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Lookism Discussion Thread

CatLover313 said:
Being narratively above someone can be argumentative for AP but LS is still different. You can be able to beat or even easily beat someone but that doesn’t mean you have higher LS than them unless there’s actually some sort of contest of strength.
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Well, apologies for my lack of knowledge on this topic. So then, how did Changsu get Class 100 despite having no direct ties to Zack in terms of LS?
 
Sigmagoon14 said:
Well, apologies for my lack of knowledge on this topic. So then, how did Changsu get Class 100 despite having no direct ties to Zack in terms of LS?
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That was not me nor did I notice. I was always of the opinion that we wouldn't scale anyone to Zack's feat till more of that version was shown.
 
Wait who made that page anyway, don't we need a CRT for new characters on existing verses?
 
CatLover313 said:
Wait who made that page anyway, don't we need a CRT for new characters on existing verses?
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Just checked, you don't need a CRT for new characters on long-existing verses. Kind of sneaky to just make it without any discussion, but just to make my stance known, I def disagree with the LS rating
 
Sigmagoon14 said:
That's not even worse, the worse crap PTJ ever cooked was"ohh they are on par with Gun" And "Tom level Physical stats" Like if we go by narrative Zack is legit GD arc Base Gun level, Another being if we go by Raws Jichang should be easily HFG base Gun level with his Daniel's statement and Elite's offer... Guess what both Zack and Jichang gets cliffed by Jaegyeon🧍🏻
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To be fair to the Jichang thing, for statments like that I always assume the characters are making their statment based on what they have experienced or have knowledge of, I don't think Daniel has ever seen Gun go all out before given that a holding back base HFG completely ragdolled Daniel while having a poker face on

As for the Charles thing I'd assume that while Jichang is weaker than Goo he would be a lot more reliable and make up for it with his insane BIQ and business skills

For me the worst thing is Charles Choi somehow going from struggling with Jichang to mopping the floor with basement hulk TWICE😭

Ig you could say the disparity is not due to stats but rather Jichang making up for the large stat gap via insane BIQ while basement hulk was getting BIQ diff'd by Charles despite the larger stat gap in his favor, though Charles did take a punch to the face from basement hulk so💀
 
Pyro9278 said:
The military trio should only be rated "Possibly," though Jincheol Park did push Goo quite hard to fight seriously. I think Samdak and Sophia should be rated High 8-C, as they are narratively superior.
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For Sophia and Samdak I can see a case being made, though for Jincheol against Goo, while Goo did take the fight seriously it was Goo with a pocket watch, not Goo with a twin sword using moonlight, and based on the difference in power between Goo with a weapon and Goo with a single sword without even using moonlight, against Tom and UI Daniel, its not looking good for Korean holds back man😭🙏 (I love Jincheol)
 
CatLover313 said:
That was not me nor did I notice. I was always of the opinion that we wouldn't scale anyone to Zack's feat till more of that version was shown.
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Their is kind of an argument to be made that most of the cast get general all round stat power creep, I mean Incheon literally started with Yujae casually lifting Jake above his head one handed

And we have seen that all the characters that scale to below Changsu all had to do some sort of insane LS related training multiple times, and we are consistently shown that even fodder tiers like the 3A executives can throw statues and stuff, and fodder tiers like HFW Kenta trained by pushing a comically large rock so it would be kind of weird if Changsu who cannocially has strenght mastery and can endure an ass whooping from Jinyoung somehow got that strong without lifting a day in his life lol
 
Powerscalingcat said:
Their is kind of an argument to be made that most of the cast get general all round stat power creep, I mean Incheon literally started with Yujae casually lifting Jake above his head one handed

And we have seen that all the characters that scale to below Changsu all had to do some sort of insane LS related training multiple times, and we are consistently shown that even fodder tiers like the 3A executives can throw statues and stuff, and fodder tiers like HFW Kenta trained by pushing a comically large rock so it would be kind of weird if Changsu who cannocially has strenght mastery and can endure an ass whooping from Jinyoung somehow got that strong without lifting a day in his life lol
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The zack that performed the Class 100 feat was the one in Hunt for Workers and while I heavily doubt he is top 10 strongest alive right now, there is no great scaling to his current form until we get more showings. Especially with LS which is more than just being able to beat who and more of requiring strength feats.
 
Powerscalingcat said:
For Sophia and Samdak I can see a case being made, though for Jincheol against Goo, while Goo did take the fight seriously it was Goo with a pocket watch, not Goo with a twin sword using moonlight, and based on the difference in power between Goo with a weapon and Goo with a single sword without even using moonlight, against Tom and UI Daniel, its not looking good for Korean holds back man😭🙏 (I love Jincheol)
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Yeah, Goo wasn't at his full potential, but that doesn't mean his AP and Durability were only High 8-C with a sword. Goo had to use every resource at his disposal, and even then, Jincheol fought "holding back," since we didn't see him use CQC or War Mode. I'm not saying Jincheol > Goo, but I think they're at least comparable.
 
Pyro9278 said:
Yeah, Goo wasn't at his full potential, but that doesn't mean his AP and Durability were only High 8-C with a sword. Goo had to use every resource at his disposal, and even then, Jincheol fought "holding back," since we didn't see him use CQC or War Mode. I'm not saying Jincheol > Goo, but I think they're at least comparable.
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Yeah, in terms of holding back they're comparable. But at 4 Moonlight and War Mode? I don't think so. Because again Tom(The big rock if scaling)....Tom while holding back scales higher than Patch 100% Hansoo. By King's statement, who should be above War Mode Jincheol and S1 Manager Kim. And from the 1A Arc statement: 4M Goo = Full Power Tom > Holding Back Tom ≥ Patch 100% Hansoo > War Mode Jincheol.

So yeah, they are definitely not comparable.
 
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Sigmagoon14 said:
Yeah, in terms of holding back they're comparable. But at 4 Moonlight and War Mode? I don't think so. Because again Tom(The big rock if scaling)....Tom while holding back scales higher than Patch 100% Hansoo. By King's statement, who should be above War Mode Jincheol and S1 Manager Kim. And from the 1A Arc statement: 4M Goo = Full Power Tom > Holding Back Tom ≥ Patch 100% Hansoo > War Mode Jincheol.

So yeah, they are definitely not comparable.
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But it still does not refute that: War Mode Jincheol > Rolex Goo ≈ Jincheol Base = Base Goo (High 8-C)

In other words, Goo isn't reaching High 8-C just by carrying weapons or a sword. He's reaching High 8-C even from his base level, and from there on, it's all about amplifiers (mainly speed and combat prowess).
 
Powerscalingcat said:
To be fair to the Jichang thing, for statments like that I always assume the characters are making their statment based on what they have experienced or have knowledge of, I don't think Daniel has ever seen Gun go all out before given that a holding back base HFG completely ragdolled Daniel while having a poker face on

As for the Charles thing I'd assume that while Jichang is weaker than Goo he would be a lot more reliable and make up for it with his insane BIQ and business skills

For me the worst thing is Charles Choi somehow going from struggling with Jichang to mopping the floor with basement hulk TWICE😭

Ig you could say the disparity is not due to stats but rather Jichang making up for the large stat gap via insane BIQ while basement hulk was getting BIQ diff'd by Charles despite the larger stat gap in his favor, though Charles did take a punch to the face from basement hulk so💀
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That's an argument I often consider as well. PTJ commonly seems to try to portray character skill and BIQ as something that can compensate for the AP gap between fighters, or that fighting in groups can lead to one fighter losing (ahem James ahem ahem), although sometimes that very argument is... redundant (HFG).
 
CatLover313 said:
Dang... Just realized Reiner04 retired, time for lookism threads to become 2 months long again
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😭
My exams are over now so I am gonna start working on part 2 of the chain scaling tomorrow

Does anyone have any suggestions for downscaling multipliers for the Logan bike feat? Since while BOJ high do technically scale there are a few tiers between BOS J high and HOSTEL A Logan (BOS Zack -> BOS Vasco -> Jin Jang -> Muai Thai Vasco -> old boys -> 1 hostel uncle -> 2 hostel uncles = Bret Lee = Logan Lee)

There are 7 tiers between BOS J high and Hostel Logan

So my suggestion is for BOS j high to scale /3.5x Logan's bike feat, 3x for BOS Vasco and Zeus (will get to them in part 2 tomorrow), 2.5x for jin jang, 2x for Muai Thai Vasco and the old boys, 1.5x for one hostel uncle, and finally anyone who scales to Logan, like Jay, hostel Vasco, Zack (everyone during that arc really lol) should scale to the full feat

Thoughts?
 
Powerscalingcat said:
😭
My exams are over now so I am gonna start working on part 2 of the chain scaling tomorrow

Does anyone have any suggestions for downscaling multipliers for the Logan bike feat? Since while BOJ high do technically scale there are a few tiers between BOS J high and HOSTEL A Logan (BOS Zack -> BOS Vasco -> Jin Jang -> Muai Thai Vasco -> old boys -> 1 hostel uncle -> 2 hostel uncles = Bret Lee = Logan Lee)

There are 7 tiers between BOS J high and Hostel Logan

So my suggestion is for BOS j high to scale /3.5x Logan's bike feat, 3x for BOS Vasco and Zeus (will get to them in part 2 tomorrow), 2.5x for jin jang, 2x for Muai Thai Vasco and the old boys, 1.5x for one hostel uncle, and finally anyone who scales to Logan, like Jay, hostel Vasco, Zack (everyone during that arc really lol) should scale to the full feat

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Can't make multiplier's for those kinds of scaling chains unless some sort of statement is involved (like character A was several times stronger than character B), unless you're just doing this for fun in which go ahead.
 
CatLover313 said:
Can't make multiplier's for those kinds of scaling chains unless some sort of statement is involved (like character A was several times stronger than character B), unless you're just doing this for fun in which go ahead.
Click to expand...
Oh apologies I was making the suggestion based on the chainscale OPM has on its vswiki thread, where characters are sometimes scaled 1/3 of a feat or 2x above a feat. Even though none of those multipliers are statments based

Anyhow is there any way to scale the characters then? Because prior to the Logan feat I don't think we have any other feat to scale them to, so is that part of the chain scale just going to be left blank? Like what are the 'offical' procedures when making a chainscale with no calcs to attach? Do we just state that 'x character scales below y feat' and leave it at that?

For context I agreed to help Pyro make a more in depth arc by arc chain scale the way a lot of other vswiki verses have one (RQ, OPM etc) which is why I was making that suggestion, I thought it was allowed so long as it was reasonable (personally BOS Zack is at least low complex multi- /j)
 
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Powerscalingcat said:
Oh apologies I was making the suggestion based on the chainscale OPM has on its vswiki thread, where characters are sometimes scaled 1/3 of a feat or 2x above a feat. Even though none of those multipliers are statments based

Anyhow is there any way to scale the characters then? Because prior to the Logan feat I don't think we have any other feat to scale them to, so is that part of the chain scale just going to be left blank? Like what are the 'offical' procedures when making a chainscale with no calcs to attach? Do we just state that 'x character scales below y feat' and leave it at that?
Click to expand...
I do know that there is an upscaling thread being made where if said character A one shots or destroys said character B and character B is like 1.1x-1.2x away from the next level, character A can potentially be upscaled to the next tier. Though I'm looking at the OPM page and they do have a scaling chain but they also have the calcs to back up each scaling level so while they do have multipliers, it seems to be 1 level from the feat.

Edit: but I don’t follow opm scaling so they probs have a thread somewhere about the numbers.
 
CatLover313 said:
I do know that there is an upscaling thread being made where if said character A one shots or destroys said character B and character B is like 1.1x-1.2x away from the next level, character A can potentially be upscaled to the next tier. Though I'm looking at the OPM page and they do have a scaling chain but they also have the calcs to back up each scaling level so while they do have multipliers, it seems to be 1 level from the feat.
Click to expand...
Just to clarify and make sure there hasn't been a miscommunication my suggestion is to DOWNSCALE the BOS J high by diving Logan's explosion tanking feat by 3.5 or by some other number agreed upon by the community

As lookism has pretty well outlined tiers, Jin Jang was low diffing BOS Vasco, Muai Thai Vasco low diff'd Jin Jang, the old boys can all low diff Jin Jang, a single hostel uncle low diff'd an old boy, Logan can probably low diff a single hostel uncle on his own

Ik the OPM thread cites its calcs but the multipliers they use to scale the characters don't have any citation and don't come from any inverse statment that x character scales to 1/3 or 2x of y feat, so I thought the suggestion was fine since its not upscaling the characters as they should all scale to it just to a lower degree (unless the main cast started out as normal humans and somehow got like 1000x+ times stronger than the average human in the span of a few months/weeks lol)
 
Powerscalingcat said:
Just to clarify and make sure there hasn't been a miscommunication my suggestion is to DOWNSCALE the BOS J high by diving Logan's explosion tanking feat by 3.5 or by some other number agreed upon by the community

As lookism has pretty well outlined tiers, Jin Jang was low diffing BOS Vasco, Muai Thai Vasco low diff'd Jin Jang, the old boys can all low diff Jin Jang, a single hostel uncle low diff'd an old boy, Logan can probably low diff a single hostel uncle on his own

Ik the OPM thread cites its calcs but the multipliers they use to scale the characters don't have any citation and don't come from any inverse statment that x character scales to 1/3 or 2x of y feat, so I thought the suggestion was fine since its not upscaling the characters as they should all scale to it just to a lower degree (unless the main cast started out as normal humans and somehow got like 1000x+ times stronger than the average human in the span of a few months/weeks lol)
Click to expand...
Well I won't comment too much on their scaling and don't want to go searching around the OPM threads. Just not a big fan of making numbers out of nowhere and I like to just try to find the best feat to where they scale to and use "At Least/At Most/Higher" terms with the sole exceptions of one-time upscaling.
 
CatLover313 said:
Well I won't comment too much on their scaling and don't want to go searching around the OPM threads. Just not a big fan of making numbers out of nowhere and I like to just try to find the best feat to where they scale to and use "At Least/At Most/Higher" terms with the sole exceptions of one-time upscaling.
Click to expand...
Fair enough, I'll scrap the idea then, tho do we have a term for "lower than" or something like that because none of the normal ones would be applicable otherwise we would just have to slap "at most logan feat" for all of them, either that or maybe someone can go recalc some earlier smaller scale feats? I remember Vasco slightly cracking the floor with his punch during the idol agency arc. We also had Seth Lee bending steel with his thumb (surpised that never got a calc it should be at least slightly superhuman no?)

Or early series Daniel lifting the cheoninlang fam who was lifting a bike with a bunch of people on it etc
 
Powerscalingcat said:
Fair enough, I'll scrap the idea then, tho do we have a term for "lower than" or something like that because none of the normal ones would be applicable otherwise we would just have to slap "at most logan feat" for all of them, either that or maybe someone can go recalc some earlier smaller scale feats? I remember Vasco slightly cracking the floor with his punch during the idol agency arc. We also had Seth Lee bending steel with his thumb (surpised that never got a calc it should be at least slightly superhuman no?)

Or early series Daniel lifting the cheoninlang fam who was lifting a bike with a bunch of people on it etc
Click to expand...
There is a Lower than, I believe all the terms are At Least/At Most/Likely/Possibly/Higher/Lower/Varies. You just won't see "Lower than" very often, probably the most rare term with the second most rare term being "At Most".
 
Powerscalingcat said:
Anyhow is there any way to scale the characters then? Because prior to the Logan feat I don't think we have any other feat to scale them to, so is that part of the chain scale just going to be left blank? Like what are the 'offical' procedures when making a chainscale with no calcs to attach? Do we just state that 'x character scales below y feat' and leave it at that?
Click to expand...

Why don't you use this Feat for BOS? I mean it was done by Suhyeon with E stat, so everyone and their Grandma can scale to this
 
Sigmagoon14 said:
Why don't you use this Feat for BOS? I mean it was done by Suhyeon with E stat, so everyone and their Grandma can scale to this
Click to expand...
That was my first proposal but it was declined because Syheon performed this using maximum capacity which also allowed him to beat BOS Hajun who had 2 A and 1 S stat, for context post workers training Jin Jang has A+ all around stats, and pre training Jin Jang was able to nearly beat BOS Vasco

BOS J high (the ones I named in part 1) scale way below this feat narratively, so we'll most likely just have to go with, 'lower than Logan feat' until we reach the hostel section of the chain scale
 
Powerscalingcat said:
That was my first proposal but it was declined because Syheon performed this using maximum capacity which also allowed him to beat BOS Hajun who had 2 A and 1 S stat,
Click to expand...
Maximum Capacity only increases weight, not stats. If the card boosted stats, we would’ve seen it. Suhyeon was only able to beat Hajun because Hajun let his guard down and let Suhyeon get close enough to grab him and got outsmarted like Vasco and Choyun. That’s why I don’t think MC Card should be a reason to reject the feat. If MC Card increased stats, it would’ve been shown.
Powerscalingcat said:
for context post workers training Jin Jang has A+ all around stats, and pre training Jin Jang was able to nearly beat BOS Vasco
Click to expand...
I also don’t think it’s viable to say Jin Jang scales higher. Daniel was able to manhandle Choyun, who had S intelligence and multiple Martial arts plus better stats. Vasco fought Jin Jang by spamming 3 moves with intelligence stat of Toddler with Walnut size brain, which Jin Jang dodged with ANPR. The moment Jin Jang got hit by a single strike, his eyes bulged. To back this up, Jin Jang himself says Vasco was strong but predictable. So the only reason Vasco lost is because Vasco is dumb.
Powerscalingcat said:
BOS J high (the ones I named in part 1) scale way below this feat narratively, so we'll most likely just have to go with, 'lower than Logan feat' until we reach the hostel section of the chain scale
Click to expand...
It wouldn’t make sense for Suhyeon, with E stats which are the lowest, to scale higher than BOS J-High just because he weighs 343 pounds.
 
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Sigmagoon14 said:
Maximum Capacity only increases weight, not stats. If the card boosted stats, we would’ve seen it. Suhyeon was only able to beat Hajun because Hajun let his guard down and let Suhyeon get close enough to grab him and got outsmarted like Vasco and Choyun. That’s why I don’t think MC Card should be a reason to reject the feat. If MC Card increased stats, it would’ve been shown.

I also don’t think it’s viable to say Jin Jang scales higher. Daniel was able to manhandle Choyun, who had S intelligence and multiple Martial arts plus better stats. Vasco fought Jin Jang by spamming 3 moves with intelligence stat of Toddler with Walnut size brain, which Jin Jang dodged with ANPR. The moment Jin Jang got hit by a single strike, his eyes bulged. To back this up, Jin Jang himself says Vasco was strong but predictable. So the only reason Vasco lost is because Vasco is dumb.

It wouldn’t make sense for Suhyeon, with E stats which are the lowest, to scale higher than BOS J-High just because he weighs 343 pounds.
Click to expand...
Max Capacity actually has one panel of it increasing his strength and endurance stats (but it was a crappy increase; A+ strength to S- and C endurance to A). Link here. Considering BoS Suhyeon had like E stats, at max his strength and endurance would be raised to B and considering Jin Jang before finishing his training had A+ stats all around, BoS J High should have A-B average stats. Though I won’t argue too much as I don’t like to scale Questism due to the many assumptions needed. Just wanted to point out the Max Cap stat increase
 
CatLover313 said:
Max Capacity actually has one panel of it increasing his strength and endurance stats (but it was a crappy increase; A+ strength to S- and C endurance to A). Link here. Considering BoS Suhyeon had like E stats, at max his strength and endurance would be raised to B and considering Jin Jang before finishing his training had A+ stats all around, BoS J High should have A-B average stats. Though I won’t argue too much as I don’t like to scale Questism due to the many assumptions needed. Just wanted to point out the Max Cap stat increase
Click to expand...
Irc even in early questism its shown that the gap between each stat is harder to bridge, meaning that from A+ to S- maximum capacity probably started having diminishing returns.

As for Jin Jang I am pretty sure it's post training, as Syheon's escapades as bagman Kim happen well into the workers saga.
 
Powerscalingcat said:
Irc even in early questism its shown that the gap between each stat is harder to bridge, meaning that from A+ to S- maximum capacity probably started having diminishing returns.

As for Jin Jang I am pretty sure it's post training, as Syheon's escapades as bagman Kim happen well into the workers saga.
Click to expand...
We don’t know how long he’s training for, but it’s def not complete yet. He’d have his white workers jacket for completion, but mid-training is fair to assume. Though that just makes it even harder to compare tbh
 
CatLover313 said:
We don’t know how long he’s training for, but it’s def not complete yet. He’d have his white workers jacket for completion, but mid-training is fair to assume. Though that just makes it even harder to compare tbh
Click to expand...
Fair enough btw do you know how I can paste a message from sandbox WITH its formatting? I want to show you guys the new scaling template I am working on and have your thoughts on it

Edit: aha figured it out!
Thread 'WIP' https://vsbattles.com/threads/wip.192175/

Hopefully you guys can see this, feel free to comment on what I should remove add, etc

I am mainly using this as a form of training/warm up before I get to the ACTUAL important scaling.

Hopefully its better compared to last time🥺
 
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Powerscalingcat said:
Fair enough btw do you know how I can paste a message from sandbox WITH its formatting? I want to show you guys the new scaling template I am working on and have your thoughts on it

Edit: aha figured it out!
Thread 'WIP' https://vsbattles.com/threads/wip.192175/

Hopefully you guys can see this, feel free to comment on what I should remove add, etc

I am mainly using this as a form of training/warm up before I get to the ACTUAL important scaling.

Hopefully its better compared to last time🥺
Click to expand...
No clue, can probably ask a quick question on the All-Purpose thread
 
723143934_1736100724471533_914128911883083437_n.png
 
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