacks, let alone from an invisible opponent, and we don't even know if he would lead with Swagger. I think it's more likely he gets taken out before it comes to that.

Also, if Espio hits him with a tornado, shouldn't it be 4× super effective? Then again, the move is called leaf swirl, so it would probably count as grass type and therefore be resisted. Funny how such a minor detail can make such a huge difference in the impact of the move, but it ultimately doesn't affect the virdict.

 

[Arceus0x]

It wouldn't be if not for the fact that Espio also has a massive speed advantage whenever he uses the spin dash or homing attack. Buzzwole's size alone makes it harder to avoid attacks, let alone from an invisible opponent, and we don't even know if he would lead with Swagger. I think it's more likely he gets taken out before it comes to that.

And I think with moves like Harden he can easily prolong his stay in the battle and Swagger is definitely not out of the question. Buzzwole's main attacks are punches but if he realizes the opponent is avoiding attacks with ease he can easily go for Swagger as one, he is an rpg character and thus doesn't have moves he wouldn't use at all, and two, he likes flexing a lot so swagger would even be in character.
If all it takes is one solid grab on Espio, I think that Buzzwole will have that chance.

Also, if Espio hits him with a tornado, shouldn't it be 4× super effective? Then again, the move is called leaf swirl, so it would probably count as grass type and therefore be resisted. Funny how such a minor detail can make such a huge difference in the impact of the move, but it ultimately doesn't affect the virdict.

Typing doesn't work that way, all attacks are powered by type energy. It's what separates attacks like Pound from attacks like Karate Chop or Mach Punch. The only two elements that are actively exempt from that are lightning and fire by being inherently damaging. If the leaves don't have grass type energy or if the wind doesn't have flying type energy, it simply will do neutral damage.

 

[King_Clab]

Also, if Espio hits him with a tornado, shouldn't it be 4× super effective?

Technically, yeah. I’m assuming Espio can create one with raw speed, if a Pidgey can do a small version of it.
Despite being called leaf swirl, it works a lot like hurricane, lifting the opponent into the air, so unironically it probably counts as flying type because leafs aren’t used to actually attack the opponent, but using this move is a unnecessary risk

 

[King_Clab]

Typing doesn't work that way, all attacks are powered by type energy. It's what separates attacks like Pound from attacks like Karate Chop or Mach Punch. The only two elements that are actively exempt from that are lightning and fire by being inherently damaging. If the leaves don't have grass type energy or if the wind doesn't have flying type energy, it simply will do neutral damage.

Oh, I understand it now

 

[Arceus0x]

Technically, yeah. I’m assuming Espio can create one with raw speed, if a Pidgey can do a small version of it.
Despite being called leaf swirl, it works a lot like hurricane, lifting the opponent into the air, so unironically it probably counts as flying type because leafs aren’t used to actually attack the opponent, but using this move is a unnecessary risk

Again, this is not how type advantages work. Flying type uses flying type energy that damages those specifically weak to Flying. Flying isn't Air type, it is specifically flying which means it includes not only air attacks but also wing attacks and feather attacks.

 

[Arceus0x]

Just to give a further example

Fairy Wind is an air attack with Fairy Energy. A bug type would take neutral damage. Silver wind is an air attack with bug energy, it would do bug type damage and half damage to but types.

 

[King_Clab]

Just to give a further example

Fairy Wind is an air attack with Fairy Energy. A bug type would take neutral damage. Silver wind is an air attack with bug energy, it would do bug type damage and half damage to but types.

So outside of Pokemon, someone wouldn’t be able to use the standard type attacks? (Outside of Fire, Water, electricity obviously)

 

[King_Clab]

It wouldn't be if not for the fact that Espio also has a massive speed advantage whenever he uses the spin dash or homing attack. Buzzwole's size alone makes it harder to avoid attacks, let alone from an invisible opponent, and we don't even know if he would lead with Swagger.

How does Espio’s invisibility work? (Like does it have a cool down?)

 

[Causalist]

Just to give a further example

Fairy Wind is an air attack with Fairy Energy. A bug type would take neutral damage. Silver wind is an air attack with bug energy, it would do bug type damage and half damage to but types.

Hence why I thought Leaf Swirl woukd be grass type, but yeah.

And I think with moves like Harden he can easily prolong his stay in the battle and Swagger is definitely not out of the question. Buzzwole's main attacks are punches but if he realizes the opponent is avoiding attacks with ease he can easily go for Swagger as one, he is an rpg character and thus doesn't have moves he wouldn't use at all, and two, he likes flexing a lot so swagger would even be in character.
If all it takes is one solid grab on Espio, I think that Buzzwole will have that chance.

Harden doesn't grant a huge enough defense buff to make up for the AP gap of Espio being able to casually no sell the kind of attacks Buzzwole downscales from, especially if Espio just starts the fight by throwing a ninja star in his head.

 

[Arceus0x]

So outside of Pokemon, someone wouldn’t be able to use the standard type attacks? (Outside of Fire, Water, electricity obviously)

Maybe in like another setting with soecific elemental energies but otherwise probably not.

 

[Causalist]

Bump

 

[Causalist]

bump

 

[AyOgUyS]

How does Espio’s invisibility work? (Like does it have a cool down?)

I think he can just go invisible whenever. It doesn't make narrative sense for it to last forever but I'm not sure if any cooldown is ever shown.

 

[Causalist]

I think he can just go invisible whenever. It doesn't make narrative sense for it to last forever but I'm not sure if any cooldown is ever shown.

He can and does go invisible for as long as he feels like, both in and out of gameplay.

 

[AyOgUyS]

He can and does go invisible for as long as he feels like, both in and out of gameplay.

Well I don't think Buzzwole has Extrasensory Perception so Espio could stealth diff and while Buzzwole has defensive options it still lacks the capability to reliably hit Espio. Which one of them has better stamina?

 

[Arceus0x]

Well I don't think Buzzwole has Extrasensory Perception so Espio could stealth diff and while Buzzwole has defensive options it still lacks the capability to reliably hit Espio. Which one of them has better stamina?

Buzzwole's Swagger could still work and since Espio isn't passively invisible Buzzwole will know he's there. Espio's stamina should be a bit better but it's comparable enough for them to last long enough to see each other fall. Buzzwole could rampage through an entire island whilst constantly engaging in combat and not get tired. He is also above any average mon and the average pokemon can journey for a whole day through dozens of dungeon floors whilst in near-constant combat.

 

[AyOgUyS]

the average pokemon can journey for a whole day through dozens of dungeon floors whilst in near-constant combat.

in that case buzzwole could probably stamina diff

 

[Arceus0x]

in that case buzzwole could probably stamina diff

Espio can manage it with AP advantage and such. I don't think this fight will draw out long I believe the only questions arr can Espio beat Buzzwole before he uses Swagger and if swagger is used can Espio still function well enough to stall out the confusion. Considering Swagger makes him angry and nothing stops Buzzwole from using it, especially against an invisible opponent, I think he wins the moment he gets a hold on the guy.

 

[Causalist]

in that case buzzwole could probably stamina diff

How? The fight would need to last AT LEAST several hours for either to outlast the other like this.

Espio can manage it with AP advantage and such. I don't think this fight will draw out long I believe the only questions arr can Espio beat Buzzwole before he uses Swagger and if swagger is used can Espio still function well enough to stall out the confusion. Considering Swagger makes him angry and nothing stops Buzzwole from using it, especially against an invisible opponent, I think he wins the moment he gets a hold on the guy.

The problem is that Espio will still be invisible even under the state of confusion. He has to turn it off himself. Buzzwole would need to grab the confused Espio immediately after being attacked by him since that's his only way of finding out where he is. With Espio's projectile options, greater maneuverabillity, and greater AP, I'm sure you can see how unlikely this is to happen. Even when angry and disoriented, Espio is more than smart enough to not just toss himself into Buzzwole's grip, but even if he did, he'd almost definitely one-shot Buzzwole in the process. Espio already has a sizeable AP advantage which is made sharply even higher by Swagger

 

[King_Clab]

It’s kinda funny this matchup is being decided by one ability from both sides

Even when angry and disoriented, Espio is more than smart enough to not just toss himself into Buzzwole's grip, but even if he did, he'd almost definitely one-shot Buzzwole in the process.

I agree with all your points points, except this part. If Espio gets grabbed, I feel like he would be too shocked too do anything right away, and get sucked into a rasin.

 

[Causalist]

It’s kinda funny this matchup is being decided by one ability from both sides



I agree with all your points points, except this part. If Espio gets grabbed, I feel like he would be too shocked too do anything right away, and get sucked into a rasin.

What I meant was that since Buzzwole needs to be hit by Espio in order to figure out where he is, then he most likely gets taken out by that one hit before he gets to capitalize on his counter attack..... Unless he uses Endure, now that I think about it... I guess Buzzwole has one more tool up his sleeve, if his combat IQ is high enough for it, but I still think Espio's victory is far more straightforward and likely for reasons above.

 

[Causalist]

Just thought of something else!! Even after being grabbed by Buzzwole and left unable to use any of his limbs, Espio can still strike Buzzwole's face with his longue tongue. That's sure to finish off the big bug even if he uses Endure for the previous hit.

 

[Arceus0x]

Just thought of sonething else!! Even after being grabbed by Buzzwole and left unable to use any of his limbs, Espio still has one more tool up his sleeve. He can strike Buzzwole's face with his longue tongue. That's sure to finish off the big bug even if he uses Endure for the previous hit.

ok, he strikes him once maybe, even if he does he's gonna get sucked dry within moments of getting grabbed (that thing is 460kg btw, Espio would get gulped up turn-one). To add to this as we see in the scene above stabs his snout in the back of the opponent so tongue kinda doesn't work here.

he problem is that Espio will still be invisible even under the state of confusion. He has to turn it off himself.

Sure, but in an agressive and confused state he'd make a lot of noise and attack Buzzwole directly, making it easy to get a hold of him. It is a stated weakness of Espio that his steps can be heard.

Buzzwole would need to grab the confused Espio immediately after being attacked by him since that's his only way of finding out where he is. With Espio's projectile options, greater maneuverabillity, and greater AP, I'm sure you can see how unlikely this is to happen.

Except that Swagger specifically angers the opponent and usually their first instinct is to directly attack the opponent. If he starts hurling projectiles he is gonna mostly miss his attacks or hurt himself in the process, giving enough time for Buzzwole to get a hold on him. In short, no, a very disoriented and angry Espio isn't gonna use projectiles much and if he does he's only likely to hit himself in the process.

Even when angry and disoriented, Espio is more than smart enough to not just toss himself into Buzzwole's grip, but even if he did, he'd almost definitely one-shot Buzzwole in the process.

I've still not seen him one-shotting someone who directly scales to High 3-A, and again, a one-shot in one world isn't a one-shot in another, Pokemon have shown surviving 10x boosted moves (Hitmontop) so Espio will need more than just one or two punches here, and that's not accounting for moves like Harden.

Also "smart enough" this isn't a smartness contest, he isn't going to be calculating his next move, he'll be struggling to get his head to funtion to try and actually not hit himself, all whilst angry.

Espio already has a sizeable AP advantage which is made sharply even higher by Swagger

In a state of confusion he is unlikely to beat him to that extent, not before Buzzwole grabs him and sucks up him up which would take moments.

 

[King_Clab]

A important question for this matchup is how far is the Babylon Gaurdian, and Base Necrozma into High 3-A?
I know Espio upscales, and Buzzwole downscales.
Base Necrozma is 1.198368*10^68J or the very edge of 3-C. I assume Babylon Gaurdian is just High 3-A straight up.

 

[Arceus0x]

A important question for this matchup is how far is the Babylon Gaurdian, and Base Necrozma into High 3-A?
I know Espio upscales, and Buzzwole downscales.
Base Necrozma is 1.198368*10^68J or the very edge of 3-C. I assume Babylon Gaurdian is just High 3-A straight up.

 

[King_Clab]

I've still not seen him one-shotting someone who directly scales to High 3-A, and again, a one-shot in one world isn't a one-shot in another, Pokemon have shown surviving 10x boosted moves (Hitmontop) so Espio will need more than just one or two punches here, and that's not accounting for moves like Harden.

I agree, but if Buzzwole can get stunned, and harmed by this, a Pokemon much weaker than him, then someone like Espio with a Swagger boost is definitely taking out Buzzwole with multiple hits (I don’t Espio would just hit Buzzwole once, he is definitely getting many attacks on Buzzwole before, and after swagger)

 

[King_Clab]

Let me cook

 

[Arceus0x]

I agree, but if Buzzwole can get stunned, and harmed by this, a Pokemon much weaker than him, then someone like Espio with a Swagger boost is definitely taking out Buzzwole with multiple hits (I don’t Espio would just hit Buzzwole once, he is definitely getting many attacks on Buzzwole before, and after swagger)

First, the Pokemon we use in vs matchups are lvl 100, as in, at their maximum potential, so above even the Buzzwole you see there. In fact, we know that Buzzwole can clash with Tapu Koko and by this point Pikachu isn't at the level where he actually 1v1d the guy. Next, Pikachu isn't that much weaker than Buzzwole in here either, he is heavily outsped but otherwise he tanks his attacks, gets up fast and can deal damage. Pikachu has always been more of a glass cannon but saying he's much weaker than him would be wrong.
To add to this, he was 'stunned' by a full power attack of 100 000 volts coursing through his body.

 

[Arceus0x]

Let me cook

they're both High 3-A, that means infinite energy. They can only scale higher or lower.

 

[Causalist]

First, the Pokemon we use in vs matchups are lvl 100, as in, at their maximum potential, so above even the Buzzwole you see there.

How far above? Do we have any idea of the level of the Buzzwole shown here?

A important question for this matchup is how far is the Babylon Gaurdian, and Base Necrozma into High 3-A?
I know Espio upscales, and Buzzwole downscales.
Base Necrozma is 1.198368*10^68J or the very edge of 3-C. I assume Babylon Gaurdian is just High 3-A straight up.

Let's clear this up before anything else:

Espio can harm the playable cast of Sonic Riders, who can no-sell Babylon Guardian's High 3-A magic. Characters like Sonic and Tails even explicitely trained to grow stronger in the time between their fight against Babylon Guardian and their encounter with Espio. This means Espio could definitely no-sell even Necrozma's attacks, from whom Buzzwole downscales from the guy he downscales from. The only way Buzzwole is reasonably hurting Espio in this fight is by using Counter, or MAYBE with piercing damage if it's shown to work on foes tougher than Buzzwole in canon. Idk if it is, so drinking Espio might straight up be an invalid win con.

In short, Buzzwole's win con is:
Swagger (which makes Espio far stronger than even Necrozma with 2 attack boosts), followed by Endure, followed by a grab (on a small invisible opponent), followed by avoiding Espio's tongue attack, which Buzzwole has no reason to suspect, followed by Counter or a jab to drain Espio which could debatably fail against the latter's greater durabillity.

Espio's win con is: Hitting Buzzwole in a vital area once, maybe twice, but the bug is only garanteed to survive the first hit if he uses Endure to brace for it.
This is facilitated by invisibillity, stealth, speed amps, smaller size, greater mobillity, access to projectiles, and if all else fails, an unpredictable tongue attack. The only thing that gets in the way is the RNG of confusion self-hits and the disorientation that comes from it for a short bit.

 

[Arceus0x]

How far above? Do we have any idea of the level of the Buzzwole shown here?

The Buzzwole we saw would be below the in-game Buzzwole as game Buzzwole could fight Tapu Koko. Tapu Koko downscales to some extent from Solgaleo and Lunala who use infinite energy and who scale directly to base Necrozma who, in turn, absorbed a universe worth of light (which is High 3-A). So Buzzwole downscales to some extent.

Let's clear this up before anything else:

Espio can harm the playable cast of Sonic Riders, who can no-sell Babylon Guardian's High 3-A magic.

Can you show them no-selling it? Because all I am finding is low quality footage that would kill anyone over the age of 40 and nobody gets hit once by the attacks because the guy barely attacks.

Characters like Sonic and Tails even explicitely trained to grow stronger in the time between their fight against Babylon Guardian and their encounter with Espio. This means Espio could definitely no-sell even Necrozma's attacks, from whom Buzzwole downscales from the guy he downscales from. The only way Buzzwole is reasonably hurting Espio in this fight is by using Counter, or MAYBE with piercing damage if it's shown to work on foes tougher than Buzzwole in canon. Idk if it is, so drinking Espio might straight up be an invalid win con.

Yeah no unless you show them just going full Senator Armstrong on that he is definitely piercing them, not to mention that he has attacks that give actual multipliers like Power Up Punch and Harden. So far I am seeing scaling chains but not enough actual scaling. With Buzzwole it is simple, he can fight Tapus, the Tapus fought against Ultra Beasts along with Solgaleo and Lunala, thus the downscales.

In short, Buzzwole's win con is:
Swagger (which makes Espio far stronger than even Necrozma with 2 attack boosts), followed by Endure, followed by a grab (on a small invisible opponent), followed by avoiding Espio's tongue attack, which Buzzwole has no reason to suspect, followed by Counter or a jab to drain Espio which could debatably fail against the latter's greater durabillity.

No, it is

• Tank some hits with either harden or endure
• Use Swagger once
• Espio struggles to function as he lunges at Buzzwole and gets grabbed

Espio's win con is: Hitting Buzzwole in a vital area once, maybe twice, but the bug is only garanteed to survive the first hit if he uses Endure to brace for it.
This is facilitated by invisibillity, stealth, speed amps, smaller size, greater mobillity, access to projectiles, and if all else fails, an unpredictable tongue attack. The only thing that gets in the way is the RNG of confusion self-hits and the disorientation that comes from it for a short bit.

Right, he will not one-hit or two-hit buzzwole, Pokemon tank moves from others who even have 10x attack boosts, a scaling chain with no multiplier from a universe with its own one-shot gaps is not gonna work here.
RNG of self confusion is mainly a game mechanic, in the anime we clearly see that the Pokemon is heavily disoriented to the point where it can barely move and sometimes succeeds in unleashing a move which is usually easily dodged.

At this point I think we should just let the people vote, we're starting to argue in circles.

 

[Arceus0x]

Just to add to this, confusion is a thing so bad that it basically can make two companions attack each other and then their own trainer. This isn't just some case of head being spinny.

I am trying to find more examples on youtube but post-adpocalypse YT is ass.

 

[King_Clab]

The Buzzwole we saw would be below the in-game Buzzwole as game Buzzwole could fight Tapu Koko. Tapu Koko downscales to some extent from Solgaleo and Lunala who use infinite energy and who scale directly to base Necrozma who, in turn, absorbed a universe worth of light (which is High 3-A). So Buzzwole downscales to some extent.

I’m a lil confused (Pokemon scaling is kinda messy TBF). Since we use level 100, shouldn’t a level 100 Buzzwole (A wild in game Buzzwole is Level 60, which is likely the level they fought Tapu Koko at) upscale from the Necrozma who fought Elio? (Who was level 65?)
I know Necrozma performed the light absorption in the manga, but from what I see, we combine the continuities together for Pokemon (Except in special cases).