The Multiverse and its Destiny...ARE MINE TO CONTROL! (Odin vs Xehanort)

[TheKingStrategist13]

Well, if the Probability Manipulation is activated via his Soul Manipulation, which seems to be the case from reading the GoW Magic page, then in what world does the Probability Manipulation properly activate if the Soul Manipulation won't work?

Though like was said before by Tornado, this is a admittedly moot point when Xehanort's Soul resistance is actually outdated

 

[Planck69]

So is the match just no longer valid until it does get updated or what do we do from here?

 

[Hypertornado099]

So is the match just no longer valid until it does get updated or what do we do from here?

Maybe, but OP could edit the rules and disable verse equalisation of souls and you could argue Zeus' soul manipulation doesn't work simply because Xehanort's soul doesn't function the same way GOW souls do

 

[Theglassman12]

So turn it into fun and games thread is what you're saying.

 

[Hypertornado099]

So turn it into fun and games thread is what you're saying.

The following are the assumptions to be made for battles in versus threads, if no alternative assumptions are specified by the thread creator. Assumptions alternative to these ones can be freely used, are equally legitimate, and threads using different assumptions can be added to profiles just like these ones can. Generally, it is preferable that the thread creator specify the assumptions he wants to use in the thread and adjust them in such a way that as fair a fight as possible can take place.

They can still be added to the profiles

 

[Theglassman12]

Where does it say you can just ignore what the abilities of the characters are that are a fundamental aspect of their powerset? Because that's not what's said in the SBA.

 

[KirbyFan03]

My take?

Each verse has different mechanics regarding certain things

GoW souls seem to be more complex as the soul itself is made from someone's luck

I think one has to resist both luck and soul manip in any degree to resist gow hax

 

[Hypertornado099]

Where does it say you can just ignore what the abilities of the characters are that are a fundamental aspect of their powerset? Because that's not what's said in the SBA.

Who said anything about ignoring the abilities of the character? Its just changing the rules of the matchup so that it isn't all the same as SBA anymore.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

My take?

Each verse has different mechanics regarding certain things

GoW souls seem to be more complex as the soul itself is made from someone's luck

I think one has to resist both luck and soul manip in any degree to resist gow hax

If we went along with this for a moment (though to be honest this feels inaccurate to how such a power should be treated), you would have to lend the same treatment to KH Darkness Manipulation, on account of how many things are inherently tied to the Heart in KH, with Darkness effecting the Heart inherently by nature. So for instance- Even if Odin resists the Info Manip and Concept Manip, the existence erasure and memory manip too, I don't see anything that outright say's he resists (Non-KH) Darkness Manip, Spatial Manip, Possession, Sleep Manip... Etc, etc, which means he would suddenly be liable to be affected by those things if the same holds true for the inverse.
Saying that the probability manipulation works on someone who is immune to the soul manipulation is essentially saying the Soul Manipulation works because the Probability Manip is unresisted, is it not? Since in GoW Probability is inherent a attribute connected to the Soul.
The logical conclusion then becomes, if Odin can't resist something as simple as Sleep Manipulation, then that opens him up for Xehanort to mess with his Information, Concept, Memories, Existence, etc, since it's the same situation. They're both hax's from the character that are inherently tied together by their respective in-verse mechanics.

Where does it say you can just ignore what the abilities of the characters are that are a fundamental aspect of their powerset? Because that's not what's said in the SBA.

The following are the assumptions to be made for battles in versus threads, if no alternative assumptions are specified by the thread creator. Assumptions alternative to these ones can be freely used, are equally legitimate, and threads using different assumptions can be added to profiles just like these ones can. Generally, it is preferable that the thread creator specify the assumptions he wants to use in the thread and adjust them in such a way that as fair a fight as possible can take place.

...

Verse equalization: Similar supernatural aspects of verses get equalized in a reasonable fashion. So a supernatural energy that almost everyone in a Verse has, which is necessary to fight the characters of said Verse, will be assumed to be the equivalent energy that the opponents use in their techniques so that a proper fight can happen.

Furthermore, attacks that require a special type of energy to be effective, like anti-magic requiring magic, will be assumed to work against the energies of different Verses, as long as they are somehow similar and the mechanics are somehow compatible with the known mechanics behind the energies from different Verses. For example, mind control resistance by being a capable mind user would also work against other Verses, but mind control resistance through a strong will would not necessarily work against mind control from other Verses. It is also important to note that characters won't lose or gain any abilities or resistances which they do or do not inherently possess. However, if an ability has a weakness, condition, caveat, or limitation, consistently shown throughout its use (such as not working on characters under a specific condition, like energy gap) or stated by a valid and uncontradicted statement, then it should be applicable after the equalization.

Equalization works highly on a case-by-case basis, so many relevant cases should be discussed in the versus thread itself.

As can be clearly observed here, Verse Equalization is A, subject to the OP's discretion on if it is to be applied or not, and B, a heavily case by case basis, where abilities that have a inherent condition (In this case, Probability manipulation being tied to the ability to manipulate the soul) should have those limitations be considered and applicable post equalization, as well as the fact that no character would gain or lose abilities or resistances from equalization.

I dunno about you, but it kinda looks like the rules are loose and free when it comes to things like verse equalization. So it should still be applicable regardless of if it's enabled or disabled, right?

 

[Theglassman12]

That's not how resistances works, prove that those abilities are something that can get by Odin's resistances on his page cause what you're saying is a complete NLF to assume Xehanort can just ignore Odin's resistances without any proof.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

That's not how resistances works, prove that those abilities are something that can get by Odin's resistances on his page cause what you're saying is a complete NLF to assume Xehanort can just ignore Odin's resistances without any proof.

If you carefully read what I said, you would see that it was in response to someone else making a very similar argument for Odin. It was to illustrate the absurdity of it. No, I don't actually think Xehanort can just make Odin go to sleep and use that to somehow bypass his resistances to Info Manip in order to use that on him as well, that is absurd and baseless.
But I apply the same logic inversely, if a character resists Soul Manipulation, there is 0 reason to believe Odin can use his Probability Manipulation when it is inherently reliant on the fact that GoW treats Probability as part of the Soul. One manipulation leads to the other. Cut off the first step of the chain entirely, the second step never activates.
Now, if Odin showed that he could effect Probability independent of a Soul, that would be one thing, but judging from the way the GoW magic page is worded, that doesn't seem likely to have ever happened.

Although yeah, once again, this whole point is moot in this particular matchup anyways, as brought up prior by other people, with Xehanort's Soul Manip being outdated and in need of a CRT.

 

[Pepsimanslover]

if a character resists Soul Manipulation, there is 0 reason to believe Odin can use his Probability Manipulation when it is inherently reliant on the fact that GoW treats Probability as part of the Soul. One manipulation leads to the other. Cut off the first step of the chain entirely, the second step never activates.
Now, if Odin showed that he could effect Probability independent of a Soul, that would be one thing, but judging from the way the GoW magic page is worded, that doesn't seem likely to have ever happened.

By this same logic, characters in (for example, Naruto, or really any verse with mundane soul resistance) would resist God of War’s Conceptual Manipulation, Information Manipulation, Probability Manipulation, Memory Manipulation because in the context of God of War, that's what souls are, and of course, this is flawed.

Furthermore, the assumption that everyone has agreed with this verse equalization is unfounded. God of War souls and KH's Hearts are fundamentally different to a laughable extent.

God of War souls are Soul (Form, Mind, Direction and luck) = Magic = Life-Force = chaos = Information Manipulation = Conceptua Manipulation.

KH Hearts are = Light = Darkness = Conceptual Manipulation = Information Manipulation.

These 2, only share 2 aspects. That is it. Two.

Furthermore, as I note in my first paragraph, having a resistance to Soul Manipulation naturally wouldn't give you resistance to another verse's Conceptual Manipulation just because their souls are Conceptual in their context, and naturally, neither would it give you resistance to Luck or really any other metaphysical aspect. Resistance to Conceptual Manipulation wouldn't give you resistance to Fate or Plot Manipulation just because another Verse's Conceptual Manipulation is synonymous with those aspects.

 

[ThatBoiRick]

By this same logic, characters in (for example, Naruto, or really any verse with mundane soul resistance) would resist God of War’s Conceptual Manipulation, Information Manipulation, Probability Manipulation, Memory Manipulation because in the context of God of War, that's what souls are, and of course, this is flawed.

No, but it gives you resistance to soul manipulation. The issue here is that this probability manipulation comes after the soul manipulation. Why would it ever get to that point if he has trouble accessing Xehanort’s soul?

Furthermore, the assumption that everyone has agreed with this verse equalization is unfounded. God of War souls and KH's Hearts are fundamentally different to a laughable extent.

God of War souls are Soul (Form, Mind, Direction and luck) = Magic = Life-Force = chaos = Information Manipulation = Conceptua Manipulation.

KH Hearts are = Light = Darkness = Conceptual Manipulation = Information Manipulation.

These 2, only share 2 aspects. That is it. Two.

Which is why there’s a demand to remove the verse equalization as it frankly makes little sense.

Furthermore, as I note in my first paragraph, having a resistance to Soul Manipulation naturally wouldn't give you resistance to another verse's Conceptual Manipulation just because their souls are Conceptual in their context, and naturally, neither would it give you resistance to Luck or really any other metaphysical aspect. Resistance to Conceptual Manipulation wouldn't give you resistance to Fate or Plot Manipulation just because another Verse's Conceptual Manipulation is synonymous with those aspects.

The issue here is that in order to manipulate Xehanort’s luck he would have to first get to his soul. We’re not saying Xehanort doesn’t get luck maniped we’re saying it’s not gonna get to that point because Odin wouldn’t get to Xehanort’s soul. Unless there’s an argument that Odin can manipulate luck without access to the soul.

 

[Pepsimanslover]

No, but it gives you resistance to soul manipulation. The issue here is that this probability manipulation comes after the soul manipulation. Why would it ever get to that point if he has trouble accessing Xehanort’s soul?

A soul is made of Luck along other aspects. It doesn't come "after", it's a part of it. And since as you note later that it does not make sense to equalize them, I assume you agree that resistance to Soul Manipulation wouldn't give you resistance to another's verse entirely different context of Luck and Mind Manipulation.

Which is why there’s a demand to remove the verse equalization as it frankly makes little sense.

The opposite was being demanded from Bob.

The issue here is that in order to manipulate Xehanort’s luck he would have to first get to his soul. We’re not saying Xehanort doesn’t get luck maniped we’re saying it’s not gonna get to that point because Odin wouldn’t get to Xehanort’s soul. Unless there’s an argument that Odin can manipulate luck without access to the soul.

Xeno's soul (from what I've glanced in the page at least) is not made of luck, or is even conceptual/informational. Equaling these two as the same is inherently faulty, and assuming that Odin wouldn't just destroy his luck, something he very clearly does NOT resist, because of mundane soul resistance is faulty.

Anyway, I'm tired of this already and it's late. I'm done with, really whatever this thread became.

 

[Hypertornado099]

@Eseseso In case you don't wanna read the long messages that have been posted,

Odin has soul and probability manipulation, which is too strong for Xehanort to resist. Probability Manipulation alone wouldn't make it. a stomp, but layered soul manipulation would. Changing the rules a little to not equalize souls would make the matchup fair, because Odin's soul and probability manipulation wouldn't work on Xehanort anymore. Alternatively, you could swap Xehanort with his Heartless, since he doesn't have a soul

 

[King_of_nothing13]

Organization XIII when they see how Odin makes Ravens through convincing humans to hang their own children so that Odin can enslave their souls: I know we're evil but WTF.

 

[Eseseso]

Keep in mind Odin has done this to over a hundred children at absolute minimum, and due to him corrupting their souls they can't enter the afterlife even when they die.