Acheron's Acausality and Stuff (NEED STAFF VOTES PLEASE)

[Nighting4l33yes]

naurr i cant quoteeee ****.

the quote compares their existences to shadows of IX it doesnt mean that they are shadows of IX they are just similar. i believe nova even talked abt this on the last crt

Pardon?

"The places where the space-time curvature are most extreme are suspected to be locations cast in the vast shadow of the Aeon of Nihility."

what is compared with what? it literally tells you that black holes are involved with nihility aka the shadows.

so you're ok wiht nuking 2-A? making real space 2-C? fine by me

again, no correlation. nothing of what i am saying here is opposing MWI in any capacity. if anything, Acheron herself straight up says that the Acheron we saw while entering Penacony was a different her.

Fuli is a special case, Terminus doesnt even have acausality

fuli is not a special case. it's textbook acausality type 1.

and terminus should also have acausality. surprise, profiles aren't always accurate nor complete.

why are you even arguing it at all then?

a more simple deduction is that her fate isnt bound to the planet so she wouldnt have an acausal existence if the planet was destroyed because her existence is not bound to the planet

but her past is bound to the planet's timeline and history. if the moment within the timeline in which she was born is gone, how tf would she exist?

because he doesnt like IX... again thats the entire point of lord ravangers, they oppose their previous aeon

? yes??? but he is still using nihility's power??? same way irontomb used erudition? same way all of them are? yk... dual pathstriders? its very simple rly. ix = shadows of ix = black holes. white holes = reformed black holes.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

keep in mind branching itself is already a form of future alteration relative to a given continuity. also if you wanna go down the route of "changes in the past cant affect ANYTHING in the future" then we gotta give everyone type 2 or 4 or something because, as you support, they are immune to changes in the past and only exist in the present bc like this the ENTIRE cosmology ends up having an irregular acausal operational framework.

 

[Mbpoops]

let me tackle this stuff now since it seems i have to

Elio's Script
In this part, we'll be reviewing Elio's script and the concept of future timelines.

Acheron, because as an acausal paradox, does not appear in the forseeable future.

notice how theres no scans

Elio who supposedly sees all timelines and possibilities has no trace of her anywhere.

we went over this in the last crt

Because Acheron isn't supposed to exist. I think the choice of words is obvious here. They are not refering to her Emanator status that Emanators of Nihility aren't possible, as it has been discussed before, but at her very existence.

no nihility emanator is supposed to exist because IX doesnt gaze anyone. thats the entire point. the second half of this is complete headcanon (notice how theres no scans)

From the HSR Wiki which is well-curated and trustworthy:

This is basically a repeat of the "Generals =/= Emanators" situation again and the last 2 patches have proven this to not be the case. There's no reason to think this situation is any different.

kinda confused here. are you saying generals =/= emanators? that got debunked all generals are emenators. if you're comparing self annhiliators to the general argument... double emanator zephyro

Clearly, it is possible. Not everyone believes it to be so however.

huh

In the dialogue between Dan Heng and Boothill where they discuss the nature of Emanators of Nihility, it is evident that Dan Heng does not believe those exist,

Dan Heng: IX never gives anyone so much as a first glance, and that's perfectly normal. What reason would THEY have to bequeath strength unto mortals?

if you read the bolded part you can understand why he thinks this.

btw for anyone unknowledgeable on the verse, Emanators are created when Aeons gaze upon people who follow their path farther than normal pathstriders.

when it comes to Boothill, that's not the case. He seems open to the idea

?????

and in his previous dialogue with that cryptic line, he seems to be talking about the absence of her past.

because noboddy knows... wow.. i guess pompom has acausality because no one knows his past.

Of course, it wouldn't be absurd to assume that Boothill could also be talking about her Emanator status as later in his dialogue with Dan Heng, he also seems cautious of assuming it.

Moreover, Acheron’s abnormal relationship with Elio’s scripts is not treated as an isolated inconsistency, but as part of a broader pattern where deterministic future observation begins to fail in the presence of higher acausal or causality-disrupting phenomena.

ah yes because we're comparing something that can only see limited possibilities to someone who can see infinite possibilities.

Originally in Penacony and even later in the 3.8 recton, the narrative repeatedly emphasizes that Acheron either cannot be properly accounted for within the script or exists outside its normal predictive ability. Importantly, one of the only other major situations where the script similarly failed to fully predict or stabilize outcomes occurred during the conflict surrounding Irontomb, where multiple Aeons and cosmic forces intersected simultaneously, including Fuli, whose very nature as the Aeon of Remembrance is tied to non-linear existence and acausal memory structures. Specifically as we see here, there's only 2 predicted outcomes. The erasure of Amphoreus or the death of the Universe. Neither of those happened because of Fuli's involvement.

well the universe did end we see that happen. i dont think the script failed because kafka says "dont worry" because elio has already seen what will happen

also the last scan im not sure what this is supposed to prove, why is ashveil someone knowledgeable about elio? someone who no one knows a thing about aside from the stellaron hunters?

Instead a third outcome, not perceived by Elio,

"the views of the road ahead are already reflected in those eyes"

was achieved and resulted in Irontomb's defeat and Amphoreus' preservation through Cyrene's power as Fuli. The parallel matters because both cases involve entities fundamentally disconnected from ordinary causal progression.

we're just spamming buzz words

In Acheron’s case specifically, her origin and history were consumed by Nihility itself, severing the continuity between her existence and the past that should logically sustain it.

no scans

As a result, she persists as a contradiction to normal causality: someone whose world, history, and future have been erased, yet who continues to exist and act within the present regardless.

headcanon + no scans

There's also another thing. In the very distant future, Silver Wolf Lv.999's story explicitly revolves around Device IX even her confrontation with Polka Kakamond. Despite this, Acheron is absent from the projected sequence entirely despite her mentioning twice in Penacony that her next mission is to reach Device IX.

why does she need to be here..? the scan you sent doesnt even specify her next destination has Device IX because no one knows where it is. so again why does she need to be here?

There's 2 scenarios here. 1) She never finds Device IX. 2) Acheron is simply missing from the future. I am betting more towards the second considering the mountain of evidence suggesting that her future cannot be discerned due to her existence in her own causal chain being broken.

why is the second more likely..? theres no mountain of evidence im sorry

 

[Mbpoops]

keep in mind branching itself is already a form of future alteration relative to a given continuity. also if you wanna go down the route of "changes in the past cant affect ANYTHING in the future" then we gotta give everyone type 2 or 4 or something because, as you support, they are immune to changes in the past and only exist in the present bc like this the ENTIRE cosmology ends up having an irregular acausal operational framework.

so you dont even know how acausality works because like i have said a thousand times thats NOT type 2 or 4

 

[Mbpoops]

i mean you can request to make a staff thread to give all MWI type 1 acausality though i doubt it would pass

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

I am sorry but adding random question marks or replying with the equivalent of "Nuh uh" is not a counterargument. I will reply to these only this time and not again if there's no actual evidence other than your vibes.

notice how theres no scans

Yes. There aren't because that is the point I am trying to prove. Lol.

we went over this in the last crt

We did but now as you can see I added more evidence and explained that the idea presented in the last CRT was incomplete and wrong.

no nihility emanator is supposed to exist because IX doesnt gaze anyone. thats the entire point. the second half of this is complete headcanon (notice how theres no scans)

kinda confused here. are you saying generals =/= emanators? that got debunked all generals are emenators. if you're comparing self annhiliators to the general argument... double emanator zephyro

Please notice the quotation marks. It CLEARLY shows that these are the words of THOSE that believe Generals weren't Emanators. The wiki, had already categorized them as Emanators and a part of the community did as well because of the original, Chinese text that categorized both Emanators and some Self-Annihilators as Emanators.

if you read the bolded part you can understand why he thinks this.

btw for anyone unknowledgeable on the verse, Emanators are created when Aeons gaze upon people who follow their path farther than normal pathstriders.

Just random things here. Instead of reading the thread bit by bit before you get to the part where it connects, read it all at once and then make your point. The point I am making there is that Dan Heng doesn't have all sorts of information unlike Geniuses such as Dr Primitive that have done extensive research on Self-Annihilators and Paths.

because noboddy knows... wow.. i guess pompom has acausality because no one knows his past.

Absence as in a destroyed timeline and history.

ah yes because we're comparing something that can only see limited possibilities to someone who can see infinite possibilities.

This is the point. The Omniscia already has high precog abilities on its own. Elio who is an even further cry cannot predict neither Aeons nor Acheron.

well the universe did end we see that happen. i dont think the script failed because kafka says "dont worry" because elio has already seen what will happen

also the last scan im not sure what this is supposed to prove, why is ashveil someone knowledgeable about elio? someone who no one knows a thing about aside from the stellaron hunters?

For starters, this trailer takes place before the AE even gets to Amphoreus as you can hear Silver Wolf say "Let's meet them after Penacony wraps up" meaning they are still there. Elio's words were SPECIFICALLY TALKING about them even GETTING THERE and not getting caught up in the other worlds and entangled with the other Ravagers. It was not a third outcome that Elio predicted.

I am not aware how Ashveil knows Elio but he clearly does. Why are you asking me this? Ask the writers?

no scans

headcanon + no scans

The scans are throughout the thread.

why does she need to be here..? the scan you sent doesnt even specify her next destination has Device IX because no one knows where it is. so again why does she need to be here?

Acheron knows it exists. And she knows it exists beyond the Horizon of Existence and beyond the known universe. This dialogue is literally saying where her next destination is. The point is that she's absent from it in the future. I am aware it's speculative which is why the foundation is the rest of the evidence connecting it.

so you dont even know how acausality works because like i have said a thousand times thats NOT type 2 or 4

Sure, I don't.

i mean you can request to make a staff thread to give all MWI type 1 acausality though i doubt it would pass

You can't be serious...

 

[Mbpoops]

Misconceptions and common arguments

1) A point that was raised in the previous thread was this: "There's remnants of Izumo such as scrolls, theories and observations"

The thing is, the remains of its destruction are not preserved historical records belonging to an intact timeline, but disconnected remnants that no longer possess a functioning causal origin within the universe’s history.

scans..? because you literally contradict yourself by showing these scrolls and observations

This is why the surviving manuscripts and traces surrounding Izumo are consistently treated as fragmentary, uncertain, and unrecoverable rather than as evidence of a normally preserved past of a civilization. Researchers, recordkeepers and whoever else is investigating that phenomenon are unable to reconstruct a coherent historical continuity from them as the world itself vanished from astral history, and even Remembrance failed to properly preserve its existence.

because they dont have all of the history. thats it. the reason why its fragmentary is because its not the full history only the fragments. they cant recover the full history because they cant find the other scrolls or other means of telling the history. you wouldnt base the entire history of egypt off some scrolls would you? of course those events still happened they just dont know the full history, thus those scrolls are only parts of the history.

In other words, these remnants behave less like preserved history and more like causally disconnected leftovers whose original continuity has been left severed.

..? define causally..

This interpretation is consistent with Nihility’s established properties. If Acheron’s power can sever cause and effect and erase things “as if they never existed,” then the surviving fragments do not contradict the erasure. They can instead be understood as isolated residues that just survived. However, after the destruction of the larger causal structure that originally gave them context, continuity, and historical traceability, they are now stranded, cut from the causal chain of Izumo's existence and their time of creation with no way to pin-point their origin in the timeline.

can we stop spamming buzzwords. you keel saying causal this causal that define causal.

anyway, the scrolls arent bound to the planet so they can exist without the planet existing. simple as that. it has nothing to do with causality its just the planet being destroyed. also can you explain what a causal chain is?

Last but not least, the descriptions of Planar Ornaments are narrated through an omniscient narrator outside of the game's setting.

why does this matter?

The knowledge "inscribed" on them is not known to anyone else in-universe.

well hes reading information they have access to. someone had to record this information thats why its in the simulated universe

There is no author nor source which in EVERY piece of text there always is one if it's from a source within the setting. That information is just spoonfed to us so we can understand the lore better. It doesn't demonstrate the knowledge of the characters on the planet and its culture.

its still information that they have access to. doesnt matter who read it, it exists in-verse and thus they have access to the information

2) A second point raised was this: "Zephyo, being a Self-Annihilator was predicted by Elio's script".

As I've already demonstrated, it's not the process of Self-Annihilation that made Acheron, or any Self-Annihilator for that matter, acausal. It was her striking the two worlds with the power of Nihility and "Naught".

scans? because all she did was cut an IX shadow which destroyed her planet if anything its just causality manip but genuienly nothing about this points to acausality

3) A third point raised was that: "The Stellaron Hunters are not given the full scripts"

The claim that the Hunters are not given their full scripts, sometimes, is true.

However, the scene is crucial piece of information about Acheron's existence and nature and it is repeated TWICE. Both in the original patch and in the recton patch a whole year later.

For starters, there is no evidence that Firefly lacked the full script during that scene. The Stellaron Hunters are frequently shown receiving scripts that contain even extremely specific details and outcomes.

you do know this script isnt real right?

Claiming that Firefly simply did not have the complete information at that moment is therefore speculative and undermines the narrative purpose of the scene itself. The entire sequence is structured around gradually unveiling Acheron’s true nature as a Self-Annihilator, especially since she had initially been framed as an ominous and enigmatic, threatening figure throughout Penacony’s story.

so they're hyping up being an emanator... firefly not having acheron in her given script can do this as well

Acheron’s relationship with Elio’s scripts is repeatedly framed as abnormal.

scans?

Elio’s foresight functions through branching futures, Finality's Omens and causal progression (very similarly to Herta's Simulated Universe which is reverse engineering the past and the divination techniques the Xianzhou uses) yet Acheron is consistently treated as an anomaly within that structure. In the quest "The Dream Split in Two", even a year after Penacony’s original release, the narrative revisits the fact that she does not properly appear within the scripted future in the same way other individuals do.

all this is is firefly being surprised shes not in the script which could mean 2 things

1. elio didnt give her that part of the script (likely outcome)

2. she doesnt appear in the script

you'd need more proof shes completely immune to elio's scripts because all the evidence just points to elio not giving her the full script

Specifically, Firefly says again:



Here, Firefly is surprised at two things. Acheron being an Emanator and being absent from the script. More accurately, Firefly is not particularly surprised that Emanators of the Nihility exist. She is simply stunned by the presence of one being there without warning. She seems aware of what her powers can do and is hellbent on getting the Trailblazer away from Nihility's range. Her familiarity with an Emanator of Nihility's powers should prove that there's precedent when it comes to their existence acting as further proof that Acheron is not the first one to be one making it more likely that Firefly is simply stunned Acheron was not mentioned in the script considering the risk she poses.

so other emanators appear in the script. this just means its more likely elio didnt give her that information which is why shes suprised she wasnt mentioned in the script because she knows how dangerous nihility emanators are

The description of the quest when controlling Firefly is this further supporting the she knows the risks an Emanator such as her would pose.

same as above

Additionally, Dahlia doesn't seem too surprised of Acheron's Emanatorship status either clearly talking as if she knows about them. Even more so, Dahlia had a script too in which Acheron wasn't mentioned either.

? duke archives is elio now..? this just means she figured out acheron was an emanator when she killed duke archives

The Hunters were both worried by the effects mere exposure to Nihility (this being the Zero-Point mission as in the highest priority) and Destruction would cause before the TB was ready.

acheron goes in detail why you should stay far away from nihility. the stellaron hunters should have this information as well knowing how much they know about everything else, even nihility emanators

Surely, if Acheron could've interfered with the plan even without intending it as Nihility's effect is that powerful and the TB had to be guided out of the Horizon, the Hunters would've tried to avoid meeting with her especially since Firefly clearly is not fully aware of Acheron's intentions.

this scan is retconned and contradicted by your previous scans. why would firefly be asking who she is here but we know the dahlia told her who she was prior to this?

(The Hunters don't just leave things to fate. Even with Irontomb's disaster, Kafka appeared in our minds to make sure we make the right decision.

scan? because this is just headcanon they literally left the entire amphoreus arc up to a chance we made the right decision

Even now in Planarcadia, Silver Wolf appeared again to save us despite her having pretty much no script)

didnt you say earlier she had a script? which one is it?

The Stellaron Hunters are frequently shown receiving scripts that contain even extremely specific details and outcomes.

Even more so, Firefly seems a bit inconsistent when it comes to her script. To Acheron she revealed that she had only one line yet to the Trailblazer and Dahlia she also mentions the three deaths. Even more so, here she mentions the script having clues about the meme, "Death". Surprisingly she also reveals that the script said she'd confront the Express as SAM. It's more likely that her script is longer and that she's just not keen on sharing its details wtith anyone except for herself.

so why are we taking acheron not showing up in firefly's script if it isnt even consistant?

Essentially, this proves that Acheron is missing from Elio's scripts and that she cannot be detected by him.

no it doesnt

 

[Mbpoops]

I am sorry but adding random question marks or replying with the equivalent of "Nuh uh" is not a counterargument. I will reply to these only this time and not again if there's no actual evidence other than your vibes.

k

Yes. There aren't because that is the point I am trying to prove. Lol.

and theres no scans to back it up

We did but now as you can see I added more evidence and explained that the idea presented in the last CRT was incomplete and wrong.

well it wasnt incomplete lol nor was it wrong if the majority seemed to agree, some being hsr supporters

Please notice the quotation marks. It CLEARLY shows that these are the words of THOSE that believe Generals weren't Emanators. The wiki, had already categorized them as Emanators and a part of the community did as well because of the original, Chinese text that categorized both Emanators and some Self-Annihilators as Emanators.

so are they emanators or not? im fine with it either way i was just confused on what you were saying

Just random things here. Instead of reading the thread bit by bit before you get to the part where it connects, read it all at once and then make your point.

thats a fair point ill work on that

The point I am making there is that Dan Heng doesn't have all sorts of information unlike Geniuses such as Dr Primitive that have done extensive research on Self-Annihilators and Paths.

Absence as in a destroyed timeline and history.

well shes clearly apart of the timeline as seen by the last thread and they have traces of her planet's history so she has a history, they just dont know anything about it

This is the point. The Omniscia already has high precog abilities on its own. Elio who is an even further cry cannot predict neither Aeons nor Acheron.

this was disproven in the last thread

For starters, this trailer takes place before the AE even gets to Amphoreus as you can hear Silver Wolf say "Let's meet them after Penacony wraps up" meaning they are still there. Elio's words were SPECIFICALLY TALKING about them even GETTING THERE and not getting caught up in the other worlds and entangled with the other Ravagers. It was not a third outcome that Elio predicted.

For starters, we see firefly in the pod so obviously this is after penacony

secondly, silver wolf asks to lend them a hand in amphoreus

thirdly, we literally go back to penacony because of the dahlia. this is implied by silver wolf saying "the rest is up to her now" aka the Dahlia (CASTORICE FINISH HER PROFILE) this is also confirmed by silverwolf later in the patch that the dahlia CANNOT tell us what actually happened or we will die

fourthly, them getting there was a one way trip. they only encounter the other lord ravangers if they specifically didnt go to amphoreus. we had choices

I am not aware how Ashveil knows Elio but he clearly does. Why are you asking me this? Ask the writers?

because you provided the scan. ashveil knows nothing about elio so anything he says about elio should be taken with a grain of salt

The scans are throughout the thread.

they werent helpful

Acheron knows it exists. And she knows it exists beyond the Horizon of Existence and beyond the known universe. This dialogue is literally saying where her next destination is. The point is that she's absent from it in the future. I am aware it's speculative which is why the foundation is the rest of the evidence connecting it.

the foundation isnt really stable, she deadass coulda just not have found it. its a more likely outcome than assuming "she doesnt show up because shes acausual x infinity" or smthn

Sure, I don't.

You can't be serious...

im very serious.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

scans..? because you literally contradict yourself by showing these scrolls and observations

I am not contradicting anything. I am giving the FULL picture as is without attempting to bury evidence. I am then explaining how the existence of those fragments do not contradict the existence of the causal chain being broken.

because they dont have all of the history. thats it. the reason why its fragmentary is because its not the full history only the fragments. they cant recover the full history because they cant find the other scrolls or other means of telling the history. you wouldnt base the entire history of egypt off some scrolls would you? of course those events still happened they just dont know the full history, thus those scrolls are only parts of the history.

The Egypt analogy does not really apply because Egypt exists within a very ordinary historical continuity where the missing information is assumed to still belong to an intact causal past. Izumo on the other hand is portrayed as a civilization whose continuity itself has been severed through Nihility to the point that even Remembrance which can preserve even erased timelines fails to properly retain it. Remembrance, as you well know, is an acausal concept not bound to anything and not even Irontomb managed to destroy it. Neither locally nor universally.

can we stop spamming buzzwords. you keel saying causal this causal that define causal.

anyway, the scrolls arent bound to the planet so they can exist without the planet existing. simple as that. it has nothing to do with causality its just the planet being destroyed. also can you explain what a causal chain is?

Causal.

A causal chain is what I told you in your thread.

Point A = Tree exists.
Point B = Apple grows from tree.

That's a simple chain. If the Tree is erased from the timeline, the apple should stop existing.

That still misses the actual point being argued.

Not claiming the scrolls themselves must disappear simply because the planet was destroyed.. The argument is about the abnormal loss of historical continuity and Remembrance associated with Izumo, not just “the planet exploded.”

If this were only ordinary destruction, then Izumo would simply become another dead world with surviving artifacts and recoverable history. But the narrative repeatedly emphasizes that something else happened. The scrolls matter because they are isolated remnants existing without the broader continuity that should normally contextualize them. They survive, but the world they originated from has effectively fallen out of normal historical continuity. That is why the fragments are treated as eerie remnants of something no longer properly retained by the universe rather than ordinary archaeological evidence.

why does this matter?

I explain the reasons already. Read please.

well hes reading information they have access to. someone had to record this information thats why its in the simulated universe

It's a meta-textual summary provided for the player’s understanding. That's all.

scans? because all she did was cut an IX shadow which destroyed her planet if anything its just causality manip but genuienly nothing about this points to acausality

Yes. It's causality manipulation. To the planet. And herself as the planet carried her history in the past, which was erased.

you do know this script isnt real right?

That's not what Silver Wolf is saying...? She is just saying the script doesn't have anything to do with the Arcadia and if anything, it's so detailed that she knew the 24 seconds that passed meant that someone was messing with her.

all this is is firefly being surprised shes not in the script which could mean 2 things

1. elio didnt give her that part of the script (likely outcome)

2. she doesnt appear in the script

you'd need more proof shes completely immune to elio's scripts because all the evidence just points to elio not giving her the full script

No it doesn't. I explained that she doesn't appear in Dahlia's either. I also won't bother with the other replies regarding this because there's no point going in circles about this. You don't have actual arguments other than "They didn't get the full script" which is not based on anything.

this scan is retconned and contradicted by your previous scans. why would firefly be asking who she is here but we know the dahlia told her who she was prior to this?

She knew who she was. Not what her intentions were. Which is why she is panicking in their first encounter.

scan? because this is just headcanon they literally left the entire amphoreus arc up to a chance we made the right decision

Not really. Kafka appeared in TB's thoughts to direct him to the right decision when the crucial moment of "frozen universe vs ampho gone" choice.

didnt you say earlier she had a script? which one is it?

Are you alright? Kafka has a script. Not Silver Wolf.

so why are we taking acheron not showing up in firefly's script if it isnt even consistant?

Because that is the only consistency found in it.

and theres no scans to back it up

There are. And it's what I've linked in the beginning of the thread.

well it wasnt incomplete lol nor was it wrong if the majority seemed to agree, some being hsr supporters

The dispute was over Type 2. Not Type 4.

so are they emanators or not? im fine with it either way i was just confused on what you were saying

Some are. Not all.

well shes clearly apart of the timeline as seen by the last thread and they have traces of her planet's history so she has a history, they just dont know anything about it

Yes she is part of the timeline because of her acausal existence that allows her even though her past in the timeline is gone.

Existence of fragments ≠ intact causal continuity

For starters, we see firefly in the pod so obviously this is after penacony

secondly, silver wolf asks to lend them a hand in amphoreus

thirdly, we literally go back to penacony because of the dahlia. this is implied by silver wolf saying "the rest is up to her now" aka the Dahlia (CASTORICE FINISH HER PROFILE) this is also confirmed by silverwolf later in the patch that the dahlia CANNOT tell us what actually happened or we will die

fourthly, them getting there was a one way trip. they only encounter the other lord ravangers if they specifically didnt go to amphoreus. we had choices

Firefly was already in a pod to enter Penacony... Either she's recovering from the trip there or she's still in Penacony.

Yes. She asks to help them in the future. Where is the problem here?

We don't LITERALLY go back to Penacony. Dahlia appears in the Express and just explains all that stuff to us. She explicitly mentions that she guided us THROUGH OUR MEMORIES in order to remember the whole thing. We didn't go back to Penacony.

Yes this happens as the Express was ready to set off to Amphoreus while still being in Penacony before landing on it. The fact that they use "will", "leads" etc instead of "would" means that it's still an event underway.

because you provided the scan. ashveil knows nothing about elio so anything he says about elio should be taken with a grain of salt

The point was that the narative that Elio can't predict the Aeons is a repeated occurence mentioned throughout the game. Multiple times.

they werent helpful

I am sorry.

the foundation isnt really stable, she deadass coulda just not have found it. its a more likely outcome than assuming "she doesnt show up because shes acausual x infinity" or smthn

I am aware that it's not the strongest piece of the argument which is why it's only secondary to the other main arguments surrounding the script.

im very serious.

Okay, you can make the thread.

 

[Mbpoops]

I am not contradicting anything. I am giving the FULL picture as is without attempting to bury evidence. I am then explaining how the existence of those fragments do not contradict the existence of the causal chain being broken.

you do contradict yourself

The thing is, the remains of its destruction are not preserved historical records belonging to an intact timeline, but disconnected remnants that no longer possess a functioning causal origin within the universe’s history

they were able to connect them to izumo so they know of its origin the fact these scrolls still exist proves that Izumo wasnt erased from the timeline

The Egypt analogy does not really apply because Egypt exists within a very ordinary historical continuity where the missing information is assumed to still belong to an intact causal past. Izumo on the other hand is portrayed as a civilization whose continuity itself has been severed through Nihility to the point that even Remembrance which can preserve even erased timelines fails to properly retain it. Remembrance, as you well know, is an

or.. hear me out.. its just flowery language for destroyed? im actually starting to question this whole history erasure thing. i mean EE is fine and casuality manip

also is there a scan the remembrance can preserve erased timelines? i havent seen one but if there is send cause id like to see it

acausal concept

...

not bound to anything and

path space in question

not even Irontomb managed to destroy it. Neither locally nor universally.

irontomb is SPECIFICALLY a Nous killer. why would he target remembrance if hes programed to target erudition?

Causal.

A causal chain is what I told you in your thread.

Point A = Tree exists.
Point B = Apple grows from tree.

That's a simple chain. If the Tree is erased from the timeline, the apple should stop existing.

That still misses the actual point being argued.

Not claiming the scrolls themselves must disappear simply because the planet was destroyed.. The argument is about the abnormal loss of historical continuity and Remembrance associated with Izumo, not just “the planet exploded.”

so is there any history erasure at all? i mean the scrolls still exist, acheron still exists, they know about it's history, the only issue is they dont know what happened to it because IX is a bum and wont say anything

If this were only ordinary destruction, then Izumo would simply become another dead world with surviving artifacts and recoverable history.

but they do know of it's history. you even have the scans of it in your OP

1) A point that was raised in the previous thread was this: "There's remnants of Izumo such as scrolls, theories and observations"

But the narrative repeatedly emphasizes that something else happened.

an abnormal, abrupt end to a random planet. it was erased from existence. yea id question that too

The scrolls matter because they are isolated remnants existing without the broader continuity that should normally contextualize them. They survive, but the world they originated from has effectively fallen out of normal historical continuity. That is why the fragments are treated as eerie remnants of something no longer properly retained by the universe rather than ordinary archaeological evidence.

so is there even history erasure??????

I explain the reasons already. Read please.

It's a meta-textual summary provided for the player’s understanding. That's all.

but these do exist in verse and someone has this information. doesnt matter whos reading it, its canon.

Yes. It's causality manipulation. To the planet. And herself as the planet carried her history in the past, which was erased.

im highly doubting history erasure even exists anymore but thanks for agreeing its just causality manip

That's not what Silver Wolf is saying...? She is just saying the script doesn't have anything to do with the Arcadia and if anything, it's so detailed that she knew the 24 seconds that passed meant that someone was messing with her.

so if the script had nothing to do with planarcadia then its a fake script. she doesnt even have a script herself in planarcadia

No it doesn't. I explained that she doesn't appear in Dahlia's either.

duke inferno is Elio..? dahlia doesnt have a script

I also won't bother with the other replies regarding this because there's no point going in circles about this. You don't have actual arguments other than "They didn't get the full script" which is not based on anything.

because none of your arguments have refuted this. you cant prove elio actually gave them the full script.

She knew who she was. Not what her intentions were. Which is why she is panicking in their first encounter.

and maybe she was surprised because elio didnt include her in the script?

Not really. Kafka appeared in TB's thoughts to direct him to the right decision when the crucial moment of "frozen universe vs ampho gone" choice.

didnt even remember this scene exists lol

also it confirms elio precogged the entirety of amphoreus

Are you alright? Kafka has a script. Not Silver Wolf.

so... then she gave him a fake script.

Because that is the only consistency found in it.

clearly not

There are. And it's what I've linked in the beginning of the thread.

how is anyone supposed to know that? and which scans?

The dispute was over Type 2. Not Type 4.

same arguments apply

Some are. Not all.

eh guess they'll need to confirm who is or isnt alr

Yes she is part of the timeline because of her acausal existence that allows her even though her past in the timeline is gone.

or maybe shes apart of the timeline because she exists? it doesnt have to be acausal

Existence of fragments ≠ intact causal continuity

Existence of fragments = intact history.

also are you implying acheron slashed izumo in the past? i wanna see proof for that coulda been real helpful against sunday

Firefly was already in a pod to enter Penacony... Either she's recovering from the trip there or she's still in Penacony.

Yes. She asks to help them in the future. Where is the problem here?

bruh literally saying they're going in the right direction facing irontomb

We don't LITERALLY go back to Penacony. Dahlia appears in the Express and just explains all that stuff to us. She explicitly mentions that she guided us THROUGH OUR MEMORIES in order to remember the whole thing. We didn't go back to Penacony.

Yes this happens as the Express was ready to set off to Amphoreus while still being in Penacony before landing on it. The fact that they use "will", "leads" etc instead of "would" means that it's still an event underway.

?

we literally have a choice to go to each of the planets BEFORE taking off which we choose amphoreus they are explaining what will happen if we had gone to those other planets

"will" "leads" and "would" just explains what will happen if we had gone down those paths but we didnt

The point was that the narative that Elio can't predict the Aeons is a repeated occurence mentioned throughout the game. Multiple times.

aeons in an acheron acausality thread

I am sorry.

its oke

I am aware that it's not the strongest piece of the argument which is why it's only secondary to the other main arguments surrounding the script.

this one wasnt that sound either IMO

Okay, you can make the thread.

im arguing against it why would i do ts

anyway i slep now

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Last response to you specifically. No point in arguing if you're not willing to understand. Imma kiss your forehead and let you go. This ain't going nowhere.

they were able to connect them to izumo so they know of its origin the fact these scrolls still exist proves that Izumo wasnt erased from the timeline

The fragments found were historical scrolls. They didn't uncover that information by venturing into its ruins.

also is there a scan the remembrance can preserve erased timelines? i havent seen one but if there is send cause id like to see it

Elegy.

irontomb is SPECIFICALLY a Nous killer. why would he target remembrance if hes programed to target erudition?

I am talking about memoria. Not the path of remembrance.

so is there any history erasure at all? i mean the scrolls still exist, acheron still exists, they know about it's history, the only issue is they dont know what happened to it because IX is a bum and wont say anything

Yes Acheron exists because she's acausal. And the fragments simply survived the ordeal as well.

but they do know of it's history. you even have the scans of it in your OP

They only know what was on the scrolls which can't be traced back to anything nor anyone because it's gone from the timeline and the causal framework.

duke inferno is Elio..? dahlia doesnt have a script

She does I linked scans.

so if the script had nothing to do with planarcadia then its a fake script. she doesnt even have a script herself in planarcadia

The scripts don't need to involve the AE. Silver Wolf specifically says that Kafkas script is real and she right now is in Penacony. The Ravager just discovered it and tried to use it against her. Idk what ur saying. Frankly, your only defense against anything script related is that "they don't have the full script" which is pure speculation not supported by anything in this situation. I am not responding to those any more.

Existence of fragments = intact history.

also are you implying acheron slashed izumo in the past? i wanna see proof for that coulda been real helpful against sunday

I am implying that her blade can sever cause and effect. She severed this concept existing on Izumo.

bruh literally saying they're going in the right direction facing irontomb

Yes that was when Penacony ended and Black Swan convinced them to go there. Not after they arrived. We spent more time on Penacony for the Grail and for Fugue, for Sunday and so on. Black Swan convincing them happened very early and they voted for it immediately after dealing with the EnaDay crisis.

The video you linked doesn't prove anything. This also happened in the memories. It's called a recton.

aeons in an acheron acausality thread

Yes because both Fuli and Terminus are acausal like Acheron and Elio can't predict any of them. Where do you fail to see the connection?

I asked if you had actual evidence and you're bringing up things already tackled by the first post. You have provided no scans, no strong arguments or anything. Your "strongest" argument and the one you keep emphasizing is the existence of the fragments which are scrolls that simply survived the catastrophy. We have verbatim the game telling us that the planets which were once indexed in astral maps carried by people disappeared all of the sudden with the only way of them being remotely aware that it could've existed is because of some scrolls that account for its history. Mind you lots of people also believe its a fairytale which means it also disappeared as information and knowledge from their minds that it was a real place. You also have scans again VERBATIM saying the history of Izumo was severed in one cut. It's past and future gone and saying you dont believe its history EE after all.At this point, you are just egoing.

Your other argument on scripts is "They don't have the full scripts". No foundation whatsoever in the cases presented. And I already have refuted very strongly this misconception in the first post. I proved that Firefly's script is more extensive than she let on and that Dahlia's script didn't have her in either. And we know she was employed by the Hunters. We also know that Nihility is extremely dangerous and since the Hunters protect the AE, they'd have gotten away from Acheron since they don't know what her intentions are and Nihility could harm the TB before it's time to be exposed to it. The fact that Elio warned neither of them only proves that he doesn't know of her whereabouts because he can't see her.

Unless you have anything actually new to add, let's not continue and just wait for others to read and make up their minds without bloating it again.

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

Nowadays, the past of the border planet Izumo can only be gleaned from the scattered whispers in the universe. Academics hold various views regarding its disappearance, but none can solve the mystery. Izumo's history should have been a long flowing river, but it was severed in one cut, and all its past and future voided on emptiness' other shore. Did it never exist, and was it no more than a fabricated story? Did its histories never occur, and it ran aground on the beach of reverse causation? Was it yet another appalling experiment by Dr. Primitive, or was it a sign of the Voracity returning from the end of the Cosmos?

Unfortunately, the world has long vanished from the astral charts. The truth of history eludes us, and the Remembrance no longer exists. When the Armed Archaeologists arrived, the galaxy resounded solely with the melody of the Enigmata: Dark Sun's tears, rain's boundless outpour. Beneath faint curtain, the survivor departs from her shore. Her homeland, once saved by her, now by her hands erased... Invisible shadows ahead, her vision encased."

My conclusion surrounding Izumo is that the planet was simply destroyed by Acheron.

• Remnants of Izumo's history still exist.
• Izumo was on the astral charts, vanishing after or during its destruction.

The scientist's confusion surrounding Izumo seems to be that they knew it existed at a point, but it was destroyed so quickly said scientists say it's like the planet was erased. Not actually being erased / having its causality wiped off of the map.

 

[Mbpoops]

Last response to you specifically. No point in arguing if you're not willing to understand. Imma kiss your forehead and let you go. This ain't going nowhere.

The fragments found were historical scrolls. They didn't uncover that information by venturing into its ruins.

So we agree on nuking history erasure?

Elegy.

Elaborate? Tho thats you last message

I am talking about memoria. Not the path of remembrance.

Same logic applies

Yes Acheron exists because she's acausal. And the fragments simply survived the ordeal as well.

She doesnt have to be acausal to exist. It could be that theres no history erasure and IX is just powernulling remembrance, nihility is usually unaffected by other paths so it wiuld make sense if nihility could conceal the remembrance (memories/history) of izumo (which is something we accept for nihility i believe)

They only know what was on the scrolls which can't be traced back to anything nor anyone because it's gone from the timeline and the causal framework.

Ur just using buzz words. They know it existed they just dont know what happened to izumo. Its a fragment of the full picture.

She does I linked scans.

Link then again im not looking for them

The scripts don't need to involve the AE. Silver Wolf specifically says that Kafkas script is real and she right now is in Penacony. The Ravager just discovered it and tried to use it against her. Idk what ur saying.

Could you explain how asat has kafka’s script if kafka has nothing to do with planarcadia? Maybe its because silverwolf gave her a false script

Frankly, your only defense against anything script related is that "they don't have the full script" which is pure speculation not supported by anything in this situation. I am not responding to those any more.

K!!!!!!!!!

I am implying that her blade can sever cause and effect.

Causality manipulation

She severed this concept existing on Izumo.

The concept of cause or the concept of effect?

Not to mention all she did was destroy izumo lol

Yes that was when Penacony ended and Black Swan convinced them to go there.

They fought irontomb on penacony..?

Not after they arrived. We spent more time on Penacony for the Grail and for Fugue, for Sunday and so on. Black Swan convincing them happened very early and they voted for it immediately after dealing with the EnaDay crisis.

But the myriad celest literally talks about it in the past tense meaning these would have happened if they chose a different destination but they’re about to fight irontomb so they’re on the right path

The video you linked doesn't prove anything. This also happened in the memories. It's called a recton.

Thwy literally go back to penacony in the video

Yes because both Fuli and Terminus are acausal like Acheron and Elio can't predict any of them. Where do you fail to see the connection?

Go read terminus’ page and tell me where the acausality is

Fuli, as ive said many times before, is a special case. You can learn why he has it by reading his page

Already been debunked that elio cant see acheron none of your points have debunked it

I asked if you had actual evidence and you're bringing up things already tackled by the first post. You have provided no scans, no strong arguments or anything. Your "strongest" argument and the one you keep emphasizing is the existence of the fragments which are scrolls that simply survived the catastrophy.

So its not history erasure

We have verbatim the game telling us that the planets which were once indexed in astral maps carried by people disappeared all of the sudden with the only way of them being remotely aware that it could've existed is because of some scrolls that account for its history. Mind you lots of people also believe its a fairytale which means it also disappeared as information and knowledge from their minds that it was a real place. You also have scans again VERBATIM saying the history of Izumo was severed in one cut. It's past and future gone and saying you dont believe its history EE after all.At this point, you are just egoing.

Nihility passive powernull

Your other argument on scripts is "They don't have the full scripts". No foundation whatsoever in the cases presented. And I already have refuted very strongly this misconception in the first post. I proved that Firefly's script is more extensive than she let on and that Dahlia's script didn't have her in either. And we know she was employed by the Hunters. We also know that Nihility is extremely dangerous and since the Hunters protect the AE, they'd have gotten away from Acheron since they don't know what her intentions are and Nihility could harm the TB before it's time to be exposed to it. The fact that Elio warned neither of them only proves that he doesn't know of her whereabouts because he can't see her.

Wait do you think the dahlia is a stellaron hunter? LMAO

Unless you have anything actually new to add, let's not continue and just wait for others to read and make up their minds without bloating it again.

Has our argument even had anything to do with type 4 because none of this at all has proven type 4 its just type 1 but because of the way the verse works we cant have type 1 in a conventional sense only in cases such as Fuli birthing themselves

If this is your last post then this is mine

 

[Mbpoops]

Also the entirety of 3.8 was a random script the dahlia found… guess who was in that script..

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Keep in mind Izumo existed for at least two thousand years before its destruction and it clearly had regular contact with outerstellar civilizations. If you're telling me that the entire universe (which is extremely and very highly advanced) forgot it existed and considers it a fairytale because it blew up in one day and not because it was erased from timeline and the collective minds of everyone, I can't take you seriously.

I am also not taking you seriously if you think history erasure means that history books are disintergrated

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Also, your assumption that other Paths can't affect Nihility is baseless and non-foundational. Acheron was affected by Ena's dream and was trapped in it. Arbitrators can kill Shadows of IX.

Lastly, you are strawmanning every single argument trying to get a "Gotcha!" moment. It's really tiring and not in good faith.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

The scientist's confusion surrounding Izumo seems to be that they knew it existed at a point, but it was destroyed so quickly said scientists say it's like the planet was erased. Not actually being erased / having its causality wiped off of the map.

I need you to read this very carefully.

Did it never exist, and was it no more than a fabricated story? Did its histories never occur, and it ran aground on the beach of reverse causation? Was it yet another appalling experiment by Dr. Primitive, or was it a sign of the Voracity returning from the end of the Cosmos?

Here it is CLEARLY said that even scientists DON'T KNOW IF IT ACTUALLY EXISTED and that it's possible that it was a fairytale because it was collectively erased from the Universe's memories. As in, informational, conceptual, space-time erasure that wiped it from even PHYSICAL OBJECTS that had it recorded and indexed such as the astral charts. The ONLY reason they are aware that this planet once existed is because of the surviving scrolls.

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

Here it is CLEARLY said that even scientists DON'T KNOW IF IT ACTUALLY EXISTED and that it's possible that it was a fairytale because it was collectively erased from the Universe's memories. As in, informational, conceptual, space-time erasure that wiped it from even PHYSICAL OBJECTS that had it recorded and indexed such as the astral charts. The ONLY reason they are aware that this planet once existed is because of the surviving scrolls.

You're misconstruing what I'm saying and even just ignoring evidence.

Unfortunately, the world has long vanished from the astral charts. The truth of history eludes us, and the Remembrance no longer exists.

• 'the world has long vanished from the astral charts.'
• 'Remembrance no longer exists.' (Cremators can do this. Not a stretch to say IX and Nihility would be able to do this too.)

Both these things imply a past where the Remembrance did exist. Where the world WAS on the astral charts. So they know it exists.

It was not 'collectively erased' - If it was the scrolls wouldn't exist.

The text more implies self-doubt and confusion: The scientists didn't detect the destruction of Izumo for one reason or another, like its destruction being too quick. They're doubting themselves, which is perfectly reasonable in lore. There's factions that seek to falsify things for the sake of doing it, and from what they know, they SHOULD be able to detect a planet being destroyed.

It even points to Dr Primitive and the Voracity, two massively unlikely options. There's no consensus because these scientists are simply confused and trying to make something from what little evidence they have.
(Izumo existed, now it is gone) - Their doubt is why they're not sure of Izumo actually existed.

Also, it seems odd you're trying to argue that information surrounding Izumo was 'collectively erased (informational, conceptual, spacetime erasure)' yet scrolls still exist speaking of Izumo.

 

[Mbpoops]

Yea ngl we might have to nuke history erasure

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

Yea ngl we might have to nuke history erasure

Was lowk thinking that earlier

 

[Mbpoops]

I am also not taking you seriously if you think history erasure means that history books are disintergrated

Yea ill just wait for staff..

this ability leaves absolutely nothing behind

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

You're misconstruing what I'm saying and even just ignoring evidence.

• 'the world has long vanished from the astral charts.'
• 'Remembrance no longer exists.' (Cremators can do this. Not a stretch to say IX and Nihility would be able to do this too.)

Both these things imply a past where the Remembrance did exist. Where the world WAS on the astral charts. So they know it exists.

It was not 'collectively erased' - If it was the scrolls wouldn't exist.

The text more implies self-doubt and confusion: The scientists didn't detect the destruction of Izumo for one reason or another, like its destruction being too quick. They're doubting themselves, which is perfectly reasonable in lore. There's factions that seek to falsify things for the sake of doing it, and from what they know, they SHOULD be able to detect a planet being destroyed.

It even points to Dr Primitive and the Voracity, two massively unlikely options. There's no consensus because these scientists are simply confused and trying to make something from what little evidence they have.
(Izumo existed, now it is gone) - Their doubt is why they're not sure of Izumo actually existed.

Also, it seems odd you're trying to argue that information surrounding Izumo was 'collectively erased (informational, conceptual, spacetime erasure)' yet scrolls still exist speaking of Izumo.

This ain't it.

You're conflating "remnants of information still exist" with "the historical continuity remains normally preserved." Those are not the same thing.

The argument was never that Izumo was erased so perfectly that no fragment or remnant could possibly survive. The point is that the world's continuity and remembrance were severed to an abnormal degree even by HSR standards. The surviving scrolls are explicitly treated as isolated fragments precisely because the broader historical framework tied to them no longer properly exists.

Additionally, the text goes much further than scientists merely lacking evidence. The issue is not simply "we couldn't detect the destruction in time." The narrative repeatedly emphasizes: the world vanished from the astral charts, the truth of its history cannot be properly reconstructed, and even Remembrance no longer remains associated with it normally.

In HSR, Remembrance is not just ordinary historical documentation. It is a metaphysical system tied to memory and preservation on a cosmic scale. The problem being described is not equivalent to archaeologists missing records of a destroyed planet. The setting explicitly treats Izumo as abnormally absent from the systems that should ordinarily preserve or contextualize erased worlds.

The Cremators comparison also does not work either. The Izumo case is portrayed on a much broader cosmological level involving Nihility itself. The point is not merely that some records were deleted, but that the world's continuity became so disconnected that surviving fragments are treated more like detached remnants of a fading myth than recoverable history.

And importantly, people do not confidently "know Izumo existed." The setting repeatedly frames it as uncertain, mythologized, and fragmentary to the point that its status as a real historical civilization is doubted. That is exactly why the surviving scrolls are significant in the first place: they are among the few remaining traces of something that has otherwise fallen out of normal remembrance and historical continuity. Yet, they do not know that either which is why some consider it a FAIRYTALE. They have found traces of something: they don't know where it belongs to, if it's real, when it happened, what happened or anything. All they have is a story in their hands describing the history of some random place and because of this SOME assume it must have been real. The destruction simply wiped it collectively.

So no, the existence of surviving scrolls does not refute the argument.

Izumo's history should have been a long flowing river, but it was severed in one cut, and all its past and future voided on emptiness' other shore.

Yea ill just wait for staff..

You should do that... and read this in the meantime: https://vsbattles.com/threads/history-as-a-fundamental-aspect-weve-gone-too-far.177409/

Keep in mind:

This ability's destructive power is not absolute

And that for starters, we don't even know WHERE they got the fragments and scrolls from since they can't even venture inside the Galaxy where the 2 planets were contained.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Another point that both of you completely ignore is that Izumo was not portrayed as an isolated, unknown civilization with no contact beyond its planet. It was a developed world with a recorded history spanning at least thousands of years and was included within astral charts, meaning it existed within the broader interstellar framework of the setting and was known enough to be catalogued cosmologically.

Under normal circumstances, the sudden destruction or disappearance of such a world would not simply pass unnoticed. A civilization with established historical continuity, external recognition, and placement within astral systems should leave behind widespread records, institutional memory, external communications, cultural references, and countless traces among other civilizations and organizations. Even if the planet itself were destroyed instantly, the information that it existed should still persist throughout the wider universe.

That is precisely why the narrative emphasis on confusion, uncertainty, mythologization, and absence from Remembrance is significant. The issue is not merely “scientists cannot find the planet anymore.” The strange aspect is that Izumo’s existence itself becomes uncertain and fragmentary despite the fact that it should have been deeply embedded within broader historical and cosmological knowledge systems.

This strongly suggests that what was lost was not only the physical planet, but the continuity and informational trace associated with it. Otherwise, the existence of Izumo as a civilization should remain straightforwardly acknowledged through the countless external records and memories expected from a world that had long existed within astral civilization and interstellar documentation.

The surviving scrolls therefore function as anomalous remnants persisting despite the larger collapse or severance of the world's historical and informational continuity.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Lastly, about the Summoning thing, if Castorice's thread passes that gives Generals 2-A for being able to summon Lux arrows, we'll have 3 types of Emanators being able to directly summon aspects of their respective Aeons. Qlipoth's Hammer and the Harmonic Strings being the others which are also said to be manifestations of Xipe. I don't see how summoning IX's Shadows is any different in this case.

 

[Mbpoops]

None of this has anything to do with type 4 acausality btw

Lastly, about the Summoning thing, if Castorice's thread passes that gives Generals 2-A for being able to summon Lux arrows, we'll have 3 types of Emanators being able to directly summon aspects of their respective Aeons. Qlipoth's Hammer and the Harmonic Strings being the others which are also said to be manifestations of Xipe. I don't see how summoning IX's Shadows is any different in this case.

maybe if we had actual proof we would grant them this but until that happens they shouldnt get this. We give this to generals and stonehearts because they are shown to do this but self annihilators are not shown to do this so no they dont get this until more info comes out

Theres only 2 types of emanators we currently accept like this and its the ones i just mentioned. Generals and stonehearts

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

None of this has anything to do with type 4 acausality btw

Yes it does... You are arguing that Info, conceptual, history and causal EE didn't happen at all which is where Type 4 comes from. So it clearly does.

maybe if we had actual proof we would grant them this but until that happens they shouldnt get this. We give this to generals and stonehearts because they are shown to do this but self annihilators are not shown to do this so no they dont get this until more info comes out

We do. We have Zephyro and other Self-Annihilators.

 

[Mbpoops]

Yes it does... You are arguing that Info, conceptual, history and causal EE didn't happen at all which is where Type 4 comes from. So it clearly does.

But EE doesnt cause type 4 acausality like at all history conceptual is there even a causal EE? Thats just EE hax it has nothing to do with this type of acausality.

We do. We have Zephyro and other Self-Annihilators.

Now can you show me a scan where it says zephyro summoned a shadow of IX? Or any self annihilator?

 

[Mbpoops]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/IX_(Honkai:_Star_Rail)?so=search#:~:text=Passive%20Void%20Manipulation%2C%20Existence%20Erasure%20(Space%2DTime%2C%20History%2C%20Memory%2C%20Information%E3%80%90Type%202%E3%80%91&%20Conceptual%E3%80%90Type%203%E3%80%91)%20&%20Causality%20Manipulation

Can you tell me where the causal erasure is?

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

But EE doesnt cause type 4 acausality like at all history conceptual is there even a causal EE? Thats just EE hax it has nothing to do with this type of acausality.

Now can you show me a scan where it says zephyro summoned a shadow of IX? Or any self annihilator?

Thanks for proving that you didn't read the thread.

As I mentioned in it already, the Type 4 comes from Acheron's causal manip from Naught striking Izumo.

I've already shown you 3. The memory bubble one, the Dr Primitive quote and Zephyro's white hole.

 

[Mbpoops]

Another point that both of you completely ignore is that Izumo was not portrayed as an isolated, unknown civilization with no contact beyond its planet. It was a developed world with a recorded history spanning at least thousands of years and was included within astral charts, meaning it existed within the broader interstellar framework of the setting and was known enough to be catalogued cosmologically.

Under normal circumstances, the sudden destruction or disappearance of such a world would not simply pass unnoticed. A civilization with established historical continuity, external recognition, and placement within astral systems should leave behind widespread records, institutional memory, external communications, cultural references, and countless traces among other civilizations and organizations. Even if the planet itself were destroyed instantly, the information that it existed should still persist throughout the wider universe.

That is precisely why the narrative emphasis on confusion, uncertainty, mythologization, and absence from Remembrance is significant.

The issue is not merely “scientists cannot find the planet anymore.” The strange aspect is that Izumo’s existence itself becomes uncertain and fragmentary despite the fact that it should have been deeply embedded within broader historical and cosmological knowledge systems.

This could easily be summed up to nihility not being affected by other paths and obscuring the history of Izumo. Hell nihility itself is said to be a mystery so it honestly could just be a nihility thing where it passively obscures history

This strongly suggests that what was lost was not only the physical planet, but the continuity and informational trace associated with it. Otherwise, the existence of Izumo as a civilization should remain straightforwardly acknowledged through the countless external records and memories expected from a world that had long existed within astral civilization and interstellar documentation.

They literally have records of it as shown in your OP how can the informational trace be gone if they have the records.

A point that was raised in the previous thread was this: "There's remnants of Izumo such as scrolls, theories and observations

The surviving scrolls therefore function as anomalous remnants persisting despite the larger collapse or severance of the world's historical and informational continuity.

If the history of the planet was erased then the scrolls would be erased because they are about the history of izumo

 

[Mbpoops]

Thanks for proving that you didn't read the thread.

As I mentioned in it already, the Type 4 comes from Acheron's causal manip from Naught striking Izumo.

Yes it does... You are arguing that Info, conceptual, history and causal EE didn't happen at all which is where Type 4 comes from. So it clearly does.

Dawg.

I've already shown you 3. The memory bubble one, the Dr Primitive quote and Zephyro's white hole.

so you have no actual proof. Because none of these actually confirm they summon IX shadows. You even admit yourself that not all black holes are IX shadows so whats stopping this black hole from just being a random black hole he made into a white hole?

yes that is true. not ALL black holes are shadows of ix. but zephyro's and the other self-annihilators' ARE. I literally linked you THIS that straight up says a LOT of black holes are IX's shadows.

Or better yet why would it even be from the nihility whats there to say he didnt get this when he turned to destruction by defying IX? Again none of these prove they summon them, all the evidence just compared their existence to a shadow of IX.

 

[Mbpoops]

I literally linked you THIS that straight up says a LOT of black holes are IX's shadows

Also coming back to this quote, this doesnt say that most black holes are IX shadows so for 1. You’d have to have explicit proof that zephyro’s white hole is a shadow of IX and 2. The thing doesnt say most black holed are IX shadows it just says that people ASSUME they are, and assume they hear IX guiding them so they aimlessly follow the path of nihility and die. Its just calling them dumbasses

The places where the space-time curvature are most extreme are suspected to be locations cast in the vast shadow of the Aeon of Nihility. However, as THEIR presence is shrouded in mist and mystery, there have been many a scholar who thought they have received revelations from the Aeon, causing them to leave all behind to seek Nihility's gloom without giving thought or concern to their own safety.

Also this supports my last point

This could easily be summed up to nihility not being affected by other paths and obscuring the history of Izumo. Hell nihility itself is said to be a mystery so it honestly could just be a nihility thing where it passively obscures history

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

We do. We have Zephyro and other Self-Annihilators.

It's different because:

1 - IX blatantly doesn't gaf, why would it, or even its shadows act.
2 - Assumptions regarding Zephyro's white holes being IX's Shadows are completely unsubstantiated with no evidence whatsoever.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

This could easily be summed up to nihility not being affected by other paths and obscuring the history of Izumo. Hell nihility itself is said to be a mystery so it honestly could just be a nihility thing where it passively obscures history

At this point you're introducing increasingly speculative explanations in order to avoid the more straightforward implication of the narrative.

Nothing in the text states that Nihility merely "passively obscures history". Nowhere in the game is there an implication of that.

Saying "if history was erased, the scrolls would vanish too" is based on an absolute interpretation of erasure that the story itself never establishes. Fiction constantly depicts cases where remnants, echoes, artifacts, or fragments persist after larger structures collapse. The point being argued is not "every atom of information was annihilated," but that the continuity linking Izumo coherently into the universe's historical and memorial framework was abnormally severed.

And importantly, the issue is not merely "a planet exploded." A civilization with millennia of history and interstellar recognition should have left behind overwhelming external memory, records, cultural traces, communications, and acknowledgment throughout the wider cosmos. Yet the narrative repeatedly emphasizes uncertainty surrounding its very existence. That is not adequately explained by "scientists are confused" alone.

So the more natural reading is not that everyone randomly forgot nothing happened while all continuity remained intact, but that Nihility caused an abnormal collapse or severance of the world's historical and informational continuity while leaving behind scattered remnants detached from a recoverable whole.

so you have no actual proof. Because none of these actually confirm they summon IX shadows. You even admit yourself that not all black holes are IX shadows so whats stopping this black hole from just being a random black hole he made into a white hole?

The confirmation is that self-annihilators use nihility's powers. If you are gonna tell me random pathstriders and emanators use other sort of powers gathered from God knows where and that they aren't drawn from their respective paths, we don't rly have anything to discuss.

Or better yet why would it even be from the nihility whats there to say he didnt get this when he turned to destruction by defying IX? Again none of these prove they summon them, all the evidence just compared their existence to a shadow of IX.

Because all Ravagers use their paths even if they want to destroy the aeons of the paths they have their powers from.

Also coming back to this quote, this doesnt say that most black holes are IX shadows so for 1. You’d have to have explicit proof that zephyro’s white hole is a shadow of IX and 2. The thing doesnt say most black holed are IX shadows it just says that people ASSUME they are, and assume they hear IX guiding them so they aimlessly follow the path of nihility and die. Its just calling them dumbasses

If anything it says that wherever space-time distortions occur, nihility is very likely to be there because it creates black holes. The proof that the white hole is the quote I linked saying it's a more refined black hole.

Also this supports my last point

Not really. All paths are mysterious and people know little of them. Nihility being one of them.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

It's different because:

1 - IX blatantly doesn't gaf, why would it, or even its shadows act.
2 - Assumptions regarding Zephyro's white holes being IX's Shadows are completely unsubstantiated with no evidence whatsoever.

Not really. You have the text saying they are refined black holes. black holes are shadows of ix. and thus white holes are a defiant version of shadows of ix.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

"refining fading colors into blinding white light to defy the shadow of the Aeon"
"leaving behind only a despairing white that engulfed both entropy and time"
"It is believed by scholars that places where the space-time curvature are most extreme are Shadows of IX"
"Self-Annihilators aimlessly traverse the cosmos, they also cast the shadow of the Aeon around the universe"
"Shadows of IX are called "great black suns""
"IX is a black hole"
"IX is called The Black Sun, Pitch-Black Great Sun, Dark Sun, Black Great Sun, The Darkened Sun"
"The "black sun" izumo was orbiting was a black hole but also a shadow of ix"

guys!! black holes aren't shadows of ix. white holes aren't literally black holes re-defined!!

 

[Mbpoops]

At this point you're introducing increasingly speculative explanations in order to avoid the more straightforward implication of the narrative.

This is literally what you’ve been doing this entire thread

Nothing in the text states that Nihility merely "passively obscures history". Nowhere in the game is there an implication of that.

Uhuh..

Uhuh..

Uhuh..

Saying "if history was erased, the scrolls would vanish too" is based on an absolute interpretation of erasure that the story itself never establishes.

So explain to me how a planet’s history can be erased but there are still scrolls that have information about the planet’s history?

Fiction constantly depicts cases where remnants, echoes, artifacts, or fragments persist after larger structures collapse. The point being argued is not "every atom of information was annihilated,"

Existence Erasure is the simple power to remove something from existence, leaving nothing behind, a level of destruction beyond incineration, vaporization, and atomization. Rather than just reducing something to its constituent parts, this ability leaves absolutely nothing behind. Powerful enough uses of this ability can even erase the mind and soul, if not more fundamental aspects of one's existence, such as concepts

So its not history erasure because if it was there would be no way to track its history. Getting real close to the “its fiction bro” argument

but that the continuity linking Izumo coherently into the universe's historical and memorial framework was abnormally severed.

Because it was abruptly destroyed. No one knows why except IX and parts of izumo’s past remains a mystery that can only be answered by IX yet he wont say anything because hes a bum. They cant place it down in a timeline because they only have bits and pieces of the history

And importantly, the issue is not merely "a planet exploded." A civilization with millennia of history and interstellar recognition should have left behind overwhelming external memory, records, cultural traces, communications, and acknowledgment throughout the wider cosmos. Yet the narrative repeatedly emphasizes uncertainty surrounding its very existence. That is not adequately explained by "scientists are confused" alone.

Plungin explained pretty well how this can be

So the more natural reading is not that everyone randomly forgot nothing happened while all continuity remained intact, but that Nihility caused an abnormal collapse or severance of the world's historical and informational continuity while leaving behind scattered remnants detached from a recoverable whole.

it obscured the history of izumo. It doesnt have to be history erasure for this to be true

The confirmation is that self-annihilators use nihility's powers. If you are gonna tell me random pathstriders and emanators use other sort of powers gathered from God knows where and that they aren't drawn from their respective paths, we don't rly have anything to discuss.

Ok and why does the power of nihility default to summoning IX shadows? Anyone who follows the path of nihility used the path’s powers so can random pathstriders summon IX shadows aswell? No. None of them can. Actually acheron explicitly has to travel to a shadow of IX at the horizon if existence

Because all Ravagers use their paths even if they want to destroy the aeons of the paths they have their powers from.

So what? They can use destruction as well. This doesnt answer my question

If anything it says that wherever space-time distortions occur, nihility is very likely to be there because it creates black holes. The proof that the white hole is the quote I linked saying it's a more refined black hole.

Id like to ask you to reread the quote because thats not what it says at all. Is merely an assumption

And again it could be ANY black hole it doesnt have to be a shadow of IX

Not really. All paths are mysterious and people know little of them. Nihility being one of them.

This is explicitly only a enigmata and nihility thing.

 

[Mbpoops]

"refining fading colors into blinding white light to defy the shadow of the Aeon"

he doesnt like IX so he creates the opposite of a black hole.

no one has seen the real IX so he'd make the opposite of IX's shadow because thats the closest thing to IX

The existence of Nihility is a mystery itself, THEIR form enshrouded by layers of mist.
IX doesn't interact with the other Aeons. THEY believe that the ultimate fate of the multiverse is nothingness, and therefore, worthless.

"leaving behind only a despairing white that engulfed both entropy and time"

so he creates a white hole...

+ 20 aura points for zephyro

"It is believed by scholars that places where the space-time curvature are most extreme are Shadows of IX"

not what the text says

The places where the space-time curvature are most extreme are suspected to be locations cast in the vast shadow of the Aeon of Nihility.

your quote implies that all black holes are shadows of IX. Of course no one can actually confirm whether or not a black hole is or isnt a shadow of IX but the fact that not all black holes are shadows of IX means that you need EXPLICIT proof of it being a shadow of IX such as the one at the horizon of existence

"Self-Annihilators aimlessly traverse the cosmos, they also cast the shadow of the Aeon around the universe"

just a comparrison.

"Shadows of IX are called "great black suns""

Sometime before the Sedition of Imbibitor Lunae, the Abundance Emanator Shuhu rallied a great army of the Denizens of Abundance to attack the Xianzhou Alliance. Baiheng, in her typical headstrong fashion, charged ahead and shattered the enemy's defenses, allowing the other Xianzhou soldiers to break through Shuhu's Sanguinary Abyss and awaken Dan Feng from his Dragon's Delirium. She sacrificed herself to save the lives of Jingliu, Dan Feng, and countless others on the battlefield, using a "sun" of absolute darkness that ground everything around it into the finest dust. She was dragged into a vortex of raw power, leaving only a tuft of her hair and a few drops of blood behind.

2-A BAIHENG?!?!?!?!?!?!?!???? SELF ANNIHILIATOR???

"IX is a black hole"

assumption. no one knows the real form of IX

"IX is called The Black Sun, Pitch-Black Great Sun, Dark Sun, Black Great Sun, The Darkened Sun"

can you send the scan again i forgot where it was but this is how IX is described on the wiki from the simulated universe picture

IX resembles a large purple blob with two white eyes, with a large collection of asteroids and planets being pulled towards THEM. What appears to be THEIR body is a swirling nebula of magenta and blue stars enveloped by a large purple gas.

"The "black sun" izumo was orbiting was a black hole but also a shadow of ix"

well we know this because its stated to be one. notice how it has proof that its a shadow of IX?

guys!! black holes aren't shadows of ix. white holes aren't literally black holes re-defined!!

....

no one is saying they arent, the problem is there also exists black holes that ARENT shadows of IX (dark zones, star of eden, normal ass black holes) you'd have to have proof that a black hole is a shadow of IX. zephyro's white hole falls under the same issue of not being confirmed to be one either.


also about that nihility passive powernull thing

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

Not really. You have the text saying they are refined black holes. black holes are shadows of ix. and thus white holes are a defiant version of shadows of ix.

So... all black holes are shadows of IX? This is also a massive leap of logic with no scans supporting this.

 

[Mbpoops]

So... all black holes are shadows of IX? This is also a massive leap of logic with no scans supporting this.