Tier 9 Humanoid Tournament Round 2 Match 4: Alice Fuji vs Sans

[XxZetsuxX]

Like, here is an example

Character A has a gun in his standard equipment

Character B has no guns

So the match is normally considered a stomp right?

We can make a scenario for this which makes character A not use his guns, for example, character B asks character A for a friendly boxing match

This will make character A not use his gun

 

[ARandomDude127]

Yes, you can add context for the match AKA scenarios

Dw I’m MORE than aware, I’m surprised people don’t abuse stuff like that more. You can even give the characters misleading prior knowledge.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

No, SBA is optional

Again, you can create scenarios where Sans actually engages in a fight

I really don't see how changing the way a battle functions for a specific character wouldn't require a note on their profile, which would subsequently require a CRT to implement.

I mean, you guys want to force Sans to operate under standard SBA when, honestly, we could just add something like “Prior Information on X” as a condition for him instead.

Anyway, this is getting off-topic. Let's drop it now.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I really don't see how changing the way a battle functions for a specific character wouldn't require a note on their profile, which would subsequently require a CRT to implement.

I mean, you guys want to force Sans to operate under standard SBA when, honestly, we could just add something like “Prior Information on X” as a condition for him instead.

Anyway, this is getting off-topic. Let's drop it now.

This stuff has been done several times, it's not against the rules idk what to tell you

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

This stuff has been done several times, it's not against the rules idk what to tell you

I never said it was, bro.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Just saying it doesn't require a note or a CRT, that's all

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

In any case, this is still a stomp.

 

[Friedoil11]

Maybe making Sans Bloodlusted will maybe make so that he won't flee as soon as the fight start.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Maybe making Sans Bloodlusted will maybe make so that he won't flee as soon as the fight start.

Blood lust will make him flee too lol

Blood lust is basically making you use your best move at the start

 

[Arceus0x]

nothing stops you from attacking sans again after he leaves technically. Like yeah, under the UT system he 'won', but by SBA he didn't and the opponent didn't lose the will to fight either.

Either way, Sans' first move is slamming the opponent down into the ground and stabbing them with a bunch of bones and unless Alice has solid danmaku dodging or a way to clear out the attacks, she kinda just dies.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Either way, Sans' first move is slamming the opponent down into the ground and stabbing them with a bunch of bones and unless Alice has solid danmaku dodging or a way to clear out the attacks, she kinda just dies.

Alice has like a double blitz speed amp or smth but sans apparently also nullifies that now with the turn thing.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

nothing stops you from attacking sans again after he leaves technically. Like yeah, under the UT system he 'won', but by SBA he didn't and the opponent didn't lose the will to fight either.

You are invalidating an ability he has, you can't do that

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

You are invalidating an ability he has, you can't do that

sans after kicking you out of a fight and winning: "it's not a very efficient way of fighting"

 

[Arceus0x]

You are invalidating an ability he has, you can't do that

I feel like this is gonna have to be something I'll need to address in a thread because winning in an encounter shouldn't count as winning the battle unless specified by SBA that it counts.

sans after kicking you out of a fight and winning: "it's not a very efficient way of fighting"

considering you can challenge him again and again, as long as one avoids going into an encounter (like range spam Undyne style) that should be enough to win

 

[XxZetsuxX]

sans after kicking you out of a fight and winning: "it's not a very efficient way of fighting"

It's still something he did

And again, you can't do anything while it's his turn

 

[Arceus0x]

It's still something he did

And again, you can't do anything while it's his turn

you can 'flee' and then attack him again. The turn thing yes, he entraps you in the law manip, but that would be his ult.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

you can 'flee' and then attack him again. The turn thing yes, he entraps you in the law manip, but that would be his ult.

If i understood his 4th wall well, it means now you can't do anything at all when it's his turn

 

[Arceus0x]

If i understood his 4th wall well, it means now you can't do anything at all when it's his turn

sure but the thing is, I ain't even arguing about the opponent here. I am saying that if Sans either ends the encounter or is attacked a pacifist encounter ending by him leaving then he could still be ended. His not doing anything turn is also not law manip btw, the soul is specifically restricted by his telekinesis as we see his eye shine every time we get returned.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

His not doing anything turn is also not law manip btw, the soul is specifically restricted by his telekinesis as we see his eye shine every time we get returned.

TP. At the same time the box also doesn't actually exist, so we were also pulling some 4th wall shit too.

 

[Arceus0x]

TP. At the same time the box also doesn't actually exist, so we were also pulling some 4th wall shit too.

we got out through 4th wall BS yes, but like, if Sans was fighting a guy who has, idk, telekinesis, he'd get turned into jelly. The soul can attack to some extent during fights like with the yellow soul mode so it's not exactly out of the question.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

we got out through 4th wall BS yes, but like, if Sans was fighting a guy who has, idk, telekinesis, he'd get turned into jelly. The soul can attack to some extent during fights like with the yellow soul mode so it's not exactly out of the question.

I dunno, Yellow Mode feels like a pretty special case (Ya know turns your SOUL into a gun) considering the turn thing also stopped us from doing basic ACTs, eating a waffle or just like shooting sans with the Justice's SOUL gun which should work going by your interpretation.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

nothing stops you from attacking sans again after he leaves technically. Like yeah, under the UT system he 'won', but by SBA he didn't and the opponent didn't lose the will to fight either.

How do you know that, exactly? Other than from your headcanon, of course. Because when Sans leaves, the opponent is effectively forced to fight a literal nothingness. The guy just straight up gone when Frisk flee the battle.

It's funny how this ability can genuinely work and secure a win within its own setting, yet suddenly becomes “not applicable” in a crossover match...? It's almost like you're arguing that the system isn't a fundamental aspect of the verse (that the battle system is only uniquely tied to Undertale and it wouldn't work in a crossover match when we literally have Verse Equalization) and that exploiting or circumventing it isn't a legitimate ability in the first place. If the premise is accepted within the verse, then it should remain the same in a crossover scenario. That's the entire point.

Honestly, this feels like the old “Undertale is just a game, so none of it matters!” argument all over again, xD.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

considering you can challenge him again and again, as long as one avoids going into an encounter (like range spam Undyne style) that should be enough to win

No, you literally can't. If you actually watch the 10th Anniversary content, the guy just straight up disappears. He's gone. He only shows up again later on, but not immediately afterward.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

No, you literally can't, the guy just straight up gone if you actually watch the 10th Anniversary content. He only appears again some time later, but not that soon.

I mean he's still on the planet, so blowing up the planet after he leaves would probably do him in.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

I mean he's still on the planet, so blowing up the planet after he leaves would probably do him in.

Well, in that case, it wouldn't really matter. From the opponent's perspective, Sans is simply gone and the fight is effectively over, so they'd likely assume they won. This is most of the cases with character who has BFR, they'd assume their opponent wouldn't come back from that and probably think they win the fight.

I don't really see another reasonable assumption here unless we're assuming the opponent have the exact same mindset as Frisk (or the player). Most characters aren't going to stand around indefinitely fighting literal nothingness. They'd just leave the arena as well once it becomes apparent that Sans is no longer there.

The general fight with Sans would be like this:

Sans vs X
Sans: hey. aigh't cya later.
X: ???????

 

[ARandomDude127]

How do you know that, exactly? Other than from your headcanon, of course. Because when Sans leaves, the opponent is effectively forced to fight a literal nothingness. The guy just straight up gone when Frisk flee the battle.

It's funny how this ability can genuinely work and secure a win within its own setting, yet suddenly becomes “not applicable” in a crossover match...? It's almost like you're arguing that the system isn't a fundamental aspect of the verse (that the battle system is only uniquely tied to Undertale and it wouldn't work in a crossover match when we literally have Verse Equalization) and that exploiting or circumventing it isn't a legitimate ability in the first place. If the premise is accepted within the verse, then it should remain the same in a crossover scenario. That's the entire point.

Honestly, this feels like the old “Undertale is just a game, so none of it matters!” argument all over again, xD.

So can anyone even beat Sans in this tournament or does he effectively just stomp everyone here

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

So can anyone even beat Sans in this tournament or does he effectively just stomp everyone here

Most probably, yeah. But I don't know who the rest of the characters in this tournament are.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

I mean he's still on the planet, so blowing up the planet after he leaves would probably do him in.

Even then, I don't really think the guy is going to stay in the arena once he does this. If the system counts it as a win, he'd probably just head straight back to his own verse and go back to being an Undertale guy again. The same goes with his opponent. He already won, so there's really no reason for him to remain in the arena any longer.

Isn't this the logic once a matchup ended? They're back on their respective verse?

 

[ARandomDude127]

Most probably, yeah. But I don't know who the rest of the characters in this tournament are.

Cuphead, Hank J. Wimbleton, Todd Fang, Khatep, The Reaper, and Jack The Ripper are the ones still here excluding Sans and Alice

Edit: Nvm Khatep whoops the shit out of Sans

 

[ARandomDude127]

Isn't this the logic once a matchup ended? They're back on their respective verse?

Not if I recall, unless someone specifically makes a story on what happens after I’m pretty sure the opponent just moves on, ofc unless they themselves can go back to their verse.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Cuphead, Hank J. Wimbleton, Todd Fang, Khatep, The Reaper, and Jack The Ripper are the ones still here excluding Sans and Alice

How is Khatep even in this, tf?

Anyway, most of the characters here don't really stand a chance, unless their supporters have some arguments I'm not aware of. Sans could probably still win against Khatep, though, thanks to the whole fleeing-the-battle thing.

I’m pretty sure the opponent just moves on

This should still be enough.

 

[ARandomDude127]

How is Khatep even in this, tf?

Anyway, most of the characters here don't really stand a chance, unless their supporters have some arguments I'm not aware of. Sans could probably still win against Khatep, though, thanks to the whole fleeing-the-battle thing.

Cuphead gets annihilated as a supporter of his (yes I know it doesn’t say that on the verse’s page but I dunno how to make myself one, do I just edit my name there? Ion wanna get pulverized for vandalism.)

Hank COULD do sum, given he’s really good at dodging but this is Pre Apotheosis so no Tac Bar which would really help him out here, and it wouldn’t stop Sans from leaving.

All the others idk.

As for the first question, beats me bro Warhammer is like my greatest enemy rn

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

do I just edit my name there?

Yeah bro, you could just put your name on the page.

 

[ARandomDude127]

Yeah bro, you could just put your name on the page.

Yeah you GOTTA be joshing me

Sighh, alright gimme like 2 minutes

 

[ARandomDude127]

My names red ion think that’s good.

Gulp.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

My names red ion think that’s good.

Gulp.

That's normal. It's red because you're viewing it from your own account. Other people would see it as blue like the rest.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

I feel like most people here are confusing Sans's first turn with some kind of ultimate move, even though that's actually his indefinite turn. The first turn is... well, his first turn when you fight him. This is already on the profile and was accepted in previous CRT. Let me just quote the relevant part from the profile for convenience:

Sans is the only monster that actually starts the battle with his turn and making an unavoidable attack after Frisk spares him. As per his character, fighting is necessarily not in his favor. He can simply walked out of the fight and still resulting in him winning the battle. In the same way, he can forcefully end the fight by making the player leave the box.

And yes, this would still function in crossover matchups under SBA through Verse Equalization as it is a canon fundamental aspect of the verse. You can't just say, “well, it's a game mechanic so we can't say for sure”, because that's an old argument that has already been discussed to death. Even then, the profile already states:

Breaking the mechanics is implied to be based on knowledge rather than magic, as it can be utilized even if the settings lack magical properties. Most characters are unaware of the system's existence and therefore fight normally, while those with knowledge of it can exploit its rules and loopholes)

Which essentially means that, even within Undertale itself, characters generally fight normally. The reason they don't exploit the system is because they don't know it exists. The same logic applies to crossover matchups. The mechanics exist under Verse Equalization, but the opposing character doesn't know about them. Sans does.

I honestly don't see a more reasonable interpretation than Sans gaining an advantage through that awareness. It feels like @Arceus0x is deliberately ignoring that aspect of the argument for some reason:

I am saying that if Sans either ends the encounter or is attacked a pacifist encounter ending by him leaving then he could still be ended

you can 'flee' and then attack him again. The turn thing yes, he entraps you in the law manip, but that would be his ult.

I feel like this is gonna have to be something I'll need to address in a thread because winning in an encounter shouldn't count as winning the battle unless specified by SBA that it counts.

This kind of argument really bugs me.

 

[Mickey1940]

Not his first move, but okay, since the changes about his new winning condition is still recent.

But if you're wondering, his actual first move is... simply walked out of the battle. Yeah, he's that lazy.

I hate that this is true

 

[Rikimarox2]

Been a while since I played Undertale, what exactly are his win-conditions here? I know that in his first move, you are automatically attacked by his telekinesis shenanigans, iirc, would that just not allow Alice to amp or something?

Furthermore, the OP says that they have half a minute of prep time. Can't alice just... amp herself in that prep time, or is that not allowed?

Also I've heard stuff about Sans just leaving the fight and automatically winning because the system in undertale considers it a win? I'm confused here, wouldn't that just be a self-bfr rather than an auto win? Also I kind of feel like that just, ignores the whole purpose of a vsbattle thread lmao, since you aren't fighting or doing anything to the opponent, you're just fleeing. Can anyone tell me why that would take precedence over the SBA? Since Sans "winning" the battle by fleeing... didn't do anything to the opponent. You are not killing them, incap them, etc... you are just running away from a fight. Unless that somehow doesn't allow Alice to attack him again, but at that point, it'd be moreso an Incap rather than a full-on victory.

Also, any reason for why Sans would one shot? Did the soul mechanics change, since IIRC we assumed that it'll take like a second or so to actually kill someone with no soul resistance. I guess there were multiple CRTs for this?

Sorry if I'm asking too many questions, but I genuinely do not know how much stuff happened to Sans.

 

[ARandomDude127]

Also, any reason for why Sans would one shot? Did the soul mechanics change, since IIRC we assumed that it'll take like a second or so to actually kill someone with no soul resistance. I guess there were multiple CRTs for this?

Essentially folks with no Soul Resistance would be treated as having the same amount of HP has LVL 1 Frisk for Undertale folks, so he wouldn’t one shot but he’d kill her so quickly to the point where it’d basically be a oneshot especially due to his Karma stuff